Holocaust and allrelated documents are more of a myth than a historic fact.

Holocaust and allrelated documents are more of a myth than a historic fact.

I believe Islam is man-made as well. Everyone has their own opinion, I guess.

I believe Islam is man-made as well. Everyone has their own opinion, I guess.

Well of course, but in your case, I need your employer's approval letter because your post is off-topic :rolleyes:

Sting,

You wrote: "Holocaust and allrelated documents are more of a myth than a historic fact"

As you are a Muslim man, I completely understand that you are used to your word being accepted as the truth (unlike female Muslims)

However, in normal worlds, people are expected to back-up their statements with things called 'FACTS'

pinnochio I have shared facts and resources in other threads and I have no time to waste on you now. Actually, I might have given you another shot, but the problem is that you and your friends write all sort of nonsense without backing them up with even X Rated facts or websites.

So you are the last one who should think about backing up posts with sources.

Thank you now let me see whats cooking for Dinner :p

pinnochio I have shared facts and resources in other threads and I have no time to waste on you now. Actually, I might have given you another shot, but the problem is that you and your friends write all sort of nonsense without backing them up with even X Rated facts or websites.

So you are the last one who should think about backing up posts with sources.

Thank you now let me see whats cooking for Dinner :p

We've never seen any of these 'facts and resources'. Speaking of wasting time, please quit wasting ours.

We've never seen any of these 'facts and resources'. Speaking of wasting time, please quit wasting ours.


You mean geting educated about Holocaust is a waste of time ? No ! I just wanted to be educated about so called holocaust. Stings point of views is logic. It made me think about the possibilities that exist in the West in general. Think about all those stories packed there called fictitious. This one could be in the same category. I am not saying it is. But imagine of a "final solution" that is intended to wipe off a whole society. Wasn't Lebanon's recent American backed genocide also a holocaust ?




.

Which recent genocide / holocaust in Lebanon are you referring to ?

Which recent genocide / holocaust in Lebanon are you referring to ?

Yes, please fill us in with info concerning this genocide in Lebanon you speak of?

Wudhab and RedDot please check the following links:

1. http://hrw.org/english/docs/2006/07/30/lebano13881.htm
2.http://uruknet.info/?p=m25240

If it wasn't for the Hezbollah, the Israeli animals would have continued murdering more and more innocent Lebanese.

Methinks, Sting, that you have had an historically challenged education - especially regarding Israel and the citizens of that small country that represents maybe 1/8th of one percent of an all arab and hostile middle east - a middle east that does not recognize Jews right to exist regardless of their ancient ties to that small corner of the world as well as slandering the beauty that is Judaism by teaching lies continuously to generations of innocent children, abusing them by rearing them with weapons and using them as shields. Did you ever wonder with the millions of dollars suha and arafat had access to why the poor palestinians got no infrastructure?? Why do they palestinians have nothing but jobs in Israel ! and their profits from digging tunnels under their homes and smuggling in more weapons to lob into Israeli neighborhoods whenever the mood strikes?????? Why is it that Israel and Jews can give up their homes and greenhouses and land to poor palestinians and these same so called 'palestinians' can continue lobbing mortars into Jewish schools and buses???I could go on and on but why not research the question before making comments about the 'israeli animals' - such nonsense.
http://www.palestinefacts.org/

Methinks, Sting, that you have had an historically challenged education - especially regarding Israel and the citizens of that small country that represents maybe 1/8th of one percent of an all arab and hostile middle east
323 million people is the population of Arabs from Oman to Morocco. 1/8 (12.5%) of 323,000,000 which = 40,375,000 which is totally wrong! Palestine's population is 9,395,000 which represent only 3.9% of the whole Arab population.

… a middle east that does not recognize Jews right to exist regardless of their ancient ties to that small corner of the world
OK, where are you from? Spain Muslims have strong ties to Spain, they actually lived there for a quite long time and that is not so far in history though, tomorrow we will go and kick all the Spanish people and start our colonies there! Worse of the idea is that the ancient ties you are talking about for the Jews in Palestine goes back to 5000 years ago! With this logic, no land on earth is the same property of those who live on its soil now! I think Americans don’t own America and that is belongs to Red Indians for more than 16000 year! only 400 years ago Europeans killed those inhabitants and ceased their land this is the same logic they want to implement in Palestine today, but sure this will not happen…why? Because Those who own the land are not the 9 million who live in it, 2 Billion Muslims share the ownership of this land, so sure Europeans and Americans can't kill that much of people and repeat what they did in the past!

… as well as slandering the beauty that is Judaism …
Did you take this from president Bush's speech or something?!! Slandering the beauty of Judaism?? Can you please enlighten us with ways and shapes of this beauty?

