Here's what's confusing me.

In Christianity, we believe that God created angels, which are pure spirits. Some of these angels rebelled against God and were condemned forever. They are called devils or demons. They are still pure spirits, but evil, not good. So far as I understand it, we don't believe in anything like jinn.

But then maybe we do, because I don't really understand what Muslims believe about all this. Muslims believe in angels, right? Do they believe in devils or demons? Or in the Devil? Is that the same as Iblis or is he somebody else?

And if they do, do they believe that these devils are fallen angels? Or are they jinn?

Do they believe that devils can possess people? And if they do, what do they do about it?

Are our beliefs similar or different or half/half?

hmmmm as far as I know, angels are beings made out of light while devils and demons or the "jinn" are made out of fire..thus i think that muslims don't find Satan as a fallen "angel" mainly because God ordered him to bow to Adam but he refused because Adam was a being made out of clay and he was made out of fire.

So, then does that mean that devils can be good? Are some devils good?

Or did God create devils to be bad?

Or are devils just the name you give evil jinn?

And are all angels good?

Jinn have free will same as humans, they are created to worship Allah as well. Some of them muslims as stated in the Quran and some disbelievers.


'And of us some are Muslims (who have submitted to Allâh, after listening to this Qur'ân), and of us some are Al-Qâsitûn (disbelievers - those who have deviated from the Right Path)'. And whosoever has embraced Islâm (i.e. has become a Muslim by submitting to Allâh), then such have sought the Right Path."

And as for the Qâsitûn (disbelievers who deviated from the Right Path), they shall be firewood for Hell,

Angels don't have free will, they are all good and created to obey Allah commands.

Fascinating. And I thought Muslims didn't believe in free will at all.

Okay, so angels have no free will and jinn have free will.

So then are devils jinn who chose evil? How do they fit into the picture?

Iblis is Satan but he is still a jinn.

Shaitân (Satan) wants only to excite enmity and hatred between you with intoxicants (alcoholic drinks) and gambling, and hinder you from the remembrance of Allâh and from As-Salât (the prayer). So, will you not then abstain?

Okay, so here is the table of comparison. Do you think it is right?

Angels--

Christianity--spiritual beings not made of physical matter
--have free will
--the ones we still call angels today chose good permanently

Islam-- --physical being made of light, not a spiritual being
--do not have free will

Devils--

Christianity--spiritual beings not physical beings. Just angels that chose evil.
--have free will
--have permanently chose evil

Islam --material beings made of fire
--have free will
--chose to do evil, otherwise they are called jinns.

Jinns--

Christianity--don't exist

Islam--see above

So, can Iblis change his mind, if he has free will? Can he be sorry and decide to become good?

And can devils possess people?

I think what you said is right but angels have spiritual energy as well but good one on the other hand jinn also have spiritual energy but evil one because they are created from fire. In Islam devils (Satans) are type of jinn.

Iblis fate already known as stated in the Quran because he refused to prostrate to Adam.

That I will fill Hell with you (Iblîs (Satan)) and those of them (mankind) that follow you, together."

And jinn can possess people.

Angels can also change their shape. Angel Jibreal came to prophet Mohammed :PBUH: once in a form of a man and also angels visted prophet Abraham and he thought they are humans.

And verily, there came Our Messengers to Ibrâhîm (Abraham) with glad tidings. They said: Salâm (greetings or peace!) He answered, Salâm (greetings or peace!) and he hastened to entertain them with a roasted calf.

But when he saw their hands went not towards it (the meal), he mistrusted them, and conceived a fear of them. They said: "Fear not, we have been sent against the people of Lût (Lot)."

Well, this has been very helpful. Thanks very much.

In case you are curious, the question about spirit is not about energy, but about what something is MADE OF.

In Christian doctrine, persons can exist which have no physical bodies. They are not material at all. They do not occupy space.

For example, in Christian doctrine, God is a spiritual being. So are human souls. So are angels.

Angels are pure spirits who have no physical bodies and do not occupy space. They differ from God, Who is also pure Spirit, in that they are finite, while He is infinite.

But I will try to find out more about the concept of "spiritual energy" in Islam. Sometimes, when you study these questions, you find the disagreements are more in vocabulary than in idea. Not always! But sometimes.

