What does it mean to "offend religions"? Is it always bad? Sometimes bad?

Can religious people be too sensitive sometimes?

Is it what you say? Or how you say it? Which is the offensive part?

Can you argue with religions? Can you believe they are stupid or bad? Why or why not?

If an atheist argues that God is ridiculous and that religions are bad, can he do it without being offensive if that's what he thinks? Can you argue that some religions might be good and others bad? Or will that always be offensive?

Can we carry respect too far? For example:

http://bogieworks.blogs.com/photos/uncategorized/2007/10/25/respect.jpg

I'd say that one is offending religion depending on whom your talking to, if it was a person who isn't really religous, instead it's just a status on his/her passport then I wouldn't see that as offending to that person. On the other hand, if your believes differs with a religous person from another religion then I'd say your offending religion. All in all, I think it depends whom your dealing with.

Hmm, that's not a bad idea. So it's really more a matter of respecting the person you're talking to for you?

I mean if you know that the person is going to be all sensative about it, he/she is religous to the extreme and there's like a noway chance you can change their views, then why bother? It will just create chaos and both sides will end up disturbed some how. :os

You can't offend a religion. If so please show me how?

You can offend followers of a religion ... and I say that's their problem.

And followers of a religion will tell you point blank that they are not the religion ... but they are the ones that get pissy.

So you see the circle that never quite connects ... with this offending a religion.

Offending is not a good way to express your opinion about any religion. You can make you point of view clear without offending other people. I do not think that you can convince any person to convert to the religion you are embracing by offending his religion. Even though he offends your religion you SHOULD reply him quietly and with respect because your reaction might change his opinion.

^
You no getty ... do you?

I've never heard about it !!

I just speak out whenever i feel like and i give my honest tought of it.. unless i dont know the person at all

So it's really more a matter of respecting the person you're talking to for you?

This is a part of it, put the main part of it is to respect this person believes.

You can definitely argue with him in whatever aspects you would like but in a respectful manner for him as a person and for the religion you are discussing even if you don’t agree with

When I discuss with a person about Dogs, and I know that he loves his 2 little puppies .. I will not tell him that I find dogs disgusting .. because he wont like it .. and its only my own liking that derives me to say that I hate them!

Its the same .. when you talk to a person who respects his religion so much .. why should we go and start offending the people .. yes, it might be fun to do that Jack .. but what are you gaining out of it except hater between the two parties?

Sometimes the truth hurts.

^
^^
You no getty either ... do you?

^ u only getty .. dont you?

What is getty?

^ u only getty .. dont you?Then please tell me ... how do I or anyone offend a religion?

I explained earlier how you are offending a follower of the religion .. then you getty!

I explained earlier how you are offending a follower of the religion .. then you getty!aha ... NO TV for you (http://www.expressindia.com/latest-news/Saudi-divorces-wife-for-watching-male-TV-host-Report/222620/)!

Now did I offend religion or a follower of the religion?

Again is this guy ... the religion?

If so I think I'll offend him ... and gladly do so ... :hyper:

^^ you see, in such cases, most of people conclude that its the religion's fault, while its the individual's weak understanding of it..

If your comment on that previous article is "Because his religion is so backward" then you are offending the religion with a blind comment.

Hey Braiki, but were do we decide where the religion ends and local/personal customs enter ?

For example, in the rape case verdict in Saudi, where the judge ruling under Sharia law DOUBLED the sentence on the victim because she made a big hoohah about the original verdict - is that personal/cultural or religions - after all, this was a Sharia Court verdict ?

When one person mocks your religion and says that it's "stupid" or "dumb" or whatever. So basically being rude.

^ What do you think of scientology?

aha ... NO TV for you (http://www.expressindia.com/latest-news/Saudi-divorces-wife-for-watching-male-TV-host-Report/222620/)!

Now did I offend religion or a follower of the religion?

Again is this guy ... the religion?

If so I think I'll offend him ... and gladly do so ... :hyper:

Do you think he represent any religion??

If so then you no getty!

(sorry I liked the word :p )

لكم دينكم و لي دين
I have my religion and you have yours.

No one is supposed to interfere with one's religion. Full stop.

I think Jack is saying that we can offend the followers of a religion, but "religion" itself is just a concept...you can't offend a concept.

