In your opinion and for those who left Christanity and convert to Islam, what are the main reasons for leaving Christianity?

Is it the Trinity?
Is it feeling Spiritually empty?
Is it feeling that Jesus not answering your prayers?
Is it because Christianity not providing practical solutions to today society problems?
Is it due to many versions of the Bible and don't know which one to follow?
Is it feeling confessing to a priest doesn't make sense nor logical as there is a middle man between you and God?

Share your views and thoughts.

Ice, brotherly advice and a bit of foretelling:
Opening such threads will lead to some other member opening some other thread asking why do MUSLIMS leave ISLAM. Your only reply then will be, 'Because they become blinded from the truth' which is perfectly logical for a Muslim like myself.

People don't leave their religions because another religion is better in their opinion. But because they accept something with their heart more than they accept something else...Our religion is the best religion, for Christians, their religion is the best religion, etcetra. For converts, they find a kind of beauty in the religion they convert to that they could not or would not find in their old religion...That beauty touches their heart and they convert. Nobody at the time of the prophet PBUH converted to Islam on the base of 'scientific' evidence in the Qura'an...Or because they found faults in the trinity (if they were Christian) but because they found something that made them feel more spiritual about their lives...

Threadlike, I think you are wrong, there are many Christians who converted to Islam because of the mystery of the Trinity.

And no problem, everyone can open the thread he/she wants to open, this is a forum, right?

Is it the Trinity?
Is it feeling Spiritually empty?
Is it feeling that Jesus not answering your prayers?
Is it because Christianity not providing practical solutions to today society problems?
Is it due to many versions of the Bible and don't know which one to follow?
--------------------------------------------------
Is it feeling confessing to a priest doesn't make sense nor logical as there is a middle man between you and God?

All of the above but not in a such simplistic way
On one side there are some theological aspects that are not convincing
On the other side there's the priest/nun placed as intermediaries of God which sometimes create the trouble
Confession is only one of the tasks of the priest not the only one
In Islam there are Imams and scholars but the religion is based on equality so is unlikely that a believer will have some feeling of inferiority towards them

And there are many Muslims who convert to Christianity because of the love of God made Man who died to forgive them their sins.

Many suffer even death for it gladly, praying for those who torture them.

And of course, million of others all around the world who are not Muslims become Christian every year. The "complication" does not stop them! :p

I think MOST Christians who become Muslims do so because they never really understood their religion or took it seriously. Maybe they took it for granted.

But certainly, for those in such a position, there are many virtues and attractive things about Islam. And it is even possible that by doing so, if they're Christianity was not lively in their hearts and minds, that they moved closer to God.

I never encountered a person who said that they converted from Islam because of the Trinity who could explain the Trinity to me. Most of them never understood the doctrine in the first place. At least before I explained it to them.

They just heard something about it, didn't get it, and gave up or looked elsewhere.

Many converts to Islam also return eventually to Christianity. I myself know two such individuals. They thought they were progressing, but after being Muslim for a while, they discovered that they had gone backward. To become a REAL Muslim, to discover what they were seeking, they had to return to the Fullness of Truth in Christianity.

But Islam started them taking religion seriously. And they give credit to Islam for that.

"mystery of the Trinity."

But for Christians or for Muslims converting to Christianity, the Trinity doesn't sound like such a mystery IceTea...Maybe for Muslims converting to Christianity, the Isra'a and Mi'raj sounds like a mystery...I don't know how they think anyhow. I was just guessing...

Ice, brotherly advice and a bit of foretelling:
Opening such threads will lead to some other member opening some other thread asking why do MUSLIMS leave ISLAM. Your only reply then will be, 'Because they become blinded from the truth' which is perfectly logical for a Muslim like myself.

People don't leave their religions because another religion is better in their opinion. But because they accept something with their heart more than they accept something else...Our religion is the best religion, for Christians, their religion is the best religion, etcetra. For converts, they find a kind of beauty in the religion they convert to that they could not or would not find in their old religion...That beauty touches their heart and they convert. Nobody at the time of the prophet PBUH converted to Islam on the base of 'scientific' evidence in the Qura'an...Or because they found faults in the trinity (if they were Christian) but because they found something that made them feel more spiritual about their lives...

I get you man! And I respect what you are saying.

But everyone has a different way.

I don't want to jab at Islam. I respect Islam and what better reason could I have than beautiful Muslims like you?

You have a deep and sympathetic heart and I think you understand us Christians a little better than Ice Tea. And I think you are a better Muslim for it!

But Ice Tea has his own ideas and his own way and there is room for that too. I can live with it; really I am happy with it, though I am glad there are others like you too.

But, Threadlike, I am trying to be loving and respectful and to EXPLAIN without taking a critical or hostile attitude. If you ever think I am failing, please tell me.

"mystery of the Trinity."

But for Christians or for Muslims converting to Christianity, the Trinity doesn't sound like such a mystery IceTea...Maybe for Muslims converting to Christianity, the Isra'a and Mi'raj sounds like a mystery...I don't know how they think anyhow. I was just guessing...

I think you are right, though I think there are few who convert especially because of the Trinity. Most convert because of the surpassing love shown by God in Christ, the Redeemer and Savior.

But some convert because of intellectual reasons. I think for them, it's the opposite of what Muslims say. Muslims often say that Christinity is too COMPLICATED. But for us, Islam can seem too SIMPLE! :p

But you know, if I stretch my mind to try to understand how Islam really seems to Muslims (rather than just arguing) and you do the same for us, I really think it is a beautiful thing and it can do us both nothing but good, no matter who is right.

You never take a negative attitude and it's always a pleasure to listen to you Jeff :)

You know, if you really want to understand us, Ice Tea, you should go to Christian sites and ask them why they believe what they believe and why not be Muslim since it is better?

Some people will be hostile, others will be friendly. More will be friendly if you are respectful, loving, and careful.

Take an adventure like my adventure on Sabla. And see what happens! Make it part of your deen.

All of the above but not in a such simplistic way
On one side there are some theological aspects that are not convincing
On the other side there's the priest/nun placed as intermediaries of God which sometimes create the trouble
Confession is only one of the tasks of the priest not the only one
In Islam there are Imams and scholars but the religion is based on equality so is unlikely that a believer will have some feeling of inferiority towards them

Will be nice to know other tasks of the priest?

You never take a negative attitude and it's always a pleasure to listen to you Jeff :)

I think you are better than me, Threadlike.

Oh! By nature I am a grumpy, negative arguer who likes to throw people on the ground intellectually and sit on them! :p

But when I talk about this stuff, most of the time I feel this great sense of responsibility. Like I am on Holy Ground. I feel almost frightened at the thought of dragging the Holy Things of God in the mud and making them look silly by getting personal and making the fight a cheap human fight by Jeff.

I just try to get out of the way and let God do His work.

But there is still far too much Jeff!

Really, I am not good at it. Pray for me; and I will do the same for you.

I think it's good to let amo explain herself because she has direct testimony, since she is a convert from Christianity.

And I think you should also PM to poisonillusions and to mimosa since they are both also converts from Christianity.

That will be good for the thread.

"mystery of the Trinity."

But for Christians or for Muslims converting to Christianity, the Trinity doesn't sound like such a mystery IceTea...Maybe for Muslims converting to Christianity, the Isra'a and Mi'raj sounds like a mystery...I don't know how they think anyhow. I was just guessing...

Maybe I should provide some Christians who converted to Islam stories who think that the Trinity is a mystery and doesn't make sense to them.

I don't think comparing the Trinity with the Isra'a and Mi'raj is valid.

It might also be good to ask Fengy, since she is someone who has no temptation to convert. She could give you an opposite view: Why she stays a Christian and doesn't convert even though her family is all Muslim now and they strongly want her to become Muslim.

But she may be in Libya already. :(

Oh look, another thread from our friend here trying to attack my religion.

Hmmm.. I wonder if I should join in or ignore him ?

Why not IceTea?
Both are religious facts from different religions, involved very deeply with the power of God, and are built entirely on faith and no sicentific evidence.