Duplicate post!

I forgot also to mention that angel Jibreal came to Mary in a form of a man, so it's strange that Christians don't believe angels have physical body.

And mention in the Book (the Qur'ân, O Muhammad (peace be upon him) the story of) Maryam (Mary), when she withdrew in seclusion from her family to a place facing east.

She placed a screen (to screen herself) from them; then We sent to her Our Ruh (angel Jibrîl (Gabriel)) and he appeared before her in the form of a man in all respects.

It's also stated in the Quran that angels have wings.

All the praises and thanks are to Allâh, the (only) Originator (or the (only) Creator) of the heavens and the earth, Who made the angels messengers with wings, two or three or four. He increases in creation what He wills. Verily, Allâh is Able to do all things.

------------
Angels:
------------
1- Material: "Light" (Physical Creatures)
2- Spirit: Resident in body till death.
3- Will: They can't disobey God (No free will)
4- Purpose of Creation: Worship of God (Only)
5- Transformation: Yes
6- Visibility: invisible.
7- Food: No.
8- Sleep: No.
9- Breed: No.

------------
Humans:
------------
1- Material: "Mud" (Physical Creatures)
2- Spirit: Resident in body till death.
3- Will: They can obey / disobey God (Have free will)
4- Purpose of Creation: Worship of God (Only)
5- Transformation: No
6- Visibility: visible.
7- Food: Yes.
8- Sleep: Yes.
9- Breed: Yes.

------------
Jinn:
------------
1- Material: "Fire" (Physical Creatures)
2- Spirit: Resident in body till death.
3- Will: They can obey / disobey God (Have free will)
4- Purpose of Creation: Worship of God (Only)
5- Transformation: Yes
6- Visibility: invisible.
7- Food: Yes.
8- Sleep: Yes.
9- Breed: Yes.

...do they believe that these devils are fallen angels? Or are they jinn?
Devils are something and angels are something else. The only case we know is a Jin "Iblis" who was treated as an angel then casted away because of his pride, hate and disobedience to God's orders.

Do they believe that devils can possess people? And if they do, what do they do about it?
We -As Muslims- don't believe that Jinn can "possess" people, we believe that they can do harm people "only" when God have the will they do. The harm is like any other harm, people harm eachother, animals harm people, nature harm people...etc.But they don't make someone act "against" his wish. So no excuses for any human to claim "BEING POSSESSED".

Are our beliefs similar or different or half/half?
Similar with deformation. Christian vision is deformed with methodology and becuase the book was "re-written" to serve certain purposes so as the only reliable source is altered there is great share of "human touch" in it which plays with the "un-known" some how, some way.

Nothing to add...I'm just enjoying this thread!

i get excited when i read such things! i like them! :cute:

i have a question though..

------------
Angels:
------------
2- Spirit: Resident in body till death.


so angels die? :think: i personally have no idea..just asking.

i get excited when i read such things! i like them! :cute:

i have a question though..



so angels die? :think: i personally have no idea..just asking.
At the very end, the End of all ends, when "Israfel" an angel who will blow in the 'horn' so everyone will die at the moment, God "Allah" will order The Angel of Death (one who takes the spirit off the body and leave it an empty Caracas) God will order that Angel to take the spirit off "The Holly Spirit" and some other Angels ... so he will do that ... Then God will order him to take his own spirit (The Spirit of The Angel of Death) who is now the last creature balance, then he will put it in the hands of God (Allah). Then...Allah our Mighty God, will ask "To Whom will be the dominion that day?" ... And there will be no one except God himself to answer this question, so Allah our Mighty God will answer Himself "That of Allah, the One the irresistible".
40-16

"يوم هم بارزون لا يخفى على الله منهم شيء لمن الملك اليوم لله الواحد القهار"


"40-16. The Day whereon they will (all) come forth: not a single thing concerning them is hidden from Allah. Whose will be the dominion that Day?" That of Allah, the One the Irresistible!"

