Vatican defends 'right and duty' to convert members of other faiths (http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/show/158816.html)

Vatican City, - The Vatican on Friday defended the "right and duty" of Catholics to do missionary work aimed at converting people from other religions and other Christian denominations.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Vatican Defends Right to Spread Message (http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5hACVKpiW4j0AtJIwlpmfvg1PsZrgD8TH8KD80)

The Vatican, which has been accused of aggressively seeking souls in Russia and some other countries, said Friday it has every right to spread its message and accept converts but that non-Catholics must never be forced to embrace the faith.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Why shall a non Catholic become a Catholic?

If a person chooses to convert that is a personal choice. I have a co-worker who was baptist convert to catholicism more than 20 years ago and never waivered. Still a Catholic. Everyone has a right to change if he or she feels that the path they are on is not true. Just like some Muslims here want Christians to convert to Islam because they feel Islam is the right and true path...same goes for the Catholics.

Is it surprising?

Isn't this like having a headline that says:

Muslim believe in Deen!

"Muslims shocked the globe today by declaring that hope to influence all people to become Muslim.

"'Yes, we believe that Islam is the the true and perfect religion and in order to find peace and beauty and be rewarded with paradise all men should embrace it,' declared a panel of muftis and imams today to the stunned surprise of the entire earth."

This is just more media hype.

We don't have any organized projects to convert Muslims or Protestants for a variety of reasons. Our organized missionary efforts are aimed at people of no religion and at people of non-monotheistic faiths, such as pagans in Africa, etc. And we respect the laws and sensibilities of the countries we work and live in.

But why anyone should be shocked that we encourage people to become Catholics is beyond me. We can't hide the Faith from people or pretend that we don't care about it.

This is really an in-house paper directed to some Catholics who since the 1960s have become confused about the fullness of Catholic Truth, that's all. Since the 1960s, we have concentrated on developing common themes and understanding with those with whom we share a great deal in common.

But just as Muslims believe that humanity should be Muslim, we testify that God wills all men to be united in Christ's Holy Catholic Church.

It's almost like being amazed to find out that the Pope is Catholic !

Imagine the horror !

It's almost like being amazed to find out that the Pope is Catholic !

Imagine the horror !

Surely things haven't come to that? :omg:

Ooh the Assemblies of God crowd have competition :)

What I find strange is "aggressively seeking souls in Russia". Aren't the majority of Russians Eastern Orthodox?

Oh, the Orthodox are just super sensitive.

Under the communists, our church structure was destroyed. After communism went, we re-established it, with bishops, etc.

And people whose families had been Catholic before communism or had kept their faith started going to the churches. And maybe a tiny number of Orthodox...

So, they started complaining: You are poaching!

But they have bishops in Western Europe and whoever wants to, goes.

The Vatican on Friday defended the "right and duty" of Catholics to do missionary work aimed at converting people from other religions and other Christian denominations.

What does the Bible says about it?

It says we should work hard to bring people like you back to the right path.

Interesting.

Can you quote the verse?

How come you are not a proud kafir anymore?

So the Pope wants the non Catholics to embrace Catholicism, what's their fate if they don't?

We don't have any organized projects to convert Muslims or Protestants for a variety of reasons. Our organized missionary efforts are aimed at people of no religion and at people of non-monotheistic faiths, such as pagans in Africa, etc. And we respect the laws and sensibilities of the countries we work and live in.

I disagree jeff, in Jordan (which has almost 90% muslims and 10% christians) I found a korean missionary, I didn't ask what his scope was or what exactly was he doing there, but it is mainly to spread christianity, he is the same guy who told me where to buy translated Bible :yes:

I didn't mean that no individual Christians evangelize in Muslim countries.

I meant that there is no 1. ORGANIZED 2. CATHOLIC attempt to evangelize Muslim countries. The "we" applied to Catholics, not Christians in general.

Missionaries do not necessarily evangelize. Many of them simply provide help to the poor or assist local Christians. There are Catholic missionaries who work even in Muslim Brotherhood areas in Egypt, for example. They wouldn't survive if they were seeking converts. ;)

Good to see you back, btw :)

Jeff, you didn't answer me, what's the fate of the non Catholics if they don't embrace Catholicism?

I didn't mean that no individual Christians evangelize in Muslim countries.

I meant that there is no 1. ORGANIZED 2. CATHOLIC attempt to evangelize Muslim countries. The "we" applied to Catholics, not Christians in general.

Missionaries do not necessarily evangelize. Many of them simply provide help to the poor or assist local Christians. There are Catholic missionaries who work even in Muslim Brotherhood areas in Egypt, for example. They wouldn't survive if they were seeking converts. ;)

Good to see you back, btw :)

In the past there were some attempts to convert Omani people by Christain missonaries, they have opened a hospital also. But they failed, I guess Omani people are not that easy to be misled. :)

Coverting others is in all religions. The Ottomons (just one example besides we naughty Christians who try to convert others) were no saints in that regard. The Spanish who were taken over by the Moors remained predominately Catholic....and not easily "misled"....Compulsion by blood at the end of the sword can be found in all faiths in this world.

I think they should be worried keep their current members instead of converting others.

May Allah show all Christians the right path :)

Jeff, you didn't answer me, what's the fate of the non Catholics if they don't embrace Catholicism?

The "fate"?

I guess it depends.

What is, according to you, the fate of those who don't accept Islam?

Take your answer and turn it around. Adjust for degree of personal responsibilty. And you have your answer.

