Friendly Debate...Why Christians Don't Want To Talk About It? [Archive]

Jeff

21-09-06, 03:56 PM

Hey Haroundb! I'm going to start trying to give you some idea about how we Christians understand these things.

First of all, let me congratulate you on your questions. Everybody knows about the big talk the Pope gave in Germany. Well, the subject of his talk was not Islam. The subject was Faith and Reason. Faith in God should be reasonable, because Faith is Reasonable and Reason comes from God. So if something seems unreasonable, the best thing in the world is to question it!

Okay, the Most Holy Trinity, three Persons in One God.

The first thing to understand is: we believe that this is something that GOD TOLD US. That's why we believe it. No Christian thinks you could come to this conclusion just by thinking about God. That there is only One God, yes, you can discover that just by thinking about the World, which He created. But three persons in one God was revealed to us by Him. Muslims believe in the Quran, I think, BECAUSE God revealed it, in their belief. It's a bit similar.

The second thing to understand is: the Trinity is a Mystery. Nobody can expect to fully understand it. After all, it's a Secret. It's a Secret about God's own Inside Life. God is the most Mysterious thing in the universe. Allahu Akbar, God is Great. He is so Great, that our puny, little minds can't hope to understand Him very well. If anybody tells you something about God that is simple and easy to understand, it's probably not true! Nothing about God is easy to understand; He is far above us.

Third, God is Personal. This we can understand with our human minds. We can't understand it WELL, but we can understand it. What that means is that God isn't just a Thing. He isn't just an Object. He isn't just a blind Force or Energy. He has Will, because He Wants us to do this and not to do that. He has a Mind, or rather He IS a Mind, because He Sees and Understands. God isn't SomeTHING. He is SomeBODY. God is a HE, not an IT. God is a PERSON, or at least He is PERSONAL, to use the technical term.

Okay, so far, I think Muslims and Christians might be able to agree. Here is where we split off, I think.

God told us, we Christians believe, that if we look at Him from Outside, He is One. There is No Other God than Him. He is the Only God and there is no other beside Him.

But we believe that God told us that that is not how He experiences Himself. He experiences Himself as Three Persons. This is the way God is and always has been and always will be.

What could that mean? Well, St. Augustine described it this way.

If Haroundb thinks of Himself, he has an image or a concept of himself in his mind. If you think about an orange in your mind, your thought, your image of the orange is not a real orange. It has an existence only in your mind. If you think about YOURSELF in your mind, it's not real, it has an existence in your own mind only. And it's not the same as the real you, is it? It's your Idea of yourself, your Self-Image.

God also "thinks" of Himself. How could He NOT think of Himself? He is the most interesting and the most wonderful thing in the Universe. And before He created angels and men and the world, there was nothing else to think about!

But God is not material. He is Pure Spirit. But that Pure Spirit isn't less real than Matter, which He created, it is MORE REAL. When God has an Idea of Himself, when He thinks of Himself, it doesn't just have a shadowy, vague, mental reality like our ideas do. It's real, just as real as God Himself. In fact, it IS God Himself. Not ANOTHER God, but distinct. God experiences Himself as the One Who Knows. But also as the One Who Is Known.

God, the One Who Knows, not only SEES God, the One Who is Known, but He Loves Him, too. Naturally: who wouldn't? What or who is more lovable than God? And God, the One Who Is Known, sees and loves God, the Knower also. And this Love that they exchange isn't just a shadowy, vague feeling like it would be for human beings, it is also Real, just as Real as God Himself. In fact, it, too, IS God Himself. The Life of God, the Breath of God, you could say. The Spirit of God. The HOLY Spirit.

And since God is Someone, not Something, all these ways of being that God has are Persons, because God is not a blind force, remember, like gravity, He is Somebody, He is personal in His very nature.

Now we can't understand this very well. In fact, we can hardly understand it at all. But I think we can understand it well enough to be able to say that it makes a kind of sense. We can grasp it enough to believe it. As we can grasp the existence of God enough to believe it. We only see a tiny bit of what we are talking about, but that's natural, because God is beyond anything we can understand.

Okay, but still, can something be one and also three? Well, why not?

One thing cannot be three in the material world. Arithmetic applies to objects in the world, but we have no idea if it could be different in other worlds, if God created them. And we certainly have no idea how it applies to God's own Life, if it applies at all. If God wants to be One and also Three, who can stop Him?

And even in the material world, things that seem contradictory can be so. Light seems to exist as both a wave and also as particles. But particles aren't waves and waves aren't particles.

Two parallel lines never meet do they? It's a basic principle of geometry and everyone understands it. But if you assume that two parallel lines ALWAYS meet, you get a kind of geometry that they call non-Euclidean. And in some cases, it seems to be applicable to the real world. In fact, the more we study time and space, the more mysterious and seemingly contradictory they become.

Well, anyway, I gave you a long, long essay. And I'm sure it's very confusing, but it's the best I can do for now. I'm not trying to convince you, my Muslim brother, of the truth of the Most Holy Trinity. But at least I can give you some idea of what we mean when we speak of it and some idea of how it's possible for us to believe in it. And I believe in it with all my heart.

You're welcome to ask questions, of course. The other questions you already asked, I will take up one-by-one. But they all come under the headings of our other great Mysteries. You asked about the Mystery of the Most Holy Trinity in your first question. The others have to do with the Mystery of the Incarnation (God took Human Flesh and Became Man) and the Mystery of the Atonement (God made up for our sins, He paid for them with His own Precious Blood). It's a good thing to know these words, 'Incarnation' and 'Atonement', because, like 'Trinity', it makes discussion with Christians easier.

Well, I'm sure I didn't satisfy you, but I hope it wasn't too boring! I'll take up the other questions after a bit. Consider this the first installment. And of course, if you get tired of my long, boring talking, just tell me to stop and I will!

elbadwi

21-09-06, 09:31 PM

I got totally interested in reading the whole lecture twice!
this was the ANSWER i always looked for! ;)

Thanx Jeff, i hope all christians are the same as u!

Jeff

22-09-06, 06:36 AM

Thanks elbadwi! I'm sure not everybody will be 100% satisfied. But even if we don't agree, it's good if we can see through each other's eyes just to understand.

I'm glad you could understand it, I tried to make it as clear as I could. I'll try tomorrow with some of the others.

I want to add one thing, though, and then I promise to stop.

Remember "God, the One Who Knows", "God, the One Who is Known," and "God, the Love between the Knower and the Known One"? In case you didn't pick up on it, those are what we Christians call God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Three Persons in One God.

I'll try tomorrow to answer another question from the list...it takes time, so be patient with my writing. I'm doing the best I can! :-)

Jeff

22-09-06, 08:31 PM

Okay, on to the next question!

This question is a bit more complicated because it deals with two things at once: The Incarnation and the Atonement.

It's also complicated because it really asks several questions at once.

But I'll try my best!

The first part of my answer has to be the same: We believe it because God told us it was true. And we can't prove it; it's not like mathematics!

And the second part borrows from my first post: We all both have mysteries that are difficult to explain to outsiders. Why God created or allows evil; why God cares whether we do right or wrong; why a merciful God would allow the punishments of Hell; why God would write a Holy Book in Arabic and why it would need so much explanation to understand; why God would want us to go around a building in a certain city... Even especially why God is so hard to see clearly if He wants us to believe in Him!

The Christian message is not that God HAD to do it the way he did it. It's not that there was no other way. It's that this is the way He did it! If God does something, we accept first and then try to understand.

Still, the question is an excellent one. From outside, the claim may seem strange at first and its perfectly legitimate to ask: Why should God become a man and die for our sins?

One thing I want to dispense with first. No Christian ever said that God the Father "married" Mary. They just say that Mary was a Virgin, that Christ had no human father, no male agency produced his conception, but a miracle of God. And I believe--you will correct me if I am wrong--that Muslims agree on this point...

Now onwards...

Humans don't just sin. They are in a CONDITION of sin. St. Paul says, "Oh miserable man that I am! I know what is right, but I do what is wrong, even though I don't want to!" Sin is something that starts inside. It's like a deep, deep trap with its roots at the bottom of our souls. Christianity teaches that even very good people are not satisfactory to God. When a man, even a good man, goes to his room alone at night and examines his soul, he finds dark, dark things.

This is not the way God created us, Christianity says. Originally, we were created good. But we were also created as Free Beings who could choose good or evil. And at the beginning of time, the first human chose to follow his own will instead of the Will of God. That wasn't just one sin. That was the Great Sin and it pulled the human race down into disaster. It introduced a kind of "disease" into the whole human race--we are all deeply spoiled and attached to sin and we are weak! We look around us and we can see it. Why do we do such stupid, small things? Why do we tell those little lies we tell? Why do we hurt people's feelings for no reason? Why do we get angry with our friends over nothing and refuse to forgive them? Why do we look at pornography? Why do we collect so many things we don't need and give so little to the poor? Why are there lonely people with no one to talk to and we won't take the time to visit them? Why do we tell ourselves that we will get up early in the morning and then sleep late? Why, why, why? We don't want to be this way and we somehow know that we shouldn't be this way. Something is wrong! How can we escape? Who will save us?

This condition of evil, Christians call "Original Sin." Everyone, even babies (who have no personal sin of course), is caught up in it. We have that darkness, that cancer in us and when we grow up, it spreads and spreads.

God, looking at us from above, condemns us in Justice. But He also pities and loves us and wants to cure us of this disease. Because God's plan is not just to "say the sins are okay" and forgive us that way. God wants to do a Huge Miracle. He wants to turn all the evil of human history into Good. And he wants us to be fit for the plan he has for all of us. Because his plan is not only to forgive us for sinning. No, His plan is to make us fit to live with Him and to share His life--this is the great reward He has for us in the end.

Now, you may disagree with all of this or part of it. But I think you can see how Christians view the world and the condition of mankind. God wants to save us from disaster and cure us from this terrible disease of sin. He wants to turn all the evil in human hearts and human history in the direction of Good. How to do it?

Through Love. We Christians say, "God is Love." That's from the Bible. And one of the things we mean is that inside the nature of God Himself is Love. Remember the Trinity? God the Knower sees God the Known and Loves Him? And that Living Divine Love exchanged between the "persons" of God Himself is a living thing. Our human love between persons is modelled on it.

God wants to show us that Love, but he also wants to find away to cure the disease. He wants to put that Love somehow INTO the human race, like you put a drop of something good, some good drug into human history, so it can spread like a Good Stain, to reverse the Evil spreading Stain of Original Sin. God is the Doctor of Sin, administering his Medicine to us.

Now, I didn't answer your questions yet, did I? But the problem is, if you don't understand how Christians understand Sin and the condition of humanity, you can't understand the answers they give to your questions. Since this is getting so long, will you forgive me if I break off and come back tomorrow? It might not even be tomorrow--because of the weekend I might not be able to get back to my computer for the time it takes to do this until maybe Monday.

I hope anyway you will believe that I will not run away. Consider this the background for your questions. "What was God trying to DO when He became Man and died for our sins? He was trying to cure sin and reverse the evil course of human history." And next time, if you remember the background, I think you will be able to follow the answers!

Forgive me again for being so long. I try to make it short, but there is much to say. Because your questions are really asking for a whole explanation of my Faith, of what Christianity is. I wish I knew how to say it better.

wudjab

22-09-06, 08:38 PM

I'll say this.

I don't agree with most things Jeff has to say.

However, one must give credit where credit is due, and Jeff does a darn fine job of explaining Christian theology.

Jeff

22-09-06, 09:16 PM

Well, Wudjab, thank you. I'm not sure you are right--I see many shortcomings--but I appreciate your kindness.

In any case, I think my approach is the same all through. My Muslim friends here know that I love and respect them and that I honor them and their religion. I believe that it's better to point to and stress the Truth that you find in others, rather than looking for and criticizing the error. I believe that if you treat people as honorable and honest and remember that you are as bad or worse a sinner as they are, you will do far more good than if you treat them as enemies and try to make them ashamed and call into question everything that they hold dear.

I think that many of the Muslims here will honor and accept me and try to understand me because they know that I honor and respect them and their religion, which they love. That I don't just care about winning some debate today but I truly care about their children and their parents and their brothers and sisters and their art and their troubles with their friends and their problems with prostitutes and their new exciting lives at foreign universities and everything else. If I can understand and share the joy of Arabian Princess when she goes on pilgrimage to Mecca, if I can feel the happiness of Ramadan and Eid al-Fitr, if I can appreciate the truth and nobility of praying five times a day and acknowledging the power and graciousness of the One True God, then they will be able in turn to share some things with me, without fear that I am trying to steal something precious from them or dishonor something beautiful.

Whatever mistakes I make in other places are because of this.

Storm

22-09-06, 10:05 PM

Jeff ... I really really enjoyed reading your posting here ... Great effort your making and many things that I had some doubt about it .. kinda of come clear .. even that I don't agree with some of them but I do respect you :)

Haroundb

23-09-06, 08:52 AM

Great reply jeff, and I am reading every single word you wrote in this, really it is nice of you to take the effort and answer. I am really willing to start discussing things with you but I am keeping myself till you answer all that you can of these question so not to confuse the flow of ideas or to discourage you from continuing the wonderful job answering such difficult questions!

Waiting for more of your great replies...

BrAiKi

23-09-06, 07:34 PM

nice explanations Jeff, such a great effort :)
I have my own simple questions :D if u have time to answer them then please do!

- you said the bible tell us that the three is one, can you please quote it ?

- Christ said that only God is good (I guess u know what chapter I'm talking about) or when he speaks of the holy spirit, he says it comes from the Father... Doesn't that show that he's saying that the Father isn't/isn't like the Son ?

- also christ says before he dies "elli elli.. lama sabachtani" means "God, God, why have you forsaken me?" so did God really forsake him ?

thats it for now, i'll come up with furthur questions :)
n ramadhan kareem :D

liberty

24-09-06, 11:11 PM

Jeff has done a fine and very patient job here. Good questions replied to with good answers (even if a bit more Platonistic than I would offer).

One fine point that Jeff chose to let go. God did not marry Mary, the mother of Jesus. The earthly "father" of Jesus was Joseph, a carpenter by trade, and a fine and virtuous man. But Mary was conceived of the Holy Spirit, not of Joseph. Joseph played his role by being a loving and protective supporter of Mary and Jesus.

Along this line, I will briefly answer one other question before it is inevitably asked. . .Christians do not worship Mary. Mary was mortal, not divine. But Christians venerate her (not worship) as very special in Heaven as the "Mother of God".

Do many Christians pray to Mary? Yes, but as our friend, not as our God. Many Christians believe in the Communion of Saints. That means that all believers, both alive on Earth and in Heaven, are in one communion. Communication within that communion goes both ways all of the time.

Christianity is a very prayerful religion, and deeply mystical at root. No Christian prays because he or she has to, but because he or she really wants to continue that wonderful and rich personal relationship with God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit, all one God.

Maybe I only confused some. . .I hope not.

BrAiKi

25-09-06, 12:04 PM

BrAiKi

25-09-06, 12:22 PM

Quick definitions (pray)

verb: address God; say a prayer
verb: call upon in supplication; entreat

www.onelook.com

Dark Project

25-09-06, 01:19 PM

Christianity is a very prayerful religion, and deeply mystical at root. No Christian prays because he or she has to, but because he or she really wants to continue that wonderful and rich personal relationship with God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit, all one God.

Hmmm All one God .. How? Each has his own character to me as if you are telling me to mix salt and pepper and sugar and say its all the same !!
And strange enough God is muscular Jesus is Muscular but a Spirit is an Object you should refer to it as an IT object Not male or female How could they be one !!..

you said "Mary was mortal, not divine" Is Jesus divine ?

Jeff

25-09-06, 05:56 PM

Well, it's good that others are participating! I was starting to get the feeling that I was Mr. Christian Answer Man! :-D

I was wondering, too, if Ramadan was an appropriate time to do this. However, careful we are, sometimes our religions make conflicting claims and they can rub up against each other and cause friction. Feelings can be hurt, unintended pain can be caused. And sometimes people can be simply distracted or drawn into "fighting mode" when they don't mean to be. I hate to be a distraction when people are trying to get closer to God. But since people still seem to be interested, I'm going to continue. Let me know at any point if you want to take a break.

Thank you Haroundb for your kind words and your patience. Thank you everyone for being so polite and generous. Thank you, Storm Silent and Elbadwii. And Braiki, your questions are very good, too! I will enjoy trying to answer them! But let me try to answer Haroundb's first. I hope it won't take as long as it seems, but since they are basic questions, it will be a little easier for me to answer after I finish them...

I'll go on with my step-by-step answers to Haroundb's questions in the post below...

And Ramadan Kareem to everyone! Thank you, Braiki, for wishing me a Happy Ramadan. I love that kind of wish from Muslims. I always wish my Muslim friends Merry Christmas and Happy Easter, hoping that some of the joy of the day may come to them too, even if they are not of the Faith.

Jeff

25-09-06, 06:02 PM

Okay, here we go. Why the "Incarnation" as Christians call it: Why did God become Man? And why the "Atonement": Why did He then die to forgive sins?

Remember Original Sin and how, as Christians teach, we are all caught in a Web of Sin, an inescapable condition of Sin, which poisons all of us since birth. Try though we may to escape it, we cannot. It has deformed us and all of creation ever since the first man chose his own will over God's.

We need to be forgiven for our sins, but more than that, we need to be cured. We need to be cured individually, yes, but also as a whole; all of mankind needs to be delivered and is incapable of delivering itself. We need something to suck the poison out of history, as it were, to stain us with purity to reverse and overcome the Stain of Sin which infected us from the time of Adam.

We need, in short, Someone to Do It Right, as Adam Did It Wrong.

It's not just a formula, you see. If it were just a formula, a proclamation from above that we are forgiven, then perhaps the Incarnation would not have been necessary. We humans don't live just in a world of proclamations and formulas, though. Nor do we live in a merely physical, chemical or biological world. We live in a world of Persons. And persons are the "chemistry" that change persons.

Think how much the people that mean the most to you in your life, that have changed and shaped you for good or ill, have meant to you. The father who raised you and who you watched in intimacy. The friend who shared your life and your difficulties and joys and showed you--helped you to become--the person you need to be.

These people really do CHANGE you. They help you by example, sure, by telling and showing. But they help you by--to use a phrase that has become common nowadays--"being there for you." They help you by touching you, by connecting to you, by making their lives as human beings one with yours. There is a kind of spiritual sharing that comes from being the same kind of creature in the same kind of life that actually makes a transformation possible. This is a transformation through Love, through spiritual and physical sharing...and Love after all is God's specialty. He not only invented it, He is it, it is an essential part of His very Nature.

Christ, God made Man, became our Brother, to lead us, as one of us, as our Brother, out of the Prison of Sin and to change us by being one with us. You may say that this is impossible---but just for the sake of argument, put that aside and IMAGINE that it WERE possible. That God took human form and came down to share our lives. Wonder of wonders, miracle of miracles! Great mercy beyond telling. St. John, his beloved companion says, "In the Beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God...The One Who was from the Beginning: We have looked upon Him, we have seen him with our eyes! Our hands have handled Him!..." And that personal being, that touching, that "doing with" and "living with" by the Very God Himself, has a HUGE effect on all of human history, like ripples in a lake when you drop in a stone.

It's important to remember that God did not just come "in the form of" a man. He really BECAME a man. Not that He stopped being God. But that He adopted another way of being, He truly "assumed" human nature, took it on, knit it to Himself. Don't make the mistake of thinking that Christians think that He just "showed" Himself like a human, as angels are sometimes described as doing. No, He had a human body that was really His, a human mind, a human soul. He was "like unto us in all things but sin."

How did He do this? Well, of course, we don't know HOW God does ANYTHING! HOW did He create the World? What is the mechanism? IS there a mechanism? We're not talking about physics here, something that can be tested under a microscope and with bunsen burners and test tubes and formulas with lots of numbers and Greek letters and exponents: "E equals MC squared!" We are used to looking for scientific and technological answers, but we cannot find them here.

Still, one comparison that is helpful to some is this. Imagine a human author writing a book. He not only writes the book, but He puts Himself in the story as one of the characters. God, the Author of Life, doesn't just do that in imagination, as a human author would, though. When he "writes" a story, it is real and the characters are real. God put Himself in the "Story" of Mankind, in the "Story" of Creation.

One more thing: He came to be one of us to raise us up beyond what we were before. He came to share our life to make it possible for us to share His in eternity. He didn't just come to put things back the way they were before, but to USE that great Sin to make something even greater than before, the Redemption of the World and its union with Him in Glory.

Now, look, I think I better make the Atonement yet another chapter! I have blabbed and blabbed, but I hope that when I finish the earlier questions, it will be easier to answer the later ones more briefly. We will see!

Superbia

25-09-06, 06:47 PM

haroudb i'm liking thisthread ;)

liberty

25-09-06, 07:01 PM

Jeff, you are doing a very fine job of explication here.

liberty

25-09-06, 07:24 PM

BrAiKi wrote"

"lol whats the difference between praying to Mary and worshipping Mary ? I don't think there's any difference, in our language (atleast) if you pray to someone you worship him/her, so praying to anyone except God is forbidden in Islam"

And then you answered your own question by providing this definition of "prayer":

"verb: call upon in supplication; entreat"

Supplication and entreating is not necessarily worship. People supplicate and entreat each other all the time on Earth. Many Christians also do that with Mary and other saints in Heaven. Again, it is called the Communion of Saints.

Prayer is spiritual communication. To communicate (supplicate; entreat) with a saint in Heaven is not to worship the saint, any more than you worship a holy person on Earth. You may admire and revere the holy person, but you do not worship him or her. Same thing with prayer to the saints in Heaven. They're just in a different place and require another form of communication, spiritual communication, prayer.

BrAiKi

25-09-06, 07:39 PM

I know I did, what I meant in my first post is that in arabic praying to someone is worshipping him/her, and again, I mentioned that, but in english it seems that it has another meaning, If anyone can show us the words meaning in the bible's original language (latin I guess) it would be better

Haroundb

25-09-06, 11:38 PM

This is really very interesting Jeff, keep it up!

Max Payne

26-09-06, 12:38 AM

lol whats the difference between praying to Mary and worshipping Mary ? I don't think there's any difference, in our language (atleast) if you pray to someone you worship him/her, so praying to anyone except God is forbidden in Islam

I am sorry for spoiling this great topic. Braiki, I guess what Jeff meant is what Shia and Suffi muslims do when they supplicate. They ask the immams and scholars to close with and ease their supplication. If that is the right term to use.

Keep the good work Jeff, although I don't believe in most of what you said. At least it points out the reasons of why people believe in such claims. Knowing the resons are the first steps in the road of finding peace between religions.

Jeff

26-09-06, 12:46 AM

I am sorry for spoiling this great topic. Braiki, I guess what Jeff meant is what Shia and Suffi muslims do when they supplicate. They ask the immams and scholars to close with and ease their supplication. If that is the right term to use.

Keep the good work Jeff, although I don't believe in most of what you said. At least it points out the reasons of why people believe in such claims. Knowing the resons are the first steps in the road of finding peace between religions.

Ah, but I didn't address this question at all...

Jeff

26-09-06, 12:48 AM

This is really very interesting Jeff, keep it up!

Thanks for the encouragement, Haroundb. I'm trying to be as short as possible, but I'm just not that talented. So I appreciate your patience.

Jeff

26-09-06, 05:37 PM

Okay, last time we looked at the Incarnation, God becoming Man. Now we can look at the Atonement. Why after God became Man would He have to die to atone for sins? How does that help anything?

