His thoughts include:

"Islam itself is the problem. Islam is a violent religion," he told The Daily Telegraph. "The Prophet Mohammed was a violent man. The Koran is mostly a violent book. We should invest in Muslim people but they have to first get rid of half the Koran and half of their beliefs," he said.

and

"It (the burqa) is a medieval token of a barbaric time, of how not to treat women, even if they want to wear it themselves," he argues.

and

"There is almost no country more politically correct than the UK. Look at the terrible things that happened in London after Madrid, you have more reason than most to make this debate transparent and public," he said.

and

"I lost my freedom and privacy because of my opposition to Islam."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;jsessionid=EAR3PVRQROMXTQFIQMFCFF4AVCBQ YIV0?xml=/news/2007/03/01/wdutch01.xml

Does he have a point about Islamic Imperialism?

I think Jesus was a violent man and taking that fact into consideration, the result is clear with all the wars the Bush administration is leading

Quoting Jesus:

"I come not to bring peace, but to bring a sword"

1) Open another thread on your quote......and I will re-destroy it....again

2) How about sticking to the topic?

i.e. do you think Islam is seeking to take over Europe by stealth?

I think Jesus was a violent man and taking that fact into consideration, the result is clear with all the wars the Bush administration is leading

Quoting Jesus:

"I come not to bring peace, but to bring a sword"Ahhh ... then we have confirmation.

1. Islam is inherently violent with it's founder ... Mohammad.
2. Christianity is inherently violent with it's founder ... Jesus.

Two more things we can add to ... "what religions have in common thread"

But give examples of the wars that "Jesus" conducted like the documented by muslims wars that "Mohammad" conducted?

That would seal the deal ...

That would be interesting to read, Jack !

I would also like to know how many wars Jesus was personally involved in.

I would also like to know how many people Jesus ordered killed (poets, etc, etc) when they poked fun at him.

But I don't hold out too much hope of finding many answers to these questions here.

Who knows, maybe hitman will actually surprise us this time.

I think Europe and most of the Western world are becoming aware of the threat and dangers that having large moslem populations bring.

Some............wanting to be treated differently, wanting to have sharia to deal with local matters, wanting to keep together, wanting to not integrate

generically speaking of course

sounds like Imperialism by stealth to me

Now now now
Where is the Somalian heroin icon of the European anti Muslims crusaders ?
In US working for the neo-cons

Does he have a point about Islamic Imperialism?
no no no
if his country didn't understand anything on the issue but made it worse [as Ayaan highlighted before running away] then is not Islamic imperialism the problem

Ayan is presently in Toronto signing copies of her latest book "Infidel".

If I could get away from work, I would have been happy spend my dollars purchasing her book and having her autograph it.

Currently two wars are underway after the God of president Bush told him to initiate, I presume his God is not Krishna nor is Buddha

People are always afraid of what they don't know.

and this man doesn't know islam.

I think Bush would argue that he didn't initiate either one of those wars...

You know, my thought when I read a provocative post like this is always:

What do you expect as an answer? Do you expect that Sablians will say, "Well, yes, I guess you are right. I guess my religion is devoted to violence and killing at its very heart. Perhaps I should give it up altogether and condemn it and then go fight against it. Thanks for clearing my mind. This was a valuable thirty seconds." ?

I think Bush would argue that he didn't initiate either one of those wars...I also think that Bush would argue that he is not Jesus ... the founder of christianity.

Hitty ... try again

I think HITMAN's point is that Jesus is Bush's God and that Bush believes therefore that Jesus told him to fight wars. Ergo, Bush's Jesus, anyway, is violent. He can inspire and instigate wars.

I'm not sure I agree, but it's a fair and interesting point.

But we aren't discussing wars fought by followers of either Jesus or Mohammed.

Jacks question was quite specific, comparing battles fought by Jesus and Mohammed themselves.

That should be a pretty interesting comparison.

^^^

Well, Wudjab, you and I always seem to disagree over the rules of discourse! :p

I think it's perfectly fair to ask a parallel question like HITMAN's rather than making a direct response. Here, the ultimate question is whether "Islam itself is the problem," as the Dutch minister says it is.

Jack points out that Mohammed was involved in wars and Jesus wasn't. Fair point. HITMAN points out that even if that is so, Jesus still somehow manages to inspire wars.

I say again: I'm not sure I agree, but a fair and interesting response.

But you can compare wars fought by Moslems and wars fought by Christians.

or

You can compare wars fought by Mohammed and those fought by Jesus.

But you can't compare apples and oranges.