Wudjab:

Join in! Tell us in positive terms if you can, what attracts you to Christianity, what keeps you a Christian and why you don't find Islam convincing, even after making so many Muslim friends and hearing their arguments and testimony.

And there are many Muslims who convert to Christianity because of the love of God made Man who died to forgive them their sins.

Many suffer even death for it gladly, praying for those who torture them.

And of course, million of others all around the world who are not Muslims become Christian every year. The "complication" does not stop them! :p

I think MOST Christians who become Muslims do so because they never really understood their religion or took it seriously. Maybe they took it for granted.

But certainly, for those in such a position, there are many virtues and attractive things about Islam. And it is even possible that by doing so, if they're Christianity was not lively in their hearts and minds, that they moved closer to God.

I never encountered a person who said that they converted from Islam because of the Trinity who could explain the Trinity to me. Most of them never understood the doctrine in the first place. At least before I explained it to them.

They just heard something about it, didn't get it, and gave up or looked elsewhere.

Many converts to Islam also return eventually to Christianity. I myself know two such individuals. They thought they were progressing, but after being Muslim for a while, they discovered that they had gone backward. To become a REAL Muslim, to discover what they were seeking, they had to return to the Fullness of Truth in Christianity.

But Islam started them taking religion seriously. And they give credit to Islam for that.

Even though Christianity dsnt have death as punishment for those who leave, that dsnt mean that somwhere there's not a punishment for them
Christians forgive til a certain extent
The second statement is a proclamation of superiority, you're starting to speak like some [many ?] Muslims
Bring me numbers on the third I highlighted cause is already difficult to calculate those who leave Islam, let alone those who leave Christianity then go back

Wudjab:

Join in! Tell us in positive terms if you can, what attracts you to Christianity, what keeps you a Christian and why you don't find Islam convincing, even after making so many Muslim friends and hearing their arguments and testimony.
Why are you doing this ?
The thread was started in a very polite way
The argument is delicate but can be discussed [though there are not many converts in ES]
What you ask for can be discussed separately in another thread

Why not IceTea?
Both are religious facts from different religions, involved very deeply with the power of God, and are built entirely on faith and no sicentific evidence.

Because the Trinity is a core of a belief and the other one is not.

Oh look, another thread from our friend here trying to attack my religion.

Hmmm.. I wonder if I should join in or ignore him ?

Where is the attack, no need to be defensive.

Christians who convert to Islam say such reasons.

Actually if you don't believe Isra' and Miraj then how can you believe in any of what happened to the prophet PBUH anyhow? You're telling me you can believe in the prophet but NOT believe in al Isra' and Mir'aj?

Why are you doing this ?
The thread was started in a very polite way
The argument is delicate but can be discussed [though there are not many converts in ES]
What you ask for can be discussed separately in another thread

Well, in order to understand why Christians become Muslim, I think it helps to understand why others DON'T become Muslim. Some Christians see Christians become Muslim and they follow them. Others don't.

That's what Threadlike is talking about, for example.

I fully support your explanation of your ideas and I even suggested two other candidates! So I don't think I am doing anything terrible.

You might be right. Maybe it is off topic. Maybe the mods will agree. But if we are all to understand each other well and have a rich conversation, we have to compare all our experiences.

That's my opinion: discuss widely and deeply, but politely and respectfully.

Where is the attack, no need to be defensive.

Christians who convert to Islam say such reasons.

My dear Mufti,

Do you notice the contradiction in your statement above ?

You seem to contradict yourself a lot. Why are you so confused ?

Actually if you don't believe Isra' and Miraj then how can you believe in any of what happened to the prophet PBUH anyhow? You're telling me you can believe in the prophet but NOT believe in al Isra' and Mir'aj?

I think we should stay within the topic, maybe if there is a thread about Muslims converting to Christianity you can bring al Isra' and Mir'aj event.

Okay, what is Isra' and Miraj?

wudjab, where is the contradiction?

It's a yes/no question. I'd apologize to the mods for both of us. But kindly answer it.

Well, in order to understand why Christians become Muslim, I think it helps to understand why others DON'T become Muslim.