Well, let's review just a little. Humans--not just individuals, but all mankind--are lost in sin. They live in a condition of sin. God wants to change that, to rescue us by putting something powerful and pure into the human race which will have a sort of ripple effect. By sharing in our human condition, by becoming one of us, He can begin to effect that magical-seeming, miraculous change. Isn't that good enough?

Maybe it is! Maybe if we had simply accepted Christ, instead of crucifying Him, that would have been enough! The famous Catholic writer Romano Guardini certainly thought so. But that isn't what happened--as we Christians understand the story. And what would have been the chances that we would have accepted Him anyway?

Long ago, the pagan Greek philosopher Plato asked, "What would happen if a TRULY just man were to appear in the world? How would people react?" Plato's answer was that if someone who was truly good appeared in the world, we sinners would kill him. We wouldn't be able to stand having him around; he would be a standing reproach to us. His goodness contrasted with our evil natures would produce hatred and jealousy and anger and we would put an end to him. Evil isn't content to just have goodness as a friendly companion, it wants to do away with it, to blot it out.

All sin is really a rebellion against God. It's a denial of God and a rejection of Who He is. The first sin--the sin of Satan--we understand as an attempt to overthrow God and take His place. We replace God with ourselves. And what would we do, do you think, if we could succeed in the impossible task of really pulling God off His throne and taking His place? Would we set Him up in a little cottage in the countryside for a happy retirement? No, we wouldn't.

The secret of sin is the desire to BE God ourselves. When we sin, we don't think about Him, do we? We blot him out of our minds and pretend He isn't there. We "destroy" Him inside ourselves. And if we could, we would destroy Him completely outside, too. If we could get our hands on Him, He wouldn't do well at all. We would kill Him if we could. And THEN we would be free to do what we want!

Kill God?!?! A CRAZY idea, right? Yes, of course, it's crazy. But so is sin. How could we ever think of doing anything against God? It's purposeless, we can't win in the end, can we? But we do it anyway. Sin is crazy. And it makes you crazy, too.

Sin is crazy and it carries its own punishment with it. The punishment is in the effects. It makes you crazy, it makes you evil, it makes you corrupt, it drains the natural spiritual power from you. And in the end, it kills you. Death comes into the world for us humans through sin. Death is the natural consequence of sin and thus the punishment for it. All of this poison, all of this death building up in mankind over history, all directed toward God, wanting to destroy Him. How to cure it?

Give it what it wants!

Christ--God made Man--turns Himself over to us. Since we won't accept Him and we want to kill Him, He lets us have our way. And in doing so, He defeats us! Or rather, He defeats the poison in us and delivers us from it.

All of the poison, all of the sin, all of the hate in the whole history of the world--as we Christians see it--is focussed on that Man on the Cross. Like electricity in a wire, it runs there and all its effects are felt there. Christ dying in agony is not feeling the effects of His own sin: He has none. He is feeling the effects of the sins of the whole human race throughout history--unbearable to think about. What is killing Him is not His sin. It is OUR sin: MY sin!

If you saw or read about the movie, The Passion of the Christ, by Mel Gibson, you might have noticed or heard that Mel makes one appearance in the film. When Christ is about to be nailed to the Cross, we see the Hand of Jesus being stretched out and the palm being opened. We see a nail placed against the open palm and held there. And we see a hand holding a hammer and hammering the nail into that palm. In the movie, the hand hammering the nail into Christ's palm is the hand of Mel Gibson.

Because Mel Gibson knows as any good Christian knows that he killed Christ. It is his sins that hammered that nail into that Hand.

This terrible, unimaginable disaster is the way to drain all the poison out. Like a sponge, that act sucks up all the sin from the world and achieves redemption. So God dies, not in His Own Divine Nature, of course, but in His human nature. And this death is the greatest act of Love and the greatest act of Heroism imaginable. And this gift, this shameful, appalling, horrifying gift, He commands us to accept. We are not worthy of it--we are completely UNworthy of it--but it is what we need and He commands us to receive it. To accept it personally, because even if Jeff were the only person who had ever lived, He would have done what He did for me and me alone.

So the most shameful act, the worst disaster in human history, is also the Victory of God and the Deliverance of Mankind from Bondage. God does not win His Battle with a Sword, but with a Cross. Not with Strength and Power, but through Weakness. Not through Fighting, but through Suffering. The day of Christ's death we call "Good Friday."

But the story isn't done yet, oh, no! Death isn't defeated yet. Good Friday isn't the end. The end is Easter, when the fruit of that death ripens. Death cannot hold this Man, it cannot defeat Him even though He suffers it. He dies, but that death begins the process of reversal, of turning around the effects of sin and winding the thread on the spool in the other direction. The symbol of Christianity is the Cross of Atonement. But the Day of Christianity, the great day is Easter, when Christ returns to take up a His Life transformed and begin the New Life of the Future that all of History is working toward. He has passed through the Red Sea of Death like the new Moses, the waters have parted for Him, as they did for Moses, and He has come through to the other side, leading His People.

Okay! On to the next question tomorrow, inshallah.

Jeff

27-09-06, 03:41 PM

Okay, I think I answered question number 2. I took a long time, because unless you understand how Christians understand "sin" and what kind of "forgiveness" Christ brings, it's hard to understand the answers.

Now, I'll try question 3. I think my answers can be a bit shorter.

You labelled it "2" again instead of "3" but I'm calling it "3". Here it is:

Q2: Why there were no miracles in his death the same way on his birth and during his life? What is the point? Isn't it more demanding to have one at his death which will be more logically confirming the lengthy marriage, birth and death theme?

Well, the Bible describes one great miracle at his death. There was an earthquake and not just any earthquake.

You know that the Jews had only one great Temple for sacrifices which stood approximately where the Haram al-Sharif is now in al-Quds. Well, the Temple had something called the "Holy of Holies" which had a veil in front of it. The High Priest would only go in there once a year and no one else.

When Christ died and the earthquake occurred, the veil of the Temple was split from the top to the bottom. So says the Bible.

The Jews tell a fascinating story...it's fascinating because you know they don't accept Jesus at all, even as a Prophet.

Every year, the Jews have a Day of Atonement, a day on which the sacrifices used to be made to God in the Temple for the people's sins. Every year, they used to bring a thread which was colored crimson like blood. And every year, the Jews say, the thread would change to a white color to show that God had accepted the sacrifices.

The Jews tell us--it's important to remember this is THEIR story, not ours--that about forty years before the Temple was destroyed by the Romans, the crimson thread stopped changing to white. It stayed crimson, meaning God was not accepting their sacrifices any more. What happened forty years before the destruction of the Temple? The death of Christ.

There's more I could say, but I think it's better to try to keep this one a bit short. The only other thing I would want to say is just to remind you that we don't speak of "marriage" between the Virgin Mary and God. We do however call her "Mother of God". This means that she gave birth to God made Man, not that she was the Mother of God in His own Divine Nature. It's a translation of a Greek word, "Theotokos", which really means "God-Bearer", since she "bore" God, she carried Him in her womb before birth.

Tomorrow, on to Question 4.

Jeff

28-09-06, 07:39 PM

Q4: If God is Christ why he came with few miracles not all of them? I mean why didn't he fly or turn into other shapes or run faster than lighting? Why he was human all the way from birth to death? What is the point of being a human God?

Well, I really love this question! It's the kind of question that you could get a roomful of Christians spending a whole day talking about...

The first thing I should say is that at least in one way, there is already an anwer to the question. The last part, "What is the point of being a human God?", is answered in the part about the Incarnation answer. The point of God becoming Man is to save us from sin, to share our condition so He can deliver us from it, not to do miracles.

But the question still stands, I think. Why didn't Christ do all the miracles that are conceivable?

I think in a way, though, this is the same questions all Believers, Christians and Muslims alike, face from unBelievers: Why doesn't God do all the miracles hat are possible? Why not, whenever people are disbelieving or acting badly, doesn't He do a miracle? Why doesn't He, in fact, show everybody clearly that He exists? If someone says, "There is no God!" or curses His Name, why doesn't God just hit them with a thunderbolt?

Who knows the perfect answer to this? I don't. But I think somehow, God is telling us that He won't give us the cheap solution. He is saying that we already KNOW the Truth, or we have it available to us, and we should start seeking it. If we truly seek Him, He will become clear to us.

Interestingly, the Bible is full of this same question to Jesus. When He is on the Cross, there are two other people--thieves--being crucified with Him. One of them says, "If you are the Son of God, why don't you save yourself and us?" The other thief says, "Be quiet! This is a good man. We deserve to die like this; he doesn't." Then he turns to Jesus and says, "Lord, remember me when you come into Your Kingdom!" And Christ tells him--the Good Thief, we call him--that they will be together in Paradise that very day.

When Christ is arrested, He is brought before Herod, the Jewish prince, and Herod tells Him, if He puts on a miracle show for him, he will have Jesus released. Jesus won't even SPEAK to him. He is silent, won't say a word, and Herod gets mad and sends him away.

When the Devil comes to tempt Jesus while He is fasting in the desert, his last temptation is to bring Christ up to the top of the Temple, the highest building in Jerusalem. He shows Him all the Kingdoms of the World and says he will give all to Him if He will throw Himself down. The devil explains that after all, Scripture says God can't let any harm come to Him. Jesus says, "Begone, Satan! Scripture also says, You must not put God to the test!"

Maybe this is part of it, too. God does His miracles when He is ready. He knows how many we need and when we need them, even if we don't understand why. He isn't there for us to put Him to the test by demanding miracles.

There is a wonderful story in the Bible about the cure of the man who is paralyzed. Jesus is in a house preaching and the house is stuffed with people listening! His friends want to get the man to Jesus so he can be cured. But...no way to get in!

So they break a hole in the roof! And they lower the paralyzed man on his little carrying-bed down to Jesus! And Jesus just says to him, "My son, your sins are forgiven you!" No cure! The crowd is mumbling and complaining and asking who He thinks He is to forgive sins! Only God can forgive sins!

So, Jesus says, "Which is harder to cure a man or to forgive his sins? But to show you that the Son of Man has the power even to forgive sins, Rise up and take up your bed and walk!" And he does.

(It's good to notice this for later questions too. When people get angry and claim Jesus is acting like God, He always refuses to say, "I am God!" But He also refuses to deny it and say, "How can you think I am God? This is the explanation..." As if He wants us to recognize Him from our own questions and ideas and discover who He is, not to be forced.)

What God wants from us, I think, is not resistance and asking proof, but Faith. So often, when Christ heals a sick person, He says, "Your Faith has healed you." After He rose from the Dead, many of the apostles saw Him, but not Thomas. Thomas refuses to believe and says, "I will never believe it unless I can put my hand into the nail marks on His hands and into the hole in His side (where a spear pierced Him)." So, when the doors are locked, Christ appears among them and approaches poor Thomas. (Imagine how Thomas must have felt! :p ) "Come here, Thomas," He says. And He takes Thomas' hand, "Here, put your hand into the nail prints. Put your hand into my side. You have seen now and you can believe. Blessed are those who have not seen and believe anyway." And Thomas says, "My Lord and my God."

Remember, too, that part of the reason for "being a human God" and sharing our condition is to be a model for us. God comes and suffers the same things we have to suffer. He walks the road that we have to walk. Even the road of death. If He were escaping every situation and doing every proof with miracles, it would make Him seem less human, we would be less able to follow His path, I think. But He suffers hunger and homelessness and unhappiness and even death. If God can do that, if He is WILLING to do that for our sake, how can we refuse to try to follow Him?

Lots more to say. As always! And probably I said too much already. Same as always! :p But I'll try the next question tomorrow...

Listen2theOcean

29-09-06, 08:21 PM

Q1: How come God is one and three in the same time?

I am not Christian, but this is what I read about this question :

When they say Jesus is the Son of God, they don't mean as the type of sons we have here in this world. It is just a way to show grace to Jesus , it is like Saying Ejeptions are sons of the Furat river ( Awlad Naher al Furate ) you don't mean they are truly the river sons do u ?..... In addition, they say , Jesus is the only Prohibit in the Quran was called Soul of God ( Ro7 Allah ) , and he is the only one who didn't do a mistake that God motioned in the book like other prohibit did.

Why God would die to pay for human sins? ( I guess you are talking about jesus here so the upper text explains it ) , that he is humen, but god chose him to be called Ru7 Allah ( God Soul ) in the Quran.

I guess you need to ask Charistian relgiouse people like Naneis, the head of the church ( they know the most ) , like when we need to know more accurate about Islam we ask Emam if you want to know the right answer. Cuz ether muslims or Christians people are not well aware of their religion, they do not understand it fully. You may be mislead even by me :P.

BrAiKi

29-09-06, 11:07 PM

Prophet John the baptist had no mistakes mentioned in the Holy Quran nor the Holy Bible, n there are many prophets in the Quran (not really sure if its on the bible as well) who had no mistakes mentioned.

Jeff

29-09-06, 11:32 PM

I'm so glad somebody is still reading the thread. And I love it when others participate. I know my answers are long and a bit boring, but I'm doing my best. Thanks for the patience.

Anyway, I promised to try to answer all the questions, so here goes:

Q5: If we agree that God wanted to give humans wisdom and forgive their sins, why the tragic end then? Why wouldn't it be just God come to earth teach human all the virtues, forgive their sins and then go again the same way he came … i.e. in peace?

I think maybe these questions have been mostly answered already in my long answers before? See the answers on the Atonement and the Incarnation and Original Sin.

If God was just coming to TEACH, then there would be no reason for Him to become Man. And He didn't want just to forgive and deliver us back to sin again, but to defeat and destroy sin and death from inside.

And the end is NOT tragic, because "Death could not hold Him" as the Bible says. He rose again and that is the definitive defeat of Death. "O Death, where is your Sting? O Grave, where is your Victory?" says St. Paul in the Bible. Gone, gone forever.

If anyone doesn't think that's enough of an answer with all I've said before, let me know. But this is my chance to keep it short for once!

Okay, next question tomorrow...

Jeff

02-10-06, 06:38 PM

Q6: Why God himself wanted to do this? As far as he descended to earth in a "Human" shape, why not send his message to a human to deliver it to others, like a prophet? As far as he didn't reveal his true identify?

I think most of the answers can get shorter, because most of them are already at least partly answered by the previous ones. Especially the long ones about Original Sin, the Incarnation, and the Atonement...

So...why God did it, again, is in the answers about Him uniting Himself with us to pull us out of Sin, and being a model for us that we could recognize and follow...

The one about why He didn't reveal His true identity is a very interesting one...

It's interesting because I don't think Christians would think of it exactly that way. Christ didn't put a sign on Himself saying, "I am God," that's true. But if you read the Gospels, you get the impression that He was leading people to an understanding of this. The Gospels are full of questions from people like "What kind of Man is this that the wind and the seas obey him"? You can guess the answer to that question! Or "What manner of man is this that pretends to forgive people's sins?" Again, you can guess the answer!

Sometimes, you have to learn to understand or even to see something slowly. And Christians would say that understanding who God is is a process like understanding who your wife is...it's a process of understanding a person. The Old Testament says that no one can see the Face of God and live. But still...Moses longed to see the Face of God. And the Psalmist says, "I long to see your Face, O Lord." God hid Himself in one way, but also Revealed Himself more deeply than was ever possible before in another.

Well, here's another where I could go on and on! But I think I'll stop. One more question tomorrow. And the Braiki's questions.

BrAiKi

03-10-06, 05:55 PM

Jeff, from an islamic ponit of view... Moses (PBUH) made the river split for his people to pass, but that doesn't mean that the river obeyed Moses, it was all made by God will, the same goes Solomon (PBUH), the quran says that he controlled the sea and the wind, but again thats only by God's will.. so according to us, its by Gods will that Jesus healed the sick, and brought people back to life, its one special miracle indeed, one may ak why not all prophets could do that ? the Quran answers: each prophet had his level and his greatness; Moses spoke to God, David was able to bend iron easily, Solomon controlled the demonds, Jesus healed the illness, healed the blind and healed those who were disabled, but all of that was by the will God. Again, thats the islamic explanation for that...

Jeff

03-10-06, 07:29 PM

Thank you, Braiki! I appreciate the explanation. I think we certainly agree about Moses and God' will. In fact, Moses didn't get to go into the Promised Land because he tried to do a miracle for himself!

Jeff

03-10-06, 07:53 PM

Q7: How did Christians knew that Jesus is God? Did he tell them "I am a God"? If he did, why would he come to earth as a human then? It would have been better to come in another holly shape so that no one would have ever doubted his identify being a God?

Good points. I think, though, that Jesus didn't come primarily to be RECOGNIZED. He came to BE somebody and to DO something. The teaching was secondary.

Again, I think a lot of the questions before help in understanding the Christian answer.

More important that we should KNOW Christ than to recognize Him right away. If we know Him and THEN recognize Him, we can accept the understanding of God's nature better. Because the thing is that God is a bit different from what we might think. Sometimes, when God comes, we don't recognize His hand.

Yes, though, Christ did claim the name of God for Himself. When Moses first heard the Voice of God, he asked "Who shall I tell the people of Israel sent me?" And God said, "I AM WHO I AM. Go and tell the people of Israel that I AM has sent you."

One day, Jesus is speaking to the Jews and he's talking about "YOUR father, Abraham." They say, "What do you mean OUR father?" Jesus says, "Abraham saw my day and he rejoiced to see it.' They say, "Here are you, about thirty years old, and you say you have seen Abraham?" And Jesus says, "Amen, Amen, I tell you, before Abraham ever was: I AM."

For the Jews, this name "I AM" is absolutely sacred. "Yahweh" is how you pronounce it; in the older days they used to say it as "Jehovah" in English. You're not even supposed to say it! And for Jesus not just to say it, but to claim it for Himself is an absolutely clear claim of Divinity. That's why their reaction was to pick up stones to stone Him to death.

Okay, well, I think I answered all the questions. Braiki asked a few in one post before, so I will try to answer those a little, too, tomorrow.

Lym

04-10-06, 07:44 PM

Good Job :)

Jeff

04-10-06, 08:47 PM

Good Job :)

Thank you, LYM!

"There is no pleasure like receiving praise from the Praiseworthy."

Haroundb

06-10-06, 12:06 AM

I suggest another approach…

----------------------------------------------------------
Q1: How come God is one and three in the same time?
----------------------------------------------------------
(112:1-4)
In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
1. Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;
2. Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
3. He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;
4. And there is none like unto Him.

----------------------------------------------------------
Q2: Why God would die to pay for human sins? If he is God why God have to pay to himself a compensation for human sins? He could have simply forgive them without all the fuzz! Does he have to come to earth and marry a human and become the child then be crucified just to give forgiveness and life to humans and absorb their sins? What is the point then?
----------------------------------------------------------
(39:53)
Say: "O my Servants who have transgressed against their souls! Despair not of the Mercy of Allah. for Allah forgives all sins: for He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

----------------------------------------------------------
Q3: Why there were no miracles in his death the same way on his birth and during his life? What is the point? Isn't it more demanding to have one at his death which will be more logically confirming the lengthy marriage, birth and death theme?
----------------------------------------------------------
(4:175)
That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah.;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

----------------------------------------------------------
Q4: If God is Christ why he came with few miracles not all of them? I mean why didn't he fly or turn into other shapes or run faster than lighting? Why he was human all the way from birth to death? What is the point of being a human God?
----------------------------------------------------------
(3:49)
"And (appoint him) an apostle to the Children of Israel, (with this message): "'I have come to you, with a Sign from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by Allah.s leave: And I heal those born blind, and the lepers, and I quicken the dead, by Allah.s leave; and I declare to you what ye eat, and what ye store in your houses. Surely therein is a Sign for you if ye did believe;

----------------------------------------------------------
Q5: If we agree that God wanted to give humans wisdom and forgive their sins, why the tragic end then? Why wouldn't it be just God come to earth teach human all the virtues, forgive their sins and then go again the same way he came … i.e. in peace?
----------------------------------------------------------
(2:210)
Will they wait until Allah comes to them in canopies of clouds, with angels (in His train) and the question is (thus) settled? but to Allah do all questions go back (for decision).

----------------------------------------------------------
Q6: Why God himself wanted to do this? As far as he descended to earth in a "Human" shape, why not send his message to a human to deliver it to others, like a prophet? As far as he didn't reveal his true identify?
----------------------------------------------------------
(17:95)
Say, "If there were settled, on earth, angels walking about in peace and quiet, We should certainly have sent them down from the heavens an angel for an apostle."

----------------------------------------------------------
Q7: How did Christians knew that Jesus is God? Did he tell them "I am a God"? If he did, why would he come to earth as a human then? It would have been better to come in another holly shape so that no one would have ever doubted his identify being a God?
----------------------------------------------------------
(5:116-119)
And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah.?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.

117. "Never said I to them aught except what Thou didst command me to say, to wit, 'worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord'; and I was a witness over them whilst I dwelt amongst them; when Thou didst take me up Thou wast the Watcher over them, and Thou art a witness to all things.

118. "If Thou dost punish them, they are Thy servant: If Thou dost forgive them, Thou art the Exalted in power, the Wise."

119. Allah will say: "This is a day on which the truthful will profit from their truth: theirs are gardens, with rivers flowing beneath,-

---------------------------------------------------------

Straight answers to questions which anyone would ask. Others lost in the dark mazes of confusion. Jeff...Try to read your answers now, after you read the answers above, then just tell me what you feel, not what you think.

This (http://www.englishsabla.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=5294&stc=1&d=1160088632) is the answer you provided, which you have spent long posts to just clear it to yourself before you clear it to me and the others. Your effort was great. Your brain was greater but what I am sure of is that you are not sure of what you said...

Correct me if I am wrong, "you can't write the same answers typicaly twice". Write it again without looking at your answers and prove me wrong"! I know you put what you felt from inside explaining what you have been taught and what you came up with your mind still don't have a single true answer form the bible. All the answers I gave are literarily from the Quran without any single line from my mouth or brain.

I guess you understand what I mean...! The bible you are holding and everyone on earth holding now and since ages, is not what God sent. It is a piece from every brain of those who took their benefit changing the original script to adjust their selfish needs. Or to get support to their ideas during the passage of time.

Where is the truth if there is no true script supports it? From where you got your sources? Quran is the miracle...Do you understand me?, because prophet Mohammed (Peace Be Upon Him) was the final prophet...Who's message fixed the very basic failure in previous messages...Which is "authentication".

Do you understand me?

Haroundb

06-10-06, 12:17 AM

There is little point in discussing this. It won't change fundamental beliefs.
I believe Jesus was the Son of God - you don't.
You believe Mohammed is a sacred prophet. I don't,I think he was a politician

As these are our starting points, I fail to see what the point of discussing the Trinity is.

Live and let live - at leat we believe in the same God, though my view may be different than yours on His sensitivity to insults
Listen my brother, it is not that simple, what you said seems from the outside very tolerable but from the inside it is deep failure to seek truth. There are many who think of the after life and which path is the correct one to take. Religion is the path. If you don't care to authenticate your map, then sure you won't mind if you reached at the end at simply "nowhere"!

You are nowhere Sheik...I doubt your map alot ..., you understand me? You may not care, ... Upto you... True that who is lost will seek guidance, never guidance can be forced to someone who "think" he is on the right way!

wudjab

06-10-06, 01:16 AM

Poor Jeff... all that effort to naught.

Haroundb

06-10-06, 01:27 AM

Poor Jeff... all that effort to naught.
This is a post, to stress Jeff to think of efforts and forgot about truth! To shift his attention from the subject and focus on trivials. To deceive readers in an indirect way to not use their minds, to stick to their faults and close their ears and mind.

Jeff efforts where not to approve his rightness, it was to approve his point of view. That is exactly why people like Jeff get to the right path, opposite to those who get their best efforts to depress and decieve whoever tries to use his mind...wudjab.

