I was shopping jewelry stores, looking for crystalline or stone beads to make up a sab7ah (praying beads), when I chatted with the store owner whom I think was of an East European origin, he asked me if I were an Orthodox after I told him I needed 33 beads.
He told me that the Orthodox praying beads has 33 pieces.

The Muslim one also has 33 beads as most of the praying phrases are repeated multiples of 11 or 33 and 99 for the names of Allah.

Then I found out that the Orthodox use 33 after the number of years the Christ was alive. Then I also found out that Sikh use a wool thread with 33 knots.

Is it a coincidence or was it originally started by one religion and then was used by others for convenience?

I just find it interesting and has something to learn so here I am sharing it with you.


http://www.catnaps.org/islamic/islamimages/misbah.jpg

I think number doesn't matter really, you can say how many times you want.

But also some people do count because they use their fingers, 3 points per fingure.

I once heared that the "sab7a" was used from christians. Yes, we are asked to repeat Allah's name for certain no. of time but using sab7a is a christian thing.

I once heared that the "sab7a" was used from christians. Yes, we are asked to repeat Allah's name for certain no. of time but using sab7a is a christian thing.

Thanks AP! I never knew about that!

Interesting! Never knew that before... Subhan Allah, Jeff our religions are very smiliar after all :)

:p I never said they weren't similar! If they weren't so similar, they wouldn't be so different! :p

But don't get too excited. Here's a rosary:

http://www.rosaryworkshop.com/MU-21c-RangerRosary.jpg

And really, this is just what most laypeople use as a rosary, but it's only 1/3 of a Rosary. Here's the full version:

http://www.rosaryandchaplets.com/rosaries/15_decade_rosry/15_decade_july.jpeg

I don't know much about the Orthodox prayer beads or where they actually came from. The full Rosary has 150 Hail Marys which match the 150 psalms that monks say in the monastery. And before each set of 10, an Our Father; after each set of ten a Glory Be.

On the Crucifix, we say an Apostle's Creed. After the Rosary, we say a Memorare or a Salve Regina.

But the basic idea of using beads to pray is certainly universal or practically so.

Very intersting...

I am seriously thinking to start collecting prayer beads!

The Sunnah in Islam is to use the right hand for "tasbeeh" not the beads or anything else.

I am also surprised to see some muslims using small counters with numbers in it , and they keep flicking the counters in masjed and disturb the people with their nonsense!!!

what sort of "Bedaa's" innovations are these!!!

Very intersting...

I am seriously thinking to start collecting prayer beads!

What good deeds you will gain by doing that?

What good deeds you will gain by doing that?

Why? is it haram?

And why are the beads bida’?

The minaret on mosques is bida’a then because the Christian started it first…neither the prophet nor any of the companions had minarets on mosques.

And why are the beads bida’?


that's why:



Shaykh Muhammad Naasir al-Deen al-Albaani said in Al-Silsilat al-Da’eefah (1/110), where he quotes the (weak) hadeeth “What a good reminder is the subhah [masbahah],”

“In my view, the meaning of this hadeeth is invalid for a number of reasons:

Firstly, the subhah [masbahah] is bid’ah and was not known at the time of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). It happened after that, so how could he (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) have encouraged his Sahaabah to do something that was unknown to them? The evidence for what I have said is the report narrated by Ibn Waddaah in Al-Bid’ wa’l-Nahy ‘anhaa from al-Salt ibn Bahraam, who said: ‘Ibn Mas’ood passed by a woman who had a [masbahah] with which she was making tasbeeh, and he broke it and threw it aside, then he passed by a man who was making tasbeeh with pebbles, and he kicked him then said, “You think you are better than the Sahaabah, but you are following unjustified bid’ah! You think you have more knowledge than the Companions of Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him)!”’ Its isnaad is saheeh to al-Salt, who is one of the trustworthy (thiqah) followers of the Taabi’een.

Secondly, it goes against the guidance of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). ‘Abd-Allaah ibn ‘Amr said, ‘I saw the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) counting the tasbeeh on his right hand.’”

He also said (1/117): “If there is only one bad thing about the masbahah, which it is that it takes the place of the Sunnah of counting on the fingers, even though all are agreed that counting on the fingers is preferable, then that is bad enough. How rarely I see people counting their tasbeeh on their fingers!

Moreover, people have invented so many sophisticated ways of following this bid’ah, so you see the followers of one of the [Sufi] tareeqahs wearing the masbahah around their necks! Or some of them counting with the beads whilst talking or listening to you! Or another one – the like of whom I have not seen for some time – riding his bicycle through a street crowded with people, with the masbahah in one of his hands! They are showing the people that they are not distracted from the remembrance of Allaah for even an instant, but in many cases this bid’ah is a cause of their neglecting what is obligatory (waajib). It has happened many times – to others as well as myself – that when I greet one of these people with salaam, they answer only by waving and not by saying the words of the greeting. The bad results of this bid’ah are innumerable.

Senior you didnt answer my question....
If your shiekh said Bidaa I will bring another 10 saying it is not...
what makes beads different from Minarets...?

I think minarets are supposed to be bidaa too accoring to these guys...

God everything is bid3a those days!!

Clouds, the counter is like the car ! .. yes the prophet used to use horses and camels to travel but today we have an easier way. He used his hands while he repeats Allah's name people are using counters so they could remmber. simple as that!

this is very interesting! i never knew about this before.
thanx for sharing Pygmalion. =)

I remember an Iraqi telling a story about some "Islamic warrior" coming around to his food stand and telling the market operator he couldn't sell falafel because there was no falafel in the time of the Prophet.

The seller said, "I thought of telling him that there were no Kalashnikovs in the time of the Prophet either, but I wanted to keep my life..."

good point Arby, so how come cars aren't bidaa?

Maybe these guys will decide they are and start walking everywhere....

The Sunnah in Islam is to use the right hand for "tasbeeh" not the beads or anything else.

I am also surprised to see some muslims using small counters with numbers in it , and they keep flicking the counters in masjed and disturb the people with their nonsense!!!

what sort of "Bedaa's" innovations are these!!!
If everything is a bed3a, then isn't it easier to just do like the Amish? We could all live in peace and harmony with the desert, and reject anything that might improve our living standards and performance (including felafels :XD: ). :rolleyes:

All roads lead to Rome. As long as you do your tasbee7, I don't think it really matters HOW you do it. If the sib7a/rosary facilitates the process, then so be it!

Thanks for sharing Pygmalion. Fascinating indeed!

This story was back in 2000, I was in a mosque in USA when a member of Tabligh group gave a speech after the prayer…he first urged people not to rush to the worldly matters, as he put it, and urged everybody to stay and listen to him for 5 minutes, it was embarrassing to leave after what he had said and so almost everybody stayed. Then during the talk, a student suggested the speaker a productive idea…he suggested him to record their speeches and distribute them on tapes that could be circulated among a big number of people for long time…the speaker replied “But the prophet never did that.”…everybody was shocked and walked off…

They think it is bida’ to call somebody before you visit him...the sunnah is to knock at the door three times and leave if unanswered. So their visits are always unannounced…which is so rude and inconsiderate! Wallah it is shame!

I get the feeling--all this is partly new to me--that there is a Renaissance of Islamic theology in response to the sort of hyper-literalism of this school.

If you don't find the right principles and emphases, you DO end up knocking on people's doors instead of calling and even in it's most degenerate form wondering if falafel is bida.

I think the hyper-literalists are afraid of asking questions and they try to fend them off for fear that they will lose their hold on the truth and it will dissolve in their hands. And, really, I sympathize. One can see how they feel that way. But it ends up as a dead end.

I salute you all and wish you blessings in your attempts. It's not only important for you, it's important for the rest of us too.

Senior you didnt answer my question....
If your shiekh said Bidaa I will bring another 10 saying it is not...
what makes beads different from Minarets...?

My "Sheikh" gave evidence from the Sunnah that it's Bidaa, the great companion of the Prophet:PBUH: pbuh Ibn Masoud when he saw someone using beads for tasbeeh he disapproved it and broke the beads, and said our Prophet:PBUH: pbuh did not use beads or pebbles though it was present in his time, he used his hand only.

isn't that enough proof for you that beads is bidaa? or may be you and your sheikhs know better than Ibn Masoud!!!

what make beads different from Minarets?

what a silly question!!

You need to know the proper definition of bidaa first my friend

I will try to explain it with my poor English

Bidaa or innovation is anything innovated by individuals IN PRACTICING DEEN "religion" which was not done or approved by the Prophet:PBUH: pbuh, the Caliphas and the companions.


if you come a long and tell me I will do tasbeeh 105 times instead of 33, 33, 33 and 1 which is 100 then this is bidaa, cause you practiced things in deen which is not form the Sunnah.


so please stop saying silly things like Minarats or falafil or baba ghanoush we consider them bidaa's

My mom prays the rosary frequently. When my brother went to France last month he bought her rosary beads from the Norte Dame cathedral and it brought her to tears. She is a very religious woman. I have my own set. When I was a child I was given my first rosary and learned how to pray. We have a Catholic channel in the USA where nuns recite the rosary at the same time every evening.

