Islamically, is it allowed to....

You and your spouse suffer from the same disease. You decide to get pregnant. Apparently, there's a 50% chance your children will also inherit the disease.

Technology nowadays has improved and there's a way to find out whether your baby is diseased or not when you're in your third month (12 weeks pregnant). They do the screening for you along with other tests and give you the result.

If the baby is diseased. Does Islam allow the mother to abort the baby in such cases?

I mean no one wants to give birth to sick babies, and here the fact is that YOU know that you're going to give birth to a sick baby. I think it's absolutely unfair to bring sick children to this world..

Please don't bring up "divorce" as a solution.. My question is fairly clear, does Islam allow the woman to abort her baby when she knows that he/she is sick?

Islam has forbidden abortion, there is no situation where it is accepted.

I managed to read 2 fatwas on Islam online.. that being said I'll quote of each

“While Islam permits preventing pregnancy for valid reasons, it does not allow doing violence to it once it occurs.

Muslim jurists have agreed unanimously that after the fetus is completely formed and has been given a soul, abortion is haram. It is also a crime, the
commission of which is prohibited to the Muslim because it constitutes an offense against a complete, living human being."

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503543150

The other topic however differs greatly..


First of all, it is to be stated that Islam forbids abortion in all stages of pregnancy. When the pregnancy reaches 120 days old, abortion becomes totally forbidden and is deemed a form of murder that results in compensation becoming liable. If abortion is done prior to this period, no compensation is liable but one should ask forgiveness and promise never to commit it again. In addition, it is highly recommended to do much righteous deeds such as giving in charity, etc.

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503547110

I do strongly advise to read both links however here's my say in it:

On one side you have "muslim jurists" say that after a fetus is formed out and the soul dwells within it, it is impermissible for abortion. The other link however mentions that abortion is haram in all cases even before 120 days (the limit being which a fetus being formed and obtains a soul).

Now my problem with this is that none of these sides can get to agree on the ruling and it seems as if they're baffled by it.

Personally I'm all for abortion before a soul comes in because we feel a human being exists then. Before that moment, only a being or a collective of beings exist. Every parent wishes to keep their children alive and well and its every parents worst nightmare to see their kids in pain, suffering or outliving them. And thus parents feel the need to avoid the problem rather than go through it. They feel as if it is entirely their fault to bring children with such diseases and its just as close as the feeling of murder where they aren't able to wash this blood from their hands.

I agree with MK. True that it isn't fair to give birth to sick children, but at the same time, it's not fair to murder children after they have soul, if this new technology can detect the sickness of the baby before it's actually alive (after having the soul blown to it) then it's harmless to use it, imvho

What happens when the woman gets pregnant again? she will use this technology again and decider wether to keep the kid or not .. its becomeing like trial and error .. she will keep getting pregnant and will keep killing her babies .. it just doesnt make sense!!

I agree with MK. True that it isn't fair to give birth to sick children, but at the same time, it's not fair to murder children after they have soul, if this new technology can detect the sickness of the baby before it's actually alive (after having the soul blown to it) then it's harmless to use it, imvho

But babies are alive from the moment of conception! :os

Before modern medicine, people thought that inert matter was slowly formed in the womb. But now we know that it's a living being from the first instant! And the heartbeat begins 21 days after conception.

And here's the baby at only one month...before most people even know they are pregnant:

http://www.angelfire.com/nm/MorganWilliam/images/mo2.jpg

Is there some teaching about the soul entering at some later time?

Jeff, according to many scholar, a fetus is considered a full child after having its parts fully formed. However, most didn't agree on exactly when (as in which month) the soul is blown to the child, but they agree that it's after the baby is fully formed, not before

I think it is not for us to decide when to take a life out of a baby!
you can have a perfect healthy baby and after few years can get sick with a disease....what are u going to do then! kill him!!
It is the same, before or after, i think gods will should be accepted anyway

BraikiDo you mean fully formed, the 9th month!! cause as far as i know it is far before that, i think 5th or max 6 months!

A child is a living human being from the moment of conception.

To take it's life is murder of the most foul kind - murder of a defenseless human being.

A few years ago, when scientists thought they discovered some microscopic particles that looked like evidence of bacteria on Mars, what did the headlines say ?

"Possible LIFE found on Mars".

And yet we can debate whether a fetus has life or not ?

I think it is not for us to decide when to take a life out of a baby!
you can have a perfect healthy baby and after few years can get sick with a disease....what are u going to do then! kill him!!
It is the same, before or after, i think gods will should be accepted anyway

BraikiDo you mean fully formed, the 9th month!! cause as far as i know it is far before that, i think 5th or max 6 months!

I think Sweety is on to something!

Except that "fully formed" doesn't happen til we're about sixteen or seventeen years old, really! And spiritually, "fully formed" isn't til God wants to take us from this life!