That much is obvious.

Sure you can compare apples and oranges! Why not?

Similarities: both are fruits, both are round, both are edible, both grow on trees.

Differences: apples are woody fruit; oranges are citrus...apple skins are edible; orange peel is semi-inedible.

Etc., etc. Instructive, I think.

In this case you can surely compare the things you mention.

But you can also opine that restricting the comparisons to those things only produces a skewed impression.

And you can go on to compare how followers of both religions have sometimes found inspiration for warfare in their founders. Which is what HITMAN is doing, I think.

Again: I'm NOT saying that's some kind of definitive ANSWER. But if it's really a DISCUSSION you want and not a lecture to erring students, I think it's a fair and interesting point.

One little flaw in your whole spill of BS here jeff to steer the discussion in another direction ... thats the only thing that hitman said and you have reinforced.

So far neither you are hitman has taken on the original topic.

Well, the original topic is a huge one, Jack.

"Does [the Dutch minister] have a point about Islamic Imperialism?" is the question.

One subtopic raised by the Minister is the question of the warlike character of Islam and its origins in its founder.

HITMAN points out that it appears that Christians too seem to find inspiration and guidance from their Founder in making decisions to go to war, and imperialistic war at that.

Why isn't that a relevant point worth making?

And why not RESPOND to it, rather than just complaining that it makes the discussion go in a direction you don't want it to go in?

And why not RESPOND to it, rather than just complaining that it makes the discussion go in a direction you don't want it to go in?No problem ... open up another thread that will discuss

Jesus ... his wars or his violent nature etc etc

When you do I promise I won't steer that thread away from the topic ... as you do in every topic that concerns islam ... :rolleyes:

Woody will have heart attack soon

ZDF's religious affairs department is drafting plans to commission a weekly talk about faith, and is expected to choose a range of imams to write the sermons, directed at the 3. 2 million to 3. 5 million out of Germany's population of 82 million who are of Muslim heritage.

Another public broadcaster, the ARD chain, offers a Christian address every Sunday. ZDF wants a matching programme on Friday, the day of worship in the Islamic week. The Jewish Sabbath is on Saturday.

Salomon Korn, deputy chairman of the Jewish council, said in an interview with the news magazine Focus to appear next week that he did not agree with special treatment for Muslims. He called instead for a multi-faith programme open to theologians of all religions.

Source (http://jurnalo.com/jurnalo/storyPage.do?story_id=18384)

Anyway Ayman Mazyek, secretary-general of the Central Council of Muslims in Germany, said is not enough : he wants tv not internet :cutecute:

No problem ... open up another thread that will discuss

Jesus ... his wars or his violent nature etc etc

When you do I promise I won't steer that thread away from the topic ... as you do in every topic that concerns islam ... :rolleyes:

Jack, tu quoque is a legitimate debating point everywhere I have ever been. (For those who don't know, it's Latin for 'you too!'). It's not considered "changing the subject."

If someone says, "America is imperialistic," it's perfectly fair to say, "Not any more than other cultures...including Islamic culture!", for example.

Otherwise, you are discussing things in isolation that are not in fact isolated.

The way to keep the discussion on track is to continue COMPARING and not focus on Jesus or Islamic imperialism ALONE.

So, you might say, "Okay, I see this similiarity between Jesus and Mohammed that you say, but I don't think it's important. Here is a difference between them that I think is much more important. And here is why I think the difference is important."

If you don't feel like doing that, fine. But I don't think it's me "dragging things off topic." I think it's you wanted to direct the topic in a narrow way toward a preordained end: making Islam look as bad as possible.

And that tends to be a "conversation-stopper" as my grandmother-in-law used to say.

Sorry Jeff ... you too ... method of I don't like that question so I'm going to answer it with another question gets you no where.

As you can see the beloved discussion that you so desire has gone nowhere in this thread since Hitman tried it and you lapped up what he puked to carry on the deflection.

And that tends to be a "conversation-stopper" as my grandmother-in-law used to say.

If only that were true - it has unfortunately never ever stopped any conversation from you.

As your friend Spencer just told me, you are not a dhimmi, far from it, but you are definitively argumentative.

Enough of this diversion crap, back to the original topic.

Is Islam imperialistic ?

Well, you can challenge the standard rules of debate if you like and make your own rules.

But the reason the thread has gone nowhere is that you refuse either to take up Hitman's point or to make other points of your own! No one's stopping you from saying whatever you like!