Jeff

06-10-06, 02:01 AM

I suggest another approach…

***

Straight answers to questions which anyone would ask. Others lost in the dark mazes of confusion. Jeff...Try to read your answers now, after you read the answers above, then just tell me what you feel, not what you think.

This (http://www.englishsabla.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=5294&stc=1&d=1160088632) is the answer you provided, which you have spent long posts to just clear it to yourself before you clear it to me and the others. Your effort was great. Your brain was greater but what I am sure of is that you are not sure of what you said...

Correct me if I am wrong, "you can't write the same answers typicaly twice". Write it again without looking at your answers and prove me wrong"! I am not saying what you wrote is not correct. I know you put what you felt from inside, but what I am saying is that you don't have a single true answer form the bible, that is why you got from your search with you wits for the "TRUTH"!

I guess you understand what I mean...!

It's funny but as you can see, some of your post was cut off on the thread! But when I put my answer...it comes up! Isn't that weird? I'm not sure if I understand the stuff at the end very well. Maybe just a little.

I have had many Muslim friends over the years and so I am familiar with your approach. My general feeling is that it is in many ways a good one to use. A Muslim is convinced about his religion and feels a power in it. And he wants to share that with others. So my reaction is gratitude to you...you sincerely believe in this religion and it has brought many good things to your life. And so you are eager to have me share it and save me from punishment in the life to come.

When you read the Quran and when many Muslims read it, they feel a sort of elemental power. It feels to them like Truth and they feel that everyone should feel the same way. I understand and respect that.

But that is not what many others get when they read it. So, I have to disappoint you: I don't feel the power that you do. A certain power, a certain truth, but not the pure, overwhelming truth that I feel when I read the Bible or go to Mass.

I am not trying to testify against Islam, as I said. But as I interpreted your question in the beginning, it was, "Can Christians really believe these things? Surely everybody can see they are crazy!" No, indeed, we do not see that they are crazy. They are Truth itself and this we feel with our hearts, just as strongly as you feel what you have faith in. Many people have died for those things and I hope and pray that if it ever came to the test, I would die for them, too.

Now, perhaps when you look at me, you think, "He is being stubborn, he is shutting out the Truth. If he perishes in fire, it will be his own fault." I accept this as your honest feeling and so I respect it and I am even grateful for it! It is a loving gift from a loving Muslim heart and it pains me to have to reject it. But I do have to reject it.

The path to understanding each other is a difficult one, because we believe in Truths that conflict. And we are committed to those truths, we can't betray them.

Still, if we listen with open hearts, we can learn something about each other. Sometimes even mistakes can have truth buried in them, even if the truth is not a perfect truth. When I look at Muslim people, I see much beauty and truth. But when I look at the religion itself, I do not see perfect beauty and truth. Much beauty and truth, but not perfect beauty and truth.

I am trying to answer you heart to heart, because you ask me, not because I disrespect you. I see you as a good and noble and honest man. But these are not matters of the mind only for me or for Christians. They are deeply matters of the heart. I believe from the bottom of my heart and with my whole soul that Jesus Christ is the Eternal Son of God, Who became Man and died for my sins. I believe that there is only One God, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. My heart and my soul are not troubled by this, rather the opposite. My heart and soul sing with joy and conviction and these truths have changed and molded my life. I weep every Easter when I celebrate His resurrection and His triumph over Death.

I imagine that you cannot accept this, my conviction. That's okay! Those who expect that we Christians will be convinced, these arguments are always a disappointment. But there are others who may simply be curious about how we can believe such strange sounding things. For them, the thread may help in understanding. Some Muslims see us as lost in darkness. Others may see us as trying our best. And it's the same in reverse: some Christians see all Muslims as lost in darkness. Others think they are trying to do their best.

I am in the latter category. I like to listen openly more than I like to argue. So I can read the Quran without fear (and I do, I'm reading it for Ramadan), I can rejoice with Muslim friends when they make omrah, I can share in the happiness and struggles of Ramadan and the relief and celebration at Eid. I can love them and respect them and pray for them. I can hope and trust that God will deliver them in the end through the mercy of Christ, Who loves them and died for them.

But I am a Christian. I will never be anything else. I will live and die confessing my Lord, Jesus Christ, the Son of God, crucified and risen in Glory. This is my faith. This is the Faith of my Church. I am proud to profess it with my entire self.

Shall we shake hands on that understanding? It was a wonderful thread and a great opportunity for us to share with each other. I think very well of you! If you can think well of me, I am grateful. If you cannot, I still think well of you! :)

Jeff

06-10-06, 02:06 AM

Poor Jeff... all that effort to naught.

Wudjab, I couldn't disagree with you more. I am delighted with all of it.

Jeff

06-10-06, 02:08 AM

Braiki:

Here's what I'm thinking. If you want to discuss these matters more, they are getting very detailed. I still have plenty to say and I imagine you do too! But maybe it would be better if we started another thread. Or we could just let it drop on the understanding that we understand each other pretty well.

I am happy to do whichever you prefer.

Haroundb

06-10-06, 02:19 AM

Thanks alot Jeff for the wondeful feelings, but tell me...

Are you talking to me? Or you are talking to Sheik and Wudgab?

Haroundb

06-10-06, 02:28 AM

But I am a Christian. I will never be anything else. I will live and die confessing my Lord, Jesus Christ, the Son of God, crucified and risen in Glory. This is my faith. This is the Faith of my Church. I am proud to profess it with my entire self.

Shall we shake hands on that understanding? It was a wonderful thread and a great opportunity for us to share with each other. I think very well of you! If you can think well of me, I am grateful. If you cannot, I still think well of you! :)
Great that you gave me these words. I know you are Christian and I know you are proud of it, and sure you will live as a Christian but die like wise, ... hmm no I don't think and don't be so sure. Why? Simply because you don't own the future, future is owned by God.

What I am reading from you is not an assurance it is a denial. And sure you will get lots of green reps from this stand. But I doubt you have read what I have write!

Anyway so for to confirm that this is not only for you. Many other Christians whom I meet did just find it difficult to believe the same you did. If you are that much honest to yourself, you can't deny it!

I know at least 2 of them who literarily converted to Islam and said that the main reason they did was the Trinity. The highly felt uncomfortable with the idea.

No one in Islam did ever felt the doubt about the singularity of God Allah...Why? Even those who don't agree on many things in Islamic rules and logics did ever doubt this why? This is a question I like you to think for an answer for it. :)

And about your read in Quran in Ramadan as you said ... tell me why you do these readings? What do you want to know if you already sure 100% that you will live and die Christian?

And bout the shaking hands, don't you think this is so early? I have just started? :) Actually that was my first reply to your many answers on the questions! Was that you didn't expect a doubt? or didn't want a doubt? I know you are very tolerable ... Jeff!

And about thiking well of you, why is that? I do think well of you with no doubt, I still don't think well about those are around you. You know, Forgive me, but Something about this post is odd!

BrAiKi

06-10-06, 02:29 AM

old sheik, the two sides, me and jeff, believe that we are benefitting each other, if its pointless to you, then thats your problem!

and wudjab, no, his effort is appreciated, as I said before, Jeff keeps on enlighting me on things in christianity that I was never aware of, which makes me study it more n more, now I even got a copy of the holy book both in arabic and english in my cell phone! to read it and to study it!

Jeff, we may continue on the same thread as long as our posts fall under the same category, and I am waiting for you reply :)

BrAiKi

06-10-06, 03:03 AM

another question, to all of christian members:

according to the church, what makes a person gain the eternal life? in other words, what makes a person go to heaven? according to christianity ?

Sheik, as you can see, I have never quoted the quran in any of my posts, yet I have explained things in islamic view, even tho not all muslims agree with me in what I said
This is not a comparison thread, to me atleast, and I will say what Jeff always says, I am not here to say that christians are wrong and muslims are right.. :)

Haroundb

06-10-06, 03:26 AM

This is not a comparison thread, to me atleast, and I will say what Jeff always says, I am not here to say that christians are wrong and muslims are right.. :)
True that tolirance and flaccidity are virtues but sure in right and wrong it is passiveness not a virtue.

And Braiki it is not me or you who is saying that Christians are wrong and Muslims are right, it is Allah who is saying this, so make sure to pass this to them, that is your duty as a Muslim, to enlighten them about them being misguided by their ancestors, delivering the message to them and informing them of the correct path. Will they follow or not, sure it is upto them, and sure it is not fear of hell as much as seek of guidance.

Please enought flattering about "tolerance", which is as many know the "Vito" against passing truth to those who are lack it. It won't make you a better human to see someone lost and leave him to his destiny to stray in darkness, assuming "tolerance". No one is forcing anyone here to take a believe, it is just an attempt to clear the doubts and clean the brains.

Jeff

06-10-06, 06:58 AM

Great that you gave me these words. I know you are Christian and I know you are proud of it, and sure you will live as a Christian but die like wise, ... hmm no I don't think and don't be so sure. Why? Simply because you don't own the future, future is owned by God.

Well, I can't speak for Muslim teaching--you will tell me. But Christian teaching is that God helps us, blesses us, gives us grace, etc. But we have Free Will. Our decisions do not come from God. They come from us.

In any case, it is my responsibility. I have no doubts and no qualms! I have joy and certainty in my heart. We do not know the future, true--it is possible that I will be a Muslim and you will be a Christian! But not likely, hmm? My reason for telling you is sometimes when you speak with Muslim friends, they consider you a candidate for conversion and then they become frustrated with you. I am not a candidate for conversion. That's my basic point.

What I am reading from you is not an assurance it is a denial. And sure you will get lots of green reps from this stand. But I doubt you have read what I have write!

Can you explain this more thoroughly? I don't understand what you mean. I read what you wrote very carefully. I don't care about the green reps! My computer doesn't show green or red anyway, just an empty box for both! :( Inshallah, the green reps will all come to you! :)

Anyway so for to confirm that this is not only for you. Many other Christians whom I meet did just find it difficult to believe the same you did. If you are that much honest to yourself, you can't deny it!

Sure, some Christians have difficulty with it. And Muslims have difficulty with some doctrines of their faith. Maybe not you, but many others. "I struggled with my faith for years," "I will always be a skeptic," "some things I have always found difficult to believe." I have heard it many times from Muslims.

I know at least 2 of them who literarily converted to Islam and said that the main reason they did was the Trinity. The highly felt uncomfortable with the idea.

Sure, I believe you. Perhaps they never had it explained to them. Some of them convert back to Christianity, like one blogger I know. Some Muslims convert to Christianity because of their difficulties with the Quran--Daniel Ali, who writes books for example. There is an Ethiopian church here in Washington that is led by the son of an Imam.

We both--Christians and Muslims--have difficulties and mysteries to solve. Some people have problems with this or that and not with others. I have no difficulties with the Trinity. Understanding it as I do--a little!--it makes Christianity much MORE believable, not less.

No one in Islam did ever felt the doubt about the singularity of God Allah...Why? Even those who don't agree on many things in Islamic rules and logics did ever doubt this why? This is a question I like you to think for an answer for it. :)

No Christian ever doubted the singularity of God either! "I believe in One God..." that is how we start our proclamation of faith every Sunday.

The Trinity is a revealed mystery, not a logical deduction. You believe it because you believe in Christ, in Scripture, in the Church. And when you believe, you come to understand better and better.

I don't expect the truth about God to be easy to understand. If it were easy, it probably wouldn't be true.

And about your read in Quran in Ramadan as you said ... tell me why you do these readings? What do you want to know if you already sure 100% that you will live and die Christian?

As I said, the Quran is a path to God for many people, including my friends. Why shouldn't I learn to see it a little bit through their eyes? I think that enriches me and brings me closer to them. It doesn't mean I want to be a Muslim, just like reading the Bible doesn't mean Braiki wants to be Christian!

And bout the shaking hands, don't you think this is so early? I have just started? :) Actually that was my first reply to your many answers on the questions! Was that you didn't expect a doubt? or didn't want a doubt? I know you are very tolerable ... Jeff!

You are right there! You have been very patient with me, waiting for me to answer all the questions. Of course, I expected you to disagree.

You see, my experience in debating these things is often bad. Catholics debate Protestants; Christians debate Muslims; believers debate atheists. And usually no one is convinced. Often people become frustrated. People get sucked into argument--like fighting--without meaning it. I have seen Muslims and Christians both get frustrated and angry in these kind of discussions many times.

So generally, I try not to debate. I try to listen. And I try to present what I am saying in a non-confrontational way. I look for what we have in common, not what divides us.

Often debate feels like wrestling, trying to force a person's mind. It feels like a sport, not like real intellectual or spiritual exchange. I thought that your response and my response would be a satisfactory ending. But now I see that you have many more things to say to me. So, I am happy to listen and to try to reply, my friend!

And about thiking well of you, why is that? I do think well of you with no doubt, I still don't think well about those are around you. You know, Forgive me, but Something about this post is odd!

If my post is odd, I hope I have explained it now and I apologize. Those around me? Well, they are okay, I guess. They have their faults, like me. I am not better than them, though I disagree with their approach often. If I feel a Christian is unfair to a Muslim, I will stand with the Muslim. If I feel a Muslim is unfair to a Christian, I will stand with the Christian.

Many Christians like me who are very serious about their religion don't hang around in such a place as this. They hang around in Christian places or American places. It's natural I think! You are here, not in a Christian place, right?

Those that come are often interested in arguing politics or else learning about culture. There are others who have made friends and want to talk about movies or art or computers.

I'm a little weird. I'm here because I came at the invitation of a friend and I grew to love the people here! So I feel it less as a possibility to fight or convince somebody of something or force my opinions on somebody. I feel a guest in a Muslim and Arab and Omani place and I want to act like a good guest. And the thing that interests me most is: Where is Zulfa, is she okay? How is Princess' omrah to Mecca, is she happy? How is fatamooo doing in college? Oh, Toxic_Honey is doing really interesting art! LYM had a hard time when somebody sexually harassed her. Haroundb is a gentleman and he knows how to answer when someone attacks him--I am impressed! Things like that.

But I want you to give me credit for one thing! You said at the beginning, "Why don't Christians want to talk about it? Please help me understand, it seems confusing." I did a LOT of talking about it. I thought and prayed and did the deepest best job I could. I hope in any case, even if you disagree, you can understand us a bit better!

Haroundb

06-10-06, 10:37 AM

But I want you to give me credit for one thing! You said at the beginning, "Why don't Christians want to talk about it? Please help me understand, it seems confusing." I did a LOT of talking about it. I thought and prayed and did the deepest best job I could. I hope in any case, even if you disagree, you can understand us a bit better!
Actully you got all the credit for taking the step forward and the burden of explaining and answering the questions I have posted. This is not negotiable. I also understand now lots about the Christian mentality thanks to you and sure you have seen in many incidents that I am very happy to have you around in the sabla and very happy to find someone like you with that much of large personality big heart and mature brain.

Let us keep this as a basic foundation for our discussion and sure this is not subject to be changed for the sake of a post or a thread ok? :)

Haroundb

06-10-06, 11:03 AM

Jeff

06-10-06, 11:26 AM

Listen, we are coming up on the end of the week when it's difficult for me to devote so much time to this. In fact, I have trouble spending much time at the computer at all, as you might remember.

So, please don't anyone think that I am ignoring them if my contribution to the discussion is delayed.

Jeff

06-10-06, 11:40 AM

Back to the topic in hand, I think that a debate with the following positions wouldn't be possible:

1- You thinking that I am approaching you to convert to Islam and therefore keep your brain at a distance from thinking and validating the ideas I introduce to you. This won't really help this discussion and we will stay in state of tension.

But aren't we the same? I mean we are considering each other's ideas, but we are not considering them with absolute freedom because we are committed to our religions. I don't feel tension, Haroundb, I'm just pointing out that it sometimes develops in religious discussions, that's all.

2- Taking what you know about Christianity as granted will simply result in lack of communication. So if you think that you will not sacrifice such a fact then sure shaking hands will be better than shaking each other's trust.

I'm not sure what this one means. We can both consider arguments logically but for both of us we are not really doubting our religions. Aren't we the same?

3- This debate is about doubting logics, not only explanation logics. So if you think that I am here working as a receiver "only" then this actually voids the use of this thread.

I am not trying to tell you to be a receiver only. I was explaining that that is MY preferred way of talking and listening both. I try myself to be a receiver and an explainer, but not so much an arguer. But as you can see from my conversation with you and Braiki, I am doing a lot of back-and-forth with questions and answers. I'm just pointing out that it has its dangers. That's all.

Anyway, as far as I am concerned, the thread is your idea and you should determine the flow.

4- When you tell me God is three and comment "This is something that can't be explained and beyond our brain capabilities and only a property of God and no one will get to understand it therefore not-negotiable" then what you expect me to say after that?

Look, I didn't say it's impossible to understand at all. I spent a long, long post explaining it at the beginning, remember? I hope you didn't forget all that hard work! :) And I helped some people understand a bit better, I think.

All I am saying is that God is mysterious and beyond our complete understanding so the explanations are never perfect. I think this is something that both our religions teach!

So you tell me if you want me to continue or not. I am not trying to offend you; I am trying to avoid it at all costs. But you see? Already misunderstandings develop. If it's my fault, I hope you will forgive me.

Haroundb

06-10-06, 01:31 PM

…Okay, the Most Holy Trinity, three Persons in One God.

The first thing to understand is: we believe that this is something that GOD TOLD US. That's why we believe it
I think you can't prove that Jeff from the Bible…Can you?

One God, yes, you can discover that just by thinking about the World, which He created. But three persons in one God was revealed to us by Him.
So this is contradicting, God will not contradict himself with a fact that to is of no value to humans…Right? In other words, still you are taking what is true and logical and visually agreed upon (which is singularity, and in the same time contradicting is with something not authenticated not mentioned clearly in the Bible (if we agree that it is even mentioned). Wouldn't it be more logical that God give a larger amount of verses explaining the Trinity ? which is basically a the very main concept of the religion?

The second thing to understand is: the Trinity is a Mystery. Nobody can expect to fully understand it. After all, it's a Secret. It's a Secret about God's own Inside Life. God is the most Mysterious thing in the universe.
Can't be a secret, this is a statement of "You must not negotiate". Secrets can't be in things which supposed to be explained. You can't tell a someone ( 3 * Z = X ) and expect him to say believe you! At least you must tell what is Z or What is X, else don't expect him to believe you! In Islam Allah Said, I am One, and look around you, you will discover that I am one, (no contradiction).

.. Allahu Akbar, God is Great. He is so Great, that our puny, little minds can't hope to understand Him very well. If anybody tells you something about God that is simple and easy to understand, it's probably not true! Nothing about God is easy to understand; He is far above us.
That is true in physics of body and shape, but not in concept and belief. If nothing about God to be understand no one on earth will believe in Him.

Third, God is Personal. This we can understand with our human minds. We can't understand it WELL, but we can understand it. What that means is that God isn't just a Thing. He isn't just an Object. He isn't just a blind Force or Energy. He has Will, because He Wants us to do this and not to do that. He has a Mind, or rather He IS a Mind, because He Sees and Understands. God isn't SomeTHING. He is SomeBODY. God is a HE, not an IT. God is a PERSON, or at least He is PERSONAL, to use the technical term.

Great you said it yourself, God is personal a "He" not a "They"!

God told us, we Christians believe, that if we look at Him from Outside, He is One. There is No Other God than Him. He is the Only God and there is no other beside Him.

But we believe that God told us that that is not how He experiences Himself. He experiences Himself as Three Persons. This is the way God is and always has been and always will be.

Isn't this so much contradicting? Can you elaborate what is the three persons? I can believe of transformation from A to B and then To C, but that A, B, C are all one! Still I don't know that there anything in the Bible that supports this logic?

If Haroundb thinks of Himself, he has an image or a concept of himself in his mind. If you think about an orange in your mind, your thought, your image of the orange is not a real orange. It has an existence only in your mind. If you think about YOURSELF in your mind, it's not real, it has an existence in your own mind only. And it's not the same as the real you, is it? It's your Idea of yourself, your Self-Image.

Remember you said earlier that he is a person, a "Fact" not something imaginary! He has a will…Right? This really contradicting and very much confused. What you are saying now that being 3 is not a physical state, but a mental state!

God also "thinks" of Himself. How could He NOT think of Himself? He is the most interesting and the most wonderful thing in the Universe. And before He created angels and men and the world, there was nothing else to think about!
So you are saying that God made himself busy when there were nothing else to care or think about by thinking that he is 3? Can't be accepted with a sound mind…Right?

But God is not material. He is Pure Spirit. But that Pure Spirit isn't less real than Matter, which He created, it is MORE REAL. When God has an Idea of Himself, when He thinks of Himself, it doesn't just have a shadowy, vague, mental reality like our ideas do. It's real, just as real as God Himself
Spirit is an "it" and you said God is a "He" this really confusing? And how come spirit is the same as matter and material is same like non-material? That is totally not acceptable, or else why would it be given different entities if they are the same thing?

. In fact, it IS God Himself. Not ANOTHER God, but distinct. God experiences Himself as the One Who Knows. But also as the One Who Is Known.
Can this be true logic in anyway?! This is an attempt to explain not an explanation in itself.

God, the One Who Knows, not only SEES God, the One Who is Known, but He Loves Him, too. Naturally: who wouldn't? What or who is more lovable than God? And God, the One Who Is Known, sees and loves God, the Knower also. And this Love that they exchange isn't just a shadowy, vague feeling like it would be for human beings, it is also Real, just as Real as God Himself. In fact, it, too, IS God Himself. The Life of God, the Breath of God, you could say. The Spirit of God. The HOLY Spirit
This can't be, these are two different persons here, you are just hiding them under the mask of "God"! Who is who? And Who loves whom? The known or the Knower? And where is the third God? The Breath of God, The Spirit of God? You said earlier that God Himself is a spirit? (Check the previous points)! So if God is a Spirit then whey need another spirit to resemble it? Contradicting…!

And since God is Someone, not Something, all these ways of being that God has are Persons, because God is not a blind force, remember, like gravity, He is Somebody, He is personal in His very nature.

Again you are contradicting yourself, if God is Someone, and there are 3 of them, do they have different wills or do they share the same will? Do they fight? Is there any mention about some discussion between them in the Bible?

Now we can't understand this very well. In fact, we can hardly understand it at all.
Exactly!

… But I think we can understand it well enough to be able to say that it makes a kind of sense
Again?!

We can grasp it enough to believe it. As we can grasp the existence of God enough to believe it. We only see a tiny bit of what we are talking about, but that's natural, because God is beyond anything we can understand.
This is an implication not to discuss this matter because it is not logical at all! You are actually telling us that it is just like that and we have to accept!

If God wants to be One and also Three, who can stop Him?
Sure no one can stop him, I agree with you, but does he really wants to be so?

Haroundb

06-10-06, 01:36 PM

So you tell me if you want me to continue or not. I am not trying to offend you; I am trying to avoid it at all costs. But you see? Already misunderstandings develop. If it's my fault, I hope you will forgive me.
no costs are developing, and no misunderstandings, just a friendly discussion, that is exactly what it is about.:yes: :)

BrAiKi

06-10-06, 05:04 PM

Jeff, I only mentioned that my arabic bible is translated from the original languages because its written on its cover and I thought that it worths mentioning! :D

I have checked two arabic bibles so far, and they both have the same translation that I have provided!
I invite you to go back again to the verses to see the difference between the translation I got and the one you got, and by reading the whole verse, one can judge wether mine (which is taken from arabic bible) or yours (which is taken from English bible) is more accurate:

My translation:

Jews: you're not even 50 years old, and you have seen Arbahim!?
Jesus: The truth I tell you, Before Abrahim existed, I have existed

the Jews here wonder how Jesus have seen Abrahim while he's not even 50 years old, but Jesus tells them that even before Abrahim Existed, Jesus exists, so yeah, Abrahim was aware of Jesus

Your Translation:

Jews: you're not even 50 years old, and you have seen Arbahim!?
Jesus: The truth I tell you, Before Abrahim was, I AM

the jews wonder how Jesus have seen Abrahim while he's not even 50 years old, and he answers them that he is God
(I hope I translated it right and showed your point of view, correct me if I'm wrong tho)

now which makes more sense ?
The Logic that I'm using isn't strange to the bible, Because God says to Jeremiah the same thing!

Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.

Jeremiah 1:5

so saying that Jesus has existed before Abrahim doesn't have to literally mean that he existed in a human being form :)

Another question I got in mind is, what was the language of Jesus ? was it Aramic or hebrew ? or both !?
If it's aramic, then "I am" was said but almost everyone during that time, because it's not forbidden in Aramic nor in arabic nor in english, it's answering the Question: "are you John" and you reply "I am". Jesus, however in arabic said "ana howa" which is the same in arabic, saying that by everyone doens't make them Gods!

If it's in Hebrew then I found an answer from a Jewish website since its their language and they know it better than both of us :)

here what the website says:

Question: Is the author of the Gospel of John claiming that Jesus is part of a tri-unity god when he has Jesus say, "before Abraham came into being, I am" (John 8:58)?

Answer: John 8:56-58 states: "'Abraham your father rejoiced to see my day; and he saw it, and was glad.' The Jews therefore said to him: 'You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?' Jesus said to them: 'Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham came into being, I am.'"

Trinitarians argue that the Greek words ego eimi ("I am"), allegedly spoken by Jesus (John 8:58), indicate that Jesus is God (see also John 8:24, 28). They arrive at their contention by connecting the phrase "I am" with the words spoken by God in Exodus 3:14 and often translated: "I AM THAT I AM . . . . Thus you shall say to the children of Israel: I AM has sent me to you." However, the literal and proper translation of this verse is: I WILL BE WHAT I WILL BE. . . . Thus you shall say to the children of Israel: I WILL BE has sent me to you."

Since the author of the Gospel of John utilized the Greek Septuagint translation of the Bible in his writings, it cannot be assumed that John's Jesus is referring to the words in Exodus 3:14. Although Jesus actually spoke in Hebrew or Aramaic, not Greek, John recorded Jesus' alleged words in Greek. Ego eimi ("I am"), used by John's Jesus, is not the same as ho on ("The Being, The One Who Is"), which is used in the Septuagint's rendering of Exodus 3:14: "And God spoke to Moses, saying, I am THE BEING; and He said, Thus you shall say to the children of Israel: THE BEING has sent me to you." Even though ho on appears in the Gospel of John, it is never used as a title or name or exclusively as a reference to Jesus. In the Book of Revelation, also credited to John by Christian commentators, ho on appears five times (Revelation 1:4, 8; 4:8; 11:17; 16:5). Significantly, in each instance, it is used as a title or designation applied to God, not Jesus. Thus: "John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace, from Him who is [ho on] and who was and who is to come; and from the seven spirits who are before His throne" (Revelation 1:4). That this verse refers to God and not Jesus is seen from the following verse, which continues the greeting by now including Jesus as one of those sending greetings. Hence, John says, in verses 4 and 5, that greetings are sent by God, the seven spirits, and Jesus.

In verse 8, John writes: "'I am the Alpha and the Omega,' says the Lord God, 'who is [ho on] and who was and who is to come, the Almighty'" (Revelation 1:8). This verse also speaks of God, not Jesus. In Revelation 4:8, ho on is applied to "the Lord God, the Almighty," not Jesus, who, as the "Lamb" referred to in Revelation 5:6-7, comes to God, who is sitting on His throne. That they are two separate entities is seen from Revelation 5:13: "To the one sitting on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever." In addition, ho on is applied to the "Lord God, the Almighty," not Jesus, in Revelation 11:17 and Revelation 16:5. That ho on in Revelation 16:5 refers to God and not Jesus can be seen from verse 7, which, referring to the subject of verses 5 and 6, states: "And I heard the altar saying: 'Yes, Lord God, the Almighty, true and righteous are Your judgments.'" These are further indications that ho on and ego eimi are not used as synonymous terms by John. In John 8:56-58, John is expounding his belief that Jesus had a prehuman existence as an angelic being in heaven. John's Jesus is proclaiming here that this prehuman existence began before Abraham was born: "Before Abraham came into being, I am." The fact of the matter is that the text does not at all indicate how long Jesus supposedly lived before Abraham. In no honest way can John's statement be taken to identify Jesus as God.

reference: http://www.jewsforjudaism.com/web/faq/faq128.html

and here's the text in arabic, and I ask all of those who read Arabic to correct me if I went wrong in explaining what's written:

56 ابوكم ابراهيم تهلل بان يرى يومي فراى و فرح

57 فقال له اليهود ليس لك خمسون سنة بعد افرايت ابراهيم

58 قال لهم يسوع الحق الحق اقول لكم قبل ان يكون ابراهيم انا كائن

John 8:56-58

from: http://st-takla.org/pub_newtest/43_john.html

I don't think the arabic bible and the english bible contradict with each other, and it's well known that arabic language is more accurate than english..

and you can take your time I'm sure everybody understands how busy you are, just don't get busy for too long :p
will be waiting to hear from you, thank you :)

Jeff

07-10-06, 11:36 AM

Okay, I have a little time and I will try to use it to address some of what Haroundb is saying. I will get back to you, Braiki! I am enjoying all this, but time is limited. So, I am going to try for shorter answers, since a lot of what I say is versions of what I said before:

All right Haroundb, here are some replies:

1. You seem to say that the Almighty God Who is infinitely far above us is easy to understand. Why? I don't agree! If even the nature of one limited human soul is hard to understand, God should be impossible to fully understand for a little human brain. So, in that sense, of course God is beyond logic. He can be understood a little, but only a little. He is very Great and we are so small!

2. I don't see why something can't be One in one way and Three in another way. Where is the contradiction? God is One in nature and Three in personality. Why can't God have three personalities, united completely in nature? What's the contradiction? Humans aren't that way. But why can't God be?

3. Sometimes things seem to be contradictory, but they aren't in reality. Light seems to be a wave and it seems to be a particle; it seems like a contradiction, but it isn't. Sometimes in life we are faced with things that seem contradictory and eventually we discover how they aren't.

4. God is He and also They. God is He, the Father, also, He, the Son, and He, the Holy Spirit. We can speak to one of the Persons or to all. Why not? And why is a Spirit only "It"? We can call the Spirit "It" sometimes, but usually "He." The Holy Spirit is a Power or Force ("It"), but also a Personality ("He"). Why not? We're not talking about men's bodies or women's bodies with sexual organs. We are just finding the best way to talk about the Great God Who is beyond such things.

The important thing is that I can talk to the Holy Spirit, I can say, "You." "Oh, Holy Spirit, Comforter and Sustainer, bless me and bless my friend Haroundb and enlighten our minds." That is my duah. The Holy Spirit is not an insensible object. He is my Friend.

5. God is not material by nature. He is a spirit. Spirit is not limited by material limitations. Matter is limited by time and space. Spirit is not. Humans are part matter and part spirit. Human souls and angels are limited spirits. God is the Infinite Spirit.

6. I don't understand this you wrote:

"This can't be, these are two different persons here, you are just hiding them under the mask of "God"! Who is who? And Who loves whom? The known or the Knower? And where is the third God? The Breath of God, The Spirit of God? You said earlier that God Himself is a spirit?"

One of us is not understanding the other. I think maybe you don't understand what I said. But maybe I don't understand you...do you want to try again?

Remember that at least one Muslim reacted to my discussion of the Trinity by saying he found my answer very helpful! Apparently, not everyone found it completely illogical! :-)

Maybe it's easier if we go step by step. Let's try Step One: God has a Mind, He IS a Supreme Mind. But our minds are limited. Our thoughts only have mental reality. God's thoughts have REAL reality. Contradictory? I don't see why...

7. I already gave Scripture verses that are the basis of Trinitarian belief. It's true that the doctrine is not laid out like a treatise or instructions. But I don't think the Bible is like that. I don't think the Quran is just a list of doctrines and laws either...that's why Christians and Muslims both have big books of explanations, because our Holy Books are not always easy to understand. Holy Books are not like that: or I have never seen one.

Anyway, Braiki and I are discussing a few of those verses and ideas about God and the Trinity. What don't you like about the Bible concepts I discussed a few posts ago in my first answer to Braiki about the Trinity? I think he asked about finding the Trinity in the Bible and I answered him before. I think it's on page two.

8. Our rule of Faith is not Scripture Alone. We don't go to a Book and look for the Truth by our individual selves. We understand the book together, as one Community. The Church has always taught the truth of the Trinity. Her teaching is guided by the Holy Spirit. How the Church understands the Bible is how I understand the Bible.

So, if you say, "Can you prove it to me absolutely by the Bible alone?", my answer is, "Why should I have to? The Bible alone is not our rule of Faith. You can't understand the Bible by itself. You need the Church too."

In other words, a Catholic does not say, "Let me figure out by myself what the Bible means." He says, "What does the Church teach?"

Good discussion, Haroundb! Thanks! God bless you. Keep me in your prayers and I will keep you in mine.

Braiki, be patient! I will get back to you.

You are both such nice and interesting people. Inshallah, one day we will sit together and drink coffee and talk of many things!

BrAiKi

09-10-06, 12:19 PM

inshallah :D I am very glad that I finally found someone with such knowledge and ethics, the questions I ask are mostly asked by those who are muslims and study the bible.. So I hope you understand why I get too detailed about certain points..

I will be waiting for your posts! thank you! :)

LovingLogic

09-10-06, 06:32 PM

Jeff! You are a wonderful man! You amaze me everytime I read this thread! Got my full respect for your excellent posts! ;)

Jeff

12-10-06, 08:22 AM

Okay, Braiki, here is my answer at last!

Look, let me make it clear. I'm not saying it's IMPOSSIBLE to argue what you are arguing from the texts. It's possible to argue almost anything from texts. I'm just saying it doesn't seem to me to be such a strong explanation.

Here are the reasons I think that:

1. If Jesus meant to explain that He WASN'T claiming to be God, He didn't do a very good job, it seems to me. This was what the Jews said to Him:
"You are making yourself God." Now the last thing in the world a true Prophet wants is for people to treat Him like God, right? If someone said to Moses or Mohammed, "You are God" or "We think you are God" or "Are you God?" or "Some say you are God" or worse, "YOU are CLAIMING to be God," what do you think they would say?

I would think they would say, "No, no, you've got it completely WRONG. Let me make it clear to you: I am NOT God. That's completely wrong! Don't you DARE let anyone think such a thing. How horrible!" I might be wrong, but didn't something like this happen with Mohammed?

Jesus could have said something clear like this. But He didn't

2. If Jesus wanted to make clear that He was just a man, He also did a poor job. "Before Abraham was, I AM" or even "I have existed" doesn't give the impression of being a mere man, though you COULD interpret it that way. It especially doesn't give that impression because it's the answer to the accusation, "You have seen Abraham?" It seems to imply that Jesus SAW Abraham. Even if we existed in God's mind in some way before we were born, we didn't SEE other people or know them, or at least we don't claim that.

So, it seems a poor way to communicate that you are only a man. If the Jews were confused afterwards, they had a right to be!

3. If Jesus is trying to communicate that He is not God, but a mere man, then His message didn't seem to get across! At the end of the passage, the Jews are still trying to "capture" or lay hands on Him for stoning (apparently). Maybe they misunderstood, I guess, but again, it doesn't really seem like it's their fault if they did. And the fact that they are angry and want to kill him at the end, right after He makes this "I AM" or "I have existed" claim, seems to strenghthen the interpretation that Jesus ended by saying something to make them angry and want to stone Him like they
did at the beginning of the conversation. Some of the early part of the answer--about 'sons of God', etc, might seem to be going in a different direction. But the explanation seems to me to take a turn away from that at the end. That's why the Jews keep wanting to kill Him.

4. The implication of the "I AM" or "I have existed" passage seems to be at least that Jesus really existed in some unusual way before He was born. That He was God or that He was some supernatural creature. Notice that your own long quote from the Jewish source interprets the passage that way: Jesus is claiming to be a supernatural being. That seems a more natural explanation of the words than the claim that He was saying He was only human.

But it also seems really weird! That makes nonsense of Christian claims, but of Muslim claims, too. And it makes a picture of Jesus as some kind of gnostic lunatic.

5. The interpretation of this as a claim of Divine Being fits with other, similar passages of St. John's Gospel.

--There is John 18: 5-6, where Jesus uses the same words, "Ego eimi" and the soldiers and others coming to arrest Him, FALL TO THE GROUND. That seems to be a sort of involuntary worship: Jesus has spoken a word of Power and--for the moment--they are forced to worship Him.

--John 20: 28 has Thomas calling the Risen Jesus "My Lord and My God" and Jesus does not contradict him.

--The opening verses of John, which say that the Word was WITH God and the Word WAS GOD and came down to us. And the Word became flesh and lived with us. And everything that was created was created through Him.

--The verses at the beginning of John's first LETTER, not GOSPEL, usually called 1 John in the Bible. The same author and listen to how he talks and the excitement:

"We are writing to you about something which has always existed yet which we ourselves actually saw and heard: something which we had an opportunity to observe closely and even to hold in our hands, and yet, as we know now, was something of the very Word of life himself! For it was life which appeared before us: we saw it, we are eye-witnesses of it, and are now writing to you about it. It was the very life of all ages, the life that has always existed with the Father, which actually became visible in person to us mortal men. We repeat, we really saw and heard what we are now writing to you about. We want you to be with us in this - in this fellowship with the Father, and Jesus Christ his Son. We must write and tell you about it, because the more that fellowship extends the greater the joy it brings to us who are already in it."

There are lots of other verses in John's writings like this and of course in Paul as well. So, is it possible to interpet the way you are doing? Yes, possible. And logical for a Muslim, too, who is starting from a different system of belief. But I think it's a weak interpetation considering all these things.

6. What language did Jesus use? Probably not Hebrew for the whole speech, since that was a dead language at the time and many who were listening might not understand it well. But I suppose He might have quoted Hebrew for that one thing, "I AM"

But let's note the following: John the author of the Gospel, was also a Jew and He knew whatever Jesus said in the original since he was an apostle and very close to Jesus. He was almost certainly there since he knows all the words that were spoken.

And John also knew Greek, since he wrote his Gospel in Greek. Why Greek? Because not all Jews spoke Hebrew--only the educated few. And not all Jews spoke Aramaic--only the Jews of Palestine. Most Jews lived in other places, like Egypt, Syria, Turkey, Italy and all sorts of places around the Mediterranean. What language did they speak and write in? Greek. Greek was like the English of the ancient Mediterranean world. If Jesus wanted to talk to a Roman soldier or a Phoenician woman, what language would He have used? Greek. Most people knew Greek and those that didn't know it knew a little at least. It was the language you used to communicate to a wide audience.

Now many of the Jews in Palestine at the time came from outside...they were on pilgrimage, etc. Even educated Jews from places like Egypt didn't speak Aramaic and often knew little Hebrew unless they were religious scholars. Did they read the Bible? Yes. Did they read it in Hebrew? NO!

What language did these Jews read the Bible in? Greek. And who made that translation? The Jews of Egypt many years before Christ. It's called the Septuagint, because it was translated by seventy rabbis from Hebrew to Greek. This is the ancient Greek Old Testament that we still have today. This is the Bible most widely read by Jews at the time. Even those who knew Hebrew would also know the Septuagint, the Greek version.

Would the Jews who knew some Greek have known that passage in Exodus where God tells Moses His Name? Surely they would. And how does God begin His Name there, in one of the most solemn passages from the Bible? "ἐγώ εἰμι" or in English letters, "Ego eimi" He says. Every Jew, every Jew would know those words. The hair would stand up on his head...the very Name of God, so holy you weren't even supposed to pronounce it with your mouth in Hebrew. And what words does Jesus use in the passage we are talking about to make the solemn ending of His own speech to His accusers? "Ego eimi" He says, "ἐγώ εἰμι." And remember, "Before Abraham ever was..." and then He says the words that everyone will know and recognize. And STOPS.

If it was in Greek that Jesus spoke every Jew would have recognized what He was referring to. There would be no more mistaking those words than a Muslim would have any confusion about "In the Name of Allah, the Compassionate, the Merciful' If He spoke that passage in Hebrew, then He would have used the original words and John would have surely have known that "Ego eimi" is how God begins to declare His name in the Greek version. It would be the perfect translation if Jesus had declared the Name of God in Hebrew, because that's the Greek Bible's way of beginning to declare the Name of God. It would be a TERRIBLE translation for any other words Jesus used. The same if Jesus used Aramaic (the least likely choice.) JOHN WOULD KNOW THAT THOSE WORDS WERE THE HOLIEST WORDS IN THE GREEK BIBLE AND HE WOULD NOT HAVE USED AS THEM FOR HIS TRANSLATION INTO GREEK UNLESS THEY REFERRED TO THAT PASSAGE AND TO GOD'S NAME.

7. Furthermore, all the people in the early days of the Church were Greek speakers. Many were converts from Judaism. All the ancient people I know of who commented on that passage interpeted it as a claim of Divinity and a reference to the Name of God. The Jews and Christians in those days knew Greek because it was their own language. The Jewish scholars of today do not have that intimate, daily familiarity with Greek.

Okay, one further note on language. If you look up the Name of God in the Jewish Encyclopedia or other places online, you will find that there is not a single way everybody agrees on to translate it. Not "I AM" not "I have existed" not "I will be" not "I am the existing One". That's because there is no single way to translate it. Hebrew doesn't have past, present, or future tenses like English. It something called "imperfect". And the imperfect, so the scholars say, captures all of the times, "I was, I am, I will be." Perhaps you could say, "I am the One Who Always Exists, I am the Eternal One," or "I am the One Who was, Who am, Who am to come." That might capture it. In English, the closest way to capture it easily is to say "I AM" because God's existence is an eternal presence. So that is the translation usually used. The point is: there is no perfect translation. "I have been" is not so great, I think because it's history. I wonder how your Arabic Bible translates the passage from Exodus where God gives His Name?

(BTW, We Christians understand that God is saying that He is True Being Itself, Pure Existence, and everything else has only a secondary, derived existence from Him. And in the New Testament, the same John we have been talking about says, "Dearly Beloved, love one another, because God is Love." We understand this to be a reference to the Trinitarian nature of God. So Pope Paul VI (four popes ago) said that God's two great names, from the Old and New Testaments, are Being and Love.)

Too long for any human to read! looool! But your good questions deserve respectful and thorough answers. And let me make clear, I am not saying your reading is impossible. I'm just trying to explain why we Christians don't read it that way. I enjoy talking with you about the subject. And I respect so much the time and trouble you take to read the Bible. You honor us Christians to treat us so seriously. And since Muslims believe at least the Gospel and Psalms are Holy Books, too--though they believe there are errors and additions--it seems to me you honor Islam and God as well. May God bless you for it.

BrAiKi

12-10-06, 01:51 PM

hehe thats a long one. now it's my turn to take my time to answer this, I'll get back ASAP inshallah :D

Jeff

12-10-06, 06:57 PM

Hey, we're here together Braiki. Take your time, don't rush. It'll probably take me a while before I can answer your answer. And isn't there another question about salvation or something I'm supposed to look at? loool Don't give me too much homework, man! :weep: :p

BrAiKi

12-10-06, 07:01 PM

actually there is! lol i'll keep these questions n ask after we reach an end to these answers :p

sheik-al-Tort

12-10-06, 08:15 PM

Well done Jeff.

As for the last question - God demonstrated through Christ enormous humility as well as compassion for humans. He could only do that by becomming fully human. This explains his suffering and anguish on the cross.

However being God he also demonstrated that the spirit was stronger than the flesh and even death, by the resurrection of Jesus.

That is what Christians believe.

Unfortunately his lesson of compassion seems to have been lost on most of us.

BrAiKi

13-10-06, 04:02 AM

The first language that the bible was written was greek, I have checked that and made sure, BUT you got a mistake there, is "I AM" in the new testament the same as "I AM" in the old testament ? the word in Greek that's translated in the O-T is HO ON, while what Jesus said was translated as EGO EIMI, as we can see, HO ON isn't EGO EIMI, Now if the saints knew that Jesus meant "I AM" in the same way it's written in the OT, they would have used the same greek words! which is "HO ON" not "EGO EIMI"

We both know that Jesus didn't speak directly! and my arguments are about Jesus' quotes, not on what others thought of Jesus, because what I think of Jesus is different than what u think of Jesus, but what Jesus thinks of himself is the same! and Jesus always complained about his students and he was quoted many times complaining how weak their faith is.. However, I'm gonna get to the point. Jesus didn't need to calim to be God to make the Jews stone him, we all know that the jews during that time were known of the killers or the prophets, and my signature quotes Jesus complaining about Jerusalem being a killer or prophets and those who were sent to it, Prophet zacharia was stoned to death and we all know that Prophet zacharia was a only a prophet who didn't claim to be God, so that proves my point that it's not a MUST that the jews wanted to stone him because he claimed to be a God, it's because he was guiding them to the right path the same way Prophet Zachria was. and then they accuse him of making himself a God, but again he corrects it for them, he doesn't state clearly that he isn't God, but he tells them "why do u accuse me of blasphemy because I said 'I am God's Son'" ? and then in the next lines, he explains himself more saying: "do not believe me unless I do the works of my father. But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the father is in me and I in the father" he DID claim to be the Son of God, but not God himself.. He is the Son of God in the same way Adam is (thats how Adam is called in the bible as well) Because both of Adam and Jesus were created directly by God, without having parents involved for Adam, and without having a human Father for Jesus.. Many before and after Jesus were called the Son Of God, but it had a meaning of the "Servant of God".. now back to what Jesus said, he says there that he does the works of the father as in having an authority from the father: God, and he is doing what God is commanding him as it's explained by his own words in John 5:30 "I cannot do anything on my own; I judge as I hear, and my judgment is just, because I do not seek my own will but the will of the one who sent me." (btw thats another evidence that Jesus always needed God's will to perform miracles ;) ) and then, he says "that you may know and UNDERSTAND that the father is in me and I in the father" which what I explained in the same Quote of Jesus saying that "I and the father are One".

one more thing I'd like to comment on your last posts about this subject.. prophet Jesus didn't claim that he SAW prophet Abraham, thats what The jews understood (and they always did) let's read the verse again:

"56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?

58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am."