Look at the photo of a four weeks old child again:

http://www.angelfire.com/nm/MorganWilliam/images/mo2.jpg

All of us once were exactly like this!

Look at it: Can you imagine hiring a stranger to put a vacuum cleaner inside you and suck that to pieces, pulling off the arms and legs and the head? Horrible!

Forget about the soul for a minute: God is doing a masterpiece of work, slowly forming a human being which is already alive and has a hearbeat, a brain, eyes, hands, feet, blood...

God is already at work creating one of us...who are we to tell Him, "STOP!" and then destroy his work?

I posted this in the last topic and I'll post it again..

Personally when it comes to abortion, I follow this Verse and Hadith

"Then We made the sperm into a clot of congealed blood; then of that clot We made a (foetus) lump; then we made out of that lump bones and clothed the bones with flesh; then We developed out of it another creature. So blessed be Allah, the best to create!" 23:14

Also this Hadith:

The Prophet said: each of you is constituted in your mother's womb for forty days as a nutfa (sperm or a zygote), then it becomes a 'alaqa (leech like structure) for an equal period, then a mudgha (chewed lump) for another equal period, then the angel is sent, and he breathes the soul into it.

I believe that as long as before the soul enters the body, I'm okay with abortion..

A child is a living human being from the moment of conception.

To take it's life is murder of the most foul kind - murder of a defenseless human being.

A few years ago, when scientists thought they discovered some microscopic particles that looked like evidence of bacteria on Mars, what did the headlines say ?

"Possible LIFE found on Mars".

And yet we can debate whether a fetus has life or not ?

There certainly is life within the fetus in its early stages. however I don't believe its human life... if that were the case then the same applies to the animals, plants and all other creatures that we eat and kill everyday or the sperm and eggs we get out of our bodies for whatever reasons there is.


Look at it: Can you imagine hiring a stranger to put a vacuum cleaner inside you and suck that to pieces, pulling off the arms and legs and the head? Horrible!

Forget about the soul for a minute: God is doing a masterpiece of work, slowly forming a human being which is already alive and has a hearbeat, a brain, eyes, hands, feet, blood...

God is already at work creating one of us...who are we to tell Him, "STOP!" and then destroy his work?


-There is also abortion with consent where the mother agrees for that stranger to put a vacuum cleaner (although i highly doubt they do it like so)

-God also makes things that can hinder and harm us... Even if they were born with such diseases, parents will go to great lengths to try and get rid of whatever diseases children are born with.. If parents are given the option from the beginning I'm willing to bet they would do it immediately.

I posted this in the last topic and I'll post it again..

Personally when it comes to abortion, I follow this Verse and Hadith

"Then We made the sperm into a clot of congealed blood; then of that clot We made a (foetus) lump; then we made out of that lump bones and clothed the bones with flesh; then We developed out of it another creature. So blessed be Allah, the best to create!" 23:14

Also this Hadith:

The Prophet said: each of you is constituted in your mother's womb for forty days as a nutfa (sperm or a zygote), then it becomes a 'alaqa (leech like structure) for an equal period, then a mudgha (chewed lump) for another equal period, then the angel is sent, and he breathes the soul into it.

I believe that as long as before the soul enters the body, I'm okay with abortion..



There certainly is life within the fetus in its early stages. however I don't believe its human life... if that were the case then the same applies to the animals, plants and all other creatures that we eat and kill everyday or the sperm and eggs we get out of our bodies for whatever reasons there is.





-There is also abortion with consent where the mother agrees for that stranger to put a vacuum cleaner (although i highly doubt they do it like so)

-God also makes things that can hinder and harm us... Even if they were born with such diseases, parents will go to great lengths to try and get rid of whatever diseases children are born with.. If parents are given the option from the beginning I'm willing to bet they would do it immediately.


Well, I see what you are saying about human life. But all I'm saying is biologically, it's human life. It's not an elephant or an orange tree. If you take a fertilized ovum and give it to a scientist, he can tell you if it's alive or dead, just like he can tell if other forms of microscopic life are alive or dead.

And he can also tell you what species it belongs to. He can count the cromosomes and tell you what kind of living being this is: monkey, elephant, fish, frog, or human. It's not, like, some intermediate form. Even at the earliest stages, each species is different.

So: it's alive. It's a member of a particular species: homo sapiens, Mankind. It's just an early stage of human life. At least biologically speaking.