… by teaching lies continuously to generations of innocent children, abusing them by rearing them with weapons and using them as shields
This is typically the way to affect the heart of soft minded people, showing sympathy towads those children by calling them "innocent", there is nothing in the souls of these children left to be innocent then shooting them in the heart with a machine gun! Do you think these children need to be taught anything? Are they studying in luxurious schools, living a wonderful life, going annually to Disneyland, and while this is happening they are being injected (by evil Muslims) with "hate to Jews" who have done nothing wrong and who are the essence of beauty?

Sir you are talking about children who see their moms and sisters being raped and killed, and their brothers and fathers being smashed under tanks or blown into pieces by heavy artillery! You are talking about children who are pulled from their bed in the middle of the night to face the wall guns in their heads and bullets in their fathers brains blowing it to wall...About Ladies screaming and deep grief...Deep Fear!

… Did you ever wonder with the millions of dollars suha and arafat had access to why the poor palestinians got no infrastructure??
Great, What should we do about corruption (if what you are saying is correct)? Can you stop this in USA? In RSSA? Or any other country in the world? Suha & Arafat are not the whole Palestinian nation, they are just 2 individuals. If they done mistakes there is a place called court where people can accuse them. Now what that got to do with the subject we are talking about?

Why do they palestinians have nothing but jobs in Israel ! and their profits from digging tunnels under their homes and smuggling in more weapons to lob into Israeli neighborhoods whenever the mood strikes??????
The contradiction you are talking about is correct in only one case, if Israel is not Palestine, but as far as you are taking my land with power of gun and killing, putting a chain in my neck and giving me food like a dog, you must expect such tunnels to be digged and bombs to be planted. It is not a mood strike, it is chance for freedom strike!

… Why is it that Israel and Jews can give up their homes and greenhouses and land to poor palestinians and these same so called 'palestinians' can continue lobbing mortars into Jewish schools and buses???
Because the word "Their" is not correct, no matter you said it a 1000,000 times, NOTHING IN PALESTINE IS A PROPERTY FOR JEWS! (wrote it in caps so you can read my lips)! Let them take their homes and greenhouses and plant it in the moon, they are not welcome in OUR LAND…"PALESTINE"!

I could go on and on but why not research the question before making comments about the 'israeli animals' - such nonsense.
This is the only comment which I find logical and modest 'israeli animals'…I second that…SmartAss!

part one

Greetings to any Palestinian who may be reading this. My name is David White. I am a citizen of New Zealand, a small, Western, nominally Christian country in the South Pacific Ocean. I am not Jewish, or Christian, I guess I'm vaguely agnostic.

Writing this letter is a good way for me to discuss the horrible mess in the Middle East, spell out as many relevant points as possible concerning the state of the Palestinian people, and to see what can be made of them. I don't speak Arabic, so I can only communicate with English-speaking Palestinians.

There aren't many here in NZ, though, and I haven't yet met any. I don't know how many will ever see these words, but, here's hoping someone does. I have a post-graduate university education, and I suppose I could be called an intellectual. Unfortunately, many such people have supported abhorrent ideologies such as Nazism, and continue to support Communism, so I refuse to describe myself in this way. I don't want to be considered as another "trendy leftie" academic, as we would say in NZ. So, unlike many university-educated types, I am anti-totalitarian, pro-peace up to a point, pro-democracy, pro-capitalism, (except the capitalists running Enron), and skeptical about the "cult of victimhood." I'm quite safe here in New Zealand, and no-one I know has been killed by a Palestinian.

My perspective of Palestinians is something like this - you're Arabs (of course), mostly Muslim, but with a Christian minority. Many of you live outside Gaza/West Bank, mostly in Jordan and other Muslim countries, with some groups living in Western countries as well. You feel that you have been wronged by Israel and are fighting to destroy them.

As for my perspective on Israel, I see them like this: They are a mainly Jewish, small, free-market democracy with a large Arab minority, surrounded by hostile Arab dictatorships. They have an ancestral claim to Israel, their State was created as a refuge from persecution, they have a right to exist and, having survived a holocaust in Europe, they should not have to sit still and wait for another one in the Middle East.

A DOWN UNDER OVERVIEW:

Over the last few months, the conflict in the disputed territories of Gaza and the West Bank has turned into a war between the Palestinian people and Israel. (I will not apologize for using the term "disputed", as I believe it reflects a rather complicated situation more accurately than "occupied").

Your interpretation, as far as I can tell, seems to be something like this: You have no State of your own, and you are fighting a war against those you call "Zionist oppressors" and "colonial imperialists", in order to create a Palestinian State.
Accusations of massacre and human rights violations by the Israeli Army are being
tossed around like confetti. Your late leader, Yasser Arafat, used to brag that he
would "martyr" himself rather than "surrender", and that bungling and incompetent
organization, the United Nations (again, no apologies for venting personal opinions),
is trying to do what it is constitutionally incapable of doing, i.e. "saving future
generations from the scourge of war".

