View Full Version : Discussing: Sex Crimes and the Vatican
Due to some copyright issue, another thread linking to the documentary by the BBC, "Sex Crimes and the Vatican" was unfortunately closed.
But the documentary has become well-known and even if you can't watch it on YouTube, you can read about it here:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/panorama/5389684.stm
or you can read the whole transcript of the film here:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/panorama/5402928.stm
I think it's much better to discuss all this openly...as a Catholic I don't think it's a good idea to try to hide stuff like this: it creates the wrong impression.
So, read the links if you want and discuss. Or ask questions if you have heard about the piece.
I especially hope those from the other thread will contribute. I want to give others a chance to say what they think or ask what they want before I jump in! :)
amo_l_oman
01-06-07, 08:49 AM
There's nothing to hide
Evidences are all there : names and facts
Doct Hitman thread must be reopened and this merged with it : no way it was offensive as it was based on news well acknowledged and admitted by Catholic Church
The main point in this sad story is that the Church tried to hide it with tricks :
the famous Crimen Sollicitationis says that everything about these issues discussed during a trial in canonic court, must be kept secret
It dsnt says directly that the victim of sex abuse cannot go to a general court of his country, but it hiddenly suggests it
In the beginning it was few episodes so the Church just tried to cover them by moving priests from parish to parish
Now evidences have become too many
They tried to hide it and kept it secret but we can see child abuse crimes by priests increasing day after day. I wonder how many kids were sexually abused so far, maybe millions!
But what you really have here is an explicit written policy to cover up cases of child sexual abuse by the clergy to punish those who would call attention to these crimes by the churchmen.
You've got a written policy that says that the Vatican will control these situations and you also have I think clear written evidence of the fact that all they are concerned about is containing and controlling the problem.
Nowhere in any of these documents does it say anything about helping the victims.
The only thing it does is say that they can impose fear on the victims and punish the victims for discussing or disclosing what happened to them.
It's all controlled by the Vatican and at the top of the Vatican is the Pope so Joseph Ratzinger was in the middle of this for most of the years that Crimens was enforced he created the successor to Crimen and now he is the Pope this all says that the policy and systematic approach has not changed.
Cardinal Ratzinger, now as Pope, could tomorrow get up and say: 'Here's the policy: full disclosure to the civil authorities, absolute isolation and dismissal of any accused and proven and convicted clerics, complete openness and transparency, complete openness of all financial situations, stop all barriers to the legal process and completely co-operate with the civil authorities everywhere.'
Something related:
Sex, Priests, and Secret Codes
(http://www.bonusbooks.com/bookpage.asp?BookID=1304)
Sexual abuse of minors and vulnerable adults by Catholic clergy burst onto the American scene in 1984. Revelations about such abuse since then have confirmed that this tragedy is not limited to the U.S. Catholic Church, nor is it a new phenomenon that grew out of so-called secularizing trends of the late twentieth century. Sex, Priests, and Secret Codes clearly demonstrates a deep-seated problem that spans the Church’s history. This collection of documents from official and unofficial sources begins its survey in 60 CE and concludes with the contemporary scandal. It reveals an institution that has tried to come to grips with this devastating internal problem from its earliest years. At times circumspect and at other times open and direct, Church leaders tried a variety of means to rein in the various violations of clerical celibacy.
The sexual abuse crisis is not isolated from the questions of the celibate practice of all Catholic clergy and the moral questions that involve marriage and all human sexual behaviors. These are the main, yet unspoken, reasons why sexual abuse has been such an inflammatory and dangerous issue for the hierarchy.
One foundation of their power and control rests on the celibacy of the clergy. That area of religious ideal and personal practice has heretofore been shrouded in secrecy and taboo, certainly for the laity. That is no longer the situation. For the first time, certainly since the Protestant Reformation, the sexual life and adjustment of bishops and priests is open for discussion by lay people. This is the task of the new century: Clergy and lay people need to talk together about sexuality and how it affects them all.
The Church abuse scandal of the contemporary era, rather than seen as a new challenge, is actually the catalyst for a complex process that is forcing the official Church to redefine its ideology of sexuality, its responsibility to its members and its role in society.