That's my opinion: discuss widely and deeply, but politely and respectfully.
I don't think is off topic
You just want to start a fire [and I've seen it in your first offensive post]
As you like

I think we should stay within the topic, maybe if there is a thread about Muslims converting to Christianity you can bring al Isra' and Mir'aj event.There are actuallly several threads of both ...

Christian to Muslim

Muslim to Christian

Why didn't you simply continue there ...?

I think we should stay within the topic, maybe if there is a thread about Muslims converting to Christianity you can bring al Isra' and Mir'aj event.

Oftentimes, in threads about one thing, you will bring in something like, "How is Jesus God?" and "Can't be Three and One."

I always support you because I think comparing and discussing generally makes the topic more understandable.

There is plenty of freedom for amo, poison, mimosa and others to directly answer your question. But to see if the answer is general we have to compare all experiences and ideas related to the question.

Otherwise, it will just become a celebration thread.

But I am content if the mods agree with you... It's your thread.

jack, can you provide the link to a similar topic?

jack, can you provide the link to a similar topic?Do a search ... don't be so lazy.

Jeff, Isra' and Miraj refer to the Mohammed riding a magical winged horse called the Buraq - which apparently is easier to believe than the Trinity.

I don't think is off topic
You just want to start a fire [and I've seen it in your first offensive post]
As you like

Well, your reactions are funny! :p

I don't know how my post is offensive and very few people find my posts offensive. Here I defended Ice Tea and Threadlike and you and everybody.

When Threadlike and Ice Tea are arguing, I am damping down the fire and praising both.

I spoke respectfully about reasons Christians might have for converting to Islam.

Where is the disrespect? I was encouraging Wudjab to join and tell us about his heart and experience, which is not always what we get from him. I said "positive if you can." I don't see that that is causing a fire.

But then I always rub you the wrong way, don't I? Well, I can't be liked by everybody! :) I like you anyway...

Maybe your constant pandering to the muslim vote is becoming a bit offensive to them as well ?

;)

Jeff, Isra' and Miraj refer to the Mohammed riding a magical winged horse called the Buraq - which apparently is easier to believe than the Trinity.

Thanks! That clears up one "mystery" for me. :)

Maybe your constant pandering to the muslim vote is becoming a bit offensive to them as well ?

;)

Maybe! :p

You certainly beat me in the vote for best member. Blunt frankness won the day! Grovelling dhimmitude failed miserably... :p

But then, if I remember rightly, I was carrying water for you then. An all round panderer that's me!

Get you anything, sir, while you wait? ;)

Maybe! :p

You certainly beat me in the vote for best member. Blunt frankness won the day! Grovelling dhimmitude failed miserably... :p

But then, if I remember rightly, I was carrying water for you then. An all round panderer that's me!

Get you anything, sir, while you wait? ;)
yes a glass of red wine. Dry. and one for me while you're at it. :D

yes a glass of red wine. Dry. and one for me while you're at it. :DMeanie ... you know I'm on the wagon :XD:

yes a glass of red wine. Dry. and one for me while you're at it. :D

My pleasure!

But I'll have to PM it to you. I think this is a teetotal thread. :angel:

Okay, I'll make it quick. I didn't enjoy my religion even though I did anything to believe in my mothers religion which is Roman Catholic and then jumping to different branches of Christianity. I read about Islam and said "it all makes sense now" I'm glad I made my choice to converting to Islam which is my fathers religion. Although I have nothing against my Christians nor my family but I do hate my family being ignorant sometimes. Well, what can you expect with a family who has a cold heart and shames everyone? May Allah subhana wa tala guide them to the right path ameen.