But I don't know the fate of particular individuals. That is in the hands of God.

But let's be more serious for a moment. Please pray for me. And I will pray for you. And may God bless us all.

I think they should be worried keep their current members instead of converting others.

May Allah show all Christians the right path :)

Thank you for your wishes. I am glad that you want me to be a Muslim since you believe that it is the Truth. Your feeling is not predatory is it? You want the best for me, isn't that right? I know your heart and I know you do.

So, remember that the feeling can be the same among those who see things differently.

I certainly am not a worrier about these matters! :p

We Catholics have seen ups and downs in the past, but the general trend over time is always up.

At the time of the Protestant Reformation, we lost 5 million. But at the same time, we gained 9 million in Mexico in the course of just a few decades.

We have vast numbers of converts today in places like Korea, Vietnam and in many areas of Africa. We are very busy, my friend!

I suggest we all just do the best we can to love and respect each other and do what we believe we are called to do. And trust always to Allah, Who is, as you say, the Great Enlightenener.

Nice to hear from you again, btw! :)

People are so quick to point fingers at one another and think their religion is the true path. Fine believe it but don't try to make someone change their minds when they are pretty strong in their faith within the heart and soul. Many people who are steadfast in their beliefs (such as over a billion Catholics worldwide) will NOT change and I for one do not think I am being.......misled...............

The Roman Catholic Church - the largest branch of Christianity - says there are a total of 1.086 billion baptised members around the globe.

This figure is expected to exceed 1.1 billion in 2005, with rapid growth in Africa and Asia. However, there are no reliable figures for the number of practising Catholics worldwide.

The Americas have the lion's share of baptised Catholics, with 49.8% (approx 541 million); Europe accounts for 25.8% (approx 282 million); Africa has 13.2% of the total (approx 143 million); Asia - 10.4% (approx 113 million); Oceania - 0.8% (approx 9 million).

http://my.opera.com/catholics/blog/2007/01/18/roman-catholics-around-the-world

In the past there were some attempts to convert Omani people by Christain missonaries, they have opened a hospital also. But they failed, I guess Omani people are not that easy to be misled. :)

Well, there are always a few high profile exceptions:

On the morning of 30 May 1867 a young German businessman, Heinrich Ruete, arrived in Aden by sea from Zanzibar. That same morning in Christ Church, Steamer Point, he married Saline bint Sa’id who had been baptised in the name of Emily Sa’id Ruete immediately before the marriage service. In the afternoon the couple set sail for Hamburg with their infant son who had been born in Aden the previous December.

Saline hint Sa’id was the daughter of Sultan Sa’id bin Sultan, Ruler of Oman and Zanzibar

http://www.al-bab.com/bys/articles/shipman00.htm

There is no problem with any religion spreading its words…missionaries or whatever!

What is the use of the Vatican if it doesn’t support its word of which is to deliver it to people.

The objection is when missionaries of all religions buy people with money, I heard some of high profile people in Oman before 1970 converted to Christianity in exchange of financial support. Just like what Wahabis did in most of its areas of domination.

Just for the record, my comment is general for all religions/sects!

^^

Thank you, Pygmalion!

I always think that this is the simple solution in a world in which people are so mixed up together and getting more so:

Let everyone be free to preach and everyone be free to convert. This should be permissable in every country.

God will guard and guide and the Truth will emerge the strongest.

If the Muslims who believe that there is an unstoppable tide of conversion to Islam building in the world today are right, they should have nothing to worry about in the long run! :)

Let everyone be free to preach and everyone be free to convert. This should be permissable in every country.



No, not everyone should be free. In Muslim countries Christian messionaries should not be allowed.

And say: "Truth (i.e. Islâmic Monotheism or this Qur'ân or Jihâd against polytheists) has come and Bâtil (falsehood, i.e. Satan or polytheism) has vanished. Surely! Bâtil is ever bound to vanish."

On the other hand, Muslims have a duty to spread the truth to the whole world. And this is mentioned in many verses in the holy Quran:

Say (O Muhammad (peace be upon him)) "O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians): Come to a word that is just between us and you, that we worship none but Allâh (Alone), and that we associate no partners with Him, and that none of us shall take others as lords besides Allâh. Then, if they turn away, say: "Bear witness that we are Muslims."

Invite (mankind, O Muhammad (peace be upon him)) to the Way of your Lord (i.e. Islâm) with wisdom (i.e. with the Divine Revelation and the Qur'ân) and fair preaching, and argue with them in a way that is better. Truly, your Lord knows best who has gone astray from His Path, and He is the Best Aware of those who are guided.

And argue not with the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), unless it be in (a way) that is better (with good words and in good manner, inviting them to Islâmic Monotheism with His Verses), except with such of them as do wrong; and say (to them): "We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you; our Ilâh (God) and your Ilâh (God) is One (i.e. Allâh), and to Him we have submitted (as Muslims)."

You (true believers in Islâmic Monotheism, and real followers of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) and his Sunnah) are the best of peoples ever raised up for mankind; you enjoin Al-Ma'rûf (i.e. Islâmic Monotheism and all that Islâm has ordained) and forbid Al-Munkar (polytheism, disbelief and all that Islâm has forbidden), and you believe in Allâh. And had the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) believed, it would have been better for them; among them are some who have faith, but most of them are Al-Fâsiqûn (disobedient to Allâh - and rebellious against Allâh's Command).