If you don't believe that abortions are done at that early point through what are essentially vacuum vacuum cleaners, you don't know much about abortion. Here you go:

Suction Aspiration

This is the most common method of abortion during the first 12 weeks of pregnancy. General or local anaesthesia is given to the mother and her cervix is quickly dilated. A suction curette (hollow tube with a knife-edged tip) is inserted into the womb. This instrument is then connected to a vacuum machine by a transparent tube. The vacuum suction, 29 times more powerful than a household vacuum cleaner, tears the fetus and placenta into small pieces which are sucked through the tube into a bottle and discarded.

http://www.lifesite.net/abortiontypes/

And this is the beautiful result below:

http://www.lifesite.net/abortiontypes/suctionabortion10weeks.jpg

Yes, parents want the best for their children. But they want to CURE their children of diseases, they don't want to kill them because they have diseases. And who says to his handicapped child: "Oh, I wish I had known about your disease when you were a nutfa. I would have killed you. Better if you had never lived! I am sorry you were born, it was a mistake."

Here is another translation of the Quran passage you cited:

"Then we developed the drop into a hanging (embryo), then
developed the hanging (embryo) into a bite-size (fetus),
then created the bite-size (fetus) into bones, then
covered the bones with flesh. We thus produce (Anshaa) a new
creature. Most blessed is GOD, the best Creator."

This translation says that this is the way Allah produces a new creature, not that it was developed "out of another" creature.

Well, I see what you are saying about human life. But all I'm saying is biologically, it's human life. It's not an elephant or an orange tree. If you take a fertilized ovum and give it to a scientist, he can tell you if it's alive or dead, just like he can tell if other forms of microscopic life are alive or dead.

So? So is just any other lifeform where I wouldn't hesitate to smack (bug), eat (livestock), clean myself off of(bacteria is a lifeform too)

And he can also tell you what species it belongs to. He can count the cromosomes and tell you what kind of living being this is: monkey, elephant, fish, frog, or human. It's not, like, some intermediate form. Even at the earliest stages, each species is different.

So: it's alive. It's a member of a particular species: homo sapiens, Mankind. It's just an early stage of human life. At least biologically speaking.

Aren't people then commiting a crime when people masturbate? I mean they are killing half of a human (half being the sperm and the other being the egg) think of the little creatures!


Yes, parents want the best for their children. But they want to CURE their children of diseases, they don't want to kill them because they have diseases. And who says to his handicapped child: "Oh, I wish I had known about your disease when you were a nutfa. I would have killed you. Better if you had never lived! I am sorry you were born, it was a mistake."

And since when did parents have discussions with their unborn kids? With technology today they can simply erase the problem.. who knows maybe with the technology of tomorrow they can actually fix it genetically but until then you can't expect parents to sit idle once they hear of their unborn kids with said conditions.


This translation says that this is the way Allah produces a new creature, not that it was developed "out of another" creature.

As far as I can see, you certainly misunderstood the verse my friend. As far as I know from my bio class a cell is a living thing, when a group of cells come together they form tissue, and when many tissue form together they form an organ and when the organs combine together they form another living thing. Its as if its a heirarchy of systems or levels. Even look at the word NEW, the way i see it, its at that moment when a newer creature is formed. Basically you collect a bunch of clay, you mix them together to have an even bigger clay.

And that pic looks like my lunch...tasty :yes:

No, Morpha, a sperm is not an independent living organism, just a cell from a human body that has temporary life, but it is not an organism. It doesn't grow or change or divide into two or undergo processes of healing like all independent organisms do. Your sperm just has a burst of movement and then dies, like your other cells. It has your genetic code. It's not "half a human being", just a cell from your body.

But when a sperm fertilizes an egg, a new organism is formed with a new genetic code and its own DNA. It's a new living being, not like a sperm, which simply has the genetic code of its father. And the kind of living being it is is human, not elephant. Elephants have these stages too, but they are different, of course.

After that, it's just a steady, step-by-step progress, biologically speaking. No sudden biological "change" when it becomes a "human being."

I think abortion "freedom" dehumanizes us and makes us talk and think in utterly barbaric ways.

My point about talking to handicapped children was not about talking to them before they are born, but after they are grown. What father thinks about his handicapped son or would say to him, "I wish I had killed you before you were ever born. What a mistake you are! It's a shame we didn't have the technology to erase you, your life is worthless. Want a slice of pizza?"

If you think handicapped people or people with congenital illness are pleased by thinking that tells them that their lives are worthless and they should never have been born, you should think again. My guess is that most people who kill their children for such reasons are not thinking really of the children. They are thinking of all the hard work they will put in and the money they will lose.

And if God created them that way and was going to "blow a soul" into them, what was He doing? Making a mistake? Or doing something with a purpose? You want to get in ahead of Him and say, "No soul for this one, thank You very much. I know better. Sorry to interrupt Your work. Make another plan" ?

The best way I can illustrate my problem with pro-abortion thinking is to repeat your own comments without adding my own ideas:

they can simply erase the problem
erase the problem
erase

And even better is your caption to the picture of what happens when you "simply erase":

http://www.lifesite.net/abortiontypes/suctionabortion10weeks.jpg
"And that pic looks like my lunch...tasty :yes: "
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May God have mercy on us and forgive us. Amen.