Jeff, Isra' and Miraj refer to the Mohammed riding a magical winged horse called the Buraq - which apparently is easier to believe than the Trinity.

wudjab, sometimes I wonder whether you are an ex-muslim before!!

you seem to know about islam more than muslim members in ES:)

Okay, I'll make it quick. I didn't enjoy my religion even though I did anything to believe in my mothers religion which is Roman Catholic and then jumping to different branches of Christianity. I read about Islam and said "it all makes sense now" I'm glad I made my choice to converting to Islam which is my fathers religion. Although I have nothing against my Christians nor my family but I do hate my family being ignorant sometimes. Well, what can you expect with a family who has a cold heart and shames everyone? May Allah subhana wa tala guide them to the right path ameen.

be good to your family Poison, even if you feel they are bad to you, especially your mother even though she might be still a christian after all she is your mother, obey her listen to her and cherish her as long as it doesn't conflict with your islamic teachings.

may Allah swt bless you ameen.

be good to your family Poison, even if you feel they are bad to you, especially your mother even though she might be still a christian after all she is your mother, obey her listen to her and cherish her as long as it doesn't conflict with your islamic teachings.

may Allah swt bless you ameen.

Brother, I remember I told my ex fiancee in the pit of anger and I had it with my mother. I said " Jannah doesn't not lie underneath the feet of my mother. Jahanam does" I said that because ever since I got divorced my family damns me now. Also, my Khalo brought it to my attention that my mother is jealous of me. I love my khalo so much but qasembillah it makes me sick and angry to hear his Bush supporting tongue (although he's not even rich enough to be a Republican) run his mouth sometimes about Islam. Subhana'allah Allah subhana wa tala shows the truth of the non Muslims (well to me I feel that about my family).

whats the meaning of the following words which you use a lot :-

Jannah
Jahanam
Khalo
qasembilah

Thanks.

whats the meaning of the following words which you use a lot :-

Jannah
Jahanam
Khalo
qasembilah

Thanks.

Jannah-Heaven
Jahanam- Hell
Khalo- Uncle on mothers side but he's my Aunts husband so I call him Khalo. There is 3amo also.
Qasembillah- Is another word for swearing to God.

^^Poison I think you need to repent of the sin you committed by saying that Hell lays under the feet of the mother, astaghferullah.

my advice to you sister is to be nice to your mother, and forgive her for whatever bad things she did to you, a muslim needs to show love and affection to his parents no matter what.
supplicate to Allah swt to forgive your mother, free your heart from haterate, ask Allah to lead you to the right path and I will pray for you to solve all your problems with your mother, be patient and strong, think before you talk anything bad about your mother, and let me tell you one thing whatever good you do to your mother you can not repay one of her labour "talqa" agony she went through when she delivered you as our prophet pbuh told us.

Be good to your mother Poison.

^^Poison I think you need to repent of the sin you committed by saying that Hell lays under the feet of the mother, astaghferullah.

my advice to you sister is to be nice to your mother, and forgive her for whatever bad things she did to you, a muslim needs to show love and affection to his parents no matter what.
supplicate to Allah swt to forgive your mother, free your heart from haterate, ask Allah to lead you to the right path and I will pray for you to solve all your problems with your mother, be patient and strong, think before you talk anything bad about your mother, and let me tell you one thing whatever good you do to your mother you can not repay one of her labour "talqa" agony she went through when she delivered you as our prophet pbuh told us.

Be good to your mother Poison.

I know what I said to my mother was wrong. I was very angry and just couldn't take it. I know she went through the pain of labor with me but she didn't raise me she abandoned me when I was a small girl. My aunt raised me and I hold my aunt in very high standards than my mother.

Okay, I'll make it quick. I didn't enjoy my religion even though I did anything to believe in my mothers religion which is Roman Catholic and then jumping to different branches of Christianity. I read about Islam and said "it all makes sense now" I'm glad I made my choice to converting to Islam which is my fathers religion. Although I have nothing against my Christians nor my family but I do hate my family being ignorant sometimes. Well, what can you expect with a family who has a cold heart and shames everyone? May Allah subhana wa tala guide them to the right path ameen.

Thanks for your participation, at least we are now on topic.

I understand from your story that you felt spiritually empty while you were Christian.

May Allah guide your family to the straight path. Ameen

Well, your reactions are funny! :p What's so funny in it ?

very few people find my posts offensive.Am talking about THAT post
Of course they don't find you offensive, you try to be diplomatic all the time
That's not respect, that's hipocrysy : you cannot keep one foot in two shoes

I spoke respectfully about reasons Christians might have for converting to Islam.
You have a weird concept of respect : maybe if you check my posts, there you can find respect cause I might have said much more and much worse on the reasons why I left Christianity and the way how some Christians deal with such choice .