People are so quick to point fingers at one another and think their religion is the true path. Fine believe it but don't try to make someone change their minds when they are pretty strong in their faith within the heart and soul. Many people who are steadfast in their beliefs (such as over a billion Catholics worldwide) will NOT change and I for one do not think I am being.......misled...............

Why you think you are not being misled if you know that the Bible was writen many years after Jesus death, the orignal message get corrupted.

[5:77] Say (O Muhammad (peace be upon him)) "O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Exceed not the limits in your religion (by believing in something) other than the truth, and do not follow the vain desires of people who went astray in times gone by, and who misled many, and strayed (themselves) from the Right Path."


The Roman Catholic Church - the largest branch of Christianity - says there are a total of 1.086 billion baptised members around the globe.

This figure is expected to exceed 1.1 billion in 2005, with rapid growth in Africa and Asia. However, there are no reliable figures for the number of practising Catholics worldwide.

The Americas have the lion's share of baptised Catholics, with 49.8% (approx 541 million); Europe accounts for 25.8% (approx 282 million); Africa has 13.2% of the total (approx 143 million); Asia - 10.4% (approx 113 million); Oceania - 0.8% (approx 9 million).

http://my.opera.com/catholics/blog/2007/01/18/roman-catholics-around-the-world

It's quality not quantity, the crime rate in the western world is also very high compared to the Muslim world, so is quantity a valid argument here?

Same thing, you will notice that Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world today, but what really matters is how true are these muslims, do they follow the teachings of the holy Quran and the Prophet pbuh sunnah or just muslims by name. Quality is more important compared to quantity.

HUMAN RIGHTS COUNCIL EXTENDS MANDATES OF EXPERTS ON INTERNALLY DISPLACED PERSONS, SUDAN AND FREEDOM OF RELIGION AND BELIEF (http://www.unog.ch/80256EDD006B9C2E/(httpNewsByYear_en)/BD4D66F1D821C8AEC12573B10047D7AB?OpenDocument)

In favour (29): Angola, Bolivia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Brazil, Canada, Cuba, France, Germany, Ghana, Guatemala, India, Italy, Japan, Madagascar, Mauritius, Mexico, Netherlands, Nicaragua, Peru, Philippines, Republic of Korea, Romania, Russian Federation, Slovenia, Switzerland, Ukraine, United Kingdom, Uruguay and Zambia.

Abstentions (18): Azerbaijan, Bangladesh, Cameroon, China, Djibouti, Egypt, Gabon, Indonesia, Jordan, Malaysia, Mali, Nigeria, Pakistan, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Senegal, South Africa and Sri Lanka.

ABDULLAH ABBAS RASHWAN (Saudi Arabia), speaking in explanation of the vote before the vote, commented that the draft resolution did not include certain essential points relating to certain religions. A resolution that went against the Sharia law could not be accepted by Saudi Arabia. Those who had submitted the resolution should consider the tenets of some religions that were not compatible with the existing text.


All OIC nations objected to this resolution. Saudi was the only one that was honest about at it. The others danced around the issue.

Wow.

It seems all the muslim countries are against freedom of religion.

They must not have a copy of the real Quran.

Vatican defends 'right and duty' to convert members of other faiths (http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/show/158816.html)

Vatican City, - The Vatican on Friday defended the "right and duty" of Catholics to do missionary work aimed at converting people from other religions and other Christian denominations.
-------------------------------------------------------------------[SIZE=2]
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Why shall a non Catholic become a Catholic?

Christian are doing this missionary work since long , nothing new.
About 60,000 Missionary are working around the world to convert other faith.
It is new to me that they are trying convert other Christian denominations. This may create confusion and problem. Peaceful harmony may be affected among them.
Your other link I have not yet checked.

It's quality not quantity, the crime rate in the western world is also very high compared to the Muslim world, so is quantity a valid argument here?


There are Muslims out there who brag about the quantity yet we see violence of Muslims against Muslim so where is the quality????

Again with the crime rate Ice Tea? Yes we have crime but no society is perfect and in places like Malyasia and Indonesia all is not perfect what with the sex and drug traffiking......................and with "Muslim" terrorists killing your fellow brothers and sisters in leaps and bounds I fail to see how everything is all peace and sunshine in the middle east. Pointing fingers at us and failing to see the sins in your own backyard is either being blind or naive................

Wow.

It seems all the muslim countries are against freedom of religion.

They must not have a copy of the real Quran.

Annoying , are you not doing the same thing in Muslim populated country?

Is it surprising?

Isn't this like having a headline that says:

Muslim believe in Deen!

"Muslims shocked the globe today by declaring that hope to influence all people to become Muslim.

"'Yes, we believe that Islam is the the true and perfect religion and in order to find peace and beauty and be rewarded with paradise all men should embrace it, '

Dear Friend,
Your post deserves analytical reply.
If I get time and scope shall appear before you .
(In between , hope your kid is out of danger and recovering )
Regarding the organized missionary efforts, I shall request you to check the data.
How wonderfully they preach , I shall narrate.
I must say it is lovely.
Now reply to your one word only highlighted in red.