Be right Back...

I don't believe it is Bid'aa, but there is something that should be cleared out.

If we see that other religions use prayer beads, does this make people see it as part of religion? Does it make prayer beads important? Does it make them think 'Oh, if the people of the book had prayer beads this explains why we use them too!' ?

If so, then this means they have misunderstood why the beads were not considered Bid'a.

It was not considered Bid'a because people KNEW they were only using these beads as a way to help them count how many times they say a certain Thikr.

Is it important Islamically to have prayer beads? No.
Does Islam encourage on having prayer beads? No.
Did scholars accept having prayer beads because other religions had them too? No.

Sure, there are many hadeeths saying that uttering a certain thikr for a certain number of times leads to a certain reward Example: Reading Surat Al Ikhlaas 10 times.

But can't that be done with our own fingers?


Of course if a person finds it easier to have beads to say Thikr, then scholars accept that. But only if the intention was helping on saying Thikr.

Not because the people of the book had the same idea.

My "Sheikh" gave evidence from the Sunnah that it's Bidaa, the great companion of the Prophet:PBUH: pbuh Ibn Masoud when he saw someone using beads for tasbeeh he disapproved it and broke the beads, and said our Prophet:PBUH: pbuh did not use beads or pebbles though it was present in his time, he used his hand only.

isn't that enough proof for you that beads is bidaa? or may be you and your sheikhs know better than Ibn Masoud!!!


There is a hadith by Sa’ad bin Abi Waqqas mentioning the prophet PBUP when he saw a woman doing tasbeeh with small stones and date seeds. And he also saw his wife Safyah using seeds for tasbeeh. Who knows better your shieks or Saad bin Abi Waqqas and Safyah?
It is encouraged to use the fingers but Sabha is not haram or Bidaa unless the Wahabi version is a better Islam.

Bidaa or innovation is anything innovated by individuals IN PRACTICING DEEN "religion" which was not done or approved by the Prophet:PBUH: pbuh, the Caliphas and the companions.




How about reciting Quran in the mosque over microphones? The prophet didn’t use that.
How about using taps when performing ablution…I don’t think the prophet had a tap.
How about the praying rug? The prophet didn’t have that.
How about reading Quran from printed material instead of hand-written ones? The prophet never printed Quran?

Your definition is cloudy!

How about reciting Quran in the mosque over microphones? The prophet didn’t use that.!

yes this is bidaa, why the prophet:PBUH: pbuh did not order Bilal to stand at the roof of the masjid and recite Quran as loud as he can?

How about using taps when performing ablution…I don’t think the prophet had a tap.

ok, now you are going to the extreme of things read my definition of bidaa again

How about the praying rug? The prophet didn’t have that.

The Prohet:PBUH: pbuh did have rugs in his house but different from the ones we see now, they were plain rugs with no pictures on them and he did prayed on them sometimes at home but not in his masjid.

How about reading Quran from printed material instead of hand-written ones? The prophet never printed Quran?

are you testing my IQ again? there were no printing press that time:)

I see Sheikhs walking with a mesbah in their hand. :bored:

It's not a bida'a. :bored::bored:

yes this is bidaa, why the prophet:PBUH: pbuh did not order Bilal to stand at the roof of the masjid and recite Quran as loud as he can?

so the mic is beda'a?

ok, now you are going to the extreme of things read my definition of bidaa again

Why...why does it contradict with your definition? Ablution is ibadah too...?


By the way...you didnt reply to my post on the Hadiths?


....do you know what clouds... I saw Saudi salafis who argued like crazy on face cover...but guess what...when they go to the nearby city...their wives take off the cover...why? because they know no Saudi in that city to see them!

the nonsense will remain nonsense...deep in the heart! You may equivocate hadiths and verses and translate them your way with 100's of excuses but deep inside the self...it's still nonsense! so this is all nonsense!

There is a hadith by Sa’ad bin Abi Waqqas mentioning the prophet PBUP when he saw a woman doing tasbeeh with small stones and date seeds. And he also saw his wife Safyah using seeds for tasbeeh. Who knows better your shieks or Saad bin Abi Waqqas and Safyah?
It is encouraged to use the fingers but Sabha is not haram or Bidaa unless the Wahabi version is a better Islam.

show me that hadith, and I will approve then that beads are not bidaa, IF the hadith is AUTHENTIC.

why you put "Wahabi" into this, there is no such things as Wahabis put this into your mind, and don't listen to all what your extrimist sheiks tell you.

the so called Wahabis are hanbali Sunna, got it.