But if you and others say, "That's an irrelevant question", I can say, "I think it's relevant," and explain why. You can ignore me, or you can make another point of your own. OR you can spend a lot of time trying to explain to me that such points aren't allowed! Up to you.

If only that were true - it has unfortunately never ever stopped any conversation from you.

As your friend Spencer just told me, you are not a dhimmi, far from it, but you are definitively argumentative.

Ah, bless your heart Wudjab! Yes, I AM argumentative! :P And I have a hide like a rhinoceros!

Say a prayer for Bob, he's up against Dinesh D'Souza almost as we speak...

Okay Wudjab:

Is Islam imperialistic?

Pro: It has certainly conquered territory in the name of religion.

Contra: It has certainly made many, many conversions without such conquests.

Pro: There are passages in the Quran and the Ahadith which might indicate an imperialistic nature.

Contra: Most Muslims on this forum who actually LIVE the religion don't find any kind of imperialism in what they have been taught or what they live in every day religious life. They don't hear at the mosque: Conquer the Infidel! They hear: Live righteously and things of that order.

Discuss.

Thats a good starting point.

Lets hear from the some of the followers of the faith themselves now.

PS : as the recent Channel 4 documentary exposed, many many mosques are propagating the very same message you claim they are not.

Some............wanting to be treated differently, wanting to have sharia to deal with local matters, wanting to keep together, wanting to not integrate

generically speaking of course

sounds like Imperialism by stealth to me

That is very real. Unfortunately. And it's pissing people off.

Europe is accomodating refugees and migrants from Africa who insist on importing their religious traditions with them, nice stuff, like Female Genital Mutilation (http://www.time.com/time/europe/html/030505/circumcision.html), Honour killings (http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,1244406,00.html) etc.. and some go around with the notion that they have a right to rape women (http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=20646) because they are not muslims or dressed like muslims.

So, if they're willing to break the law for their traditions, how far will they go for the sake of religion?

The Burger King ice-cream swirl (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2005/10/04/do0402.xml&sSheet=/portal/2005/10/04/ixportal.html) that was banned, and the banning of Piglet from stores are just the beginning.

It's a shame, because I'm sure many moderate muslims do integrate and do adapt to and embrace a western kind of lifestyle, where they have bbq's with their non muslim neighbours, wish holiday greetings to each other etc.. but those who aren't, are usually the ones who would do anything, even murder, because they are so fanatical and brainwashed.

What irks me even more, is that if you try to get thorugh Saudi Arabia's airport with a bible (http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewForeignBureaus.asp?Page=%5CForeignBureaus%5Car chive%5C200505%5CFOR20050519a.html), you're just asking for trouble. Won't even mention going to Sudan. You get a free mastectomy (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=26672) for being non-muslim there.

Why these double standards? I think Mr. P is onto something.

Ah Fengy you are generalizing !

I am sure lots of Christian / Secular countries do all that stuff too.

:(

Ah Fengy you are generalizing !

I am sure lots of Christian / Secular countries do all that stuff too.

:(
lol @ woody.

I do believe that the way some people are taught their religion is very dangerous to the rest of the world. I know many moderare muslims in my country, but the immigrants we are hosting from Africa - we don't know what kind of people they are, how ready to integrate they are, and whether they see raping someone's daughter because her knees are showing is what they think is ok. We don't know of they are here for economic reasons and share the "convert or die" practice that goes on in their home lands.

So, should we feel threatened? Looking at Europe who have the ripened fruit of accomodating migrants from muslim countries, we do feel threatened. Unfortunately, it's a case of the good ones get labelled with the bad. But that's something that occurs in many many other situations.

During the recent hulabaloo with the village in Quebec where they posted set of rules and regulations that they expected immigrants to their village to follow.

It was interesting reading some of the forum discussions on the local papers web site.

One poster put it very nicely, to the effect of :

You are welcome to come to my house.

But if you come to my house, please do not try to rearrange my furniture.

We like the way the furniture is arranged and if it is not to your liking, please don't bother coming here.

Perfect.

Contra: Most Muslims on this forum who actually LIVE the religion don't find any kind of imperialism in what they have been taught or what they live in every day religious life. They don't hear at the mosque: Conquer the Infidel! They hear: Live righteously and things of that order.

Discuss.This guy lives the religion and his followers live the religion.

Living the religion

The thing I don't get it is...
Most of us Muslims never disrespect Jesus or the Bible but we say that Jesus PBUH was a prophet of God and that the Bible was a book of God but was corrupted. And then someone comes up and starts saying we have a violent religion...