This is a matter of unknown because there is a verse which says:


وَنُفِخَ فِي الصُّورِ فَصَعِقَ مَنْ فِي السَّمَاوَاتِ وَمَنْ فِي الْأَرْضِ إِلَّا مَنْ شَاءَ اللَّهُ ثُمَّ نُفِخَ فِيهِ أُخْرَى فَإِذَا هُمْ قِيَامٌ يَنْظُرُونَ

And the Trumpet will be blown, and all who are in the heavens and all who are on the earth will swoon away, except him whom Allâh wills. Then it will blown a second time, and behold they will be standing, looking on (waiting).

But we can say that angels don't die the same way as humans do, meaning on regular basis because there is no evidence to this.

I think Haroundb's table there got it all correct.. Thanx alot everybody, it is very interesting to read this :D

Just think as The Sabla member are like angels and the Mods are the Jinn's and Ex Mods are Human

Interesting Thread .. Thnx guys for the details ..

Are our beliefs similar or different or half/half?
Similar with deformation. Christian vision is deformed with methodology and becuase the book was "re-written" to serve certain purposes so as the only reliable source is altered there is great share of "human touch" in it which plays with the "un-known" some how, some way.

:p

Mutatis mutandis*, I agree! :p

*in Latin that means, 'things having been changed which ought to be changed'. In other words, 'turn it around and look at it from the other end...

Thanks, though. The answer was helpful, though I still have some questions...

Duplicate post!

I forgot also to mention that angel Jibreal came to Mary in a form of a man, so it's strange that Christians don't believe angels have physical body.

And mention in the Book (the Qur'ân, O Muhammad (peace be upon him) the story of) Maryam (Mary), when she withdrew in seclusion from her family to a place facing east.

She placed a screen (to screen herself) from them; then We sent to her Our Ruh (angel Jibrîl (Gabriel)) and he appeared before her in the form of a man in all respects.

It's also stated in the Quran that angels have wings.

All the praises and thanks are to Allâh, the (only) Originator (or the (only) Creator) of the heavens and the earth, Who made the angels messengers with wings, two or three or four. He increases in creation what He wills. Verily, Allâh is Able to do all things.

Well, this is the Christian teaching:

Yes, angels APPEAR in forms, othewise we could not see them or hear them. But they only 'appear' in those forms. They appear to us in a visionary way so that we can perceive them.

Angels are portrayed with wings because they "move" with "infinite speed." But we don't see them flapping around like birds. And wings won't help you in outer space! :p

In fact, angels don't move because they don't occupy space. They can act at any place or any number of places at the same time.

Do they believe that devils can possess people? And if they do, what do they do about it?
We -As Muslims- don't believe that Jinn can "possess" people, we believe that they can do harm people "only" when God have the will they do. The harm is like any other harm, people harm eachother, animals harm people, nature harm people...etc.But they don't make someone act "against" his wish. So no excuses for any human to claim "BEING POSSESSED".

The Christian view, for comparison's sake:

"Possession" means possession of the Body, not the soul. Of course, the harm occurs with the permisson of God.

But where a person is possessed, they cannot act to control their body, their voice, etc. That is under the control of the demon.

A demon can make a person's body do things against his will. But so can a disease affect one's control over one's body.

And all these things--diseases and possession--happen with God's acquiescence, if not His direct Will.

i get excited when i read such things! i like them! :cute:

i have a question though..



so angels die? :think: i personally have no idea..just asking.

For comparison's sake, the Christian doctrine:

Angels--never die.

Devils--they are just fallen angels and they never die.

Humans--never die. That is: they have immortal souls which never die. They have bodies which were originally not meant to die. But because of the Fall, their bodies die. After the Resurrection, the body will be immortal again and will not die.

Animals--die. They have mortal souls and mortal bodies which are intended to die.

The Christian view, for comparison's sake:

"Possession" means possession of the Body, not the soul. Of course, the harm occurs with the permisson of God.

But where a person is possessed, they cannot act to control their body, their voice, etc. That is under the control of the demon.

A demon can make a person's body do things against his will. But so can a disease affect one's control over one's body.

And all these things--diseases and possession--happen with God's acquiescence, if not His direct Will.

thats how I thought the Islamic view was, as well :os

For comparison's sake, the Christian doctrine:

Angels--never die.

Devils--they are just fallen angels and they never die.