The problem of clerical sexual abuse is huge and international in scope. Co-author Thomas P. Doyle has interviewed somewhere around 2,000 victims of clerical sexual abuse in the U.S. alone. Co-author Sipe conducted a twenty-five year landmark study of sexuality and celibacy in the American priesthood. A former priest and monk, Patrick J. Wall currently serves as a consultant on a number of clerical sexual abuse cases in the U.S
And a comment about this book, what is OBL to do with this :rolleyes:
Congratulations, Fr. Doyle. This book should be read by ALL Catholics and all people. You are the prophet who warned and showed by scholarly investigations and statistics about priest pedophiles to John Paul II -- but like Pontius Pilate, he washed his hands and did nothing to stop the priest-pedophilia happening right under his Holy See and Holy Nose. A true saint can smell sin from a mile away -- but "saint" John Paul II the Great smelled and saw priest pedophilia throughout his papacy -- by covering it up within his powerful papal hands. Indeed, he showed by example that absolute power corrupts absolutely.
John Paul II is the main responsible leader of these clergy abuses because from 1985 to 2005, that is 20 years, he led the COVER-UP of this most heinous crime against children within the Catholic Church. He KNEW all about it, he had all the papal powers to STOP it and he did NOTHING...like Pontius Pilate who did nothing to stop the crucifixion of Christ
See the John Paul II Millstone at --- www.jp2m.Blogspot.com ---- to learn more of JPII's papal role in these crimes.
Compare the CRIMES and their VICTIMS in America
Victims - Attackers - Responsible Leaders
Pearl Harbor - 3,000 victims - 170 planes - Admiral Yamamoto
WTC & 9/11 attacks - 5,000 victims - 19 Muslims - Osama bin Laden
USA Priest Pedophilia - 12,000 victims - 5,148 priests - John Paul II and Benedict XVI
Now count how many more victims without voice of justice -- in the UK, Mexico, Latin America, Africa
My question: What did the Catholic Church do to counter the essence of problem? Why do these sex crimes happen? Why Children?
amo_l_oman
02-06-07, 07:48 AM
Q for doctors :cute:
It happens also in many madrassas, is not only problem for Church
My question: What did the Catholic Church do to counter the essence of problem? Why do these sex crimes happen? Why Children?
My guess because priests can't get married so they take advantage of innocent childern to satisfy their basic sexual desiers and also can't resist the temptation of women who come to confess.
Q for doctors :cute:
It happens also in many madrassas, is not only problem for Church
Well, then its not only in madrassas, its all over. But when a religious figure commits such thing, then its different. So my question remains.
My guess because priests can't get married so they take advantage of innocent childern to satisfy their basic sexual desiers and also can't resist the temptation of women who come to confess.
Yeah thats what I thought of, but would the church ever re-consider the marriage thing for priests?
Ice tea, unless you are a social worker or know anyone that is, I suggest you stop spewing crap like that.
Peadophilia has nothing to do with being sexually active with adults or not and I have provided you with links proving it before.
There are two types of peadophilia. One, is where the adult doesn't think it is a wrong thing to have sex with kids. The other is when they feel guilt, because they have this sense that it is a wrong thing to do.
There are millions of peadophiles who are not priests and have active sex lives with their partners. One of these people is a good friend of mine. She found out, a few years after she broke up with her partner, that during the time they were together, he had been molesting boys. And they were sexually active. And he was not a priest. And now he is in prison.
So, what you are saying is completely wrong, as I have told you countless times before. It's up to you now whether you educate yourself about it or not.
Re: Church and sex crimes.
I agree with most of you in here that the church should not hide the crimes and should instead take those members of its clergy who break the law to the police. Otherwise, I do not blame anyone losing credibility in the Church.
The clergy is not above the law. Well, it isn't anymore and the Church should accept that it is not ontop of the state anymore either. It should stop hiding these people and should also provide support for the victims.
It isn't safe to be all alone with some Catholic priests
Well, then its not only in madrassas, its all over. But when a religious figure commits such thing, then its different. So my question remains.