Here it is for the millionth bloody time:
If you want to study Islam, study Islam from the MUSLIMS but please, KINDLY do NOT study the Muslims or rather, the few you choose to see out of the 1.2 billion around the world.

Do you expect me to say my religion is imperialstic because of the sayings of some idiot who probably NEVER read the Qura'an, the life of the prophet or any unbiased book? The 'terrorist' verses that the members in the Sabla provided were translated for their convenience and I think they serve as one of the purest evidence that Islam does NOT call for terrorism.

I don't feel threatened when I see an Elmendorf or someone from any Christian belief or cult. It's their religion, and as long as their religion does not cross my personal freedom, I'm fine with it. Someone coming up to me as a friend and telling me about his religion in hope that I would convert is trespassing my freedom?

We don't care what you choose to believe or not to believe.

We do care that you migrate to largely Christian countries, breed like rabbits, begin demanding concession after concession, prayer halls, jail toilets facing the right direction, finding offense in ice cream cones, living in ghettos, preaching jehadi ideologies against the host nation, demanding to make the wearing of full face coverings acceptable in all cases including driving licenses, demanding public schools serve halal meals to all, demanding that swimming classes during Ramadan be canceled because moslem children might accidentally swallow water, demanding Islam be taught to non moslems while at the same time demanding the right to pull your children from classes that teach religions other than Islam...

I could go on and on...

Most of these are from the new manifesto the Muslim Council of Britain issued to demand special privileges to moslem children studying in public schools.

If you want all these things, there are lots of moslem countries you are free to migrate to.

No other minority faith makes these demands on the host nation.. no special rights for Hindus, Jews, Buddhists.

Only moslems.

Um...If you can't catch all that on us as bad, why the hell are you so tired with it? I mean...If it's against your law, why aren't you catching that 'minority' that's causing the trouble! Man, we seem like such a fuss, pulling our OWN kids from school and from swimming classes, demanding to wear what WE think is good for us, choosing to LIVE with each other in ghettos. Why CAN'T Islam be taught to non-Muslims as part of their religious studies? You know that in the Edexcel board of the UK they have an entry in Islamic Studies, don't you? It's so bad we CHOOSE to have children too, we should be shot man...God, we aren't even allowed to breed?

The question is...If the Jews, Buddists or Hindus ask for such specialities, would you make of it as much a fuss as when Muslims ask for it?

And actually, this Dutch dude DOES care about what we believe and not believe. He thinks that to 'set us right' he should 'erase half of the Qura'an'. Seriously pathetic.

The question is...If the Jews, Buddists or Hindus ask for such specialities, would you make of it as much a fuss as when Muslims ask for it?They havn't so that's not valid. If they start and back it up with violence as the muslim have ... yes I would make the same fuss about it.

And actually, this Dutch dude DOES care about what we believe and not believe. He thinks that to 'set us right' he should 'erase half of the Qura'an'. Seriously pathetic.I'll settle for just the imperialistic jihad part.

^VIOLENCE? VIOLENCE? You want to link the terrorist attacks with what they're asking for to live? You have GOT to be kidding me. Terrorism is done because of a supposed jihad, a misconception fired by hate and discrimination. So if my host country does not allow me to take my son out of his school because his friends are daisy-chaining, I become a terrorist for fighting for it with my own words?

And before you go in the 'it's not their country' thing, I have to tell you, they DO contribute to the society as much as anyone else. My cousin is a Muslim surgeon in Scotland, her Muslim husband is a teacher. They have no trouble living there and their best friends are Christians!

My uncle from my mother's side manages a small cafe in Toronto, Canada. His sons live with him who are all in 'Christian' schools that do not teach Islam yet they work to keep their prayers.

All in good time. Threadlike, all in good time.

Once moslems reach around 10% of the population thats when the trouble starts.

Fortunately people are waking up and are not will to have any of it.

During the recent hulabaloo with the village in Quebec where they posted set of rules and regulations that they expected immigrants to their village to follow.

It was interesting reading some of the forum discussions on the local papers web site.

One poster put it very nicely, to the effect of :

You are welcome to come to my house.

But if you come to my house, please do not try to rearrange my furniture.

We like the way the furniture is arranged and if it is not to your liking, please don't bother coming here.

Perfect.


If you come to my COUNTRY and you become a CITIZEN, then it's YOUR country TOO. So, you get to help decide how the furniture is arranged in your own HOUSE.

The weakness in this "breed like rabbits" argument is that it's occurring in a context in which Western nations are DYING OUT because they are unwilling to have children!