John 8:37-58

here, Jesus doesn't claim that he saw prophet Abrahim, but prophet Abrahim saw his day, and he rejoiced, we all know. that God promised prophet Abrahim as its written in the bible and the Quran "8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. " Galatians 3:8 (this verse Quotes the OT)
and as I showed in my previous post, Jesus says clearly that he's a man, yet, he doesn't state clearly (in his own words) that he is God.. The quote is: "But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham." John 8:40
so yeah, that shows that jesus did a better Job (using his quotes) to state that he's a man than telling that he's God :)

"We are writing to you about something which has always existed yet which we ourselves actually saw and heard: something which we had an opportunity to observe closely and even to hold in our hands, and yet, as we know now, was something of the very Word of life himself! For it was life which appeared before us: we saw it, we are eye-witnesses of it, and are now writing to you about it. It was the very life of all ages, the life that has always existed with the Father, which actually became visible in person to us mortal men. We repeat, we really saw and heard what we are now writing to you about. We want you to be with us in this - in this fellowship with the Father, and Jesus Christ his Son. We must write and tell you about it, because the more that fellowship extends the greater the joy it brings to us who are already in it."

now that quote is interesting! it proves what I was saying about the non-human existance of Jesus, and if you note the last line; he seperated the father and his son; Jesus christ, whereas the holy spirit (which is the third element) is not mentioned!

and Sheik, muslims do not have a problem calling Jesus God's do (and God's word and God's spirit and Christ: The Messiah) but we DO have a problem (I think christians do too) if its meant the same way how human beings are fathers and sons
The debate here is wether Jesus claimed to be God or not

BrAiKi

13-10-06, 03:46 PM

Just to make you ready for my next question Jeff, it's gona be about gaining the eternal life, not much of a homework I suppose :p

Jeff

13-10-06, 08:58 PM

Braiki:

LOL! I think I will have to make you wait over the weekend for your answer as usual! All excellent questions and points. It seems like the heart of our disagreement is beginning to show itself and become clear. After one or two more posts, I think I will leave you the last word and turn aside to something else, like Eternal Life. We can always come back to the "I AM" discussion at some later time.

Lym

13-10-06, 09:27 PM

Liberty please behave; your post has been deleted and whomever replied to his post had their post deleted as well because it was all off topic and irrelevant. Jeff and Charm, I would appreciate it, if you discuss your avatar arrangements via Private Messages. However, I've moved those posts to Jeff's thread about his avatar as it was the topic.

Thank you.

PS: Please don't reply to this message. Any concerns you can PM me.

BrAiKi

13-10-06, 10:16 PM

lol Jeff I agree, its like we're going in the same circle over and over, but I hope you find my arguments reasonable and worth thinking about! you can take your time and then we'll switch to another topic! thank you!

Jeff

16-10-06, 08:43 PM

Braiki, you are a worthy adversary! I admire your mind and your seriousness and it's a real pleasure to talk with you. But, we still disagree! Did you guess? looool!

Only What Jesus Said?

You say you are only interested in what Jesus said, not what others said about Him. I'm not sure this works very well in interpreting a text, especially this text.

Why should we accept what John reports about what Jesus said, but not about what Jesus did? Why shouldn't we accept John's witness about Jesus' words, Jesus' deeds, and Jesus' teaching? If you don't trust what John says about Jesus' teaching, why should you accept that the words he reports are actually Jesus' words? He doesn't say he was present at the "I AM" conversation. Maybe some of the words he reports of Jesus are accurate and others are not. Either John is a reliable witness of Jesus' teaching, deeds and words, or he is not.

I think the whole debate makes little sense if we just choose which things we want to believe from the Gospel and which we do not. And in fact, most Muslims I have talked with about these subjects take the position that the Gospels are corrupted and whatever conflicts with Islamic teaching is a distortion or addition. This makes more sense to me than accepting the "I AM" conversation, but isolating it from the rest.

So, when I read the opening of John's Gospel, saying that the Word WAS God, I accept this as Jesus' teaching as much as I do the words reported by John. I interpret them all together. John testifies that he was "the disciple that Jesus loved," in other words, that they were like brothers, extremely close. He knew how Jesus talked and what He meant and what Jesus' teaching was better than Braiki, because he knew Jesus and he knew Him intimately. Jesus taught the Apostles His doctrine, this we know from His words because He commissioned them to go out into the World and teach in His Name. That's what John is doing when he describes the nature of Christ.

Now, what about this "I AM" text? Should we interpret it by itself, or does it stand alone? I think it's reasonable to ask whether Jesus used words like the ones He uses here in other places. Don't you think so?

I found this a long time ago on an Islamic website:
"Muslims regard the most reliable Qur'anic commentary as being contained in the Qur'an itself. In other words, the ways in which certain ayat clarify other ayat are regarded as being the most significant form of commentary. A second form of Qur'anic commentary is how the Prophet interpreted the Qur'an. And his comments on the Qur'an (as well as everything he ever said or did) are recorded in the hadith collections."

http://godlas.myweb.uga.edu/primsourcisl.html it's in the section called "Tafsir".

Now, I can't say if this interpretation of the Muslim way of dealing with the Qur'an is text correct or not; you will know better than me. But it seems to me that using the some words of Jesus to clarify other words and using other described events to clarify His words is a similar approach to the first principle of reading all the Quran together, not in pieces --ayat clarifies ayat. Using John's presentation of Jesus' teaching is similar to that principle, too, and also similar to the second one--the hadith principle--since John is an apostle and a close friend of Jesus.

Ego Eimi and Ho On--Different?

Yes, the point about Ego Eimi vs. Ho On is a reasonable one. But I think the difference that appears on the surface quickly disappears if you take a careful look.

First, you are half right about the Bible and Greek. Remember that most of the Bible, the huge first part, is the Jewish scriptures. The original language is Hebrew (with a tiny section in Chaldean.) But, as I said, most Jews didn't live in Palestine after the Babylonian Exile. Most lived in places like Iraq and Egypt. Most couldn't speak or read Hebrew well. The ones that lived in the Mediterranean area outside Palestine spoke Greek. They translated the Bible for themselves into Greek long before Christ--that's called "The Septuagint".

The NEW Testament was written in Greek, not Hebrew. The original Bible texts here are Greek. This includes the words of Jesus that we are speaking of.

Okay, let's look at the Septuagint (the old Jewish Greek version) in which God reveals His Name. It's at Exodus 3: 14 in the Old Testament.

Here is the Greek translation the Jews themselves made from Hebrew:

καὶ εἶπεν ὁ θεὸς πρὸς Μωυσῆν ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ὤν καὶ εἶπεν οὕτως ἐρεῖς τοῖς υἱοῖς Ισραηλ ὁ ὢν ἀπέσταλκέν με πρὸς ὑμᾶς

Here is a standard English translation of that verse:

God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM." And He said, "Say this to the people of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'"

Can you read Greek letters? They are easy, not too different from English letters. Count words with me. Find words 7 though 10 in the Greek: ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ὤν. If you change it into English letters it could read "ego eimi Ho on." See? Both our words are there! Ego eimi and Ho on. loooool! Then look at words 18 and 19: Your words again by themselves: ὁ ὤν (Ho on), alone this time.

God tells His Name twice, in a long form first and then a short form. In English it's "I AM WHO I AM" and then just "I AM". (You can say "existed" if you want, I'm not fussing about translations now.)

The point is: ego eimi and ho on are TWO DIFFERENT WAYS OF SAYING THE SAME THING. And they are BOTH PARTS OF GOD'S NAME as He revealed it. When you start the long form, I AM WHO I AM, you start with "ego eimi." Ego eimi means something like "I am"... Ho on means something like "Who I am". It looks different if you don't speak Greek, but it's only a tiny grammar difference to put a relative pronoun in there: "Who".

And in Hebrew it's even more obvious it's the same. "I AM WHO I AM" IS "Ehyeh asher ehyeh." "I AM" by itself is "YHWH". You can see the similarity, it's just two forms of the same word both of which God uses as His Nam.

Now the first part, I AM WHO I AM, Ego eimi Ho on, is really considered by the Jews one of the Names of God, equivalent in holiness to just I AM, Ho on. Wikipedia is not the best source in the world, but it's easy to find and it's something, so here is their discussion of this issue to start you off:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_God_in_Judaism

It says: "I am that I am (Hebrew: אהיה אשר אהיה, pronounced ''Ehyeh asher ehyeh') is the sole response used in (Exodus 3:14) when Moses asked for God's name. It is one of the most famous verses in the Hebrew Bible."

"One of the most famous verses in the Hebrew Bible." Exactly.

Think about it. If somebody says to you, "In the Name of Allah...." and then stops, what will you fill in for the blanks? Is there any doubt at all? You will fill in "the Compassionate, the Merciful." Right? There is no second choice, really.

And if someone says to a Greek-speaking Jew (most of them spoke Greek) of the time of Jesus, "Ego eimi..." they know exactly what He is talking about and they know exactly what comes next, "Ho on." One of the most famous, perhaps, THE most famous single thing in the Bible for the Jews. If a Jew believed that someone was making themselves God--this is the Jews accusation against Jesus--and made the accusation and then the person ended his answer with "Ego eimi," they would know exactly what he was implying: "Yes, I am God."

This is what I am saying: If a Jew at the time asked you, Braiki, who you were, and you started answering him by saying solemnly, "Ego eimi," he would go for the nearest rock to stone you because you were clearly claiming the Name of God for yourself.

Why not Ho on, instead of Ego eimi? Well, I don't think it makes any difference. But there are several possibilities. Maybe because the Jews didn't ever even say, YHWH, or Ho on. Maybe because Ho on by itself is what God tells Moses to tell the Israelites, but Ego eimi Ho on is God's whole Name for Himself...it's the first answer He gives Moses when Moses asks for His Name.

But maybe the best answer is that the Jews got so furious with Jesus when He began saying Ego eimi that they didn't let Him finish. They immediately went for Him to stone Him again.

Jeff

16-10-06, 08:46 PM

Ego eimi--Tafsir Treatment by the Principle of 'Ayat Explains Ayat.'

Let me try this principle on Ego eimi.

Is Ego eimi just a regular phrase? Or is it a Word of Power? A Word of extraordinary Power? A Word of Divine Power and assertion of Divinity?

Well, there is another word of Jesus, since His words are what you are most interested in. It's the only other time Jesus says "Ego eimi" by itself, with nothing following. And the only other time He declares Himself and explains Who He is with those words. And it's the same Apostle writing, John, who wrote the "I AM" passage we are discussing. So it's a great tafsir! Passage clarifies and explains passage, verse clarifies verse, ayat reveals the meaning of ayat.

This is John 18:4-6. Jesus is being arrested in the Garden the night before He died. The soldiers and guards are approaching Him to take Him. He is with others and the soldiers want to know in the dark which one is Jesus. When Jesus knows what they are doing and sees them coming with lanterns and torches in the dark. He goes out to them. "Whom are you looking for?", He asks.

"Jesus the Nazorean," they say. And Jesus says, "I AM he."

Now in English we have to say "I am HE." But in Greek you don't say it that way. You say, "I am." And what are the exact Greek words Jesus uses? "Ego eimi."

John reports Jesus' words; John reports what happened next. If you trust one, you should trust both. And what happens next is, " When he said to them, "I AM," they turned away and fell to the ground."

Not a very reasonable way to act if these are just ordinary words, is it? But if they are a Divine claim, it makes perfect sense. They are temporarily overcome. They are faced with the Power and the Truth of Jesus claim. They do what Jews do only before God and before no one else. They fall to the ground and worship. And they turn away because no man on his own power can look on the Face of God and live, as the Bible tells us.

Is there an alternative explanation? Sure, we can make one. We can say that they were all sick after eating a bad dinner and they turned away embarrassed while they were throwing up. But I think the Christians' explanation of the Bible passage is the only really good one.

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you"

Well, yes the Jews at the end of the conversation COULD have been wanting to stone Him at the end of the conversation for a different reason than they had at the beginning. But not all prophets got killed and stoned. Ezekiel wasn't. John the Baptist wasn't killed by Jews, but by Idumaeans. Amos wasn't stoned and killed. Neither was Elijah. Moses wasn't killed. The list goes on and on.

And of course, the Jews listen to Jesus with respect very often in the Gospels. The only time they are moved to try to stone Him is when, according to them, He has claimed to be God. That's how they start the conversation, that's how they end it. It's POSSIBLE that they suddenly developed a different reason or that they just didn't like him in general. But it's not the natural interpretation. ESPECIALLY in light of our tafsir!

No the more I study and pray over this passage, the more clear it becomes to me: Jesus is claiming the Divine Name because He Himself is the Great I AM.

Additional Matters

Just a few additional points...

Jesus often speaks in such a way as to LEAD the mind that is open, rather than to force it with argument or contradiction, that's true. But it's not always true. There are many times he speaks to explain or to contradict or to chastise. My point is that if YOU think He is clearly explaining that He is a Man Only and Not God, it's hard to understand why He would choose to say verses that YOU think are clear explanation that He is a Man, but not clearly explain that He is Not God.

Remember when you are looking at verses about Jesus being human that Christians claim that He is 100% Truly God and 100% Truly Man. A passage in which Jesus prays doesn't establish that Jesus is not God. Men pray and Jesus behaves like a Man.

And remember that Christians do not say that the Eternal Father became man, but the Eternal Son, the Second Person of the Most Holy Trinity. Even in eternity, the Son always does what the Father tells Him, always asks the Father for everything, always receives everything from Him. This is the nature of God's own life. It is perfectly natural when the Eternal Son of God, the Word that existed before all ages becomes Man that He should continue to act as He did in Heaven.

*** I see that there are a few points I'm not covering right now, but I think these are the main ones. Let's see if we can limit this to one more exchange and then you can have the final word. We can turn to another topic and then sometime we can come back to this another time if you like. What do you say?

Jeff

16-10-06, 08:53 PM

You know, I apologize to you, Braiki, and to everyone for these giant posts. But there isn't really any way to respect the questions without deep explanation. If I were a better writer, perhaps I would find a shorter way. But it's the best I can do!

Of course, Braiki, I think it's worth answering you. I consider you a friend and a good and intelligent man.

Lym

17-10-06, 01:30 PM

Personal attacks, assumptions and posts were deleted.

For the purpose of this thread, ask any questions you want in a debateful manner or otherwise and allow other members to ask for any explanation they sought after. Remember this is a debate about religions, not about the motive of the posters. Thank you.

I will contact whomever needed via private messages.

Storm

17-10-06, 05:35 PM

Further to Lym posting

AS this thread is one of the valuable threads and we really don't want to lose it.

Please stick to the main purpose.

No need to force us locking it.

Haroundb

17-10-06, 09:13 PM

OK now Jeff, let us get it straight again…

Jews say Moses is the messenger & prophet sent by God. Muslims say Mohammed is the messenger & prophet sent by God. Christians says Jesus is God himself!

Why didn't He ever mention himself as "GOD" in The Bible where as he have mentioned clearly himself as "GOD" in The Old Testament (of the Jews) and in The Holy Quran of the Muslims?

Which is more correct? Moses, Jesus, Mohammad are prophets or Moses, Mohammad are Prophets, and Jesus is GOD!

I don't know why but I feel creepy about this, and really ODD! Don't you agree?

BrAiKi

17-10-06, 11:44 PM

and that's current topic of our debate! :D

Jeff

18-10-06, 01:36 AM

The question of "creepiness" is a question of hearts and what one feels inside, I think. Loool, yes, I have come to understand that "creepiness" that you feel, I think, and to accept it. But don't generalize! Christians feel zero "creepiness." Nothing like "creepiness" at all; the opposite in fact.

For a Christian, to miss the fact that God became Man and dwelt among us, full of Grace and Truth, is to miss the Secret of the Universe. We don't look at ourselves and think, "Hmm...how could we think something so weird! Let's not tell anyone our secret feelings of creepiness!" looooool! We look at non-Christians and smile like people who know a Great Secret that other people are missing out on and think, "Oh, those poor people! How can they live without Him? They don't understand what they are missing!"

We don't think, "Well, there were various prophets and wouldn't it make more sense to have a few more?" We think, "Why in the world would we want to change the Flesh and Blood that God Himself gave for us for another prophet! The prophets couldn't save us and their time ended with Christ. But the Son of God has delivered us forever."

We feel the Triumph and Victory of the Risen Christ, defeating Death and delivering the World from Sin forever. Our hearts are full of gratitude and exultation. "Alleluia! God has come and Saved His People! Sinful Servants have been changed into Adopted Sons and Daughter, who have the life of God Himself living in their Souls and Bodies." If you don't understand that, you don't understand the hearts of Christians.

As far as your question about why He did not declare Himself to be God, well, as Braiki says, this was the topic of our discussion. To Christians it seems that His Words and Deeds clearly declare Who He is. But only to a mind that is open. The Bible is our family book, handed on for generation after generation and we feel we understand it VERY well. People from outside, looking for evidence to disprove this or that seem to us like archaeologists digging up rocks and bones and trying to fit them together in funny ways, when all the time the village is still alive; just come and look!

Christ does not come to force our minds and spirits. God comes to meet us with a Human Face, so we are not overwhelmed. He speaks with a quiet and gentle voice that invites us to get to know Him BEFORE we understand Who He is. Our minds and souls are gently led to the truth, like a Shepherd leads His Sheep

But there is never a 100% answer to WHY God does things the way He does them. Why doesn't God show Himself clearly to everyone right now? He can do miracles for all the atheists and every challenge they give Him, He can meet. Then everyone will know the power and reality of God. But He doesn't. We can guess at an answer, but we will never fully understand it.

Storm

18-10-06, 09:44 AM

and that's current topic of our debate! :D

Friendly Debate :) ... NOT Fighting Debate !

Haroundb

18-10-06, 10:28 AM

The question of "creepiness" is a question of hearts and what one feels inside, I think. Loool, yes, I have come to understand that "creepiness" that you feel, I think, and to accept it. But don't generalize! Christians feel zero "creepiness." Nothing like "creepiness" at all; the opposite in fact.

To be honest, I don't agree with you, and that is what I did: I just asked the question in the "Yahoo Answers", and this is the reply I got, which probably will clear the point of "creepiness" which you think Christians feel zero about it.

THE FATHER, THE SON AND THE HOLY SPIRIT, are they "Forms", "Names", "Persons", "Adjectives" or "Status"? (http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=AujdnhOuj63x4jaT7wbqexsjzKIX?qid=200610 17155803AAwAvaY)

The FATHER, The SON & HOLY SPIRIT (What is the use of making them one and call him "GOD")? (http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=Av0izwNXYXeBv9o3N2tYFtrsy6IX?qid=200610 17153620AAda021)

Jesus is who, The Father or The Son? (http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=AlbGFfpEm_OYc2dA2gHn9xLsy6IX?qid=200610 17150607AAhCwhS)

Read the above questions and their answers carefully and then tell me why this "creepy" confusion people are caste into? I think you have to reconsider your belief that there something really wrong about the "Trinity" theory.

Read and tell me what do you think, and how do you explain the massive

bewilderment of the sheep locating their shepherd?

Why the shepherd didn't give a clear statemet about his identity? If he wants his herd to be lead to the correct path, he should (logically) "identify" himself to his beloved herd! At least a statement about "Who AM I?", if there were a single authentic script in the Bible that identifies GOD to his people, it would be very simple to locate him in this darkness!

If Jesus is GOD, and he came to lead his people to the light, why stay in darkness about who is HE?

When I read the all the replies of thoes who took the burden of answering, I found out that back at my first posts when I mentioned "confusion" and you disagreed and claimed I was wrong, .... Now I am sure that I am correct about it even more than ever?

Who is the GOD of Christians?

Haroundb

18-10-06, 11:50 AM

Wait!
Something got my attention, while reading the answes in the Yahoo Answers, one of them quoted John 3:16 and as I read the chapter, I found the word begotten very prompt and made me ask why "begotten"?? And after a big search in Google I found out that this words is not the correct translation of the original word of God which was originally in Greek language, and which is translates lierally as "Unique"!

I was shocked ...!!!

In King James Version, most easily recognized Bible verse in the world (as Christians say) John 3:16 "For God so loved the world,that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Isn't this correct?

The verse in the original Greek is as follows:
Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον, ὥστε τὸν υἱὸν τὸν μονογενῆ ἔδωκεν, ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν μὴ ἀπόληται ἀλλ᾽ ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον.

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j106/Haroundb/untitled.gif

Which could be translated literally as:
For in this way God loved the world: that he gave the unique son, so that all the ones trusting in Him would not perish, but have eternal life.

The more familiar King James Version renders it as:
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

"Unique" & "begotten" aren't these different words? How the word begotten jumped into the text?

Can you say that begotten means unique? I think anyone who speaks English will know that it is impossible to say that "unique" means in any way "begotten"!

That is why I think that the script that you are reading is not even correctly translating one of the most important vital words of God, changing "Begotten" to "Unique"!!!!!!!!!!!

If it is unique son, then it is like "any good human is a god son" as related to spiritual fatherhood (if we take it that way even). But begotten son is like "a human given birth to by the father (God)", related to offspring and actual fatherhood!

What do you think? Did those who translated the word of God "Bible" wanted people to think that Jesus is the "Begotten" insted of the "Unique" son?

Note: Still you don't feel the creepiness?!

IceTea

18-10-06, 02:16 PM

The second thing to understand is: the Trinity is a Mystery. Nobody can expect to fully understand it. After all, it's a Secret.

Don't you think it's a human made Mystery and many Christians convert to Islam because of this concept?

God isn't SomeTHING. He is SomeBODY. God is a HE, not an IT. God is a PERSON, or at least He is PERSONAL, to use the technical term.

If you think God is like humans (a person), why humans can't see him?

Jeff

18-10-06, 03:58 PM

Ice Tea:

So great to see you back! I was worried about you...

Haroundb:

Still not the slightest bit of creepiness, my friend!

If you pose a question on Yahoo Answers! anybody can answer. I imagine that if you ask on this forum or on Yahoo for Muslims, "Why does a good God create people that He condemns to Hell?" or "Why doesn't God show Himself to us clearly so that no one can deny Him," you will get many different answers, some will make sense and some will not. I see Muslims disagreeing and arguing about questions like this even here--I think it means three things. 1. Not all Muslims agree on the answers. 2. Some Muslims may not know the best answers. 3. God and His ways are not so easy to understand--there are mysteries for all of us Believers!

If you want to know Catholic doctrine, use The Catechism of the Catholic Church. That's a good alternative resource to Yahoo! or the Bible Alone (which Catholics don't believe in!). It is official Catholic teaching, straight from the Vatican. You can find it here and it has a good Table of Contents:

http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/ccc_toc.htm

Chapter One, Article One, Paragraph Two has a discussion of the Trinity and what it means.

Another good resource for Catholic doctrine is the Catholic Encyclopedia. Here is their article on the Trinity, but you can look up most anything there. It's an old work, but still very good:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15047a.htm

On "only-begotten", the Greek word in your quotation is "μονογενῆ", "monogenes". "-genes" means "begotten", especially when you're talking about fathers and sons. If you want to say that a son was begotten by his father, you say "genes". If you want to say he's the only one who was begotten, you say, "monogenes". You can recognized these words in English too: "-genes" is the root of "generate" and "mono" means "only" or "one" like in "monotheism", which means "one-only-God-ism".

Well, if your son is "only-begotten" then he is "unique" isn't he, since there isn't any other? I guess maybe that's what the person who used that word meant. "Unique" just comes from Latin through French, instead of from Greek.

Thank you, my friend for your loving concern for me and your interesting and excellent questions.

Jeff

18-10-06, 04:19 PM

Don't you think it's a human made Mystery and many Christians convert to Islam because of this concept?

Oh, not at all, my friend! I believe with all my heart that it is revealed by God. And the more I study it, the more I believe it.

I think most Christians who convert to Islam and most Muslims who convert to Christianity don't know their own faith very well. Most strong Muslims and strong Christians don't convert. I know there are exceptions both ways--the leader of our local Ethiopian Evangelical Christian Church here in Washington is the son of an Imam and an expert in Quran--but I think the general rule is as I say: lack of strong understanding and belief.

And many of those who convert to Islam come back! Here is a blog by one, though he hasn't posted in a long time:

http://albertusminimus.typepad.com/albertus_minimus/

If you think God is like humans (a person), why humans can't see him?

Well, if God is not a person, but a thing, why can't you see Him? The question is the same, I think. Or maybe your answer is He is not Person or Thing, but a Mystery? Something impossible to fully understand? You mean, like the Trinity? Watch out, I think Haroundb doesn't like mysteries... loool!