The Israelis see things differently, of course. For them, it's a simple battle for survival. They offered you a State, and you attacked them instead. They have occupied Palestinian towns, have fought it out with various armed groups, and desperate attempts are being made by the US, other Arab countries and the UN to break the so-called "cycle of violence". As a result, the Palestinian situation at the moment generally, can be explained by putting it into New Zealand idiom, put bluntly, the Palestinian people are buggered. Munted. Stuffed. Rooted(American equivalent = screwed. British equivalent: 'done over').

It's like this: Yasser Arafat had turned down the Israeli offer of a Palestinian
homeland in Gaza and the West Bank. You want, or Arafat claimed that you wanted, a Palestine "from the river to the sea;" in other words, "all or nothing".

There is one insuperable obstacle to this - Israel. No matter how eloquent your
arguments or numerous your martyrs, no matter how many European diplomats are angered by, or UN resolutions are passed against, Israel, the Israelis are not going to pack up and leave. The only way you will get the Palestinian State you want is by destroying Israel.

This is what you have been trying to do since 1948, and the current "intifada"
launched in 2000 is your latest effort. However, the Israelis are not standing there
and letting you kill them. They are fighting back, and if they have to choose
between their own survival and yours, guess which choice they'll make.

A vast wringing of hands, a great fluttering of Diplomats. That has been the overall
response to the disaster you have created for yourselves. You, the Palestinian
Arabs, are obviously hoping for some kind of international intervention to save you.
As we in New Zealand would say, "Get Real!"

The European Union and the UN have demonstrated on numerous occasions in the past their incompetence and total incapacity to take any sort of firm action without American leadership. Ask your Muslim brothers of Bosnia-Herzegovina, about how effective the EU and the UN were in protecting them without American intervention. In spite of the impression that American diplomatic efforts have created, the US will not take sides against Israel, and will eventually abandon its futile attempts at evenhandedness. If they do join forces militarily with Israel in their war against terrorism, your fighters will be snuffed out like candle flames.

As for your "beloved Arab brothers" in the Middle East, they make a great deal of noise about your "liberation struggle", and have sent money and arms, but have not sent a single tank to save you. Their diplomatic proposals are ones that could have been offered at any time, and are aimed at benefiting them, not Palestinians. The Egyptians themselves will not declare war on Israel unless they receive $100 billion to cover their costs.

Do you really believe that the rest of your Arab Muslim brothers
think you are worth that much? Do you really believe they will put your interests
ahead of their own? Although your friends and Arabs in Europe are passing sanctions and burning synagogues in your support, not a single EU warship has sailed to
your aid, and not a single NATO aircraft has dropped a single bomb on your "Zionist oppressors".

I have noted that large numbers of people, including
university-educated intellectuals support the Palestinian cause. Don't be misled by
this. No matter how many western intellectuals, news media and international
organizations may support the Palestinian struggle, none of this matters because America stands by Israel.

part two

THE UNBEARABLE BURDEN OF LIFE:

How did you get into such a mess? As you yourselves would say and have indeed said on many occasions, it isn't your fault. It's always the "Great Satan" America, and it's "Lesser Satan", Israel, that you blame for all your woes. Everything that you do, such as your "martyrdom operations", are described as the products of your "rage" at being "dispossessed of your land", and of your "helplessness" in the face of "Zionist" might.

There are only 300 million Arabs against over 5 million Jews! How unfair! How unjust, that so many can do so little against so few! A number of Western commentators have put Arab failures down to numerous cultural factors, not the least being Islam. Your religious beliefs in martyrdom and jihad, coupled with a total inability to accept any blame for your own predicament, have combined to do you great and lasting damage.

Look closely at why Western countries such as Israel have succeeded, and Muslim countries have not. Western countries are free-market democracies. Muslim countries (other than Turkey) aren't. Surely that should tell you something.

WHY I STAND?

As I said, I do not, and I will not, support the Palestinian
cause.

Why not? I have a number of reasons, and here they are:

1. You have made it clear beyond any shadow of doubt that you intend to destroy Israel and kill or drive out its Jewish population. This is genocide, pure and simple. You justify this by saying that Israel has committed many crimes against your people, and that you seek "justice". I say this in response- NOTHING WHATSOEVER is an acceptable justification for genocide. Loss of land, humiliation at being militarily defeated - others have suffered these and moved on to create new nations and opportunities for themselves.

Examples abound - the Germans thrown out of East Prussia in Europe in 1945, the Nationalist Chinese who fled to Taiwan in 1949, to name but two. Germans and Taiwanese have coped with military defeat and the loss of land. They haven't warred with their neighbours, nor have they launched terrorist attacks upon them. Both countries have more wealth than any Arab nation. Why can't Palestinians cope? Are Germans and Chinese better able to deal with adversity than Arabs?