We have read God out of our lives and we find that we have nothing left we want to live for. Soon, there will BE no Europe or Canada or America.

That's our fault.

The Muslims are simply stepping into a vacuum that we have created. Oh, they have kids do they? They actually believe that their religion matters? Well, good for them! We should learn from them. They are right.

And if they are complaining and asking for special priveleges, they are simply following the path that we mapped out for every minority in the world to ask special priveleges for themselves and hype their victimization. Special set asides and special treatment on the basis of race, gender, and religion were already invented and taught to public schoolchildren as the noble way of remaking society before Muslims started settling in the West in significant numbers. The Muslims have just taken us at our word and gotten in line with all the others.

The PROBLEM is not essentially with Muslims. The PROBLEM is with US. If we can cure the rot and weakness in our societies, we will be able to come to some accomadation with them. If we can't, we will DIE and DAMNED SOON. And that would happen whether there were any Muslims among us or not.

This thread started with some comments from a Netherlands Minister. Well, there is a religious revival among young Christians going on in the Netherlands. High school teachers are talking about how amazed they are that the students are demanding time to pray and study the Bible. And young people there are beginning to have kids again. THAT's a hopeful sign.

Man you Catholics really do believe in having lots of kids. No offense. Here's a joke: A protestant man is looking at his Catholic neighbor with his 20 kids, and he asks his wife "why do Catholics have so many kids?" And the wife says "Because Catholics don't use birth control." "But neither do we," says the Protestant man, "and we only have two kids." And the wife says, "that's because we have only had sex twice dear." Ha ha ha....

Now what is this thread about...OH yeah...if anybody manages to get the ever so tolerant Dutch riled up, then it is probably not over nothing.

I am not condemning people of any religion, but I think those that do act a bit too extreme, will feel the silent disapproval of the ever so polite Dutch people.

There are many different types of Imperialism - and not all of them involve force

i.e. Cultural Imperialism

It is a very valid point worth debating - and I will shortly put forward some additional examples

In the meantime, a mischievious (but related aside)........my understanding is that you (Jeff) are American.........I wonder if your Great Grandchildren will consider themselves Spanish.......

But you can compare wars fought by Moslems and wars fought by Christians.

or

You can compare wars fought by Mohammed and those fought by Jesus.

But you can't compare apples and oranges.

That much is obvious.




wudja !!!


The nature of your kuwaition points to the fact: As the saying goes; ;) , it Takes Two to Tango`W' !!!!! So, islam had sort of B (ush) B (lair) B(erlusconi) v Saddam :cool:



So, tobic irrelevant :p







.

There are many different types of Imperialism - and not all of them involve force

i.e. Cultural Imperialism

It is a very valid point worth debating - and I will shortly put forward some additional examples

In the meantime, a mischievious (but related aside)........understanding is that you are an American.........I wonder if your Great Grandchildren will consider themselves Spanish.......

Who is American? Me? Or Jihad for Truth?

I think we both are.

And so are Muslims for America!

http://www.muslimsforamerica.us/

They gave my friend Bob Spencer a hug and a "Muslims for America" canvas carrying bag at CPAC last night. He was carrying it around all evening and beaming!

Jeff,

I have amended my post

Hope the point is clear

^^^

Still not clear, O son of Gepetto! Are you pointing out that we have immigration problems involving Latin Americans? Or that Mexicans integrate better than Muslims? Or that the Spanish discovered the New World? Or is there some message in there about American cultural imperialism or something?

I'm afraid I'm being dense, but I don't get it. Typically American, eh? :p

OBL and his current friends frequently make claims to Spain being an Islamic land since it was once under their occupation.

I think there is a clue in there.

you all scared ?

Not till I have at least one living cell in my body.

you all scared ?I only have fear when I'm uninformed.

Do you think I'm uninformed ;)

OBL and his current friends frequently make claims to Spain being an Islamic land since it was once under their occupation.

I think there is a clue in there.

Uh-huh, yes, "the tragedy of Andalusia" as they call it. I know about that.

But I still don't see what that has to do with my grandchildren thinking of themselves as Spanish. Something to do with Arab imperialism? I don't get it.

I can't respond to it til it's spelled out. So, Sherlock, if you're following the clues, spell it out for me! The game's afoot!

The last thing Islam needs right now is some dutch politician making a name for himself. His words are so unnecessary, does he have anything more to hit us with ? .. A flower perhaps ...

I only have fear when I'm uninformed.

Do you think I'm uninformed ;)
Yeps
you became radical same as radical Islamists, just on the other side
and this because you are uninformed or misinformed