But God wills, commands, has mercy and talks to us. Things don't do that; persons do. Person does not mean only human by the way; humans are persons but not the only kind of person.

Our answer is like this: God in His own Nature is Spirit. Angels are spirits, too. Our human souls are also spirit.

God can make spirit "appear" to us, but by nature our eyes only see the material world, not the spiritual.

And of course, one can even be a human and not be visible. Why can't I see you, Ice Tea? The answer is: I can, but not right now.

Our answer is finally this: It is possible to see God after the Incarnation, because He took a human body for Himself and became a Man. And one day, we will see Him with our eyes, inshallah! Face to Face.

I am so glad to have you back! You are one of my favorites and I missed you a great deal.

Haroundb

18-10-06, 05:52 PM

If you pose a question on Yahoo Answers! anybody can answer. I imagine that if you ask on this forum or on Yahoo for Muslims, "Why does a good God create people that He condemns to Hell?" or "Why doesn't God show Himself to us clearly so that no one can deny Him," you will get many different answers, some will make sense and some will not. I see Muslims disagreeing and arguing about questions like this even here--I think it means three things. 1. Not all Muslims agree on the answers. 2. Some Muslims may not know the best answers. 3. God and His ways are not so easy to understand--there are mysteries for all of us Believers!

Totally wrong my friend, go ahead and ask "Who is Allah?" and see what are the verities you will get and come back that there is one Muslims that have doubt about the description of GOD (Allah). Comparing this to debatable facts about why got created us, or why created devil or why he did that or this.

I think you are just trying to escape the fact that Christians don't know who is GOD! As I can see you didn't deny the idea of "doubt" about the identity of God related to the Trinity fact among Christians, instead you tried to draw false simulation between different issues.

If you want to know Catholic doctrine, use The Catechism of the Catholic Church. That's a good alternative resource to Yahoo! or the Bible Alone (which Catholics don't believe in!). It is official Catholic teaching, straight from the Vatican. You can find it here and it has a good Table of Contents:

http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/ccc_toc.htm

You want me to go to a place where answers are issued along with questions to those who will answer? And people say what they are supposed to say? A place where preachers brain wash people with complicated similarities to cast them into illusions? To convince them of the truth by blundering their minds with complicated amplified words of sophisticated meanings?

Get the truth straight of the mouth of the ordinary people, those who don’t have any profit from deceiving other people. In Yahoo answers you get what inside people's brain not what inside their preachers!

Chapter One, Article One, Paragraph Two has a discussion of the Trinity and what it means.

Another good resource for Catholic doctrine is the Catholic Encyclopedia. Here is their article on the Trinity, but you can look up most anything there. It's an old work, but still very good:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15047a.htm

Now I have deep fear of the Catholic doctrine which I started to take the word doctrine as the bad meaning which is "domination of people's minds"

On "only-begotten", the Greek word in your quotation is "μονογενῆ", "monogenes". "-genes" means "begotten", especially when you're talking about fathers and sons.

Looooooooool :) here is the trick you used jeff: when you said that the Greek word in your quotation is "μονογενῆ", "monogenes" and simply this is TOTALLY WRONG! Then you started using it in the rest of your explaination as if it is a fact!

…If you want to say that a son was begotten by his father, you say "genes". If you want to say he's the only one who was begotten, you say, "monogenes". You can recognized these words in English too: "-genes" is the root of "generate" and "mono" means "only" or "one" like in "monotheism", which means "one-only-God-ism".

So I address you and everyone who reads this debate to go to this site (http://www.kypros.org/cgi-bin/lexicon) of Engish – Greek / Greek – English translation. Go there and type "Unique" in the English – Greek box and see the result and compare it with the word "μονογεν" see the root of the word ”μονογεν" which even starting with the "u"!

And listen don't think this is correct, go to this site (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_3:16), and see for yourself the complete explanation of it!

Well, if your son is "only-begotten" then he is "unique" isn't he, since there isn't any other? I guess maybe that's what the person who used that word meant. "Unique" just comes from Latin through French, instead of from Greek.

Thank you, my friend for your loving concern for me and your interesting and excellent questions.

No … I will agree that "unique" will mean "one and only" but "begotten" … No I don't agree at all, begotten has nothing to do with Unique! Sure it doesn't come from the Latin through French, it comes directly from the Greek script written in Greek Language!

Thanks for you kind heart and nice polite answer Jeff :)

Jeff

18-10-06, 08:26 PM

Well, my point was just that there are some issues on which Muslims are confused and argue and others on which Christians are confused and argue.

And on the nature of God, Ice Tea and I are discussing if God is a person or a thing or what? So far, it seems I haven't got a clear answer. So Muslims may feel that they understand, but I don't see that their understanding is any better than ours.

So you are welcome to disagree with me, my friend, but I think the similarity I pointed out is a good one.

As far as who to ask, well, if I ask a Muslim some question and he gives me an answer that is confused, should I say Islam is wrong because of his answer? No, I should go to educated Muslims and to the Quran, to Hadiths, to the trusted manuals that do tafsir, right? That is all I am suggesting. For true Christian doctrine, go to the reliable source.

And if you come to my church on Sunday for coffee after Mass, you can ask anybody, even the tiny kids, about the Trinity and they will tell you it means Three Persons in One God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. My eleven year old son can tell you, if you like! I'm sorry the guys on Yahoo are confused, but not everybody is confused.

On μονογενῆ, I'm sorry, but just look up the Greek alphabet if you want to know how to pronounce it! It's monogene, the accusative singular masculine form of μονογενής which is monogenes. Can you read Greek? Shall I spell it for you?

μ = m in English. The name of the letter is 'mu'. It's not a 'u.' If you want a 'u' in Greek you use the letter upsilon. It looks like this: υ. See the difference? Mu has a little tail on the bottom left. Upsilon doesn't.
Check it out, here's a Greek alphabet:

http://www.keyway.ca/gif/greek2.gif

Or use any Greek alphabet yourself that you choose. But μ = 'm'. Not 'u'. The next letter is ο. That's omicron, pronounced 'o.' So far we have 'mo...' Next letter is ν. That's nu. It's pronounced 'n'. So far we have 'mon...' Come on, man, you trust me yet? It's monogenes, like I said!

Sure, it can mean 'unique'. But it means 'unique' because it's two Greek words stuck together μονο and -γενής. They mean 'one' or 'only' and 'stems from; flows from; generated by'. So literally, it's "the only one that stems or flows from." Christ is the only son that stems or flows from the Father. That's what the word means.

Is it better to say "only-begotten" or "unique"? Neither one, exactly. We don't have that word in English. Come on, you're a translator. You know that there are words in one language which have different meanings in another. And sometimes there are words that can't be translated at all because they have no exact equivalent.

It says literally, 'the only son that flows from, or is engendered by, the Father.' When Christians say 'begotten' we are not talking about Sex anyway. There is not sex inside God. The son is 'engendered' by the Father and flows from him. When a Father engenders a son, we say 'begotten'. So I think the argument is about nothing in the end. "Only one that is engendered by" is the best translation in this place, 'only begotten' is very good, 'unique' is okay here but not as good.

There's not one answer to this controversy, some scholars like one word, others like another. But all you have to do is google "monogenes" to see the different answers that are given.

Where does the word 'unique' come from? Latin through French, like I said:

unique: 1602, "single, solitary," from Fr. unique, from L. unicus "single, sole," from unus "one". Meaning "forming the only one of its kind"

Latin through French, not from Greek.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=unique

So, the Son is unique (the only one of his kind) because He flows from the Father. Sounds like "only-begotten" to me!

Look, I'm sorry for the detail, but I know something about Greek. I know something about Latin and a little even about French. I know a lot about English etymology. It's complicated, I know, but it's not a "trick." If you follow carefully, you can see what I'm saying and all the reasons for it.

If you challenge me to give answers, I don't think it makes much sense to talk about brain-washing and tricks. If I convince you, okay. If not, okay.

But I think my mind is not too bad. I argue honestly and I listen to my Muslim friends very carefully. In fact, if you read what I write on the threads, you will see that I defend the Muslims' stand sometimes better than the Muslims do! Why? Because I want to be honest and I don't want to use bad arguments just because they agree with me.

IceTea

18-10-06, 10:52 PM

Jeff

19-10-06, 01:58 AM

Thanks Jeff for the answer and it's nice to discuss with you!

The question is if you believe that the Bible has many versions and also many additions/omittions then what makes you believe that everything stated in it is the truth. Would you trust a book which have many versions or a book which has only one version and never changed?

If you believe that God can be in a form of a man then who created God? And if it's possible to see God then why not see him in this life and when do you think humans will be able to see God, any evidences?

Ice Tea, I can't tell you how happy I am that you are back! It's nice to discuss with you, too. And with everybody on this thread. Everyone has interesting points to discuss. I am sure I make my friend, Haroundb a bit frustrated sometimes, but I appreciate his intelligence and interest as well as his strong belief.

I appreciate your politeness in the way you ask your first pair of questions. These are question that I have encountered before from my Muslim brothers and sisters and I understand their feeling about it. So let me try and explain my feeling.

The Quran is a collection of prophecies to one man over a very short period of time. My understanding is that shortly after the death of the Prophet of Islam, these prophecies were gathered together and standardized by one of the earliest Caliphs. And this was at a time that the community of Muslims was quite small compared with today and concentrated geographically.

For these reasons, it is not very surprising that there would be few or no variations in the text. (I have read of a find of a very old Quran in Yemen a few years ago with differences, but I can't be sure that this is true.)

The Bible is a very different kind of book! It was written by many different people over thousands of years. It has some prophecy--to many different prophets--but it also has history, stories, poetry and songs, collections of laws, gospels, and letters.

Given the long history over which the Bible was collected, it does not surprise me that there would be a few textual variations. What is surprising, I think, is how very few and how minor they are. I don't think this is really an important issue for Christians.

Sometimes when Muslims talk about "variants" in the Bible, they are speaking about the fact that for some time Christians disagreed about which books belonged in the Bible. Again, since the Bible was written over a long period od time and in different places, there have been a few arguments, but most of us have long ago come to agree on which books were genuine. Christ told us that the Holy Spirit would guide us to all truth and He seems to me to have done a fine job of it.

You see, we see God's hand revealing itself not in one sudden set of prophecies, but in his guidance of his people over thousands of years. Looking at this guidance, we find the Book that is the most concentrated form of it at the heart. While I understand what my Muslim friends mean when they point to what they see as the superiority of the single, pure Revelation, I find the action of God in His People over time much more convincing in the end.

***

I'm not sure I understand your last two questions very well; perhaps you could try explaining them again. No one created God, He is the Uncreated. He is not a man by His own nature, but He became a man, fashioning a body for Himself in the womb of the Virgin. Is this the answer you were looking for?

As to the second part, I mean, the "evidence" that we will see God face to face depends on how you see the evidence that Christ is God. If you don't believe in that, then you won't believe that seeing Him is seeing God, right?

Why can't we see God all the time? As I said, in His nature, He is spiritual and He cannot be perceived with the bodily eye, but only with the spirit. Why can't we see angels and djinns all the time? Sometimes they are present, but we cannot see them. We can't see them naturally, and they don't appear to us usually. Why not? I don't know. Do you?

As far as why God doesn't appear to us always to convince of His reality, well, why doesn't He do a miracle every time someone has a doubt? I don't know the answer to that either. God reveals Himself and hides Himself in different ways at different times.

But I think maybe I didn't understand your questions properly. If you want to try asking again, I can try again, too!

Storm

19-10-06, 11:39 PM

liberty .. wudjab .. you can discuss that using PM if you wanted to.

Please no Off topic posting.

wudjab

20-10-06, 05:28 AM

Well done Jeff.

$niper

20-10-06, 07:49 AM

IceTea

20-10-06, 08:24 AM

The Quran is a collection of prophecies to one man over a very short period of time. My understanding is that shortly after the death of the Prophet of Islam, these prophecies were gathered together and standardized by one of the earliest Caliphs. And this was at a time that the community of Muslims was quite small compared with today and concentrated geographically.

For these reasons, it is not very surprising that there would be few or no variations in the text. (I have read of a find of a very old Quran in Yemen a few years ago with differences, but I can't be sure that this is true.)

Jeff, the holy Quran is not a collection of prophecies but a constitution for humanity and a guide to them in this life to reach to the happiness in this life and the hereafter. There are signs and miracles in the holy Quran to humans, and yes it includes stories about previous prophets with their people and what happened to them for other people to learn and take lessons. There are no differences in the Quran, old, today or future copies will remain the same one version since the prophet time. God propmised to protect it and it shall be protected from abuse. It was revealed to prophet Mohammed over a period of 23 years and every time a verse revealed by angel Gibreal the prophet memorize it and ask his companions to memorize it and write it down. Angel Gibreal also used to study the Quran with the prophet.

]This is the Book (the Qur'ân), whereof there is no doubt, a guidance to those who are Al-Muttaqûn (the pious and righteous persons who fear Allâh much (abstain from all kinds of sins and evil deeds which He has forbidden) and love Allâh much (perform all kinds of good deeds which He has ordained))

He is not a man by His own nature, but He became a man, fashioning a body for Himself in the womb of the Virgin.

When you say that then it means the womb (such small thing) can occupy God and god created space and the whole universe so your saying means God is smaller than such place!

Finally I will leave you with below verses:

No son (or offspring) did Allâh beget, nor is there any ilâh (god) along with Him; (if there had been many gods), then each god would have taken away what he had created, and some would have tried to overcome others! Glorified is Allâh above all that they attribute to Him!

O people of the Scripture! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, nor say of Allâh aught but the truth. The Messiah 'Isâ (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), was (no more than) a Messenger of Allâh and His Word, ("Be!" - and he was) which He bestowed on Maryam (Mary) and a spirit (Rûh) created by Him; so believe in Allâh and His Messengers. Say not: "Three (trinity)!" Cease! (it is) better for you. For Allâh is (the only) One Ilâh (God), Glory be to Him (Far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allâh is All-Sufficient as a Disposer of affairs.

Lym

20-10-06, 11:15 AM

Okay, final warning, if any of the members have criticisms about the debating skills of any of their fellow members, then please use the PM facility. Let this thread serve its purpose please.

Thank you and Eid Mubarak :)

Jeff

20-10-06, 03:13 PM

Jeff, the holy Quran is not a collection of prophecies but a constitution for humanity and a guide to them in this life to reach to the happiness in this life and the hereafter. There are signs and miracles in the holy Quran to humans, and yes it includes stories about previous prophets with their people and what happened to them for other people to learn and take lessons. There are no differences in the Quran, old, today or future copies will remain the same one version since the prophet time. God propmised to protect it and it shall be protected from abuse. It was revealed to prophet Mohammed over a period of 23 years and every time a verse revealed by angel Gibreal the prophet memorize it and ask his companions to memorize it and write it down. Angel Gibreal also used to study the Quran with the prophet.

]This is the Book (the Qur'ân), whereof there is no doubt, a guidance to those who are Al-Muttaqûn (the pious and righteous persons who fear Allâh much (abstain from all kinds of sins and evil deeds which He has forbidden) and love Allâh much (perform all kinds of good deeds which He has ordained))

When you say that then it means the womb (such small thing) can occupy God and god created space and the whole universe so your saying means God is smaller than such place!

Finally I will leave you with below verses:

No son (or offspring) did Allâh beget, nor is there any ilâh (god) along with Him; (if there had been many gods), then each god would have taken away what he had created, and some would have tried to overcome others! Glorified is Allâh above all that they attribute to Him!

O people of the Scripture! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, nor say of Allâh aught but the truth. The Messiah 'Isâ (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), was (no more than) a Messenger of Allâh and His Word, ("Be!" - and he was) which He bestowed on Maryam (Mary) and a spirit (Rûh) created by Him; so believe in Allâh and His Messengers. Say not: "Three (trinity)!" Cease! (it is) better for you. For Allâh is (the only) One Ilâh (God), Glory be to Him (Far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allâh is All-Sufficient as a Disposer of affairs.

Thanks, Ice Tea!

In order to carry this conversation further we would have to discuss the Quran directly. I prefer not to do that for two reasons... 1. It's not really the topic of the thread, which is questions about Christian doctrine; 2. I have not yet found a way to freely discuss the Quran and Mohammed without hurting feelings or making people angry. Since I respect and honor Islam and Muslims as having much truth in their religion, I don't like to do that.

But I thank you for your witness, as usual.

wudjab

20-10-06, 05:17 PM

Why not give it a shot, Jeff ?

I am sure you will be able to carry out a respectful debate regarding the Quran.

Jeff

20-10-06, 05:31 PM

Wudjab:

I don't think we can carry this discussion further without being deleted for off-topic! Why not start a thread, "How Should Religion be Debated" or something like that? Then you can be the beneficiary of all my pearls of wisdom (lol!). Or PM me if you want...

Jeff

20-10-06, 05:43 PM

Dear Jeff, i envy u man :cool: ... top class debater ;) .. I never got bored readin evrysingle post that u wrote... I dont really agree with wat u've said but i so much adore da way u express urself and response in a very attractive n civilized way...if someone asked me, 'what's cooler than being cool'.. I'd say --> 'Jeff' :hyper:
i'm fan of u, keep it up ma friend

Sweet brother, Haroundb... U're de man bro,... so proud of you...clearly, u're a an experienced debator ;). May Allah reward you in this world and in the hereafter... keep it up Bro n be easy on Jeff ;) he is your guest. you don't wanna let him be cooler than ya, do u ? :flag:

You praise me too much, Sniper, but thanks!

I don't think these debates are usually successful at convincing. I am happy with increasing understanding. If Muslims understand better what Christians think and how they can think it, I have achieved my aims 100%. And if Christians understand better the criticisms Muslims have of Christianity, that is really great, too.

All praise and thanks to Mr. Haroun for being a great debater and posing great, challenging questions and giving all of us the opportunity to discuss this stuff...

BrAiKi

20-10-06, 06:17 PM

okay Jeff, the question of the eternal life, what grants a person the eternal life, according to christianity ?

Jeff

20-10-06, 06:52 PM

Oh, no, Braiki, now it's two questions from you! loool!

I think I will try to answer them, but maybe not til Monday. And is this thread the right place or is the other thread better? Or maybe a new thread?

BrAiKi

20-10-06, 11:38 PM

answer this question on this thread please, its the thread of questions to christianity :p
no problem, you may take all the time you want ;)

Haroundb

22-10-06, 02:09 AM

There is a question that keeps knocking on my head, that I can't still get a straight answer for it from the Chrisitan methodology:

I will locate the verse in the Bible and post the question with Proof. It is time to open the Holly Book!

Haroundb

22-10-06, 03:01 AM

The Reference:
------------------------------------------------------
The Holly Bible, King James Version [Deuteronomy 18: 15,18,19]
------------------------------------------------------

[15] The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;

[18] I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

[19] And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

------------------------------------------------------

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The Question:
------------------------------------------------------
Fill the following blanks with one word according to your understanding:
------------------------------------------------------

-[15] The LORD [........] thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet [........] from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me [........] ; unto him ye shall hearken;

-[18] I [........] will raise them up a Prophet [........] from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his [........] mouth; and he [........] shall speak unto them all that I [........] shall command him [........].

------------------------------------------------------

Tip:
You can use "The Father", "The Son", "The Holly Spirit", "God", "Jesus"...etc. What ever you find suitable.

Good Luck!

The Holly Quran
[The Heights 7:157]

'In The Name of Allah Most Gracious, Most Merciful'.

[157]"Those who follow the apostle, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures),- in the law and the Gospel;- for he commands them what is just and forbids them what is evil; he allows them as lawful what is good (and pure) and prohibits them from what is bad (and impure); He releases them from their heavy burdens and from the yokes that are upon them. So it is those who believe in him, honour him, help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him,- it is they who will prosper."

[79]"Many are the Jinns and men we have made for Hell: They have hearts wherewith they understand not, eyes wherewith they see not, and ears wherewith they hear not. They are like cattle,- nay more misguided: for they are heedless (of warning)."

What Else Can Be Said?

Kara

22-10-06, 05:13 AM

Haroundb, just a slight reference correction. Should be Dueteronomy 18:15-19, 'cause there are 34 chapters in Deuteronomy.

Haroundb

22-10-06, 07:48 AM

Haroundb, just a slight reference correction. Should be Dueteronomy 18:15-19, 'cause there are 34 chapters in Deuteronomy.
Exactly, I typed it "Dueteronomy 18:" and then by mistake deleted it witout noticing thanks for the correction! :)

Haroundb

24-10-06, 03:08 AM

Jeff

24-10-06, 04:28 AM

Haroundb

24-10-06, 12:13 PM

I saw your question, Mr. Haroun, you have to give me time to attend to other things, including other people on Sabla and also on this thread!

And today is Eid, so I will take a break from arguing in honor of my beloved Muslim brothers and sisters...

God bless all.
Take all the time you like brother Jeff, take your time... Just would like to know the answer to that question at any time that suits you. And I am really happy that you are so much in care of Muslim brothers and sisters, God bless all.

Your manners dear brother Jeff is just capturing my respect to you, that is what I have to admit. God bless you and all our brother Christians and fill your way with lights of wisdom and truth…

Ameen!

Jeff

25-10-06, 04:56 AM

Take all the time you like brother Jeff, take your time... Just would like to know the answer to that question at any time that suits you. And I am really happy that you are so much in care of Muslim brothers and sisters, God bless all.

Your manners dear brother Jeff is just capturing my respect to you, that is what I have to admit. God bless you and all our brother Christians and fill your way with lights of wisdom and truth…

Ameen!

Ameen, Ameen! Inshallah!

Jeff

26-10-06, 05:37 PM

Since long didn't notice anyone posting a reply to the weird question I have posted in this lengthy thread regarding the mentioning of a "Prophet" in the Bible who not any Christian want to talk about (scroll down or click here (http://www.englishsabla.com/forum/showpost.php?p=786562&postcount=104)). And since threads which stay without new posts may disappear from the "new posts" which most of the members do check. I just posted this to revive things and bubble the thread up again to get attention due to the seriousness of the question and vitality of an answer from our brother Christians (Jeff & the others) who thankfully took the burden answering my doubtful mind.

Just an effort to break the attempt to "Skip The Truth!". Still the quesstion is vaild and an answer is required.

Thanks!~

Okay, Mr. Haroundb! But let's be generous to each other. I don't think I have tried to "Skip the Truth"; I have spend a lot of time and effort in giving the best and deepest answer I can give to your questions...that's what my respect for you and your questions requires.

First, let me say that I have seen this prophecy debated on the Web between Christians and Muslims before.

I don't know what good it does to fill in blanks, since there are no blanks in the verses! But I understand the blanks to be posing two questions:

Who is the Prophecy predicting?

and

How do you think about God as fulfilling such a prophecy if you think God is a Trinity of Persons and Christ is Himself God? Doesn't that make nonsense?

I understand the Prophecy as applying to Jesus Christ. I don't think it's so hard to appreciate the Christian understanding:

All things flow from God the Father, the Son always obeys the Father's will, on earth and in heaven. There is no division in God.

What is a Prophet? One who speaks the Truth. Often, one who reveals hidden things of God. Sometimes, one who speaks of things that will come to pass one day.

Christians understand well that Christ is a Prophet, just as He is a Man, and Son of Mary, and a Carpenter, and a Cousin. He is more than Prophet, not less or other.

God the Father will raise up a Prophet, like Moses is a Prophet, from among the Jews (the brethren) who will speak the Truth that the Father puts in His Mouth. And in the End of Time, everyone will recognize this Prophet for Who He is. It will be required of all...as St. Paul says, "Every knee shall bow, every tongue confess, that Jesus Christ is LORD!"