"O you who believe, fear Allah and keep your duty to Him and always speak the truth."
Quran [33:69]

Please look bellow:

Say, “O People of the Scripture, come to a word that is equitable between us and you – that we will not worship except Allāh and not associate anything with Him and not take one another as lords instead of Allāh." But if they turn away, then say, "Bear witness that we are Muslims [submitting to Him]." Al-Ìmrán 3:64


Further more,
O mankind, indeed We have created you from male and female and made you peoples and tribes that you may know one another. Indeed, the most noble of you in the sight of Allāh is the most righteous of you. Indeed, Allāh is Knowing and Acquainted. 49:13



And Finally,

And say: "Truth has (now) arrived, and Falsehood perished: for Falsehood is (by its nature) bound to perish." 17:81

OK. When do we get the Analytical reply you promised ?

We have read these verses too many times for them to make a difference. Now we need some OPINION from you

Annoying , are you not doing the same thing in Muslim populated country?

Explain what you mean by that last comment please ?

In the unlikely event that anyone is interested in reading the ACTUAL DOCUMENT, rather than the slanted news report, it is now up on the Vatican website:

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20071203_nota-evangelizzazione_en.html

You will find it very mild indeed. :)

I think when we go through the sacrament of Confirmation part of that is defending one's faith in the Catholic church. Not sure if this is coupled with evangelizing. I don't believe in the latter. I will always defend my faith in a peaceful manner, and those who wish to hear about it I will readidly discuss but will not covertly go out and try to change people's minds and hearts about the way they believe in at present.

I would prefer to look at the similarities in religions, instead of differences.

True. Personally I get tired of attacks on religious beliefs...all it does is stir animosity.

In the unlikely event that anyone is interested in reading the ACTUAL DOCUMENT, rather than the slanted news report, it is now up on the Vatican website:

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20071203_nota-evangelizzazione_en.html

You will find it very mild indeed. :)
Nothing coming out of the Vatican is mild
The core of the document seems not whether to convert or not people but to what : not enough they enter Christianity but they must become Roman Catholic
I think is meant more for Europe : there are countries where often conversions are not put in place for political reasons, not to offend the local government
With this text, the Vatican is saying to priests and missionaries to proceed without fear

Mr Jeff .
Perhaps you could not read my mind regarding the word you used in your post "Muslims shocked the globe today by declaring that hope to influence all people to become Muslim.”

Let me try to narrate more clearly, highest increasing religion of the world having the highest misconception.
Is this not unfortunate?
And we are responsible, none else.

“ ." But if they turn away, then say, "Bear witness that we are Muslims [submitting to Him]." Al-Ìmrán 3:64


Under any circumstances, none can subjugate, force, bribe a non Muslim to embrace Islam, It is his or her will to revert. Please note the word “Revert” not converted. He/She will come back to original position. Islam says all people born as Muslim then different circumstances led them to different direction. It is all most , well come back home after a period.
So the word “Influence” , perhaps not appropriate.
Regards,

Okay, Mr. Shamsery:

But when you or Mr. Ice Tea explain to me the "truth" of the Quran and urge me to become a Muslim, to my non-Muslim eye it looks pretty much the same.

Witnessing the truth of your religion to the outsider and encouraging him to adhere to it and adopt its practices.

Perhaps it looks different from inside rather than outside. From outside, it looks the same.

Anyway, it doesn't bother me! I appreciate it.

Explain what you mean by that last comment please ?

Honestly don’t you have any idea how they run missionary work in Bangladesh, India and Pakistan?
This is not a counter question, I shall narrate, that will be good information for others too.

But when you or Mr. Ice Tea explain to me the "truth" of the Quran and urge me to become a Muslim, to my non-Muslim eye it looks pretty much the same.

Witnessing the truth of your religion to the outsider and encouraging him to adhere to it and adopt its practices.

You come to an Islamic environment, that's the minimum you can wait for
As far as I remember in Europe, Muslims dnt go door to door like Jeova people to convert others
Here in Mct for example they do the same you are doing in you parish there in America : poor Asian workers are not enough for their clutches, now they search also for Omani Muslims

Okay, Mr. Shamsery:

But when you or Mr. Ice Tea explain to me the "truth" of the Quran and urge me to become a Muslim, to my non-Muslim eye it looks pretty much the same.


Did I ?
Oh my God!!!

But I must wish, let you be a good human being with the real civic sense,

With universal moral values.

In between the line, surely I want; misconception about Islam should be removed.
Off topic post , you can delete it if you wish

OK. When do we get the Analytical reply you promised ?

We have read these verses too many times for them to make a difference. Now we need some OPINION from you

"O you who believe, fear Allah and keep your duty to Him and always speak the truth."
Quran [33:69]

Refer to post #3 of Mr Jeff , Surly , it will be discussed here from end. As I do not want spoil the modas operendi of this thread, I am opening a new thread, I well come you there.

You come to an Islamic environment, that's the minimum you can wait for
As far as I remember in Europe, Muslims dnt go door to door like Jeova people to convert others
Here in Mct for example they do the same you are doing in you parish there in America : poor Asian workers are not enough for their clutches, now they search also for Omani Muslims

What are we doing in my parish? :p I wish we were going door-to-door, but really we are just going to Mass.

Only if people are interested and seek us out do we teach them anything.

And that's the way most of the 160, 000 or so adult conversions to Catholicism per year in America occur...