1} فعن صَفِيَّةَ بنت حيي رضي الله عنها قالت : دَخَلَ عَلَىَّ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم وَبَيْنَ يَدَيَّ أَرْبَعَةُ آلاَفِ نَوَاةٍ أُسَبِّحُ بِهَا ، فَقُلْتُ : لَقَدْ سَبَّحْتُ بِهَذِهِ ، فَقَالَ : « أَلاَ أُعَلِّمُكِ بِأَكْثَرَ مِمَّا سَبَّحْتِ بِهِ » فَقُلْتُ : بَلَى عَلِّمْنِي ، فَقَالَ : « قُولِي : سُبْحَانَ اللَّهِ عَدَدَ خَلْقِهِ » .أخرجه الترمذي وصححه الحاكم ووافقه الذهبي .

{2}وعن سعد بن أبي وقاص رضي الله عنه أنه دخل مع النبي صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم عَلَى امْرَأَةٍ وَبَيْنَ يَدَيْهَا نَوًى أَوْ حَصًى تُسَبِّحُ بِهِ فَقَالَ : « أُخْبِرُكِ بِمَا هُوَ أَيْسَرُ عَلَيْكِ مِنْ هَذَا أَوْ أَفْضَلُ ؟ قولي : سُبْحَانَ اللَّهِ عَدَدَ مَا خَلَقَ فِي السَّمَاءِ ، وَسُبْحَانَ اللَّهِ عَدَدَ مَا خَلَقَ فِي الأَرْضِ ، وَسُبْحَانَ اللَّهِ عَدَدَ مَا بَيْنَ ذَلِكَ ، وَسُبْحَانَ اللَّهِ عَدَدَ مَا هُوَ خَالِقٌ ، وَاللَّهُ أَكْبَرُ مِثْلَ ذَلِكَ ، وَالْحَمْدُ لِلَّهِ مِثْلَ ذَلِكَ ، وَلاَ إِلَهَ إِلاَّ اللَّهُ مِثْلُ ذَلِكَ ، وَلاَ حَوْلَ وَلاَ قُوَّةَ إِلاَّ بِاللَّهِ مِثْلَ ذَلِكَ » أخرجه أبو داود والترمذي وحسنه والنسائي وابن ماجه وصححه ابن حبان والحاكم .

{3} وعن القاسم بن عبد الرحمن قال : كانَ لأبي الدَّرْدَاءِ نَوًى مِنْ نَوَى الْعَجْوَةِ في كِيسٍ ، فَكَانَ إِذَا صَلَّى الْغَدَاةَ أَخْرَجَهُنَّ وَاحِدةً يُسَبِّحُ بِهِنَّ حَتَّى يَنْفَدْنَ . أخرجه أحمد في الزهد بسند صحيح .

{4} وعَنْ أَبِى نَضْرَةَ الغفاري قال : حَدَّثَنِي شَيْخٌ مِنْ طُفَاوَةَ قَالَ : تَثَوَّيْتُ أَبَا هُرَيْرَةَ بِالْمَدِينَةِ ، فَلَمْ أَرَ رَجُلاً مِنْ أَصْحَابِ النَّبِيِّ صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم أَشَدَّ تَشْمِيرًا وَلاَ أَقْوَمَ عَلَى ضَيْفٍ مِنْهُ ، فَبَيْنَمَا أَنَا عِنْدَهُ يَوْمًا وَهُوَ عَلَى سَرِيرٍ لَهُ وَمَعَهُ كِيسٌ فِيهِ حَصًى أَوْ نَوًى وَأَسْفَلُ مِنْهُ جَارِيَةٌ لَهُ سَوْدَاءُ وَهُوَ يُسَبِّحُ بِهَا ، حَتَّى إِذَا أَنْفَدَ مَا فِي الْكِيسِ أَلْقَاهُ إِلَيْهَا فَجَمَعَتْهُ فَأَعَادَتْهُ فِي الْكِيسِ فَدَفَعَتْهُ إِلَيْهِ . أخرجه أبو داود والترمذي وحسنه والنسائي .

{5} وعن نعيم بن المحرر بن أبي هريرة عن جده أبي هريرة رضي الله عنه أنه كان له خَيْطٌ فِيه أَلْفَا عُقْدَةٍ ، فَلاَ يَنَامُ حَتَّى يُسَبِّحَ بِهِ . أخرجه عبد الله بن الإمام أحمد في زوائد الزهد وأبو نعيم في الحلية .