I guess as a matter of terminology, he's right.

Maybe we could rephrase it to make him happy and be a little more precise:

Instead of "offending religions" substitute "being offensive about religions".

I think part of me agrees with what Arby and others are saying: If something is personal and precious to someone, you don't want to make them feel miserable.

But now take Ice Tea for example.

If he tells me that my religion is bad because it worships a man as God, is he being offensive about religion? Or is he just trying to testify to what he believes is an important truth and help me in the process?

Now, he doesn't offend me, because...well, a lot of reasons, but partly because that's just the way I am. I figure he means well and it's an interesting discussion so why get upset?

But some people might get offended.

Is there a way to bring up critical subjects if you think they are important for people and society?

Is there a difference between a serious criticism and, for example, mockery like making a cartoon of Jesus as a gay guy?

Oh man I just found a cartoon that answers this question perfectly. But I won't post it because it has a picture of Muhammad. :mmhmm:

لكم دينكم و لي دين
I have my religion and you have yours.

No one is supposed to interfere with one's religion. Full stop.

Well, I can sympathize with that. But then, what do you think of the cartoon in the first post? What's your reaction to it?

If an idea is bad or silly-seeming, do we have to suddenly stop criticizing if it's called "religion"?

What does Islam say about witchcraft (http://www.englishsabla.com/forum/showpost.php?p=970665&postcount=62)?

Yea I would feel some what offended if that happened to me.

Ice Tea offends me.

Ice Tea offends me.
here. you might need this...



http://www.uchsc.edu/news/bridge/2003/December/images/GasCan.jpg

and this

http://www1.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/2521351/2/istockphoto_2521351_box_of_matches.jpg

I think that classifying a belief as 'wrong', 'silly', 'stupid', 'ridiculous'..etc is offensive. We all have the right to believe in something and I don't think that anyone has the right to tell us otherwise especially if it's in a preachy tone. We can discuss, advise..but to preach is out of the question and it's what I would consider offensive.

I think that classifying a belief as 'wrong', 'silly', 'stupid', 'ridiculous'..etc is offensive. We all have the right to believe in something and I don't think that anyone has the right to tell us otherwise especially if it's in a preachy tone. We can discuss, advise..but to preach is out of the question and it's what I would consider offensive.
I disagree with you nabs... because everyone has a right and should be given a chance to form their own opinions up on everything.

Maybe if I told you I thought your religion is a load of bull crap, I would be tactless.. not offensive. Because in the end, what I think doesn't matter to you, does it?

Maybe, if I wanted to be tactful, I could say.. "You know, I don't really agree/believe in your religion"... I'm saying the exact same thing, just using different words to get my message through. That's tact, or lack of it.

Personally, I don't care if anyone thought God didn't exist, for example. what's important to me is my own belief. It doesn't offend me in the least. Otherwise, I can start claiming to be offended by shintoists, bhuddists and hindus simply because they don't believe in my same god.

This whole "I am offended" thing is dangerous. If we start shutting everyone up that doesn't agree with us from saying what they want to say, we might as well erase Greek mythology and Egyptian history from school books.

I think that classifying a belief as 'wrong', 'silly', 'stupid', 'ridiculous'..etc is offensive. We all have the right to believe in something and I don't think that anyone has the right to tell us otherwise especially if it's in a preachy tone. We can discuss, advise..but to preach is out of the question and it's what I would consider offensive.

I can agree to a certain extent and I think I understand what you mean.

But say someone believes in human sacrifice of children, like the ancient Aztecs did. Do you really think that's immune from criticism? It's an extreme example to make my point...

well...

I think this issue needs to be inspected from two sides… how someone should show disagreement with a religion and also, just as important, how far should the religious push with their shields?

I think showing disagreement has more to do with the style of how to show the disagreement than to do with the point of disagreement. The point is, after all, judged by the arguments from both sides, as for the style there is a right way and a wrong way.

Would the offensive, derogatory style make my argument stronger? I think the answer is, yes, for an immature, low-thinking person. The wise person knows better that such a style is very detrimental to how people perceive his style and intellect.
Regardless of how sound an argument is, the style is the main thing that forces me to or deters me from getting into the discussion/debate/argument.
Sometimes I feel degrading myself wasting time arguing with some people.

I can disagree with whatever in your religion, but I can always opt for a respectful and nice style and you can always tell if I have a point or if I am simply being reproachful.

The other side which is how far the religious can be protective is more complicated. People look differently at their religions, an average Muslim puts his religion before everything and talking bad about his religion is as bad as libeling his household.
In non-Muslim societies, it is quite acceptable to make jokes about prophets, scriptures, God and heaven. In Muslim societies, such jokes are not appreciated and even unspeakable, even the negligent Muslim wouldn’t tell such a joke.
What if a non-Muslim says something about the prophet Mohammed that he thinks is a mild joke while I think of it as harshly blasphemous? In my opinion, I think he should respect my belief and I should do the same to his religion regardless of how he perceives his own religion.
I do not like to tell jokes about the bible even if Christians do, because I do not want a Christian to talk the same about Quran, and that is why we do not smile if someone jokes or talks inappropriately about his wife, not because we don’t like the joke, no…it’s a message that I am not expecting you to enjoy a joke about my wife.

But sometimes and this goes especially to Muslims we are over protective and almost insecure. A few days ago I received one of those circulating emails that says Google translator (http://translate.google.com/translate_t)is offending the prophet, if you type “and al Mohammed” in Google translator, the Arabic translation will read “and Mohammed al Qaeda.” I tried different things and I found out that their translator had a bug, and when I put “in al”, the translation was “in Al-Manamah” and also “the al” is translated as “The Arab Leage” and in many other phrases, the translation was Alabama. That bug had nothing whatsoever with the word ‘Mohammed”, in fact “and al” is what was translated as “Al Qaedah” and the word Mohammed was an addition in both languages.

Also, if I believe my religion is tolerant then I should not expect others to believe the same about my religion, all I can do is to convince them, that is if they are respectful people and have a point. I can not force others to look at my religion the way I look at it.
One more thing that confuses me, is when should a person be deemed blaspheming and what is the suitable punishment?
If we look back in history, we find people who blasphemed Islam and a remarkable one who was almost an apostate or at lease an atheist, was Abu Alaa Al-Maari, who was also a philosopher and one of my favorite poets, his book Risalat Al-Ghufran “The letter of Purification” was later almost exactly imitated by Dante Alighieri in his Divine Comedy. Al-Maarri criticized all religions and he said in his “Letter of Purification” about religions:
دين وكفر وأنباء تقص***وفرقان ينص وتوراة وانجيل
في كل جيل أباطيل يدان بها***فهل تفرد يوما" بالهدى جيل
Which roughly translates as:
A religion, disbelief and narrations being talked about, with Quran, Bible and Torah being recited….
A set of Nonsense is being followed by every generation…have we ever had the unique well-guided generation?…

And in another he says:


عجبت لك سرى وأشياعه
وغسل الوجوه ببوْل البقر
وقول اليهود إلهٌ يحبُّ
رشَّاشَ الدماءِ وربح القتر،
وقول النصارى إلهٌ يضام
ويُظلمُ حيَّاً ولا يُنتَصَر،
وقومٌ أتوا من أقاصي البلاد
لرمي الجمار ولثم الحجر،
فوا عجباً من مقالاتهم
أيعمى عن الحقِّ كل البشر..
(the second word in the first line is Kissra, another bug her combing kaaf+seen)
Which roughly translate as:
Amazed by Kissra (king of Persia) and his people (the Magian) and by those who washes their faces with the cow’s urine (the Hindus)…
And by the talking of the Christian of a God who was abused, oppressed alive and couldn’t help himself…
And by the talking of Jews of a God who likes blood and being stingy…
And by people who come from the furthest countries to throw a stone and kiss another (Muslims in pilgrimage)…
I am amazed by what they talk about, could it be that all humankind are blind about the truth…

That is what he said is his early life before he reverted to Islam and bring other beautiful poems on it.
How could he make it without being condemned to death? Are we protecting Islam better than people who lived in that time? Of Course he was put in jail and that is why he is nicknamed Raheen al-Ma7basain “the inmate of the two prisons” (the real jail and blindness, lost his eyesight at the age of 4).