Humans--never die. That is: they have immortal souls which never die. They have bodies which were originally not meant to die. But because of the Fall, their bodies die. After the Resurrection, the body will be immortal again and will not die.

Animals--die. They have mortal souls and mortal bodies which are intended to die.

And this one too!

^^

So not everyone agrees, hmmm? Interesting.

Well, this is the Christian teaching:

Yes, angels APPEAR in forms, othewise we could not see them or hear them. But they only 'appear' in those forms. They appear to us in a visionary way so that we can perceive them.

Angels are portrayed with wings because they "move" with "infinite speed." But we don't see them flapping around like birds. And wings won't help you in outer space! :p

In fact, angels don't move because they don't occupy space. They can act at any place or any number of places at the same time.

I thought you have said that angels only spiritual beings without physical body and now you say they appear in forrms.

Anyway prophet Mohammed :PBUH: saw angel Jbreal in his original form (the way Allah created him) twice, once mentioned in a hadith and the other in the holy Quran near the Paradise.


And indeed he (Muhammad (peace be upon him)) saw him (Jibrîl (Gabriel)) at a second descent (i.e. another time).
Near Sidrat-ul-Muntaha (a lote-tree of the utmost boundary over the seventh heaven beyond which none can pass).
Near it is the Paradise of Abode.

Humans--never die. That is: they have immortal souls which never die. They have bodies which were originally not meant to die. But because of the Fall, their bodies die. After the Resurrection, the body will be immortal again and will not die.



Islam view with regard to humans soul is that at death time the soul is taken out of the body by the angel, but what happened to it is beyond our knowledge.


Then why do you not (intervene) when (the soul of a dying person) reaches the throat?
And you at the moment are looking on,
But We (i.e. Our angels who take the soul) are nearer to him than you, but you see not, (Tafsir At-Tabarî)
Then why do you not - if you are exempt from the reckoning and recompense (punishment)
Bring back the soul (to its body), if you are truthful?

The Christian view, for comparison's sake:

"Possession" means possession of the Body, not the soul. Of course, the harm occurs with the permisson of God.

But where a person is possessed, they cannot act to control their body, their voice, etc. That is under the control of the demon.

A demon can make a person's body do things against his will. But so can a disease affect one's control over one's body.

And all these things--diseases and possession--happen with God's acquiescence, if not His direct Will.

Nothing..Just nothing can happen on this universe without his direct will. We may have limitation that is why we may have indirect will, but God's will is a throughout will that is reaching all in all no matter how many nodds may come across, still all by God throw God's will.

Jeff, How about evil spirits? Is this what you mean by devils?

Well i'm not sure if anyone saw the VH1 Documentary on Lisa "Left Eye" Lopes from TLC? It is titled, "The last days of Lisa "Left Eye" Lopes". In this documentary, she goes on this 30 day spiritual journey or fast if you will. She is feeling like she needs to find peace and decides to take some of her friends with her to Honduras on this 30 days spiritual retreat. During that time she states that she feels there is an evil spirit trying to take her life. She films every day of her journey, even the accident that ends of taking her life. It is just strange to me to see her stating on camera that she knows there is a spirit after her to kill her. Five days before she dies, she and one of her friends crash into a 5 year old boy and he dies. She states on camera that she thinks the spirit got him instead of her (his last name is Lopes too). Then 5 days later she dies.

Point is, that i believe in spirits on this earth, not sure if it's the same as devils or whatever.

As far as I know "evil spirits" and "devils" or "demons" are synonymous terms in Christian theology.

oOo intresting thread i got to know new stuff ;D

Yeah, but watch your back! ;)

haha whats that supposed to mean??:inno:

Iblis is Satan but he is still a jinn.

Shaitân (Satan) wants only to excite enmity and hatred between you with intoxicants (alcoholic drinks) and gambling, and hinder you from the remembrance of Allâh and from As-Salât (the prayer). So, will you not then abstain?

no hes not,jins and devils are 2 different things,fyi

Two different things in what way, from what jinn and devils are created?

^Satan IS a jinn, as he's the king of all bad jinns? I once read that he has a 3arsh under water which is unknown where it's exactly located..some people presume it's under the sea of the Bermuda triangle. :rolleyes: