I was wondering...

[Shahrazad]

I read these following 2 verses of the Quran today:

5 And remember, Moses said to his people: "O my people! why do ye vex and insult me, though ye know that I am the messenger of Allah (sent) to you?" Then when they went wrong, Allah let their hearts go wrong. For Allah guides not those who are rebellious transgressors.

6 And remember, Jesus, the son of Mary, said: "O Children of Israel! I am the messenger of Allah (sent) to you, confirming the Taur�t (Law) (which came) before me, and giving Glad Tidings of a Messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad (i.e.Mohammed)." But when he came to them with Clear Signs, they said, "This is evident sorcery!" (61 (the ranks): 5-6)

....and it got me wondering:

*Does the existing bible mention that there would be a prophet after Jesus (PBUH)?

*Does it state that Jesus would be the last of prophets?

*Does the bible say anything about it being the last revelation?


It'd be interesting to know, please enlighten me with citations from the bible..

[BrAiKi]

1. The New Testament shows that Jesus was the last one to be sent, there are stories that are an example of God sending prophets and at the end he sent his one and only son, just like a farmer who sent his servants to retrieve something yet they all couldn't or were killed, and at the end he sent his one and only son to retrieve that thing, I dont remember the detailed story..
However, The NT also mentions that when the Jews heard of Prophet John (Yahiya) peace be upon him, they asked him if he was Elijah, but he denied it, then they asked him if he was the Messiah (before knowing about Jesus) but He denied it, and then they asked him if he was The Prophet, he denied it..
This shows, to me, that the Jews were expecting Elijah, The Messiah and THE prophet.. Who that prophet was? Nobody knows.. It is also known for the jews that there were no Holy men or Prophets were sent to them AFTER Christ Passed away..


2. The answer is included in the first point :D


3. The New Testament records that Jesus said that The Scriptures (The Bible is meant here, I think) will not be changed until its completed.. And this is a point of conflict too!

I'll provide the Citations ASAP

[Kara]

The Hebrew Scriptures state that prophesy will reawaken in the end of days. And I suppose if you are Christian then this will be another sign heralding the return of Jesus.

Joel 3:1-2
1 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out My spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions;

2 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out My spirit.

So to answer your questions there is no last prophet.

[Jeff]

Wonderful questions, Shahrazad!

I think Braiki's given an honest and decent presentation, just as would have expected. :) May God grant that I do as good and honest a job of trying to understand Islam as he does in trying to understand Christianity!

The story Braiki talks about to is this one:


33 "Hear another parable. There was a landowner who planted a vineyard, put a hedge around it, dug a wine press in it, and built a tower. Then he leased it to tenants and went on a journey.
34
When vintage time drew near, he sent his servants to the tenants to obtain his produce.
35
But the tenants seized the servants and one they beat, another they killed, and a third they stoned.
36
Again he sent other servants, more numerous than the first ones, but they treated them in the same way.
37
Finally, he sent his son to them, thinking, 'They will respect my son.'
38
But when the tenants saw the son, they said to one another, 'This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and acquire his inheritance.'
39
They seized him, threw him out of the vineyard, and killed him.

Matthew 21: 33-39.

And Braiki is right: the force of this passage shows not just that Jesus comes at the END but that He is something different from those that come before: the Son.

And afterward, He refers to Himself as the Cornerstone, that will be the Cornerstone of the whole building. Nothing about a Prophet coming after.

And Shahrazad, this is the whole point of the New Testament: Jesus is something completely different from what came before. Something New.

Listen to the Letter to the Hebrews:


In times past, God spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through the Prophets;

Before, God spoke through the prophets. See?


in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,

Hebrews 1: 1-2.

Now we are in the last days and there is something different. No more Prophets, but a Son. The Son was there when God created the universe and God created the universe through Him.

Just like the previous passage Braiki mentioned, there was a time of Messengers, but then the time of the Son.

In the old days, the Prophets said, "Thus says the Lord God".

Jesus speaks with His own Voice, "But I say to you."

[Jeff]

But I think the passage from the Letter to the Hebrews also answers your third question: Is the Bible the final revelation?

The answer: Jesus is the final revelation. Before there was a partial revelation. But in Jesus, there is complete and perfect revelation, because God Himself came to us.

The real final revelation is not a Book. The real final revelation is a Person, God made Visible, Who walks among us:


15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
16
For in him were created all things in heaven and on earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things were created through him and for him.
17
He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

Colossians 1: 15-17.


5 Have among yourselves the same attitude that is also yours in Christ Jesus,
6
Who, though he was in the form of God, did not regard equality with God something to be grasped.
7
Rather, he emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, coming in human likeness; and found human in appearance,

Philippians 2: 5-7.


1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2
He was in the beginning with God.
3
All things came to be through him, and without him nothing came to be....

14
And the Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us, and we saw his glory, the glory as of the Father's only Son, full of grace and truth.

It's not a question of "books" for us. It's a question of going backwards.

I respect Islam and I love and respect so many Muslims. And there are many Muslims that love and respect Christians and respect Christianity.

But the picture of history and reality in the Quran and the Bible is very different, despite many deep similarities. Either the Bible is wrong because it adds many things or the Quran is wrong because it leaves many things out.

But sadly, they don't fit together. :(

So what can we do if we want to love God and also love each other? Well, we can keep loving each other in word and action and keep praying for each other and keep trying to understand each other.

We can ask questions like the good questions you are asking too! :) And in the end, God, the Merciful One, will make the best result for us and for the whole world.

[Jeff]

Did I really answer your questions? Maybe not! :p

So, let me try to give brief, simple answers to all of them:

1.*Does the existing bible mention that there would be a prophet after Jesus (PBUH)?


The Bible does not say that there will be a prophet after Jesus. There is a famous passage from the Old Testament that speaks of a "prophet from among your brothers". Exodus 18: 15-22. Muslims think this means Mohammed, Christians think it means Jesus. And there is the interesting passage Braiki mentions, in which the Pharisees ask John the Baptist, "are you Elijah? Are you the Messiah? Are you the Prophet?" (That's at John 1: 19-28.)

But to answer the exact question, nowhere does the Bible say straight out that after Jesus, there will be another prophet. Most specially, it does not present Jesus saying anything about someone named Ahmad.

Jesus says, "I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate (or "Comforter")" and some Muslims believe this refers to Mohammed. But then He says that the Advocate will "be with you always, the Spirit of truth, which the world cannot accept, because it neither sees nor knows it. But you know it, because it remains with you, and will be in you." John 14: 16-17.

This doesn't sound like Mohammed to me or any Prophet.

2. *Does it state that Jesus would be the last of prophets?


No, it doesn't! :)

But the Bible rarely speaks of Jesus as a Prophet. That's where it helps to read my posts above. For us, it's like saying after cars were invented, "But do you think that someone will come up with a new kind of horse-and-buggy in the future that's better than cars?"

"The old things passed away; behold, new things have come."

"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end. I am coming soon!"

3. *Does the bible say anything about it being the last revelation?



No, it doesn't! :) But the Bible isn't a revelation like the Quran.

Because it is not a Book like the Quran.

The Bible is not an "it". The Bible is a "they." The Bible is a huge library of books of different types with many authors over many centuries, not a single piece of writing like the Quran. It doesn't talk about itself the way the Quran does "this Quran."

[Señor Sombra]

. There is a famous passage from the Old Testament that speaks of a "prophet from among your brothers". Exodus 18: 15-22. Muslims think this means Mohammed, Christians think it means Jesus.

That isnt in the book of Exodus, its in Deuteronomy 18:18.

But the verses that discuss "a prophet like Moses" seem to me like they were added in later on. This is because they come in the middle of a text which about laws, i.e. laws about war, murder, modesty, filial piety, essentially laws that concern society at present. It seems like a very strange place to speak about a prophet for a future generation.

It is not uncommon for later editors of a religious text to add something to suit their political/religious viewpoints either. After the death of the prophet, many fake hadiths were forged and circulated to serve the political ideology of the Ummayads, or the Shi3a, or the Abbasid revolutionaries. One example I can think of is the hadith that talks about the revival of Islam, the arrival of Mahdi, coming by people with black banners from Khurasan. Many people think that this referred to the Taleban (who came from Kandahar, not Khurasan), or that the prophecy in this hadith hasnt yet been realised. But the reality is that this hadith was forged by the Abbasid revolutionaries for the sake of legitmacy, and referred to themselves >> i.e. with their black banners, and coming from Khurasan.

So it could be probable that this verse in the Old Testament is such a forgery, used to serve some political purpose in the past. Especially since the earliest manuscripts of the Old Testament are from 150 BC, whereas many scholars believe that it was originally composed around the 7th century BC.

[Shahrazad]

Did I really answer your questions? Maybe not! :p

Yes you did, very informative thank you Jeff & Braiki..:star:


The Bible does not say that there will be a prophet after Jesus. There is a famous passage from the Old Testament that speaks of a "prophet from among your brothers". Exodus 18: 15-22. Muslims think this means Mohammed, Christians think it means Jesus. And there is the interesting passage Braiki mentions, in which the Pharisees ask John the Baptist, "are you Elijah? Are you the Messiah? Are you the Prophet?" (That's at John 1: 19-28.)

But to answer the exact question, nowhere does the Bible say straight out that after Jesus, there will be another prophet. Most specially, it does not present Jesus saying anything about someone named Ahmad.

Jesus says, "I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate (or "Comforter")" and some Muslims believe this refers to Mohammed. But then He says that the Advocate will "be with you always, the Spirit of truth, which the world cannot accept, because it neither sees nor knows it. But you know it, because it remains with you, and will be in you." John 14: 16-17.

This to me is an open interpretation, yes by all means maybe it didn't mean the prophet Mohammed but maybe it did. Are christians open to the fact that "maybe" Mohammed is a genuine prophet?



The Bible is not an "it". The Bible is a "they." The Bible is a huge library of books of different types with many authors over many centuries, not a single piece of writing like the Quran. It doesn't talk about itself the way the Quran does "this Quran."

Do you have "gradings" of the bibles? Like Islam does with Ahadith? As in "strong vs weak?!". I think Senor Sombra has a point when he stated:
It is not uncommon for later editors of a religious text to add something to suit their political/religious viewpoints either. After the death of the prophet, many fake hadiths were forged and circulated to serve the political ideology of the Ummayads, or the Shi3a, or the Abbasid revolutionaries.

We're all human beings after all, someone maybe biased to suit his own needs even if unintentionally just trying to make his opinions stated. Also, can someone write a bible today?! With all due respect but this makes me doubt the authenticity of the bibles. So let me get this right, the first bible? or the "native" one - was it revealed to Jesus's (PBUH) and was spoken out by him? But then translations/interpretations are what the authors write?

One more thing,
What is the Quran and the Prophet Mohammed to the christians?!
Is it considered a man-made religion? As in: Do Hinduism and Islam for the chrsitians fall within the same category?

and do jews believe that christianity is also man-made?!

I thought we all share the notion that Judasim, Chrisitanty and Islam are the revelations of God that were revealed chronologically. I guess I was wrong.

Excuse me, bombarding you with questions, but I want to understand :yes:

[sameerb1]

i usually do not like reading long answers and replies and huge threads...but indeed this one is interesting and love the replies...

Shahrazad asks interesting questions..waiting for the answers....

[Jeff]

That isnt in the book of Exodus, its in Deuteronomy 18:18.

But the verses that discuss "a prophet like Moses" seem to me like they were added in later on. This is because they come in the middle of a text which about laws, i.e. laws about war, murder, modesty, filial piety, essentially laws that concern society at present. It seems like a very strange place to speak about a prophet for a future generation.

It is not uncommon for later editors of a religious text to add something to suit their political/religious viewpoints either. After the death of the prophet, many fake hadiths were forged and circulated to serve the political ideology of the Ummayads, or the Shi3a, or the Abbasid revolutionaries. One example I can think of is the hadith that talks about the revival of Islam, the arrival of Mahdi, coming by people with black banners from Khurasan. Many people think that this referred to the Taleban (who came from Kandahar, not Khurasan), or that the prophecy in this hadith hasnt yet been realised. But the reality is that this hadith was forged by the Abbasid revolutionaries for the sake of legitmacy, and referred to themselves >> i.e. with their black banners, and coming from Khurasan.

So it could be probable that this verse in the Old Testament is such a forgery, used to serve some political purpose in the past. Especially since the earliest manuscripts of the Old Testament are from 150 BC, whereas many scholars believe that it was originally composed around the 7th century BC.


Indeed you are right. It is Deuteronomy. I don't know why I typed Exodus! :p

Well, in order to answer that interesting post thoroughly, I would need an article, not a post! :p

But what you say is not unreasonable. I'm not sure where that leaves the argument over the text between Christians and Muslims, though. If you think that text is invalid, then it doesn't show anything about Christ, but it doesn't show anything about Mohammed either! :p So, it becomes irrelevant to this discussion.

Our theology of Sacred Scripture, though, is different from the Muslim one. We believe in God using true human authors for his revelation and multiple authorship over time is not a problem for us.

Anyway, similar arguments about changes in the text or things that seem out of context are used about the Quran, not just the Bible. If afraid that if you take these modern historico-critical assumptions at face value they make all sacred texts difficult.

Still, I don't see Deuteronomy Chapter 18 as a clear cut case like you say. Verse 9 says when you get to your land you have to act different from the other people there. This is oriented toward the future. Verses 10-11 list particularly horrible things those people do, a list of crimes. Verse 12-14 says God won't permit them to listen to the other people.

We are set up for verse 15...it's a perfect segue. Instead of listening to these other people who do evil, God will send a "prophet like me: to him you will listen", etc., etc.

It seems to flow naturally from the text. There are not "pure legal texts" in Hebrew or any other ancient languages I know... And all the legal texts in the Torah have insertions of various kinds, many more difficult to place in context that this one.

[Jeff]

No, I don't feel bombarded with questions at all! :p The trouble with me is getting me to shut up about religion, not getting me to talk! :) And your questions are very good and very interesting. I hope my answers will be good enough for the questions.

I try to adopt an "explaining" style not a "debating" style when I am talking about religion. That's because debating is too much like fighting and when we fight, I feel like we just get mad at each other and we end up treating religion like a football. It's holy stuff--all of it--so we should treat it prayerfully and carefully, even if we disagree.

But I don't mind if others speak freely. I don't even mind "insulting" things, because I think it's a privelege to know what people think and to have the opportunity to answer. So don't worry that I will get mad. I won't, no matter what you say.





Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff View Post
Did I really answer your questions? Maybe not!
Yes you did, very informative thank you Jeff & Braiki..


Quote:
The Bible does not say that there will be a prophet after Jesus. There is a famous passage from the Old Testament that speaks of a "prophet from among your brothers". Exodus 18: 15-22. Muslims think this means Mohammed, Christians think it means Jesus. And there is the interesting passage Braiki mentions, in which the Pharisees ask John the Baptist, "are you Elijah? Are you the Messiah? Are you the Prophet?" (That's at John 1: 19-28.)

But to answer the exact question, nowhere does the Bible say straight out that after Jesus, there will be another prophet. Most specially, it does not present Jesus saying anything about someone named Ahmad.

Jesus says, "I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate (or "Comforter")" and some Muslims believe this refers to Mohammed. But then He says that the Advocate will "be with you always, the Spirit of truth, which the world cannot accept, because it neither sees nor knows it. But you know it, because it remains with you, and will be in you." John 14: 16-17.


This to me is an open interpretation, yes by all means maybe it didn't mean the prophet Mohammed but maybe it did. Are christians open to the fact that "maybe" Mohammed is a genuine prophet?[/QUOTE]

I don't think you can absolutely "prove" any interpretation of a Holy Book. It's just some things seem more likely and others seem less. The reason why I think this passage is not likely to refer to just a human prophet is: 1.) It talks about a "spirit" and 2.) It says that "spirit" will be "in you."

But we bring our ideas and faith to our interpretations. I am not trying to tell you yours is impossible, just to explain so you can understand why Christians don't see this as applying to Mohammed or any human prophet. This applies, for us, to the Holy Spirit, Who is God's spirit, the third person of the Holy Trinity.

Mohammed as a genuine prophet? Well, it depends what you mean by 'open'. Are you open to the fact that Christ might be God incarnate and your savior who died for you on the cross? Are you open to another prophet after Mohammed?

I suppose we all want to be reasonable, we want to listen, we don't want to have closed minds.

On the other hand, believing in a religion is something that forms you. You don't drop it the way you decide to wear a different dress. You put yourself under it and inside it: you put your "faith" in it. You decide to trust your religion. And you don't start at square one again every day.

Christians have no doctrine about Mohammed, you see. Christians are free to think of him pretty much any way they want. But if they accept Mohammed as a prophet in the way that Muslims do, pure and simple, they will end up believing in a different religion: Islam. That means they won't be Christians any more.

Are Christians free to believe, for example, that Christ was only a prophet? Or that He didn't really die on the cross? Or many other things that Islam teaches? Well, they are free to become Muslims. But those things are not what Christianity teaches.




Quote:
The Bible is not an "it". The Bible is a "they." The Bible is a huge library of books of different types with many authors over many centuries, not a single piece of writing like the Quran. It doesn't talk about itself the way the Quran does "this Quran."

Do you have "gradings" of the bibles? Like Islam does with Ahadith? As in "strong vs weak?!".

No, the Bible is the Word of God. All the Bible is inspired by God. But not all of it is simply "dictated" by God, the way the Quran is. It has human authors as well.

The way I think of it is like a pen in the hand of an artist. The artist paints what he wants, but he does not go against the nature of the pen. So God uses a human author to convey what He wants, but He uses that author's experiences and understandings and limitations, like the artist uses the pen.


I think Senor Sombra has a point when he stated:


Quote:
It is not uncommon for later editors of a religious text to add something to suit their political/religious viewpoints either. After the death of the prophet, many fake hadiths were forged and circulated to serve the political ideology of the Ummayads, or the Shi3a, or the Abbasid revolutionaries.

We're all human beings after all, someone maybe biased to suit his own needs even if unintentionally just trying to make his opinions stated. Also, can someone write a bible today?! With all due respect but this makes me doubt the authenticity of the bibles. So let me get this right, the first bible? or the "native" one - was it revealed to Jesus's (PBUH) and was spoken out by him? But then translations/interpretations are what the authors write?
[/QUOTE]

I agree that that is possible, but I don't agree that it is actually true of the Bible. Just like you will agree that someone could say, "I had a revelation from an angel" and write down what he wants, but you don't accept that that is true of Mohammed.

So, I don't think that that is what the authors of the Bible DID, just like you don't think that's what Mohammed did.

BTW, there is only one Bible. I think I confused you when I said it "isn't a book."

What I meant is that the Bible is really a collection of many different pieces of literature. But we put them between one cover and we refer to them all together as "the Bible", in the singular.

No, no one can write a "bible" today. The revelation of Christ was finished with the Apostles, those who Christ chose and taught and commissioned to teach in His Name. There are no more Apostles to write new scriptures, so none will be written. They passed on the revelation in written and unwritten form when they were alive.

It's a bit confusing, but it's not so different from what Muslims believe. Muslims believe that God revealed the Torah to the Jews and the Injil to the Christians, but they distorted them and then came the perfect Quran. Christians believe that God revealed the Torah to various Jews, and other things to other Jews and then He revealed the Gospels and the other writings to the Apostles, the leaders of early Christianity.

But we believe we have them all as God wished us to have them.

Okay, suppose you have a Bible in your lap. You open it to the first page. What do you find?

You find a book called Genesis. You find a description of God's creation of the World. It's part of what the Jews call "Torah", which means "Law", but this part is a sort of story/history of the beginning of Time. Whoever wrote it--maybe Moses--wrote what God wanted him to write to suit God's purposes perfectly. Jews accept it. Christians accept it.

If you open to the middle, you might find the Book of Isaiah. That was written many years later by the prophet Isaiah and it contains warnings, blessings, condemnations, and predictions of the future, more like the Quran style. But God guided Isaiah or his assistants to write these words just as He guided the earlier writer. Jews accept this. Christians accept it.

If you open to a little before the end, you might find a letter by the Apostle John, who lived with Jesus and was a witness of His Death and Resurrection. John is writing to those who are following him, telling them about Christian teaching. But what he is writing is what God has guided him to write and nothing else. But John is writing with his own style and ideas at the same time. Jews do NOT accept this. Christians do.

See how the Bible is revealed through many people and is many different kinds of literature? But all have God as their primary author.




One more thing,
What is the Quran and the Prophet Mohammed to the christians?!
Is it considered a man-made religion? As in: Do Hinduism and Islam for the chrsitians fall within the same category?

Imagine that somebody came along and said they accepted Mohammed and the Quran but they had a new book from God and a new Prophet. Imagine they said that the Quran had truth in it but it had been changed or that Muslims misunderstood their own religion.

What would you think?

If you can imagine how you would react, then you can see how Jews view both Christians and Muslims and how Christians view Muslims.

A Christian can believe that Mohammed was a great man who understood some very important things and taught some very important truths, but got other things wrong. They can see all the positive and beautiful things in the Quran and respect them.

Or a Christian can believe that Mohammed was a very bad man, an enemy of God.

Just as a Jew can admire much about Jesus and accept Him as a great figure and a wise teacher in many ways...OR...he can simply say He was evil and a false prophet.


and do jews believe that christianity is also man-made?!

I thought we all share the notion that Judasim, Chrisitanty and Islam are the revelations of God that were revealed chronologically. I guess I was wrong.


Well, you have the right idea partially! :) But the earlier ones don't accept the later ones as fully genuine!

I'm afraid that Christians have to accept the fact that Muslims think their Scriptures are distorted and Muslims have to accept the fact that Christians don't accept their Scriptures as revealed directly by God.

Christians have to accept the fact that Muslims reject what we believe is the central truth of God's action in the world: His coming as a man and His saving death and resurrection. And Muslims have to accept the fact that Christians reject their belief that Mohammed was ordained by God to bring revelation to perfection with the Quran.

Still, painful as these things are, we can concentrate on what we believe in common and start from there, in love and respect. God always helps those whose hearts are open and who truly seek Him.


Excuse me, bombarding you with questions, but I want to understand


Like I said, it's no problem. If we want to do God's will in the world, we have to begin by understanding each other! That's why I spend so much time trying to understand the Muslims view of their religion and what it means to their hearts and lives.

Please feel free to ask more. And also feel free to be exhausted from reading all my words and just decide to rest for a while! :p

[Shahrazad]

I try to adopt an "explaining" style not a "debating" style when I am talking about religion. That's because debating is too much like fighting and when we fight, I feel like we just get mad at each other and we end up treating religion like a football. It's holy stuff--all of it--so we should treat it prayerfully and carefully, even if we disagree.

Yah same here, I'd rather call it conversing to make sense of it all :). I haven't "copy pasted" all these questions or am I expecting a specific answer to form questions marks on, I'm genuinely trying to understand :yes:



I don't think you can absolutely "prove" any interpretation of a Holy Book. It's just some things seem more likely and others seem less. The reason why I think this passage is not likely to refer to just a human prophet is: 1.) It talks about a "spirit" and 2.) It says that "spirit" will be "in you."

You said "not likely to refer..." means it's not a clear cut definition of "spirit". Ok maybe it's not the prophet maybe the "spirit" in you is the new way of life "Islam". Again I'm talking from my perspective, I feel Islam is "in me" in all aspects of my life!



Mohammed as a genuine prophet? Well, it depends what you mean by 'open'. Are you open to the fact that Christ might be God incarnate and your savior who died for you on the cross? Are you open to another prophet after Mohammed?

This is quite an open answer! I still can't take it. Believing that the Christ died on the cross or that He was God's son won't change how I practice my faith today. But believing in your case believing that there was a prophet after Jesus would definitely change your practices because you'd be following/applying what the last revelation from the same God revealed.

Let me tell you how I see the three religions "Judasim - Christianity - Islam"

Just imagine them as a book with 1st edition (Judasim), 2nd edition (Christianity), 3rd edition (Islam). Now believing in the 3rd edition book would only mean that it's a completion of the previous editions!



On the other hand, believing in a religion is something that forms you. You don't drop it the way you decide to wear a different dress. You put yourself under it and inside it: you put your "faith" in it. You decide to trust your religion. And you don't start at square one again every day.

Trusting your religion 100% is great, it keeps us on the right track day in day out. However, we're required to know and learn. I understand because I trust my religion blindly, but that did not come out of nowhere it came with learning and convincing.


Christians have no doctrine about Mohammed, you see. Christians are free to think of him pretty much any way they want. But if they accept Mohammed as a prophet in the way that Muslims do, pure and simple, they will end up believing in a different religion: Islam. That means they won't be Christians any more.

This impressed me! So you are indeed open to accepting Islam. But I don't understand what's holding you christians back from accepting it. It doesn't mean they won't be christians anymore, it just means that they believe there is a later edition to the bible that they're ought to believe in as a completiton to their religion/faith.

Just as the example of 1st-2nd-3rd edition. Logically, I'd assume christians are more like to understand this concept, since they came in the "middle" of these two God revelations. If christians believe that christianity came to complete what the prophets before Jesus came for, then how come they don't accept that there "can" "maybe" be a completion to christianty as such?!

I assume that in particular is why more christians than jews convert to Islam.

Check this verse from the Quran:


[COLOR="SeaGreen"]This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favor upon you, and have chosen for you Isl�m as your religion.(Al-Maeda 5:3)





No, the Bible is the Word of God. All the Bible is inspired by God. But not all of it is simply "dictated" by God, the way the Quran is. It has human authors as well.

The way I think of it is like a pen in the hand of an artist. The artist paints what he wants, but he does not go against the nature of the pen. So God uses a human author to convey what He wants, but He uses that author's experiences and understandings and limitations, like the artist uses the pen.


No, no one can write a "bible" today. The revelation of Christ was finished with the Apostles, those who Christ chose and taught and commissioned to teach in His Name. There are no more Apostles to write new scriptures, so none will be written. They passed on the revelation in written and unwritten form when they were alive.

Does the bible state John and equivalent within it's scripts? Or when would the human authors stop writing?! How do you know they're well over?!

Also, If God sent his son "Jesus" as chrisitans believe why would you need human authors after that to complete the book?!



If you open to a little before the end, you might find a letter by the Apostle John, who lived with Jesus and was a witness of His Death and Resurrection. John is writing to those who are following him, telling them about Christian teaching. But what he is writing is what God has guided him to write and nothing else. But John is writing with his own style and ideas at the same time. Jews do NOT accept this. Christians do.

That also is what Islam does NOT accept. John may well be a highly respected figure at the time, he wrote what he believes. Generations that followed took them as facts that are integrated within the bible. Maybe that's where all the confusion came about!

Take Ahadeeth for example, they were written by human authors - but we did not stop at that, there was tough scrutiny to check all Ahadeeths and also gradings to check what's genuine & what's not.



Imagine that somebody came along and said they accepted Mohammed and the Quran but they had a new book from God and a new Prophet. Imagine they said that the Quran had truth in it but it had been changed or that Muslims misunderstood their own religion.

What would you think?

I would not accept it whatsoever, but for one reason - Islam clearly states in both the Quran and the Ahadeeth that it is the last revelation and no other religion will come after it to complete it. (Check the verses above). If it wasn't for this, maybe I'd question the new religion or the new book.



I'm afraid that Christians have to accept the fact that Muslims think their Scriptures are distorted and Muslims have to accept the fact that Christians don't accept their Scriptures as revealed directly by God.

Ok let me ask you in person, just to get a feel of what you or other christians believe. What do you believe the prophet Mohammed was?! For example, it was all just pure sorcery of a man who wanted fame & power?



Please feel free to ask more. And also feel free to be exhausted from reading all my words and just decide to rest for a while! :p

LoL, exhausted indeed... I needed a few hours for the words to digest :) Now it's your turn to convince me more if you don't want to receive more questions :p

I thank you so much for answering my questions with an open mind and heart. May God guide us all to the right path (Amen) :star:

[Jeff]

Very good job! :)

The point about the Spirit is very nice. But for me it is not convincing. After all, Islam is not Mohammed the Prophet and that is the issue. Is Christ promising another prophet or is he just talking about Islam? And if he is talking about Islam, why does he say he will "send" it? Muslims say he and his followers were already Muslims.

The Spirit, he says in this passage is an Advocate, a Comforter, clearly a person. Later he says that the Spirit will lead us into all truth. The Spirit dwells in our bodies and makes them Temples of God. The Spirit descended upon the Apostles at Pentecost and made them.

Besides, Jesus elsewhere breathes on the Apostles and says "Receive the Holy Spirit". 'Spirit' means 'breath' or 'life' and this Holy Spirit is the Spirit or Life of God Himself.

But I think you are missing the central point, which is not an argument over this or that passage by itself.

I am just trying to show you how things appear to Christians, not to argue which is true, so don't take offense.

I don't think it's true that if you accepted the teaching of Christianity, you could go on being a Muslim. Islam says that Christ is only a prophet. Christianity says that Christ is God Himself.

Islam says that God's main idea is to give us laws and tell us to follow them and then we will be good and satisfy Him. Christianity says that we have to be perfect to satisfy God through laws and yet we can't be perfect: we are sinners.

Christianity says that God Himself came to save us through showing us how to live and to die and that that perfect death of One Who was both God and Man defeated the death in us and opened a new age of life--a new spiritual life of grace for us. This is not at ALL the teaching of Islam.

It's difficult to understand maybe if you've never heard about it before. But we are talking about a Living Person who shares His Life with us as we conform ourselves to him.

Islam doesn't look to us like a Step 3. It looks like going back from Step 2 to Step 1. And the time for Step 1 is over. As Christ says in the New Testament, you can't put New Wine in Old Bottles. The time of the Prophets is past. And there is no going back. It is a Whole New World now. It is not the Old Covenant of the Law, it is the New Covenant of Jesus Christ which is an "eternal covenant". Hebrews 13: 20. This dispensation is not temporary, it is final, that's what 'eternal' means. I don't know what could be more clear than that.

So, when I look at Islam, I see many beautiful things, but things that are incomplete. If I were to become a Muslim, I would be pretending I don't know things that I know. I wouldn't be gaining something, I would be abandoning everything. And that I cannot ever do.

The Quran seems to me to be inviting me to LESS, not to MORE. And it seems to miss the point of Jesus Christ entirely. So how can I accept it as a completion of Stage 2? It is a rejection of Stage 2.

You said you reject everything after Mohammed because the Quran says clearly that it is the last. But if the next religion says that that was added and the Quran is distorted, then you don't have to stick to that.

I reject things that come after Christ and change what his followers have taught and believed since before there were Muslims because the things that come afterward subtract and misunderstand, they don't add. God spoke to us through prophets, but in the end times, He has spoken to us through His Son. His Son is the full and complete expression of what He is. His Son is God Himself. And we have Jesus God's Son with us still to this day.

What can come after the full and complete expression, the Word of God that is God Himself in the flesh who has accomplished our salvation "once and for all"?

Can I rely on the Bible to teach me the truth? Yes, because the Church, which is Christ's own body, says that it is the most perfect written expression of God's teaching. And it comes from the Apostles about whom Christ said, "He who hears you hears Me."

If I believe that there was a time of prophets, but now a time of the Son....if I believe that there a time of Law, but now there is a time of Grace...if I believe that we were all lost in Sin, but now Christ has accomplished our salvation once and for all, I don't need anyone to tell me that there isn't a next prophet bringing a better book of laws. If I ask "Can there be another prophet?", well, I've missed the point 100%.

Is it "possible" in logic that the Apostle John got it wrong? Sure. Is it "possible" in logic that Mohammed transformed beautiful things he had read or imagined and believed they were directly from God? Sure.

These things are "possible", but that doesn't mean that they are true or that Christians accept the first or Muslims accept the second.

Muslims are book centered and you look for all the answers in a book: the Quran. We Catholics are church centered and we look for our answers--including how to understand our book--in the Living Church of Jesus Christ, which speaks with His Voice.

What about Mohammed? Why should I have to have a fixed opinion about Mohammed? Even though the time of God's Prophets is over--meaning they are not the Leaders of His People and the Primary teachers anymore--that doesn't mean that God doesn't try to lead people and they try to respond. Sometimes they get some of it right but not all, for a variety of reasons.

Muslims want me to praise Mohammed unreservedly. Some others want me to view him entirely negatively. I can't do either one. What I completely do not believe is that he is the representative of Stage 3.

But I am at a disadvantage here. I have made it my rule on Sabla not to dispute directly and at length against Mohammed or the Quran. I will explain what Christians believe and why we believe it. But I do not want to risk causing my friends pain or anger or creating misunderstandings by criticizing what they love. I believe they are doing the best they can--most of them--to come close to God and that these are the things that they have used to do so. So I have to honor what they revere as Holy, even if I cannot agree with them. And I want to accent the positive, not to stress the negative.

To you it seems like I am resisting something maybe or that I do not understand. But to me it looks like you are resisting something or that you do not understand. I have listened to Muslims and read a lot, a lot, a lot about Islam. I have prayed beside Muslims for the same things. I am not a stranger to the teaching of Islam or to its beauties. But I have never for an instant thought, "maybe they are right." Never! Even the idea makes me smile! The more I get to know Muslims the more I respect them and what is in their hearts. But the more sure I am of the truth of the Catholic Faith.

I always feel that they are missing something precious and deep beyond all telling. I see the Light shining, but they cannot see it.

So what can I do? All I can do is to try to love them! And it's easy because so many of them are very easy to love and respect. I think perhaps our arguments on both sides don't work so well; they don't convince us. Maybe it's just because there are too many arguments and we can't listen to them all, they go on and on and on. :p

And the arguments become fights and we quarrel and we think about winning instead of about the bright light of God. So, in the end, the most powerful thing we can do--all of us--if we want to serve God is to get out of the way and try to let Him work through us. And since He is Almighty and Full of Mercy, He will triumph in the end. You pray for me and I will pray for you and we will leave it in the hands of our Maker and Judge.

[Shahrazad]

And the arguments become fights and we quarrel and we think about winning instead of about the bright light of God. So, in the end, the most powerful thing we can do--all of us--if we want to serve God is to get out of the way and try to let Him work through us. And since He is Almighty and Full of Mercy, He will triumph in the end. You pray for me and I will pray for you and we will leave it in the hands of our Maker and Judge.