This tells me something….condemning to death is not justified.
The same go with Abu Nawas the extravagant poet who said:

خلقت الجمال لنا فتنة***وقلت لنا يا عباد اتقون
وأنت جميل تحب الجمال***فكيف عبادك لا يعشقون

You “God” created beauty for us as a sign of your mighty creation, yet you ask us to be pious in front of it…
And you are “the most beautiful who adores beauty”* how do you want your creatures not to love…

*From a Hadith “God is Beautiful and he loves beauty”
---------------------------------------------------------------
“For those who love poetry, another poet switched a few letters to make it Islamically sound and more beautiful than the original:

خلقت الجمال لنا نعمة***وقلت لنا يا عباد اتقون
فإن الجمال تقى ، والتقى***جمال ، ولكن لمن يفقهون
ومن خامر العشق أخلاقه***تأبى الصغار وعاف المجون-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Again would Abu Nawaas be left alone if he said it today?

And by the way, both Abu Nawaas and Al-Maari reverted and both had beautiful sayings on Religion, faith and fate, would they do that if they were killed?

^^

That's a very full and interesting answer. I feel that you are more meditating on the question, which is nice because that's exactly what I am doing!

I'm not sure I have a complete answer myself.

But I'm inclined to think that you're on the right track about style.

A person's family we usually don't need to talk about. Their influence is limited.

A person's ideas--especially if they are shared by many others--we need to be able to talk about. Whether they are religious or not.

But we also have to be sensitive to the fact that a religion is something people are dedicated to.

My guess is that if people who are questioning a religion do it carefully and without insult and the people who hold that religion try not to take offense to easily, the right answer will be arrived at.

BTW, Pygmo, I wasn't pointing this at Islam. It's a general question for all believers and non-believers. I thought of it as a matter of fact because a post was edited and some things judged offensive to Christianity were removed. Probably a sensible decision in light of general policies, but it just raised the question in my mind.

Don’t worry Jeff, my post is not only directed to the thread initiator which is you, I have been contemplating those thoughts since long time and I thought this is a suitable place to put it and the last part is mainly addressed to Muslims who are too protective…

here. you might need this...



http://www.uchsc.edu/news/bridge/2003/December/images/GasCan.jpg

and this

http://www1.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/2521351/2/istockphoto_2521351_box_of_matches.jpg

Are you a terrorist?

Are you a terrorist?
Yes. Infact, I keep them in the boot of the car just incase I'm passing infront of an embassy and suddenly feel offended.

But say someone believes in human sacrifice of children, like the ancient Aztecs did. Do you really think that's immune from criticism? It's an extreme example to make my point...

If we're talking about simply being offensive then yes one shouldn't critisize, but if you don't care whether you're offensive or not then by all means I would actually encourage you to speak your mind.

My point of view was to simply point out how people get offended when it comes to religion.

Oh, I see. Gotcha.

The most practical solution is to convert the whole world to Atheism.

If atheism wasn't a religion, I'd say something offensive about it! :p

That does it ! That was the last straw !

I'm so offended I'm going to find me some rocks.

Pygmalion, excellent post .. I really enjoyed reading your post (esp the poetry part) and I totally agree with you ..

I always hated the fact that muslims focus on circulating emails about how how Cocacola in reserve is "la mohammed la makka" and many other stories.. I think that is so protective .. people are looking for ways to get offended and that is totally uncalled for..
I think respect is how you play the game here .. to respect somone you dont need to beleive in what they beleive in .. you can criticize but in a proper manner .. unfourtountly .. it is rarly followed these days from everyone!

AP, there a gem of perfect truth in your post.

"people are looking for ways to get offended and that is totally uncalled for".

I could not have put it better.

Very true..

It's like that issue of the burger king ice-cream lid with a swirl design that when placed sideways, resembled the word 'allah', in arabic.. now, you know that almost anything with three tall lines could resemble the word!

They made burger kind retract the ice-creams, just incase you were wondering. And I agree.. it is uncalled for.

^^

You know part of this is "groupitis". Every little group competes to try to get the law to give it special recognition and victimhood status.

The Muslims are just doing what so many others do.

Like who exactly ? (other than muslims in more than 90% of the cases)

Who tries to get special priveleges?

Gays.

Women.

Blacks.

It's a whole system ("minority rights") and everybody who can tries to game it. Muslims just try to work the system the same way Jesse Jackson tries to work the system.