Are you saying priests are going from door to door in Muscat seeking Muslim converts? :os

And that's the way most of the 160, 000 or so adult conversions to Catholicism per year in America occur...
The way you use the word most, in all your posts, makes me think that you have direct knowledge on the issue .
An average Christian wouldn't be so detailed on how deconverted Muslims or failed Christians think, nor would be so interested .
It seems you're very active with them .
Good for you, 24 hours in ES must be boring :p

Are you saying priests are going from door to door in Muscat seeking Muslim converts? :os
Not like that, I think is against the law .
But they know how to use "missionary positions" :p

Agreed...we don't have people knocking on doors in the Roman Catholic faith like the Jeovah's tellling us we are practicing in the wrong faith. We go to Mass as Jeff said. Never in the years have I been Catholic or practiced my faith have we been urged to go a'knocking on doors and get people to change their ways...nope...

We go to Mass as Jeff said. Never in the years have I been Catholic or practiced my faith have we been urged to go a'knocking on doors and get people to change their ways...nope...

Probably not you directly or in your parish they dnt need
There's no need to go around and knock : you can invite people in different ways
Is a job usually done by the priest and his collaborators

The way you use the word most, in all your posts, makes me think that you have direct knowledge on the issue .
An average Christian wouldn't be so detailed on how deconverted Muslims or failed Christians think, nor would be so interested .
It seems you're very active with them .
Good for you, 24 hours in ES must be boring :p


Not like that, I think is against the law .
But they know how to use "missionary positions" :p

No personal knowledge, just information from news stories and articles on the subject. It's not how they think, it's how they entered the catechumenate.

But I would like to hear the stories of Muslims who were approached by priests seeking conversion to Catholicism in Oman. Anyone want to share your story?

Anyone? Anyone? :p

Not Catholics, other subsects
There's no specific story : when they catch one in despair, they just invite them in the community

Probably not you directly or in your parish they dnt need
There's no need to go around and knock : you can invite people in different ways

If the case of compulsion comes in different forms I wonder how the Christians and non-Muslims in the Sudan feel about their own religious and ethnic cleansing in that country?? Would be quite interesting to learn more. I bring up the Sudan because I ask:

Is it true that Muslims are supposed to offer non-Muslims an opportunity to embrace Islam. If the non-Muslims refuse, the Muslim believes that the non-believer has commited aggression against Allah and Islam. Therefore, the Muslim is allowed to fight these aggressors against Allah and Islam until they become Muslims or are killed???

We talk about Roman Catholics becoming evangelists but doesn't the spreading of the word, whatever religion it might be include all??? I mean...Christianity is always singled out as being an agressor and propoganda initiater yet people fail to see the sins in their own religion....I see no compulsion to evangelize...that is not what I am about and there are plenty of Catholics out there who do not believe in this. Yet we get singled out as Christians and non-Christian religions are held up as being the peaceful and true path to God when we see evidence as being held otherwise in certain political and moral circumstances......

Now, I know not all Muslims are aggressors yet when Islam is slandered through violence why is it Islamic countries & true practicing Muslims don't stand up to this and dennounce such acts?? (WHY not get involved in organizations that dennounce violence like Amnesty International and other organizations that publically say: HELL yeah this is wrong.....)

Instead these countries and a great number of Muslims bury their head in the sand so to speak and nothing is done to politically or economically disengage with such terrorists and heathens.

If this is not the case then point out to me concrete circumstances where Islamic countries and Muslims have dennounced such propoganda against Islam done in the name of their religion. I for one am open in heart and mind to learn.

But I would like to hear the stories of Muslims who were approached by priests seeking conversion to Catholicism in Oman. Anyone want to share your story?

Anyone? Anyone? :p

Dear Jeff,
Apologize for the interruption.
Some time beginning of 18th century, you had a contradiction among Church and others.
Roman Catholics surmise them to Pope; Protestant belief Bible is the word of God.
Hope I am not wrong.
More over you have division among the Christians.
It would be nice if you or any of your friends narrate it.
Common people those who are not in your faith in border sense Christianity , they can not differentiate.
I shall tale you tells of Missionaries of Bangladesh, India , Pakistan and partially South Korea.
Hope to see you all around 25th .
I may come on net tomorrow for a little while.
You all stay well and carry on the intellectual judo.
Thanks to every body.

Is it true that Muslims are supposed to offer non-Muslims an opportunity to embrace Islam. If the non-Muslims refuse, the Muslim believes that the non-believer has commited aggression against Allah and Islam. Therefore, the Muslim is allowed to fight these aggressors against Allah and Islam until they become Muslims or are killed???
I assume you are speaking of verses that normally Bin Laden uses in that way
Personally I dnt see it like that

yet people fail to see the sins in their own religion....
Not sure you're speaking about the religion or the followers
How can I see sins in my own religion if I like it ?
How can one follow a religion if has the suspect/doubt that there are sins/failures in it

I see no compulsion to evengelize...that is not what I am about and there are plenty of Catholics out there who do not believe in this. Yet we get singled out as Christians and non-Christian religions are held up as being the peaceful and true path to God when we see evidence as otherwise.
Would be easy to say that's why the Vatican has issued such a document : cause in the end the problem [sort of heritage left by JP2] is that churches are half empty
These are not issues which are discussed with the whole community
The bishop or the cardinal is given orders from high and delivers it to the priest or pastor
When they feed the poor or the foreigners through rich sponsors, in the end they invite them to join the community

Now, I know not all Muslims are aggressors yet when Islam is slandered through violence why is it Islamic countries don't stand up to this and dennounce such acts?? Instead they bury their head in the sand so to speak and nothing is done to politically or economically disengage with such terrorists and heathens???
They do it through Arab League or GCC, just for some reason they are not given the same space that Ayaan Hirsi Ali or Robert Spencer are

Not Catholics, other subsects
There's no specific story : when they catch one in despair, they just invite them in the community

Senorita,
The way they invite is really lovely.
I appreciate.