We see this prophecy being referred to by St. Philip the Apostle in the Gospel according to St. John, Chapter 1, Verse 45. He says to the Apostle St. Nathaniel, "Philip found Nathaniel and said to him, 'We have found Him of Whom Moses in the Law and the Prophets did write, Jesus the son of Joseph of Nazareth.'"

Nazareth was a town with a bad reputation among a lot of Jews so St. Nathaniel says, "Can anything good come from Nazareth?" "Just come and see!, says St. Philip to St. Nathaniel. And Nathaniel does! With very interesting results...

The Prophecy is referred to in the Acts of the Apostles, Chapter 3, verse 22, and it is quoted as referring to Christ.

Now, I'm sure you will show me how I am all wrong! :p I'll look forward to it!

BTW, "let's open the Holy Book," you said. Do you really have a Bible or are you speaking figuratively?

God bless, thanks for the discussion.

Jeff

26-10-06, 05:52 PM

When you say that then it means the womb (such small thing) can occupy God and god created space and the whole universe so your saying means God is smaller than such place!

When I said that I didn't want to discuss further because I didn't want to discuss deeply about the Quran here, I missed this part!

My answer to this would be that this is not what we believe.

We do not think that God stopped being God when He became Man, or that He was on Earth, but no longer in Heaven. So, He is not "confined" in the womb of Mary, but His human self is there.

God transcends the limitations of time and space in ways that we cannot understand. But as I have said before, the easiest way for the imagination to grasp the Incarnation (God truly becoming a real Man) is to imagine a writer that puts himself in his own story. When God "puts Himself in His own story" it is a real thing, since His story is real, not just imaginary.

Jeff

26-10-06, 06:24 PM

okay Jeff, the question of the eternal life, what grants a person the eternal life, according to christianity ?

Okay, Mr. Haroun, Braiki wants me to answer on your thread and I hope you don't mind! If you do mind, please ask the mods...the question of where I should post is too complicated for me!

Braiki, I think this will probably be the beginning of a long conversation, like "I AM" and other things!:p Here is short catechesis on "Eternal Life" as Catholics see it.

The short answer is: Faith in Jesus Christ is the one and only way to escape from sin and find Eternal Life. "No man comes to the Father, but through Me."

Faith is not just "belief", it is something real that changes us and it comes from God. OUR part of it usually begins with belief (if we are adults) and reaching out to Christ. But God's response fulfills it.

God's response is achieved when we become Members of Christ's Body, the Church. We do this by being baptized, submitting to the form which Christ Himself ordained, "Unless a man is born again by water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God." When we are baptized, we are incorporated in Christ Himself and He and His Father and the Spirit come and make their home in us. We have that Life Eternal already within us, called "Supernatural Grace."

We have to KEEP Faith, though. That means we have to live a Life of Faith. We can fall along the way and lose our Faith, through disbelief or serious sin. If we die in that state, we lose Eternal Life permanently.

If someone knows, or is in a position to know, Who Christ is and he turns away and rejects Him, then that person will be damned.

If a person does not understand, because of his upbringing or the way his mind has been trained, it may be that He will encounter Christ in his life or even at his death, in some form that he will find acceptable. There is a scene in a children's book by C. S. Lewis called "The Last Battle" that illustrates this.

In that story, there is a man who has been serving the enemies of the Christ-figure in the story. The Christ-figure, called Aslan, comes to the man. The man says sorry that he had served the wrong side. Aslan says that the man had recognized Aslan in his heart, even though he did not know His name, and that all the worship the man had given to his false god had really been accepted as true worship. This is because the man truly and honestly sought the Truth and did his best to follow it.

How many will be saved this way? We do not know. We also do not know how many Christians will be found truly faithful at the end. But we know that God is merciful, that His Name is Love. And we know that, though we are sinners and do not deserve it, He loves us with more passion than any human lover and He wills our salvation. He desires our salvation so passionately that He came to earth and died for us to achieve it!

So, we must rely on Him and trust in His Mercy and Love, but we must always take responsibility for our actions and never presume that we will be saved. As St. Augustine said, "The God who made you without you will not save you without you."

BTW, I will be away and probably Sabla-less from Friday to Wednesday. So don't think that no response from me means that I have lost interest!

Haroundb

27-10-06, 12:02 AM

I understand the Prophecy as applying to Jesus Christ. I don't think it's so hard to appreciate the Christian understanding:

It is hard, or even impossible to appreciate that there is no answer to any given question. When someone describes for you something impossible to imagine, then the limitation could be yours, but when he describes something that he himself can't imagine, then sure he should reconsider his understanding. Can we say that you is he, and him is they? Can it be right to answer all the straight simple questions with totally an imaginary unacceptable answer?

[15] The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;
who is speaking to whom here? Isn't it Moses to the Jews? Can it be someone else? Define the conversation?

[18] I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

Who is speaking to whom here? Isn't it God speaking to Jews? Tell me another setup for this conversation?

I think that God made these two verses just that whoever want to deny will fail. How? He just gave it in two different pronouns which can never be interpreted as something other than "God will send a prophet other than Jesus"

Christians understand well that Christ is a Prophet, just as He is a Man, and Son of Mary, and a Carpenter, and a Cousin. He is more than Prophet, not less or other.

Sorry, Christians don't think that Jesus Christ is a Prophet. Now they think so? Isn't it they "believe" he is GOD as you told me before? Ask the man who lives next to you, knock his door, and ask him, Jesus is a Prophet or God? And please tell us the result of it.

God the Father will raise up a Prophet, like Moses is a Prophet, from among the Jews (the brethren) who will speak the Truth that the Father puts in His Mouth. And in the End of Time, everyone will recognize this Prophet for Who He is. It will be required of all...as St. Paul says, "Every knee shall bow, every tongue confess, that Jesus Christ is LORD!"

No … The Jews are not the brethren referred to by God…; this conversation is directed to the Jews.
Mohammad is the only Prophet who is comming from the offspring of Ismaeel the brother of Isaac father of Jacob (Israel) which all the jews descend from. So the brothers of the jews are those sons of Ismaeel who settled in Mecca and who is the first to speak Arabic. So the brothers of the Jews are the Arabs decending from Ismaeel. The only Prophet who came from the offspring of Ismaeel is Mohammad Peace be them all.

Brethren can't be Jews, as far as the one who is addressed is the Jews themselves. The brother of George is Thomas, ... You can't talk to George and address him by "your brother" and still mean George himself again! This is the deviation used to skip the truth, refering back to wrong references.

God is Jesus and Jesus is the Prophet, Jesus the God, is talking to Jesus the Prophet, about Jesus the prophet! You is him and me is you, and bla bla bla.... Odd ... Odd ... Odd! How can a sound mind accept a reference of pronouns like this!

We see this prophecy being referred to by St. Philip the Apostle in the Gospel according to St. John, Chapter 1, Verse 45. He says to the Apostle St. Nathaniel, "Philip found Nathaniel and said to him, 'We have found Him of Whom Moses in the Law and the Prophets did write, Jesus the son of Joseph of Nazareth.'"

This is how they tried to fix the problem…An answer which is very far, far from the easy understandable one!

Now, I'm sure you will show me how I am all wrong! I'll look forward to it!

So should I say no I won't do that? It is very clear Jeff...Very clear!

BTW, "let's open the Holy Book," you said. Do you really have a Bible or are you speaking figuratively?

http://etext.virginia.edu/kjv.browse.html (http://etext.virginia.edu/kjv.browse.html)
Nothing is difficult now with the WWW.

wudjab

27-10-06, 12:29 AM

Haroundb

27-10-06, 12:52 AM

Please, even though Dhimmi Jeff might accept this tone of debate, it is deeply offensive to Christians.

Haroun, you might want to take a more respectable approach, else you might find others taking the same attitude when discussing Islam.

I apologize, and for sure I have all respect for all the Christians head of them Jeff, you and the others all over the world...This is out of discussion.

I did refine my words and removed unnecessary emotional words which may slip every now and then. Thank you very much for bringing it to my notice and I hope whenever you feel offended to tell me to remove from my post whatever you don't feel good about.

Sorry again if I got you or anyother Christian brother offended without my intention!

wudjab

27-10-06, 01:15 AM

Thats fine Haroun, as long as we understand each other..

BrAiKi

27-10-06, 02:19 AM

um, haroun, the verses you quoted are from the Torah, and I think in the first line its Moses (PBUH) speaking to the Jews, and the 2nd line its God talking to the Jews.. it happend way before the birth of Jesus Christ! but yeah I do believe that it's Prophet Mohammed in OT. and, the comforter is also Prophet Mohammed in the NT :)

Haroundb

27-10-06, 09:19 AM

OK, that is right, I fogot to check the title, still that is what I got from the "Bible".Still valid idea it is holding since Jesus is not from the Jews, Jesus doesn't have a father...So clear a point that brain can't skip such a trooth.

Thanks Braiki for correcting me, and I have done the required correction in that post.

Kara

27-10-06, 11:01 AM

Jewishness is matriarchal not patriarchal, the fact that Jesus "doesn't" have a father just eliminates his tribal affiliation but does not take away him being Jewish.

IceTea

27-10-06, 11:26 AM

So, He is not "confined" in the womb of Mary, but His human self is there.

I'm not sure if I got what you mean by the above part (underline).

So you are saying that Mary gave birth to God?

Here is short catechesis on "Eternal Life" as Catholics see it.

The short answer is: Faith in Jesus Christ is the one and only way to escape from sin and find Eternal Life. "No man comes to the Father, but through Me."

Why not faith in God is the one and only way to escape from sin and find Ethernal life, who created humans Jesus Christ or God? So who should be responsible for forgiving sins and allowing to enter heaven?

Haroundb

31-10-06, 11:13 AM

Jiff won't be here for quite sometime, and I think no other Christian brother would take the effort of doubting his believes. I think this thread relays alot on a source of answers which sadly not simply available.

Haroundb

31-10-06, 11:15 AM

Just reviving the question, don't want it to be skipped over or forgotten, this is seriously an important question.

This is the link (http://www.englishsabla.com/forum/showthread.php?p=789844#post789844).

Jeff

01-11-06, 08:11 AM

Haroundb:

Replying to your last long post...

I'm not sure what your point is about "brethren." God is speaking in the wider sense of "brothers", meaning "relatives." In this case, the whole tribe of the Israelites. That seems a more normal reading to me than that the prophet should be from OUTSIDE the Israelites...

It would be very unusual for there to be a reference to non-Jews as "brothers". If you are speaking of a large group of people or a tribe and you say "their brothers," the normal sense of it would be "the brothers of them individually; their relatives; fellow members of the tribe," not people outside their tribe. The natural meaning of the phrase "from their brethren" is "from among them." And here is a modern translation, direct from the Hebrew of the same passage: "A prophet like me will the LORD, your God, raise up for you from among your own kinsmen; to him you shall listen."

http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/deuteronomy/deuteronomy18.htm

The great, classical dictionary of the English language is the Oxford English Dictionary (not online). I'm lucky enough to have it in my personal library and here is definition 1.b. of "brother": 'Including more distant kin: A kinsman, as uncle, nephew, cousin (chiefly a Hebraism of the Bible)'

Here is definition 2 of "brother": 'A fellow-clansman, fellow-citizen (one who has the same patria or fatherland.'

So, I think your reading is understandable, but not the correct one that an educated native speaker would find in the use of the word in the context you chose.

This is the problem that one finds in online links. Often the links that Muslims and Christians use against each other are presented as if they are the simple truth. But usually there are many possible conclusions, not just one, not just even two.

***

As far as Christ being a Prophet, all Christians teach that He has three offices, Priest, Prophet, and King! He unites all three in Himself. I don't know about knocking on doors, but any educated Christian will tell you that. Try going to Google and write in just these words:

priest prophet king

You will find almost all the references are to Christ and all are by Christians.

Of course, Christ is a prophet and this is what Christians teach. But, He is much MORE than simply a PROPHET.

***

I think Kara is right about Christ's Jewishness. I may be wrong--you will correct me on this if I am since you are a Muslim and I am not--but I think most Muslims have the idea that God simply formed Christ anew and PLACED Him inside Mary's body. But Christians believe that He took His flesh from her. An example at random from a Greek prayer: "O Mother of God, intercede for our salvation with Him Who took flesh from thee!" Christ gets His Humanity, and thus His Jewishness, from the Blessed Virgin. This is an important Christian idea for you and Braiki to notice, I think, since you are both interested in Christian/Muslim apologetics. I have seen it cause confusion more than once when Christians and Muslims are talking.

Anyway, I'm sorry to disappoint you again, but I don't see the problem with this prophecy, which Christians have understood as applying to Jesus since before the Bible was written. It strikes you as a weird and twisted interpretation, but to us it seems simple and straightforward.

BTW, don't worry about offending me. My feeling is that you are convinced you are right and you feel very strongly, that's all. So we will always forgive each other, like good brothers, if we are not perfect, right?

By the way, Braiki has had the last word, as is proper, in our discussion of the Trinity on his thread. Anyone interested should take a look. I salute him for a fine job! Thanks, Braiki!

Jeff

01-11-06, 08:39 AM

I'm not sure if I got what you mean by the above part (underline).

So you are saying that Mary gave birth to God?

Why not faith in God is the one and only way to escape from sin and find Ethernal life, who created humans Jesus Christ or God? So who should be responsible for forgiving sins and allowing to enter heaven?

I see your difficulty in understanding me, Ice Tea. The problem is, the differences in our understandings of basic ideas go deeper than the questions. If you go back and read the first five or six long posts I wrote (if you don't get tired! :p ) you can see where some of the differences come in. I don't want to write them again, so I will just put short form answers.

The first question is answered by: Yes, of course. The church I go to every Sunday in Washington DC is St. Mary, Mother of God church. So, of course, she gave birth to Him after bearing Him within Her for the term of pregnancy as all mothers do.

As we sing:

The God Whom earth and sea and sky
Adore and laud and magnify
Whose might they own, whose praise they tell,
In Mary's body deigned to dwell.

(If you like online panoramas, here's a beautiful one from the Washington Post of the inside of my church:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/panorama/2006/06/02/PA2006060201006.html

)

But she is God's Mother only in His Humanity, not His Divinity. God took a Human Nature and in His existence as a Man, Mary was and is His Mother.

As far as your second question, yes, only God can forgive sins. And in the Bible, Christ forgives sins. This is one of many signs of His Divinity. The Jews said, "He is making Himself God. Only God can forgive sins!" They were right.

Since we understand man as sunk hopelessly in sin, which infects him like a disease (as I explained in one of my first posts), simple forgiving by word of mouth is not enough. The disease needed a radical cure and Christ provided it.

Haroundb

01-11-06, 09:07 AM

So Jeff, who is this prophet God is talking about?

Jeff

02-11-06, 01:43 AM

So Jeff, who is this prophet God is talking about?

As I have said already in all my posts, it is Jesus the Christ: Priest, Prophet and King, True God and True Man.

Haroundb

02-11-06, 07:44 AM

As I have said already in all my posts, it is Jesus the Christ: Priest, Prophet and King, True God and True Man.
This is quite nice, I was expecting you to say so. But there is a problem here Jeff.

Jeff, so why wouldn't he be Solomon, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Joel, Malachi, John the Baptist ...etc? Why did you say Jesus? Why not Mohammed?

Haroundb

02-11-06, 09:15 AM

Part One:

[18] "I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him."
[Deuteronomy 18:18]

Comparison: Moses, Muhammad & Jesus (Peace be upon them all).

Birth
Moses: Usual, Father + Mother.
Muhammad: Usual, Father + Mother.
Jesus: Miracle mother only.

Family Life
Moses: Married & children.
Muhammad: Married & children.
Jesus: Not Married & no children.

Death
Moses: Natrual Death.
Muhammad: Natrual Death.
Jesus: Crucified / Raised (According to Muslims).

Burial
Moses: Buried in earth.
Muhammad: Buried in earth.
Jesus: Heavenly Aboded.

Ruler
Moses: Ruler
Muhammad: Ruler
Jesus: Not a Ruler

Forced Emigration
Moses: Migrated to "Madian"
Muhammad: Migrated to "Madina" (Even same letters of alphabet!).
Jesus: None.

Pursuit
Moses: Hot Pursuit (Not Caught)
Muhammad: Hot Pursuit (Not Caught)
Jesus: None.

Tyep of Victory During Life
Moses: Spiritual + Physical
Muhammad: Spiritual + Physical
Jesus: Only Spiritual.

Writing down of Revelation
Moses: During his life.
Muhammad: During his life.
Jesus: After his death.

Nature of teachings
Moses: Legal / spiritual
Muhammad: Legal / spiritual
Jesus: Spritual

-----------------------------------------------------
This is why I say that it is not Jesus but Muhammad the prophecy in [Deuteronomy 18:18] is talking about. You can prove me wrong in this comparison if you can, or show another comparison where Jesus is more like Moses than Mohammad (Peace be upon them all).
-----------------------------------------------------

Haroundb

02-11-06, 11:19 AM

Part Two:

[18] "I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him."
[Deuteronomy 18:18]

History tells us that Muhummed was forty years of age when he was in a cave some three miles north of the City of Mecca. It was the 27th night of the Muslim month of Ramadaan. In the cave the Archangel Gabriel commands him in his mother tongue:'IQRA' which means READ! or PROCLAIM! or RECITE! Muhummed was terrified and in his bewilderment replied that he was not NOT LEARNED! The angel commands him a second time with the same result. For the third time the angel continues. Now Muhummed, grasps, that what was required of him was to repeat! to rehearse! And he repeats the words as they were put into his mouth:

"Proclaim! (or read!) in the name of thy Lord and Cherisher, Who created[1] Created man, out of a (mere) clot of congealed blood[2] Proclaim! And thy Lord is Most Bountiful[3] He Who taught (the use of) the pen[4] Taught man that which he knew not[5]."
(Holy Qur'an 96:1-5)

Now When you put words into someone's mouth, what are you doing actually? You are teaching him? This is how Allah did put His words in the mouth of prophet Muhammad. The striking fact is that prophet Muhammad is NOT LEARNED! So this is "EXACTLY" applicable to him. Allah did put his words in the mouth of prohet mohammad, which is Quran, since prophet Muhammad was not taught by anyone before. So Allah commanded him to "READ" not in the sense of reading, but in the sense of proclaim, that Allah knew sure that prophet mohammad doesn't read!

[12] And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.
[Isaiah 29:12]

I don't know what to say more!! The above verse is from the King James Bible, Old Testament. This is exactly what happened to prophet Muhammad in "Ghar Heraa" while he was sitting in a cave in the mountain near Mecca. I have mentioned up:

Now When you put words into the someone's mouth, what are you doing actually? You are teaching him right? This is how Allah did put His words in the mouth of prophet Muhammad. The striking fact is that prophet Muhammad is NOT LEARNED! So this is "EXACTLY" applicable to him. Allah did put his words in the mouth of prohet mohammad, which is Quran, since prophet Muhammad was not taught by anyone before. So Allah commanded him to "READ" not in the since of reading, but in the since of proclaim, that Allah knew sure that prophet mohammad don't read! Who else can deny this?

[19] And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.
[Deuteronomy 18:19]

The first verse in Sura Al-Fatiha or the 'opening' is; 'In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful'[Holy Qur'an 1:1]. This is the first of the first of whatever mentioned in the Holy Book of Quran, and the sura "chapter" that we read in every prayer. All the suras of Quran (with no exception starts with the same statement 'In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful':

"In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful[1] Praise be to Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds[2] Most Gracious, Most Merciful [3] Master of the Day of Judgment[4] Thee do we worship, and Thine aid we seek.[5] Show us the straight way,[6] The way of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy Grace, those whose (portion) is not wrath, and who go not astray.[7]
[Holy Qur'an 1:1-7]

'In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful'
"Say: He is Allah, the One and Only[1] Allah, the Eternal[2] Absolute[3] He begetteth not, nor is He begotten[4] And there is none like unto Him[5]"
[Holy Qur'an 112:1-5]

'In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful'
"To thee have We granted the Fount (of Abundance).[1] Therefore to thy Lord turn in Prayer and Sacrifice.[2] For he who hateth thee, he will be cut off (from Future Hope).[3]"
[Holy Qur'an 108:1-3]

Haroundb

02-11-06, 11:34 AM

Part Three:

[19] And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou?
[20] And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ.
[21] And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.
[22] Then said they unto him, Who art thou? that we may give an answer to them that sent us. What sayest thou of thyself?
Johan 1:19-22]

[25] And they asked him, and said unto him, Why baptizest thou then, if thou be not that Christ, nor Elias, neither that prophet?
Johan 1:25]

So he is not, Christ, nor Elias, neither the prophet?!!!!

Who is "THE PROPHET"?

Haroundb

02-11-06, 11:40 AM

http://www.themodernreligion.com/prophet/bible_muh.htm (http://www.themodernreligion.com/prophet/bible_muh.htm)

This is the source of my content, the debate of Ahmed Deedat, God bless his soul. Go there and read the full content.

BrAiKi

02-11-06, 03:02 PM

great effort haroundb, n I thought I was the only one who noticed the quote in Isiah about prophet mohammed :os :P
Mashallah!

Jeff

02-11-06, 03:32 PM

Well, the question of who the Prophet in Isaiah is is an interesting one. There are lots of unlearned prophets, though, including Amos, for example.

But I think Haroundb you are misreading the sense of "like you" in the prophecy. If I say "He's a boy like you," then I can mean he is a boy with particular characteristics that are very similar to yours. But I can also just mean that both of you are boys. That's all it means. Moses is a prophet, and God will raise up another one.

God ALWAYS "puts His words in the mouth" of a prophet, so I don't see what's so striking about this.

If you want to be so literalistic, you could always say that it wasn't God that placed the words in the mouth of the Prophet of Islam, but the angel Gabriel. So he doesn't fulfill that prophecy.

Mind you, I don't think this way of being overly literal with the text makes the best kind of sense, whether we are talking of Moses, Christ, or Mohammed. But if you can do it with Christ, we can do it with Mohammed.

The basic problem here is that Christians find the claims of Mohammed and Islam completely unimpressive and unconvincing on many, many grounds. But in order to discuss that, we would have to take up anti-Islamic polemics and I would be required to speak against the religion of the vast majority of the people here, who are my friends. I just don't want to do that publicly, especially in an Islamic forum; I have found that it hurts people and offends them even when they try their best not to be hurt and offended. And since Islam is the matrix for their belief in the One, True God, and I respect and honor it for that reason, I don't want to do that.

So, when you imply that Christian teaching is indefensible or you ask, "Why don't the Christians want to talk about it?" then I feel honor bound to reply. But I try to look for the line where I am beginning to question Islam rather than defend Christianity and keep away from that line.

So for example, if you imply, "This prophecy can only be about Mohammed, you see?", then I can answer, "Here is why it can apply better to others in the Christian view." But if I am requested, "Give me a complete answer as to why you DON'T think this applies to Mohammed," then I have to get into lots of issues such as why Mohammed doesn't seem like a genuine prophet at ALL to Christians. Many of your latest posts above seem to require that in order for me to answer them fully.

That turns the focus away from Christianity and puts it on Islam. And it causes pain and scandal to a lot of beautiful people who love Mohammed and for whom he and the Book he gave them have been the road to understanding God.

So, I am avoiding dealing with the parts of the challenge you give me for the reasons above. If you are truly interested in listening to or reading some things that will give you an introduction to why Christians find the claims of Islam unconvincing, PM me and I will send you some links.

wudjab

02-11-06, 03:41 PM

Post them here so all can participate. That would be the honest thing to do.

Debate must swing both ways.