I heard Wahabia from Sunni Hanbalis and other Sunnis so talk to them, you need links on that? My shiekhs didnt say that and they are not extremist since they done call others kafirs. so I dont know who is the extremist!

Wahabis = People who follow the teachings of Ibn abd-ul Wahab...Who himself was a follower of Ibn Taymiyya...

A very informative thread! Thanks for sharing Pygmalion :)

I don't mean to take sides here, nor do I want to seem to be biased in my views, however it seems like Pygmalion is winning the bida'a argument. He's brought up several good points.

67529 - عن صفية أن النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم دخل عليها وبين يديها أربعة آلاف نواة تسبح بهن فقال : ألا أعلمك بأكثر مما سبحت به ؟ فقالت : بلى ، علمني . فقال : قولي : سبحان الله عدد خلقه . وقال الحاكم : قولي : سبحان الله عدد ما خلق من شيء
الراوي: صفية بنت حيي - خلاصة الدرجة: ضعيف - المحدث: الألباني - المصدر: ضعيف الترغيب - الصفحة أو الرقم: 960


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27567 - أنه دخل مع رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم على امرأة وبين يديها نواة ، - أو قال : حصاة تسبح بها – فقال : ألا أخبرك بما هو أيسر عليك من هذا وأفضل ؟ سبحان الله عدد ما خلق في السماء ، وسبحان الله عدد ما خلق في الأرض ، وسبحان الله عدد ما بين ذلك ، وسبحان الله عدد ما هو خالق ، والله أكبر مثل ذلك ، والحمد لله مثل ذلك ، ولا حول ولا قوة إلا بالله مثل ذلك
الراوي: سعد بن أبي وقاص - خلاصة الدرجة: منكر - المحدث: الألباني - المصدر: ضعيف الترمذي - الصفحة أو الرقم: 3568


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33391 - دخل علي رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم ، وبين يدي أربعة آلاف نواة أسبح بها . قلت : لقد سبحت بهذه ، فقال : ألا أعلمك بأكثر مما سبحت به . فقلت : بلى علمني ، فقال : قولي : سبحان الله عدد خلقه
الراوي: صفية - خلاصة الدرجة: منكر - المحدث: الألباني - المصدر: ضعيف الترمذي - الصفحة أو الرقم: 3554


7202 - دخل علي رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم ، وبين يدي أربعة آلاف نواة أسبح بها . قلت : لقد سبحت بهذه ، فقال : ألا أعلمك بأكثر مما سبحت به . فقلت : بلى علمني ، فقال : قولي : سبحان الله عدد خلقه
الراوي: صفية بنت حيي - خلاصة الدرجة: غريب وليس إسناده بمعروف - المحدث: الترمذي - المصدر: سنن الترمذي - الصفحة أو الرقم: 3554


the hadiths you quoted are either weak, or munkar, or gharib "strange"!!!

where is your Sahih authentic hadiths?

I think I will stick with the Ibn Masood thanks

no need to argue just for the sake of arguement

did our Prophet:PBUH: pbuh use beads for Tasbeeh? NO

did the Caliphas(ra) use beads for tasbeeh? NO

did the Companions use beads for tasbeeh? NO

so either you follow the sunnah of the Prohet:PBUH: pbuh or you innovate in Islam the choice is yours.

What do you do when you have to deal with a 'real' issue ?

What's the difference between asking did you use beads and did you not use beads

and asking did you make marks on a piece of paper or did you not?
or

did you sit in a warm room where you could concentrate or a cold one where you couldn't?

Isn't there anything that's okay? or good for some people? or possibly helpful? in Islam?

or is everything just bidaa and not bidaa?

Isn’t this Albani you quoted was the guy asked by King Faissal to leave KSA for good… any ways …he degraded authentic hadiths to “good” and lower….
The rest of the Muslim scholars have a different view on this and I don’t see why I follow one and skip the majority… I can quote 50 scolars accepting the hadith....

What kind of common premises would you use when you argue with a person like this?

I just put “ruling of Sabha” on Google and tons of Muftis have no problem with it except Wahabis?

I told you that ablution is a form of worshipping “3ibadat”, why are we using taps? Look how you answered it.

Sabha is bidaa and face cover is a must…I see the face cover is bidaa.. neither prophet’s wives nor his companions wear it…

I am not into dead-end arguments

I never used bead, but I like the way they look. Yes, it is taken from Christianity's rosary. If it's a Bidaa (innovation) BECAUSE we will be copying Christians then its not a valid excuse and it's a Bid`aa hasana (a good innovation).
Nothing is wrong when a Muslim uses a christian instrument/item to pray for God.