I love my religion yet I do see transgressions in it that I do not believe in. I don't believe in compulsion I don't believe in evangalizing. What I do believe in is living one's life the way God intended and if someone from another faith relates to it fine then convert if not that is fine also.

The Arab League or the GCC should call attention to any terrorist act done in the name of Islam and to humiliate those associated with it and to address the issues causing such violence. MAYBE that could help curtail some of the violence. Then again there are some nut jobs out there that no matter what is done will continue to murder, rape and plunder no matter what is said or done and those are the extremists. Churches are half empty because I feel the Vatican has lost touch with today's parishoners and something needs to be done to gain them back but I don't think evangalizing is the answer.

I was not quoting Bin Laden. To me he is an animal, not human. I am only observing what i see going on in the Sudan and why there are people out there who feel that we of the book are still considered non-believers and need to be dealt with. It isn't just Bin Laden who feels that non-believers must be fought against. I am not coming into this topic with no experience about being around Muslims. I have listened to arguements for and against jihad (and not just what is viewed as the violent type). I am not the average American when it comes to knowing about Islam or Muslims I was emmersed in it and learned what I could for over 8 years...not the same as growing up with Islam but again...not the same as the average American who learned about Islam via 9/11 and the ill connotations associated with that event.

Is it true that Muslims are supposed to offer non-Muslims an opportunity to embrace Islam. If the non-Muslims refuse, the Muslim believes that the non-believer has commited aggression against Allah and Islam. Therefore, the Muslim is allowed to fight these aggressors against Allah and Islam until they become Muslims or are killed???


]Simply nonsense.[/SIZE]

You have no list idea about Islam, Quran or Sunna.

Thank you senorita, your post drew my attention before log out.

Well, you have no idea about Catholicism or the essence of Christianty except for propoganda spouted against it so you stick to things that support your views. At least through those years I tried my best to learn about Islam while other people take at face value what the news spouts out. So we are at a stalemate and I could care less. I had asked for open dialogue without being judged. DID I even SAY ALL Muslims thought this way...no I did not. I was pointing out a situation in the Sudan & why non-Muslims are being wiped out because people there believe in getting rid of non-believers.

You can say what you wish and by the way I prefer not to be called senorita. I am a grown woman not a girl.

Whatever you might say, the bottom line in that in coutries like India, Pakistan and Bangladesh, the BEST schools and hospitals are those that were established by missionaries to these countries.

So much better that these institutions are the institutions of choice for most people.

There is a premium attached to a 'convent' school education.

Now, if people decide to become Christian after attending such a school or being treated free / at a resonable cost in one of these hospitals, then that all to the good.

Next to my house in India, we have a huge hospital called the Holy Family Hospital which serves people of all faiths. When I last visited, I noticed the proportion of muslims there was in excess of all other faiths.

Now if your co-religionists could get their act together (you know, stop indoctrinating children, stop planning terrorist attacks, stop funding radical madrassas) then you could do something similar for your community.

I love my religion yet I do see transgressions in it that I do not believe in. I don't believe in compulsion I don't believe in evangalizing. What I do believe in is living one's life the way God intended and if someone from another faith relates to it fine then convert if not that is fine also.
Actually we are not discussing whether is right or wrong to invite people to the religion but the way is done which is not a flaw in your religion but in those who deliver the message
The document of the Vatican has a political meaning : those who operate in countries like Russia for example, where relations with local Church are not exactly idyllic, usually invite people to parish but in the end do not give substance to their actions through an official conversion cause afraid of possible retaliations of local government
The Vatican has all the right in these cases to say "we have the right to convert"
If then you were speaking about other flaws, that's another story

The Arab League or the GCC should call attention to any terrorist act done in the name of Islam and to humiliate those associated with it and to address the issues causing such violence. MAYBE that could help curtail some of the violence.
Is not in their style and culture and anyway it would increase it


Now, if people decide to become Christian after attending such a school or being treated free / at a resonable cost in one of these hospitals, then that all to the good.

Psichological terrorism is no better than the armed one
I hope people do not become Christians cause they're offered assistance
True that is easy to buy a human being but is definitely sad

Oh, you twist this into terrorism, is it ?

If people become Christian because they are convinced by the lives of people who offer selfless service, it all good.

I agree, conversion for financial inducement is not conversion at all.

I agree, conversion for financial inducement is not conversion at all.

Which is what makes it so unlikely to be something that actually occurs with any frequency.

Why would a convert for money remain a convert? Seems to me he would need continual infusions of cash.

They would certainly have to pay me handsomely to drag my *ss out of bed early every Sunday morning to go to Mass if I didn't believe it! :p

I have heard these stories about Muslims in Africa too.

I don't much believe any of the stories about any religion.

Oh, you twist this into terrorism, is it ? you turn everything into terrorism, why not this also
Weird how, though Islam is believed the religion of oppression and compulsion, Christianity turns to be more cause in the case of Evangelics they're simply the religious arm of a political movement
On the other side religious extremism and politics dnt match much

If people become Christian because they are convinced by the lives of people who offer selfless service, it all good.not enough

I agree, conversion for financial inducement is not conversion at all.
it depends on the religion
how easy is to follow

Have you been liberally imbibing of the crazy juice ?

though Islam is believed the religion of oppression and compulsion

What does Islam say should happen to you, if you decide to return to Christianity?

(answer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam))

Deuteronomy 13:6-9
6 If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, 7 gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), 8 do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. 9 You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people.

Hairly,

Don't display even more of your ignorance than you usually do.

Christianity is based on the teaching of Jesus Christ - all Old Testament readings must be examined thru what Jesus taught.

You really are making a pathetic spectacle of yourself.

^^

Hairly, on this one, Wudjab is right.

You can't just quote the Old Testament.

God made the Law in the Old Testament. For example, God made the law about keeping the Sabbath.

But Jesus said, "The Son of Man is the Lord of the Sabbath."

Jesus can change and modify God's Law (guess why?). So He said, "You have heard it said to you...(talking about the Law)...but I say to you...."

Jesus says, "Okay, stone. But first check yourself to see if you are a good person to stone. Are you without sin? No? Then put the stone down."

Is it true that Muslims are supposed to offer non-Muslims an opportunity to embrace Islam. If the non-Muslims refuse, the Muslim believes that the non-believer has commited aggression against Allah and Islam. Therefore, the Muslim is allowed to fight these aggressors against Allah and Islam until they become Muslims or are killed???


Respected Lady,
Peace be on you.
I prefer to reply and ask question in small segment, so it become clear to understand.
First two line of reply directed you refer to above question.
My Post # 58.

Is it true that Muslims are supposed to offer non-Muslims an opportunity to embrace Islam. If the non-Muslims refuse, the Muslim believes that the non-believer has commited aggression against Allah and Islam. Therefore, the Muslim is allowed to fight these aggressors against Allah and Islam until they become Muslims or are killed???



Just before the log out I notice the post #55 of Senorita amo_l_oman highlighting your question.

Her reply referring to your post# 53. I assume you are speaking of verses that normally Bin Laden uses in that way
Personally I dnt see it like that
I conveyed my thanks to Senorita amo and made the confusion.
It is my fault, I could write to avoid misunderstanding, Senorita amo , Thank you senorita, your post drew my attention before log out.

Well, you have no idea about Catholicism or the essence of Christianty except for propoganda spouted against it so you stick to things that support your views.

Never claimed I know, fact is this I am a learner.
Ready to learn sitting in front her/his feet.

This is an opportunity for us to know from you on your scripture, we can know what you understand and how you analyze our scripture.

In my any post you will never find any propaganda.
I don’t do that and I don’t need it even.
What I say, say from the scripture with reference.
If need to ask question, ask with due respect.

I have been taught 6:108. Revile not those unto whom they pray beside Allah lest they wrongfully revile Allah through ignorance. Thus unto every nation have We made their deed seem fair. Then unto their Lord is their return, and He will tell them what they used to do.

At least through those years I tried my best to learn about Islam while other people take at face value what the news spouts out. So we are at a stalemate and I could care less. I had asked for open dialogue without being judged. DID I even SAY ALL Muslims thought this way...no I did not. I was pointing out a situation in the Sudan & why non-Muslims are being wiped out because people there believe in getting rid of non-believers.

.

Say: "O People of the Book! come to common terms as between us and you: That we worship none but Allah; that we associate no partners with him; that we erect not, from among ourselves, Lords and patrons other than Allah. Al-Ìmrán 3:64

The Qur’an says in Surah Nahl, chapter 16 verse 125:

’Invite (all) to the way of thy Lord
with wisdom and beautiful preaching;
and argue with them in ways that are
best and most gracious.’
[Al-Qur’an 16:125]

The verses are self-explanatory.

What does Islam say should happen to you, if you decide to return to Christianity?

(answer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam))
As I said in other threads I agree with scholars who say that apostasy must be punished with death only if it carries the meaning of war against the Ummah

As I said in other threads I agree with scholars who say that apostasy must be punished with death only if it carries the meaning of war against the Ummah

Senorita,

I don’t feel comfort with this attitude.

My commonsense says one who can accept, he /she should have the right to leave.
Can you show any authentic sources?

Note: just for learning, behind there is no other attitude.

If it carries the meaning of war against the Ummah
This is Hypothesis , If 100/ 1000 Muslims(so called) leave Islam what happen to Allah (swt ) or Islam.

They were not Muslim at all.

Allah (swt) don’t need us or our praise but we need Him here and hereafter.

I'll be glad to help Shamsery.

All from Bukhari.

Volume 9, Book 83, Number 17:
Narrated 'Abdullah:

Allah's Apostle said, "The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims."

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 260:
Narrated Ikrima:

Ali burnt some people and this news reached Ibn 'Abbas, who said, "Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, 'Don't punish (anybody) with Allah's Punishment.' No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.' "

I'll be glad to help Shamsery.

All from Bukhari.

Volume 9, Book 83, Number 17:
Narrated 'Abdullah:

Allah's Apostle said, "The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims."

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 260:
Narrated Ikrima:

Ali burnt some people and this news reached Ibn 'Abbas, who said, "Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, 'Don't punish (anybody) with Allah's Punishment.' No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.' "


Need full context. Who translated the Hadith in English?

Need full context. Who translated the Hadith in English?

Wow !

Is that the best you can do ?

Don't be lazy, you can look up the hadith yourself.

(PS: It's always better to pick a battle you have a hope in hell of winning. Sadly, over here, you're completely out of your depth)

I don't think ahadith have "context". They are just stand alone stories that are narrated by reputed witnesses.