2. You have accused the Israelis of "genocide" against you. Here's a question for you: Israel has atomic bombs and powerful military forces. If they really, truly wanted you all dead, they could easily do it. Why haven't they?

If the Israelis went all-out, you would be, as we say in New Zealand, "dog tucker". Why did they spend so much time negotiating with your leaders? Because Israel wants peace and secure borders. You refuse to give them even those. You plan genocide and accuse Israel of the same crime. Prove it!

3. The use of terrorism. Killing people for being Jewish is despicable. Terrorist attacks on innocent civilians are also despicable. (At this point, I'd like to pause and get a question of nomenclature cleared up, regarding those Palestinians who kill themselves and others with explosives strapped to their bodies. You call them "martyrs". Western media sources and academics debate the precise term to use in describing them. Others, including the Israelis, call them terrorists. I have a better, more appropriate term. I prefer to use the word "kamikazes". The original kamikazes appeared in 1944, in the war in the Pacific. They were Japanese Navy and Army pilots, organized into "Special Attack Units" with orders to crash their planes into American warships, in the hope of destroying them - "one plane, one ship". Their initial impact was similar to that of the Al-Qaeda attacks on New York Twin Towers and the Pentagon-shock and horror. (I noted that many Palestinians appeared on Western TV celebrating the September attacks). Note: The American response, in both cases was not the one hoped for.

Once the shock had worn off, the US set out to destroy the kamikazes, and terrible destruction was rained down on Japan, ending only with 2 atomic bombs. You know what is happening right now in Afghanistan to the Al-Qaeda group.

4. Using children as suicide bombers. Anyone who teaches children to kill themselves in suicide attacks is not worth supporting under any circumstances. For you to do this to your children is an abomination.

A commentator on a Web magazine said that if the Palestinians laid down their arms, they would get peace and land. If the Israelis laid down their arms they would be killed. You know that is true, even if most of Europe doesn't.

Your cause is evil, because it seeks destruction at any price.

Genocide is not justice. Sacrificing your own children for the sake of your leader's personal ambitions is wicked.

THAT'S WHY I CANNOT SUPPORT YOU. THAT 'S WHY I STAND WITH ISRAEL.


PALESTINIAN PAST AND FUTURE?

The Second World War in Europe ended with Hitler's suicide. He was replaced by Admiral Doenitz who quickly made peace with the Allies.

Japan's leader, Emperor Hirohito, decided on surrender rather than see his nation destroyed.

If Arafat had chosen surrender, though, will the rest of the Palestinians go along with it? He died. Did the war end? If the answer to both of these questions is No, then the Palestinian people are doomed. Do you really prefer death as a people? Do you fully comprehend what you are doing? If you are indeed aware that the path you have embarked upon leads to destruction, and if you have freely chosen to walk in that direction, then as a people you are truly beyond hope.

Are Palestinians really going to be a "Kamikaze Nation"? Are you really going to give Israel no other option except your destruction?

If they must choose, then as Israeli historian Martin Van Creveld said,

"Better a terrible end than terror without end".

Do not think that kamikaze tactics can get you what you want. The Israelis can tell you all about Masada, if you ask them. Remember what happened to the Japanese at places like Okinawa and Iwo Jima.

Palestinians deserve better than the current mess you are in now - but before you can be given anything, you must offer a sincere peace, you must stop teaching your children to hate, you must stop believing that "victimhood" justifies everything and - above all other things - GIVE UP ISRAEL! Accept that you will never go there again except perhaps as workers or tourists. Accept that Jews are human beings too. Accept the verdict of 1948 and learn to live with it. Invest in anks, not bombs.

Build computer chips, not Kalashnikovs. Teach science and mathematics, not hate. Look to the future, not the past. Stop blaming Americans and Jews for all your problems, and take responsibility for your own actions. Read those parts in the Quran about living with the "peoples of the Book".

Golda Meir, the former Israeli Prime minister, is quoted as saying
"there will be peace in the Middle East only when the Arabs love their children more than they hate Israel."

Every time I see pictures of Palestinian children waving guns and wearing dummy explosives, then I can only say she is right. The alternative to peace is not victory but death. Think about it - before it's too late.

From an Infidel to Those Who Submit, and are living in the Holy Land - May God grant you steadfastness in the face of things that cannot be changed, the capacity to cope with those that can be changed, and the wisdom and the ability to tell the difference.

David White, Auckland, New Zealand.

*This thread has been created since all the replies to it are off-topic, now stick to the topic of this new thread, instead of making it with many topics to avoid getting your post deleted, thanks*