Very wise of you (as usual) Jeff. You put it really well, I from my side see a beatiful light shining upon me and before my own eyes, and oh I wish so hard that all can see this light!

Quran to me is a comforter in the worst of times and a cheerer in the happiest of times. It makes me cry like I never did and it fills my heart with utmost pleasure like I never felt before!

When I hear the prophets' (all of them) stories, my only wish is that I was alive at the time to witness their struggle and stand firm right beside them when all are against them (Peace be upon them all).

It saddens me when I see conflicts arise, it hurts me to see how many people today fail to understand this holy, gracious and magnificent faith. Who's fault is it?! I can never say... after all life is all a test!

That's a human instinct I have, wanting with eagerness to share this faith to everyone.
But, and I qoute from the Quran:

"To you be your Way, and to me mine" (109:6)

"It is true thou wilt not be able to guide every one whom thou lovest; but Allah guides those whom He will and He knows best those who receive guidance" (28:56)

... and we should live by this verse:

"O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise each other). Verily the most honored of you in the sight of Allah is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things)" (49:13)

---

I'll also leave you with this link that I came across today and immediately thought of our (i won't call it debate) but conversation :)

Unity

[Jeff]

You chose your Quran verses well! :)

They speak of things that can touch the heart and appeal to the soul without bringing up too many disputatious issues.

I am never offended when people witness to me of their faith, whether they are calm and gracious like you or more emotional like Haroun or more threatening like Ice Tea. In each case, I find the commitment to the idea of Truth as something coming from Above to be something very important that we have in common and too many modern people have no interest in.

I will listen to the You Tube with interest...

[Kamakazy]

Shahrazad & Jeff, what have you learnt from the above?

[Jeff]

Well, the facts aren't new to me, nor the point of view. There is a slightly different slant to this question though.

It makes sense from a Muslim point of view to ask, "How do you know, there won't be another prophet?" From a Christian point of view, it's like people lighting candles because the electricity isn't on, but then the electricity comes on. Will someone say, "How do you know we shouldn't light another candle?" Well, the need for candles is past, that's all. Now you have the Light Itself.

But what I have encountered once again is the integrity and sincerity of the convinced Muslim. It's always a beautiful thing to find a commitment to truth.

The main thing that these discussion show is that we often bring a set of preconceptions to these matters that shape our questions. If I leave this discussion able to make Shahrazad's arguments and she can make mine, then we have both learned something.

What always impresses me about Braiki is that he often comes into the discussion and says, "This is what the Christians might say..." and then he does a good job of making the Christian case on a particular question.

If you are not able to do that--if you don't understand the other side on THEIR terms--then you can't be fair.

When we ask good questions like Shahrazad asked, it's like pulling on a string. You get one question after another, because you are touching on deep issues and a very different way of looking at things.

So, I guess in the end what I learned again is what I usually learn from these discussions if they are good (and this one was good):

1. Islam and Christianity are very close; but also

2. Islam and Christianity are very different.

[Shahrazad]

The questions I posted in the beginning of the thread were genuine, I had read the 2 verses posted earlier and it got me wondering. I brought up the questions to see if I'm missing something from the Christians that I never knew before, or maybe a christian will open up to the fact that Mohammed is a genuine prophet.

Once I got the replies from Jeff, it did not convince me enough and the thread somehow took another turn; what Muslims believe verses what Christians believe!

To me it's a simple 1st - 2nd - 3rd edition of God's revelations.
To Jeff, it's not as simple as that. He'd be winding back towards the beginning if he believed in Islam, for a good reason - the time of prophets had been well over when God sent his son.

The facts I got from this thread are not new to me, but I got something new out of it, i wouldn't want to call them facts but more like feelings. I learnt that as much as I'm attached to my religion, someone else can be attached to his religion that he is not open to a new one. Also, what is a definite answer for me may not be a definite answer for someone else. Moreover, what I find convincing is not necessarily logic to others.

I am blind to Jeff's light as much as he is blind to my light. Sources of light differ but at the end we both are good people with pure hearts with infinite respect to others only because of this light that we have. Without this light we're lost in a world of confusion and absent morality!

[Jeff]

Ameeen!

You are a wise person and a lovely one and your sister, Arabian Princess, is too. Are all your family like that? You must be a happy group! :)

Even if we know the Truth in one way (or we are sure we do), God's "brain" is infinitely bigger than we are. In a way, we are like children. If we are too open-minded, we will lose the truth. But if we are too narrow-minded we miss many other things He wants to teach us. I think you, Shahrazad, understand that.

We don't really live in a world of ideas. We live in a world of PERSONS. And if we learn to see and appreciate them as huge masterpieces of Allah and love them the way He loves them, we will find that He is leading us more and more.

So in the end, what I learned more than anything else is that there is one more wonderful person on Sabla: Shahrazad! :)

Eid Mubarak to you and to all.