Jeff,

This is the standard strategy when Shamsery is loosing an argument. He begins thrashing wildly asking for context and authentic sources.

Wudjab:

I don't have any problem with my friend Shamsery. We are just discussing and it's a difficult subject.

Wow !

Is that the best you can do ?

Don't be lazy, you can look up the hadith yourself.

(PS: It's always better to pick a battle you have a hope in hell of winning. Sadly, over here, you're completely out of your depth)

Completely nonsense ,frustrating, disappointing.
There are thousand of Anti Islam websites.
They manipulate.
If you don’t know , stop slandering.
“Sly the Kafir where you get” surely it is a part of the verse from Holy Qur’an.
If you do not know the whole context, meaning will be just reverse.

I am not at all in fight with anyone here, clear.

I am a learner , discuss the issues for enlighten me, share experience with humbly with others in a modest way.

Don’t lie , without knowing never present view , any one reserve the right to differ with my view , ready to argue in humble and modest way, don’t come from behind , what to say , speak strait on board.

You are very much well come to detect any fault in Holy Qur’an and teaching of Prophet Muhammad (Pbuh), teach us but as a whole.

I through challenge to you , find out a single fault in Holly Qur’an.

Accept the challenge and come forward manly.

Remember, now I am not moderator and I enjoy the freedom to speak.
I do not bear any obligation to please any one if he /she is irrational.

I don't think ahadith have "context". They are just stand alone stories that are narrated by reputed witnesses.

Dear Jeff,
Please check , nothing is there in Islam without context.
There must be explanation.
Very important point, any thing contrary, contradicting with Holly Qur’an is straight void.
No compromise, no second thought.

Jeff,

This is the standard strategy when Shamsery is loosing an argument. He begins thrashing wildly asking for context and authentic sources.

Wonderful findings , why you afraid to pass through the falsification test?

Wudjab:

I don't have any problem with my friend Shamsery. We are just discussing and it's a difficult subject.


Thank you,

It is difficult subject.
We are some time guided by unconscious mind and sub conscious mind has great influence on us.
From the child hood we have brought up in certain environment , attachment who we love, their influence on us is unavoidable. Their conviction and faith we inherit and do not want hart their emotion and sentiment. Beside that there are lots of factors, I do not want to prolong .

There you go Shamsery,

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/083.sbt.html

Now, before you start, this has always been considered an credible source for Islamic reference, so have your fill.

Then please come back and explain the hadith I posted earlier.

There you go Shamsery,

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/083.sbt.html

Now, before you start, this has always been considered an credible source for Islamic reference, so have your fill.

Then please come back and explain the hadith I posted earlier.

Mr Wouldjab,
I asked for the context.
Why prophet said such words must have explanation.
Under what circumstances ,we are to check.
Every Hadidth has backgrounds.
Bring that for analyzing the text and thus we shall be benefited.
This site launched by University of Southern California, Who translated it from Arabic to English , I need time to study in depth the site before I comment.


May I request the Arab’s brother and sister to check the Hadith in Arabic and if possible translate it to English?

This is the link for homepage: http://www.usc.edu/

Need very careful study.


I think this can be discuss in other thread and let Vatican …………..run in its way.

I think you will find that the www.usc.edu is a reliable site when it comes to quranic/hadith references.

Please don't run away from the discussion.

Please explain the meaning of the hadiths I quoted to you.

Please do no open new topics unless you are able to deal with the ones you already have in progress.

Shamsery come back home.

All is forgiven.

Shamsery come back home.

All is forgiven.

I think you will find that the www.usc.edu is a reliable site when it comes to quranic/hadith references.

Please don't run away from the discussion.

Please explain the meaning of the hadiths I quoted to you.

Please do no open new topics unless you are able to deal with the ones you already have in progress.


1) I said you that that site demands careful study.
2) Hadith : Regarding Hadith there is controversy .
3) Until we know , why , when, and in front whom , under what circumstances he said that I resave my comment with small note that Prophet Muhammad can’t pass any verdict that can go against humanity.
4) Misinterpreted Hdath , fictitious concept of Islam, distorted Ayat with out relevant context , people like you and others presenting before the people through audio , video , internet , satellite channels and print media. Spending billion of US Dollars.
5) Fastest growing religion is Islam , present rate is 235% than before, Good number reverting to Islam in your paradise America and 66% of American reverts are Woman.
6) I wish to remained I just come out from the Moderator team to discuss, reply and to exchange views and ideas , so I can learn.
7) I never associate me with lie knowing fully, I found some are just engaged in brainwashing of the youths here. In truer political language they can be introduced as the agent of cultural hegemonies.
8) I know well what to do and when I am to continue my initiated thread.

What a complicated belief system you follow.

Quran
Hadith
Sunnah

Not sure if a hadith is strong or weak.
Not sure of the context.
Can only be truly understood in Arabic

No wonder you're confused.

Hamdulilah we at least have a system to follow :D!

If you can figure it out, Hamdulilah.

What a complicated belief system you follow.

Quran
Hadith
Sunnah

Not sure if a hadith is strong or weak.
Not sure of the context.
Can only be truly understood in Arabic

No wonder you're confused.

Your system is simple, believe in Jesus Christ as your saviour and straight to heaven. :)

Yeah IceTea, I have a online friend who converted to Islam recently because he thought: Having one, and only one god, was very simple and made sense.

:)

Your system is simple, believe in Jesus Christ as your saviour and straight to heaven. :)

That's not what Wudjab and I believe! :)