Where is the disrespect?You said that MOST Christians who revert to Islam, do so cause they failed in understanding Christianity
Based on what you say that ?
Do you think that one changes religion only cause is not understanding the doctrine so they switch to another religion ?
Don't you think that Christianity failed on them or failed in general ?
And in case you think that becoming Muslim after being Christian, is the easiest thing on earth, well is not, so take it back your accuse of easy choice

And again, bring me the numbers of those who go back to Christianity after having converted to Islam : you cannot cause as good old Woody says, is extremely difficult to know how many apostates are around .

I like you anyway...
I don't like your dishonesty, never said I dnt like you globally my dear :p

I know what I said to my mother was wrong. I was very angry and just couldn't take it. I know she went through the pain of labor with me but she didn't raise me she abandoned me when I was a small girl. My aunt raised me and I hold my aunt in very high standards than my mother.

ok poison I got the picture now a Christian mother and a muslim father and you are the victim, your mother abandoned you when you were a little child.

let me tell you I went through similar experience like you, my son from my christian ex-wife thinks I abandoned him, he does not like to talk to me or even wants to see me, but of course I love him so much and I feel terribly disturbed and disappointed about it.

and I am sure your mother feels the same way about you, you are still her daughter, and surely she loves you.

most cases of mixed religion marriages, especially muslims and christians end up in divorce and separation, parents and children suffer the consequences.

I learnt my lesson well, I will not let my heart follow his desires again, that's why I am married now to muslim wives (2 only):), my first wife is a muslim by birth the second one I got her to convert from christianity to Islam, in fact that was the main condition to marry my second wife, and everything is fine and well so far alhamdulilah.

IceTea sorry if i went off topic a bit :)

ok poison I got the picture now a Christian mother and a muslim father and you are the victim, your mother abandoned you when you were a little child.

let me tell you I went through similar experience like you, my son from my christian ex-wife thinks I abandoned him, he does not like to talk to me or even wants to see me, but of course I love him so much and I feel terribly disturbed and disappointed about it.

and I am sure your mother feels the same way about you, you are still her daughter, and surely she loves you.

most cases of mixed religion marriages, especially muslims and christians end up in divorce and separation, parents and children suffer the consequences.

I learnt my lesson well, I will not let my heart follow his desires again, that's why I am married now to muslim wives (2 only):), my first wife is a muslim by birth the second one I got her to convert from christianity to Islam, in fact that was the main condition to marry my second wife, and everything is fine and well so far alhamdulilah.

IceTea sorry if i went off topic a bit :)

Masha'allah, so you have two wives. Masha'allah for both of your wives. I couldn't do the whole two wives. It would be a cat fight 24/7 at my house :hyper: . I know it's halal but I am so jealous that someone would have to die. It would be my husband or the new heifer:hyper:

What religion does your estranged son follow, Clouds ?

It's ok clouds, didn't know you have 2 wives, you still have 2 more to reach the roof :)


most cases of mixed religion marriages, especially muslims and christians end up in divorce and separation, parents and children suffer the consequences.



Very true. That is why today such type of marraige is not recommended unless the wife first convert to Islam as the case with your 2nd wife.

What religion does your estranged son follow, Clouds ?

God knows what he follows now, I am still hoping and praying that he will be a muslim, but living with his catholic christian mother for 23 years, I leave to you to guess!!!

What's so funny in it ?

Am talking about THAT post
Of course they don't find you offensive, you try to be diplomatic all the time
That's not respect, that's hipocrysy : you cannot keep one foot in two shoes


You have a weird concept of respect : maybe if you check my posts, there you can find respect cause I might have said much more and much worse on the reasons why I left Christianity and the way how some Christians deal with such choice .

You said that MOST Christians who revert to Islam, do so cause they failed in understanding Christianity
Based on what you say that ?
Do you think that one changes religion only cause is not understanding the doctrine so they switch to another religion ?
Don't you think that Christianity failed on them or failed in general ?
And in case you think that becoming Muslim after being Christian, is the easiest thing on earth, well is not, so take it back your accuse of easy choice

And again, bring me the numbers of those who go back to Christianity after having converted to Islam : you cannot cause as good old Woody says, is extremely difficult to know how many apostates are around .


I don't like your dishonesty, never said I dnt like you globally my dear :p

Now you are calling me names...is that honest? Or just testy? :p

If I am irritated with somebody, I can just be angry and think bad things about them. Or: I can try to be patient and look for the good.

Now: if you make me irritated, and I look for the good in you and I find it, why should I care about the irritation? Why shouldn't I choose instead to encourage people, instead of be angry with them? Why shouldn't I choose to try to make peace instead of encourage fighting? If I am just as likely to be wrong as you are, why shouldn't I assume that I am at least as bad as you and try to be friends? :)

Show me where is the dishonesty. Can you find one lie I told to somebody? I ALWAYS say what I believe and feel.

Let me ask you: Suppose you meet a Muslim who converts to Christianity. I can introduce you to some if you come to America. Will you think that most of them understood Islam correctly? Or will you say that they did not? When you hear their descriptions of what made them disatisfied with Islam, will you say, "Yes, of course! You are 100% right!"

What do I know about you? Nothing! And I didn't say anything about you. I don't know your heart; even though you are sure you understand my heart. ;)

All I said was that I think--me, Jeff, I THINK--on the basis of listening to them talk about Christianity, that MOST OF THEM didn't really understand it.

Now what do you want me to do? Do you want me to say what I think? Or do you want me to be diplomatic? :p Either way, you don't like it!

I will never tell you what you did or did not understand. But I can and will make a generalization about what I hear from Christian converts. I talk to Christians all the time. We talk about our love of Christ and the Church and how we handle our spiritual lives and what we think about the teachings of Christianity, our joys and our sorrows and our difficulties.

And I also talk to Christians who are poorly instructed or don't have a deep relationship with Christ or a deep attachment to their faith. I am not faulting them. But there are such people in the world, just as there are Muslims who's religion is not deep or personal.

Most of the converts to Islam I have encountered are of the second type. I have NEVER met a convert who talks like the people I described to you in the first case. Not one. And I have never heard one that talked like that. Or read one.

Maybe you are the one. I don't know you. Maybe there are others. I cannot read hearts. And you can't either.

Almost no Christians deeply in love with Christianity become Muslims, that's my impression. And the same the other way around. There may be exceptions, but that is my general impression.

According to you, what? If they say, I didn't find it in Christianity, then I have to say, Okay, it isn't there?

Sorry. My answer is: It is there. You missed it. You didn't get it.

An honest mistake maybe? Sure, maybe! I believe and assume that you and others are honest. But if I were like you I could say: Dishonest!

If you don't like it, write a letter to the editor! But that's what I think so, Vatene, Italiana! (leave me alone, Italian girl!)

There is that undiplomatic enough for you? ;)

Or should I try to understand you better?

Which do you prefer? :yes: :no:

God knows what he follows now, I am still hoping and praying that he will be a muslim, but living with his catholic christian mother for 23 years, I leave to you to guess!!!

Amo will tell me I am being diplomatic. Wudjab will tell me I am pandering.

But when I read this, I feel your pain and disappointment in my heart. And I sympathize with you. Somehow, I feel close to you. So I want to say that, even though we are on different "teams".

And I respect the calm and dignified way you answered.

But there, if I say that, I am being dishonest. The people who understand me well tell me so. :p

Will you understand what I say? Will you appreciate it? Will it make you angry?

I don't know. But, I speak from my heart.

I am supposed to jump up and down and say, Yay! We won! clouds lost! Christians won! Muslims lost! Or something like that, according to some people. But I don't feel it. So, why should I say it?

God knows what he follows now, I am still hoping and praying that he will be a muslim, but living with his catholic christian mother for 23 years, I leave to you to guess!!!


Thank God for that.

At least that means there's one less fanatic in this world.

Sorry. My answer is: It is there. You missed it. You didn't get it.


Of course you will say that, cause you think that your religion is the only valid
And I will do the same on my side

Now what do you want me to do? Do you want me to say what I think? Or do you want me to be diplomatic? :p Either way, you don't like it!

So when you are being diplomatic, you are not saying what you think
You are saying that, not me

And you can't either.
I can

Thank God for that.

At least that means there's one less fanatic in this world.


I would rather he is a muslim fanatic than a devoted christian.

I don't want my son to end up in hell fire thank you.

(Allah swt explained this in my signiture below)

Thank God for that.

At least that means there's one less fanatic in this world.

That was rude and very retarded of you. I'm a Muslim and not a damn fanatic. If you're a Christian, you set a very good example of the ignorance some Christians show.

Of course you will say that, cause you think that your religion is the only valid
And I will do the same on my side

And we will give evidences to each other which we think are valid. Just as I have done! :)

So when you are being diplomatic, you are not saying what you think
You are saying that, not me

I said, do you WANT me to be diplomatic? I am following your mistaken idea and showing you where it leads. Do you want me to be considerate of your feelings? Or just to be brutal and careless? I can do either one and still say what I think.

I can

You can read your heart and mine too. I can do neither one! Poor me! :cry:

Anyway, I still didn't see the letter to the editor! :p

That was rude and very retarded of you. I'm a Muslim and not a damn fanatic. If you're a Christian, you set a very good example of the ignorance some Christians show.

Don't get your panties in a bunch.

Was I talking to you ?

Don't get your panties in a bunch.

Was I talking to you ?

No, but you make it seem like all Muslims are "fanatics"

Now, is your thong strap too tight on you?

Don't get your panties in a bunch.

Was I talking to you ?


This what you said to her is really rude

you could have put it in a nicer way:

squeezing your nose between the onion and it's skin all you get is it's bad smell ( arabic saying)

And I also talk to Christians who are poorly instructed or don't have a deep relationship with Christ or a deep attachment to their faith. I am not faulting them. But there are such people in the world, just as there are Muslims who's religion is not deep or personal.



Why you don't say that they found the real truth about Jesus pbuh in the Quran?

They have rejected associating him as partner with God.

Don't get your panties in a bunch.

Was I talking to you ?

You are giving Christians bad name by showing disrespect to poison and clouds.

Color me shocked.

No, but you make it seem like all Muslims are "fanatics"

Now, is your thong strap too tight on you?

Nope, it was specifically directed at Clouds, who as we all know, is a well known fanatic.

"Thanks! That clears up one "mystery" for me"

LOL, wudjab, it's a little more than that for Muslims :p
It's a MIRACLE...Just like Jesus PBUH walked on the water and healed people, our prophet Mohammed, PBUH, had many miracles and Isra'a and Mira'j is just one of them. I'm pretty sure I got a book about it here somewhere from Sheikh Sha'arawi...The journey on the 'winged horse' which is called Al Buraq as wudjab had rightly pointed out is divided into two steps, the first is Al Isra'a, the second is Al Mira'aj. Al Isra'a involved the journey of the prophet form Mecca to Al Masjid Al Aqsa in Jerusalem where he led all other prophets in prayer as an Imam...And met them all. Al Mira'aj involved the journey of the prophet PBUH through the Seven Skies, Heaven and Hell, the determination of the number of prayers Muslims have to perform and meetings with the other prophets of Allah.

The miracle is that ALLLLL this happened in a fraction of one night when the first part of the journey alone required weeks of journeying at the time. I remember reading somewhere that the prophet PBUH returned to find his bed still warm...

But as you can see, something as crucial as this IS important in Islam as the belief in the prophet PBUH automatically drags the belief in the miracles that were associated with him.

Nope, it was specifically directed at Clouds, who as we all know, is a well known fanatic.

I am a fanatic may be, but not rude like you.

you have given a bad impression to all of us when you addressed a respected lady like that.

You're a respected lady ?

:o :o

Don't be silly!

All your posts in this thread are off topic and should be deleted, I wonder where are the mods.