Yeah thats what I thought of, but would the church ever re-consider the marriage thing for priests?
When a religious figure commits something like that it is as bad as a teacher, as bad as a doctor, as bad as a nurse, a policeman, a parent, uncle etc..
These are people we are taught to trust when we are kids.
THAT's what makes it worse. Because you expect these people to do it the LEAST.
But in a great majority of pedophile cases, the aggressor is a trusted or at least known person to the victim.
Fengy, I want to believe you but with such statistics and rising it's difficult.
USA Priest Pedophilia - 12,000 victims - 5,148 priests - John Paul II and Benedict XVI.
Now count how many more victims without voice of justice -- in the UK, Mexico, Latin America, Africa
It isn't safe to be all alone with some Catholic priests
No. Do you know what is not safe? Not teaching your kids to recognise what is wrong. Not teaching your kids about what they should do if anyone starts to act "funny". If they do something improper, like undress infront of them.
And, what's even worse is having kids who feel afraid to come to you to talk about something like that.
Fengy, I want to believe you but with such statistics and rising it's difficult.
hahahahaha....
Math isn't your strong point I guess eh?
I'm so sure you WANT to believe me. Explaining something to you is like talking to a brick wall. Sorry. :)
No. Do you know what is not safe? Not teaching your kids to recognise what is wrong. Not teaching your kids about what they should do if anyone starts to act "funny". If they do something improper, like undress infront of them.
And, what's even worse is having kids who feel afraid to come to you to talk about something like that.
What I can think of is that the priest will tell the victim, don't worry your sins will be forgiven and I will give you a green ticket to heaven, so they believe him.
No. Do you know what is not safe? Not teaching your kids to recognise what is wrong. Not teaching your kids about what they should do if anyone starts to act "funny". If they do something improper, like undress infront of them.
And, what's even worse is having kids who feel afraid to come to you to talk about something like that.
Even adults have been molested & raped, let alone the kids
When a priest comes to a mature lady saying that God asked him to have sexual intercourse with her & then she gets deceived by such excuses, I don't blame the kids but their parents for letting them all alone with Catholic priests
hahahahaha....
Math isn't your strong point I guess eh?
I'm so sure you WANT to believe me. Explaining something to you is like talking to a brick wall. Sorry. :)
So you are saying such numbers are small, strange :rolleyes:.
Not only that we keep on hearing such stories over and over again.
Sorry you don't have a valid argument to believe you.
Even adults have been molested & raped, let alone the kids
When a priest comes to a mature lady saying that God asked him to have sexual intercourse with her & then she gets deceived by such excuses, I don't blame the kids but their parents for letting them all alone with Catholic priests
Who's blaming the kids?
People should stop being naive. And parents should teach their kids to be street wise. Not just with the obvious stranger, but also with the trusted people in their lives.
I'm sure your part of the world has an equally perfectly hidden pedophillic pandora's box. So don't put down your guard just yet.
So you are saying such numbers are small, strange :rolleyes:.
Not only that we keep on hearing such stories over and over again.
Sorry you don't have a valid argument to believe you.
Oh, and you have a valid argument derived from some comment someone left on someone's blog?
Yeah right. :hyper:
I know truth hurts!
Ofcourse if the Vatican didn't cover the abuse cases then it would have reached more than what is posted in that link (not blog).
I know truth hearts!
Ofcourse if the Vatican didn't cover the abuse cases then it would have reached more than what is posted in that link (not blog).
Yes, it hearts indeed.
I wasn't aware that the vatican abducted the victims and threw them into mass graves though to make sure word never gets out.
And I also think your trusted sources (lol) must be as accurate as your English.
When a religious figure commits something like that it is as bad as a teacher, as bad as a doctor, as bad as a nurse, a policeman, a parent, uncle etc..
Indeed, but teachers, doctors or policemen do have the choice to get married, whatever perverted thought they come up with, it something to do with them. On the other hand you tell a priest that you are not supposed to get married and then question his sexual acts?
Yes, it hurts indeed.
I wasn't aware that the vatican abducted the victims and threw them into mass graves though to make sure word never gets out.
And I also think your trusted sources (lol) must be as accurate as your English.
What do you want worse than this:
But what you really have here is an explicit written policy to cover up cases of child sexual abuse by the clergy to punish those who would call attention to these crimes by the churchmen.
You've got a written policy that says that the Vatican will control these situations and you also have I think clear written evidence of the fact that all they are concerned about is containing and controlling the problem.
Nowhere in any of these documents does it say anything about helping the victims.
The only thing it does is say that they can impose fear on the victims and punish the victims for discussing or disclosing what happened to them.
And I know my arabic better than your english! :rolleyes:
Indeed, but teachers, doctors or policemen do have the choice to get married, whatever perverted thought they come up with, it something to do with them. On the other hand you tell a priest that you are not supposed to get married and then question his sexual acts?
*ugh!*
(this is pay back for the alcohol-gov thing isn't it? :hyper: )
Paedophilia has NOTHING to do with grown up sex or the lack of it. It has all to do with how a grown person finds a child attractive. That is a paedo psyche.
Are you celibate? I imagine so. Do you find kids sexually attractive because you are not allowed to have sex with a grown woman for now?
Priesthood is a chosen vocation. If a man cannot overcome his desire for a sex life, he can leave the priesthood and get married. It's been done before!
Being celibate (not having sex) does not explain repetitively finding kids attractive in a sexual manner.
LOOL, no its not a payback :P
Then explain why kids mostly? They just can't be all perverted! Can they?
What do you want worse than this:
And I know my arabic better than your english! :rolleyes:
Oh a threat is the worst???
Which peadophiles do NOT threaten their victims?
And also, can you provide a trusted source for the figures you presented? And what are those figures? Are they cases that went to court? Reported cases? Cases that have clear evidence or someone's estimate?
If you want to use numbers to back your argument, they better be solid and not some flimsy "estimate" someone made using a mathematical formula.
Don't just throw numbers. Explain them.
LOOL, no its not a payback :P
Then explain why kids mostly? They just can't be all perverted! Can they?
All?
The figure Icetea quoted is approx 4% of all male clergy. And a 25% of all males around the world will have pedophillic fantasies.
90% of these priests had been accused of abusing kids in the same year they became priests. So, this proves that being without sex is not the cause of the problem. They found kids sexually attractive before.
Is the picture clearer? ;)
If you want to see the study you may find it interesting. Also note that the word "alleged" is used throughout. Because we can all say we've been abused by a priest. So, it will just be estimates and assumptions.
Source: http://www.bishop-accountability.org/reports/2004_02_27_JohnJay/index.html#prev1
Is this the right place to open a discussion on child abuse by moslem clerics or would a separate topic be required ?
I believe the two are related.
Although in the case of madrassas, you won't be able to rely on the old, tired argument of priests not being allowed to be married.
Even adults have been molested & raped, let alone the kids
When a priest comes to a mature lady saying that God asked him to have sexual intercourse with her & then she gets deceived by such excuses, I don't blame the kids but their parents for letting them all alone with Catholic priests
Please provide evidence of this claim or delete this post.
You have tried this same lie once before.
Its interesting to see that there was an uprise in cases around 1974? Infact most of the cases were around that time, I wonder why?
Please provide evidence of this claim or delete this post.
You have tried this same lie once before.
Yes, I have tried this truth (http://www.englishsabla.com/forum/showpost.php?p=859044&postcount=22) before
Yes, I have tried this truth (http://www.englishsabla.com/forum/showpost.php?p=859044&postcount=22) before
video no longer available. oops. :rolleyes:
you're gonna need a better source now Hitman. :p
Hmmm, alright when I have time I might get another source, however many have seen the videos & the same accusation was reported & the case was closed after the videos were provided
amo_l_oman
02-06-07, 07:53 PM
video no longer available. oops. :rolleyes:
Who knows why ... :rolleyes:
Who knows why ... :rolleyes:
I'm thinking like you too, but it's worth noting, since youtube changed ownership, many videos have gone missing...
I think the video is no longer there cause its a copy right of the main broadcasting network. You will find the same applied even to a show like "Desperate House Wives", youtube does not have the right to show that and therefore it removes these things.
Ok since we haven't got those videos anymore & till I get the chance to search something similar, let's share some stories on how Catholic priests can abuse authority using false theology:
Roman Catholic priests and bishops in several parts of the world have been exploiting their religious authority to obtain sexual favours from nuns, in some cases resorting to rape and subsequently obliging the victims to seek an abortion
The Aids epidemic in Africa has led to nuns being seen as a potential source of safe sex
In one community 29 nuns are reported to have become pregnant after sexual relations with priests, but when the mother superior raised the problem with her archbishop she was removed from her post. One priest is said to have induced a nun he had impregnated to have an abortion and when she died during the operation he celebrated her funeral mass
Another priest is reported to have been driven from his village by gunfire when the local men got fed up with the way he abused his power with their women
Read details : Catholic priests abusing nuns for sex (http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,460287,00.html)
Allow me to add a few points in here that are crucial to the topic you wish to discuss.
"Many African women have been raised to consider themselves inferior to men, and so find it difficult to say no to requests for sexual favours by priests, who are seen as authority figures, according to a report by Sister Marie McDonald"
"The priests are better educated than the nuns and sometimes use false theological arguments to persuade them, suggesting, for example, that sex between two celibate religious does not violate their vows of celibacy, she said. "
"Father Bernardo Cervellera, editor of the missionary news agency Fides, said the problem was largely confined to Africa, where the ideal of celibacy met resistance from cultural beliefs that set great store on fatherhood. "
(rings a bell?)
"In 25 years as a missionary priest I have never encountered this situation. I have come across the opposite, where priests have defended nuns from assault," he said. "
"We shouldn't confuse a few individual errors with a tendency. I admire many African priests, who live their vocation with great heroism."
"A few negative situations must not make us forget the often heroic faithfulness of the vast majority of monks, nuns and priests."
It's good to note that this article seems to be talking about African priests. Ie. priests who have an african culture and background. From the article it seems to be making a the point that in this area, men dictate and women obey, either because they are afraid, or because they are uneducated. That makes it easier for these men to find women who will sleep with them.
Let's also add the following then:
"Abuses were documented in 23 countries, many of them in Africa, but also in Ireland, Italy, the US, the Philippines and Brazil, they said."
sure, except that's all the article says about non-african abuse cases. :hmm:
The video you linked to earlier did not involve a Catholic Priest.
This was pointed out to you at that time too.
You need to withdraw your lies.
Yes, maybe, but he was a Christian priest nevertheless
Here is another heartbreaking story:
Priest Charged with Rectory Rape (http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2002/6/23/154207.shtml)
"A Roman Catholic priest raped a woman on a couch in a rectory when she came to him for counseling about her broken marriage according to records turned over to the Brooklyn District Attorney two years after the attack.'
When will the Pope & the Vatican stop protecting similar criminals?
Jeff?
If he is not a Catholic priest, you need to go back and edit your post to correct the error you made on purpose, a second time.
About the above post.
Do you have anything more recent ?
Your posts all date back to 2001 and 2002, and serious and systemic changes have already been made in the Catholic Church.
I am sure if you troll some sites for news from 25 years ago you might find plenty more.
I hope you will be an active participant when I open my thread on sexual abuse in madrassas.
Your posts all date back to 2001 and 2002, and serious and systemic changes have already been made in the Catholic Church.
And that will include also changes in the Bible.
HITMAN, those are a heartbreaking stories indeed, if you have more please share it with us.
"A Roman Catholic priest raped a woman on a couch in a rectory when she came to him for counseling about her broken marriage according to records turned over to the Brooklyn District Attorney two years after the attack.'
I'm sure now Christian women feel afraid to enter a church!
I'm sure they all feel terrified. :rolleyes:
HITMAN, those are a heartbreaking stories indeed, if you have more please share it with us.
IceTea, here is another story but not a heartbreaking one!
A Roman Catholic priest said he had an inappropriate two-year relationship with former Rep. Mark Foley in the 1960s that included massaging the boy in the nude, but he did not specifically remember having sex
Source (http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2006/10/19/92633.shtml)
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