Jeff

02-11-06, 04:10 PM

Haroundb

02-11-06, 04:16 PM

1- I knew that you wouldn't post a reply to my last question because now it is so clear so that no one can deny it. The Bible is talking now not the Quran, so what could you say?

2- I knew that you are turning the discussion upside down, since this is a technique used when things come too much critical when there is no way out of it other than "chaning the subject!". If I am wrong, prove me wrong.

3- You didn't answer the question.

Jeff

02-11-06, 05:35 PM

I answered all your questions, including answering your question about "Who is the Prophet" on at least three occasions. The Prophet is Jesus.

I explained why I thought your objections about "brothers" and "like you" and "put words in your mouth" don't hold water and why they fail to show what you want them to show: that the prophet isn't Christ. Did I miss something? It's one thing to say you don't like my answers. It's another to say that I didn't answer!

The prophecy from Isaiah you quote is a DIFFERENT prophecy from a completely different part of the Bible. Why do you put them together? Perhaps I am not understanding your purpose. This passage from Isaiah does not refer to Christ and it does not refer to any particular prophet in the future.

You have to read all the verses, not just verse twelve. God is talking through the prophet Isaiah to the people of Israel. Start with verse 9:

9 Be irresolute, stupefied; blind yourselves and stay blind! Be drunk, but not from wine, stagger, but not from strong drink!
10 For the LORD has poured out on you a spirit of deep sleep. He has shut your eyes (the prophets) and covered your heads (the seers).
11 For you the revelation of all this has become like the words of a sealed scroll. When it is handed to one who can read, with the request, "Read this," he replies, "I cannot; it is sealed."
12 When it is handed to one who cannot read, with the request, "Read this," he replies, "I cannot read."
13 The Lord said: Since this people draws near with words only and honors me with their lips alone, though their hearts are far from me, And their reverence for me has become routine observance of the precepts of men,
14 Therefore I will again deal with this people in surprising and wondrous fashion: The wisdom of its wise men shall perish and the understanding of its prudent men be hid.

Here is the meaning: At the period of time Isaiah is writing, the people of Israel have been acting like drunk people, deep sleepers, living in sin and shutting their ears to God. God punishes them by keeping them in that state. He has allowed things to come to such a pass that the potential prophets and seers of the time cannot or will not do their jobs. Their minds are darkened and they make excuses. When God gives a prophecy telling the people of that time that they are misbehaving and disobeying God, their minds are too dark to understand it.

God compares the prophecies He tries to give those He wants to act as prophets of the time to a sealed scroll. If He gives such a prophetic scroll to a prophet of the time who can read, that prophet makes one excuse: "It's all sealed up, I can't open it!" When He gives a such a prophecy to a prophet of the time who can't read, that prophet makes a different excuse: "What use is a written scroll to me? I can't read!"

The point of the passage is not about any particular prophet in the future. It's about how the prophets of Isaiah's time weren't doing their jobs, they didn't want to know and tell others that the people were living in sin and abandoning God. But you have to read the whole thing, not just pick out verse 12, in order to see that.

Go back and read the passage again, verse 9 through 14 including 12 in it's proper place and I think you will see that it has nothing to do with Christ or Moses or Mohammed or anybody else.

****

Part of your lengthy posts implies that the prophecies fit Mohammed better than anybody else, am I right? And you have lengthy quotations from the Quran, right? Now, in order me to show why I reject that explanation, I have to talk freely about Mohammed and the Quran, right? So, how am I changing the subject if I explain why I don't want to do that?

Look, I'm sorry if I did something that made you lose your temper. But if you say, "now it is so clear so that no one can deny it," you seem to be levelling an accusation of dishonesty: "Jeff knows in his heart that I have proved my case but he refuses to admit it and deliberately tries to change the discussion to hide that."

Now that doesn't make me angry since I know you are saying it out of frustration and the belief that you are right. It's frustrating when a person is completely convinced of the truth of their own religion and it seems that others who don't see it that way are missing something so clear and obvious. But it's better to keep such accusations out of a "friendly debate", don't you think? You wouldn't like it if I said to you, "Your are just making excuses, you can't face my points," would you? And if we say such things to each other, it's just like pointless fighting, it doesn't help any readers. Besides, I know that deep down we really respect each other and like each other.

So, if you have a problem with an answer I gave, or if I misunderstood you or missed one of your questions, point it out and I will try again.

Haroundb

02-11-06, 06:11 PM

Well, the question of who the Prophet in Isaiah is is an interesting one. There are lots of unlearned prophets, though, including Amos, for example.
[12] And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.
[Isaiah 29:12]

And was he requested to read and he said I am not a learned same like our prophet Mohammad? What a coincidence!!!!!

But I think Haroundb you are misreading the sense of "like you" in the prophecy. If I say "He's a boy like you," then I can mean he is a boy with particular characteristics that are very similar to yours. But I can also just mean that both of you are boys. That's all it means. Moses is a prophet, and God will raise up another one.
I will 100% agree with you if you tell me what would it mean if God told Moses "I will send a prophet NOT like you"! What would not like you mean?

God ALWAYS "puts His words in the mouth" of a prophet, so I don't see what's so striking about this.

And ... and that prophet shall speak unto them all that God shall command him... Right? Why God is so much elaborating this point? I think He is so much insisting on 'WHAT IS GOING TO BE PASSED' I mean the content? Doesn't this mean a "Script"? was that of Amos?

If you want to be so literalistic, you could always say that it wasn't God that placed the words in the mouth of the Prophet of Islam, but the angel Gabriel. So he doesn't fulfill that prophecy.

Who said I am literal about the one who did the action? It seems that you didn't understand my question. I said that God put the his words into the mouth of Mohammad in the way that Prophet Mohammad was to recite what he was told just the way it is told, since he don't know how to read so he got it written for him.

Mind you, I don't think this way of being overly literal with the text makes the best kind of sense, whether we are talking of Moses, Christ, or Mohammed. But if you can do it with Christ, we can do it with Mohammed.

No one is stopping you as far as you are doing it in a polite way.

The basic problem here is that Christians find the claims of Mohammed and Islam completely unimpressive and unconvincing on many, many grounds. But in order to discuss that, we would have to take up anti-Islamic polemics and I would be required to speak against the religion of the vast majority of the people here, who are my friends. I just don't want to do that publicly, especially in an Islamic forum; I have found that it hurts people and offends them even when they try their best not to be hurt and offended. And since Islam is the matrix for their belief in the One, True God, and I respect and honor it for that reason, I don't want to do that.

I thank you Jeff for you kind emotions, but sure if Christians find claims of Mohammed and Islam completely unimpressive and unconvincing on many many grounds, then sure I myself will open a thread to explain your doubts just on one ground, "TO EXPLAIN THEM" which means if you found that what I am presenting is logical and acceptable, to admit it loud and clear. Other than that would be considered "just hate" useless to be discussed and wouldn't add nothing to you.

Those Muslims who are hurt are those who don't understand Islam fully, so if youa re speaking politely presenting your doubts sure no one will be offended. Do you get me?

So, when you imply that Christian teaching is indefensible or you ask, "Why don't the Christians want to talk about it?" then I feel honor bound to reply. But I try to look for the line where I am beginning to question Islam rather than defend Christianity and keep away from that line.

You may question Islam as you like as far as you are doing it in a polite way. Mostly those who attack Islam carry their hate with them. If you don't carry hate then discuss and question whatever you like, Inshallah you will find satisfying answers.

And about the indefensible Christianity, I think this is a feeling that you have, which from my side I better describe it as Islam is a continuation to Christianity, where the Christian teachings are largely diverted from what Christ himself want. Since I do belive fully that Jesus is a prophet of Allah, and he was never said that he is His son! And that Jesus did pass the message of Allah that Prophet Mohammad will be comming later after him, and his message and words should be fully listened to and applied, because they are the words of God himself that he put in the mouth of Prophet Mohammad who won't be able to bring words of his own since he is not literate...DIFFICULT?

That turns the focus away from Christianity and puts it on Islam. And it causes pain and scandal to a lot of beautiful people who love Mohammed and for whom he and the Book he gave them have been the road to understanding God.

Islam is not fragile as you think Jeff, the sure thing is that you didn't have an answer to your doubts that is why you got the impression of the "beautiful deceived Muslims" would be shocked when you start doubting their prophet Mohammad.

This is a sweet poison statement, showing mercy from your side to the totally deceived Muslims, which puts you up in level and enhances the idea that you are discussing..."Old Technique"! Jeff no one is a fool now, I opened a thread (http://www.englishsabla.com/forum/showthread.php?p=794110#post794110) to clear your doubts.

So, I am avoiding dealing with the parts of the challenge you give me for the reasons above. If you are truly interested in listening to or reading some things that will give you an introduction to why Christians find the claims of Islam unconvincing, PM me and I will send you some links.
Already opened a thread: Why Mohammed Doesn't Seem Like a Genuine Prophet To Christians? (http://www.englishsabla.com/forum/showthread.php?p=794110#post794110)

Jeff

02-11-06, 06:34 PM

I'm sorry, Haroundb. You can talk about my "doubts" all you like. I don't have any.

But I have many, many years of experience in talking with Muslims. I am interested in giving answers about Christianity. I am not interested in arguing with Muslims about Islam on a Muslim forum. Whatever you say, I have much experience of Muslims getting angry and frustrated and hurt. So, I simply choose not to dispute the question in a public place. It may not bother you, but I feel sure it will bother others and I just don't choose to be involved in it. You can conclude, if you like, that that's because I have doubts. Of course, other people can conclude that the reason why you want to argue about it so much is that YOU have doubts. Neither conclusion proves anything.

So, let Wudjab and others answer your thread about Mohammed, not me.

Haroundb

02-11-06, 06:42 PM

Jeff

02-11-06, 06:53 PM

[12] And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.
[Isaiah 29:12]

And was he requested to read and he said I am not a learned same like our prophet Mohammad? What a coincidence!!!!!

I've answered this in a previous post. You're just picking the verse out of context and not reading the whole passage.

I will 100% agree with you if you tell me what would it mean if God told Moses "I will send a prophet NOT like you"! What would not like you mean?

If you say, "He is from America, like you," that means he is from America and so are you. If you use the words in that sense then "He is from America, NOT like you," is meaningless. "He is a prophet like you" is just "he is also a prophet".

And ... and that prophet shall speak unto them all that God shall command him... Right? Why God is so much elaborating this point? I think He is so much insisting on 'WHAT IS GOING TO BE PASSED' I mean the content? Doesn't this mean a "Script"? was that of Amos?

"All that God shall command" means the Prophet is completely reliable. He always does what God commands. Christ fits that perfectly.

Who said I am literal about the one who did the action? It seems that you didn't understand my question. I said that God put the his words into the mouth of Mohammad in the way that Prophet Mohammad was to recite what he was told just the way it is told, since he don't know how to read so he got it written for him.

And here you are with the Isaiah quote again, a different passage from the other prophecy. But I explained what the means in my long post before.

No one is stopping you as far as you are doing it in a polite way.

I thank you Jeff for you kind emotions, but sure if Christians find claims of Mohammed and Islam completely unimpressive and unconvincing on many many grounds, then sure I myself will open a thread to explain your doubts just on one ground, "TO EXPLAIN THEM" which means if you found that what I am presenting is logical and acceptable, to admit it loud and clear. Other than that would be considered "just hate" useless to be discussed and wouldn't add nothing to you.

Those Muslims who are hurt are those who don't understand Islam fully, so if youa re speaking politely presenting your doubts sure no one will be offended. Do you get me?

You may question Islam as you like as far as you are doing it in a polite way. Mostly those who attack Islam carry their hate with them. If you don't carry hate then discuss and question whatever you like, Inshallah you will find satisfying answers.

And about the indefensible Christianity, I think this is a feeling that you have, which from my side I better describe it as Islam is a continuation to Christianity, where the Christian teachings are largely diverted from what Christ himself want. Since I do belive fully that Jesus is a prophet of Allah, and he was never said that he is His son! And that Jesus did pass the message of Allah that Prophet Mohammad will be comming later after him, and his message and words should be fully listened to and applied, because they are the words of God himself that he put in the mouth of Prophet Mohammad who won't be able to bring words of his own since he is not literate...DIFFICULT?

Islam is not fragile as you think Jeff, the sure thing is that you didn't have an answer to your doubts that is why you got the impression of the "beautiful deceived Muslims" would be shocked when you start doubting their prophet Mohammad.

This is a sweet poison statement, showing mercy from your side to the totally deceived Muslims, which puts you up in level and enhances the idea that you are discussing..."Old Technique"! Jeff no one is a fool now, I opened a thread (http://www.englishsabla.com/forum/showthread.php?p=794110#post794110) to clear your doubts.

Already opened a thread: Why Mohammed Doesn't Seem Like a Genuine Prophet To Christians? (http://www.englishsabla.com/forum/showthread.php?p=794110#post794110)

Well, you can call it "sweet poison" if you like. I will be happy to discuss Mohammed and Islam with you in private. But not in a public forum.

It doesn't imply that I am better or that you are deceieved. It just means that believers of any religion, true or false, are human. They get their feelings hurt when you question things they love, if your arguments are good, they get defensive. Truth or not truth, people are defensive about their religions.

So, put up a flag if you like and say, "Jeff is defeated! He has no answers!" I don't mind. But I'm not going to debate Mohammed and Islam and the Quran with you on Sabla.

Jeff

02-11-06, 06:59 PM

There you go, so what else can I do to help you to say what you want? OK ... send me a PM with your links and truth about prophet Mohammad and being not agenuine prophet, I just want to do it, very much willing to do it, and I won't let this chance go, it is a pleasure to answer a doubts of an honorable man like you Jeff!

You are misunderstanding what is going on. They are not "doubts". They are reasons why I do not accept Islam. Just like you have reasons why you don't accept Christianity.

I am not "trying to say" or "wanting to say" anything. I am not yearning for a discussion to ease my "doubts." If we discuss this issue, it will only be because you insist on it, not because I want it.

I will send you some links if you will undertake not to turn our discussions into a public debate. Do you agree?

wudjab

02-11-06, 07:03 PM

Wudjab:

So, the only honest thing to do is to attack Islam publicly?

I disagree. All that's required for honesty's sake is that I make clear that I am a Christian and why. I am not required to attack and criticize all other religions in all places at all times, no matter whether I judge it would be fruitful or destructive.

If you want to post links against Islam, by all means do it. And if you are worrying about whether Catholicism is true or Islam is true, I'll give you advice and counselling--but outside the public forum.

Who said anything about publically attacking Islam ? All I am asking you is to carry out the debate honestly, which will also require you to discuss issues that might be uncomfortable to the other side.

Why is that so difficult for you to understand ?

Haroundb

02-11-06, 07:16 PM

I will send you some links if you will undertake not to turn our discussions into a public debate. Do you agree?
Sure I agree, send them to me.

Jeff

02-11-06, 07:29 PM

Who said anything about publically attacking Islam ? All I am asking you is to carry out the debate honestly, which will also require you to discuss issues that might be uncomfortable to the other side.

Why is that so difficult for you to understand ?

One man's "objection" is another man's "attack."

And making people "uncomfortable" in their religion is not always a good thing.

People tend to "quarrel" about religion without meaning to. And debates about religion tend to turn into quarrels.

Other people who may not be very sophisticated may be hurt or offended when something they think is beautiful is painted in less beautiful colors or something that they consider "proven" suddenly has serious questions put about it.

Suppose you have a friend who has a much beloved and respected father and you think the father engaged in some shady business practices. Do you have some kind of obligation to have a public disupute about that? Or can you say, "She loves her father, she's attached to him, and he's a good man in many ways. Either my objections will make no difference, or else I will hurt her. Nothing good can come of it."

I think you underestimate the role of the heart in religions, Wudjab. You yourself complain of being offended when Muslims question Christ's Divinity. So, why don't YOU be the one who picks things up from here, since you want a debate about the validity of Islam? You're a smart guy and you've argued these matters before. And you've admitted I've been stellar at carrying to torch for Christianity. Why not take a turn yourself instead of saying, "Let's you and him fight?"

It's nice to see you and Haroundb agreeing on something for once, though! :p Still, I'm not going to be stampeded into doing something that I've determined not to do from the outset and after many years experience.

Haroundb

02-11-06, 08:05 PM

9: Stay yourselves, and wonder; cry ye out, and cry: they are drunken, but not with wine; they stagger, but not with strong drink.
They have gone so far into sins and closed their minds stupidly, so words won't affect them, so they are like drunken people, no brains to think and see the truth.

10: For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.
Continuation to the idea above, sense God found them greatly faulty and beyond repair. So he covered the brains of the prophets from the knowledge (meaning he will sentence them to great punishment, taking away the message 'gif' and closing the brains of the prophets from his word of wisdom)

11: And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed:
In other words the (Book) of God is been taken away from them not physically but meaningly, so even the learned won't get to understand it. No guidance will be for them from Allah because they refused it. God's message is a light that is given to those who deserve it, and Jews don’t deserve it so it was taken away from them. And this is what the "vision" mentioned is talking about. When the learned man won't be abled to understand it "sealed", since it is sealed, it won't get into the understanding of prophets to deliver it to the sinful people!

12: And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.
Then the book (Quran) will be passed to another prophet (Mohammad) of another nation (Arabs) who is not learned, but will teach even those who are learned. Can't be "him" will refer to those who don’t know how to read. Simply because God won't request a person who is not learned to read, since God already knows that he won't be able to do so. And why should God deliver "the book" to an ordinary person who doesn't read? Does this make sense?? This action of giving the book to "him" (Prophet Mohammad) who is not learned is the marvelous work and wonder mentioned in the following verse No.14, where the knowledge of this prophet (Mohammad) will surprise those who are wise and knowledgeable , and it will be a truth that will hide all other truth from the much of its clarity and miraculous.

13: Wherefore the Lord said, For as much as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:
Describing those blind people who are denying the truth of God (Jews).

14: Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.
This is exactly what I have mentioned in verse 12 above, the marvelous work (Quran) a marvelous word and a wonder (EXACTLY AS WE SAY ABOUT QURAN) .

15: Woe unto them that seek deep to hide their counsel from the LORD, and their works are in the dark, and they say, Who seeth us? and who knoweth us?
Taking about the Jews who hide their true faulty intentions from people and thinking that they are hiding it from God himself. They work in the dark, and they think that no one see them, and no one knows them.

Jeff

02-11-06, 09:14 PM

Well, you are relying on an old translation with difficult grammar, but the meaning is the same.

The passage doesn't talk about a book coming to anyone. Verse 11 says "as a book that is sealed." In modern English that means like a book that is sealed.

There is no book, it's a "simile", a comparison using like or as, very much like a metaphor.

Here's the part from verse 11 that is confusing you:

"And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed"

In modern English, that means, "The sight of all your sins has become like a book that is sealed." It's like a book that is sealed because you have to actually take some effort to see and understand, like OPENING a book.

In fact, in modern English we use the same concept. If someone doesn't understand about science we say, "Science is a closed book to him." There is no book, of course, it's just an expression.

In verse 11, it says the "vision" of sins is "like" an imaginary scroll that is given to one who CAN read it and he says one thing. In verse 12, it says the vision is "like" the same imaginary scroll is given to one who CAN'T read it and he says another thing.

Suppose there were a passage that said, "Your sins are like a sword! For the active sinners, the sword cuts innocent neighbors. For a quiet sinner, the sword cuts himself."

It's the same structure and the "sword" is used the same way the "book" is used in the original. But there is, of course, no sword or book.

Sorry, Haroundb, it's very clear. There's no book and no prophet predicted at all. It's just talking about how people don't want to admit their sins, that's all.

But I think readers can understand now what to think by reading our explanations and judging for themselves.

My position? This one is a VERY easy call. No prophet and no book predicted in Isaiah. Just a poor understanding of the meaning of the text.

Haroundb

02-11-06, 09:45 PM

Sorry, Haroundb, it's very clear. There's no book and no prophet predicted at all. It's just talking about how people don't want to admit their sins, that's all.

But I think readers can understand now what to think by reading our explanations and judging for themselves.

My position? This one is a VERY easy call. No prophet and no book predicted in Isaiah. Just a poor understanding of the meaning of the text.
OK there is no book, and no prophet predicted at all. Then you are taking it all as metaphor! Sure this is a risky thing to do Jeff because I think you will have to admit that THE WHOLE BIBLE is a metaphor then! What I know is that God doesn't waste words like we do, and what you are saying is that for God to say that they are sinners He is putting a full page of words of no significant meaning but just for "Time Pass"!

My position? There is a big question mark on my face regarding the intentions of God sending a Book of lenghty metaphors as you indicated!! Our Holy Quran doesn't have a letter without a great meaning, and you are telling me that a full chapter is full of nothing but a repetition of the same meaning of just a small part of information about some sinnersA!?

Jeff

03-11-06, 01:49 AM

Well, Haroundb, try reading the next two chapters of Isaiah. What are they about? Not Mohammed and not Jesus.

Does that mean that they don't have meaning or are not important? They are part of a history of God's people that has great meaning for us. The lessons of the people, who went astray from God again and again, but always returned in the end when He pleaded with them and punished them are deeply meaningful, moving and important.

I certainly don't think that everything in the Bible is metaphor. But if God says, "You sinners are like lost sheep," the sheep are metaphorical (technically a simile since it uses "like" or "as.") If God says, "Your sins and my justice are like a closed book that you don't want to read--the reader says, 'It's closed and I can't open it,' and the one who can't read says, 'I don't know how!," it's easy to see that that is metaphorical, an illustration of the way of sin in people's hearts.

On the other hand, the prophecy to Moses that you mentioned is clearly a prophecy of the future. It's not hard to tell the difference between Moses prophecy you mentioned and this passage from Isaiah, I don't think. Just as it's not hard to tell the difference between the Parables of Jesus (which are stories) and His predictions of future events.

So, for sure I can see why a Muslim would jump if he read just verse 12 alone and say, "My God, this is clearly Mohammed!" Unfortunately, it doesn't fit with the rest of the chapter if you read the whole thing...

I am content for you to believe that the Quran is superior and I won't dispute about it as I've said. I don't agree, but that's okay. And you are certainly right that the Bible is a very different kind of book...

wudjab

03-11-06, 02:42 AM

Why not change the title of the topic ?

It certainly is no longer a Friendly Debate.

Would love to say 'told you so' but I won't.

Haroundb

03-11-06, 08:57 AM

Why not change the title of the topic ?

It certainly is no longer a Friendly Debate.

Would love to say 'told you so' but I won't.
Do you see any guns in my pockets? What I am discussing is simply agressive in meaning not in emotions. I am smiling now:) and also in many posts I was smiling:) to read your reply and Jeff and the others:) . So don't think too much about being hard in discussion as "not friendly" as far as we are discussing in a respectful manner.

Haroundb

03-11-06, 10:29 AM

I certainly don't think that everything in the Bible is metaphor. But if God says, "You sinners are like lost sheep," the sheep are metaphorical (technically a simile since it uses "like" or "as.") If God says, "Your sins and my justice are like a closed book that you don't want to read--the reader says, 'It's closed and I can't open it,' and the one who can't read says, 'I don't know how!," it's easy to see that that is metaphorical, an illustration of the way of sin in people's hearts.

Jeff, that is not what God said…
12: And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.
God used "the book" instead of "a book", and as you a native speaker of English Language you would be better describe for us the difference between "the" and "a". What is the difference between these two articles?

English has two articles: the and a/an. The is used to refer to specific or particular nouns; a/an is used to modify non-specific or non-particular nouns. We call the the definite article and a/an the indefinite article.

the = definite article

a/an = indefinite article

For example, if I say, "Let's read the book," I mean a specific book. If I say, "Let's read a book," I mean any book rather than a specific book.

Here's another way to explain it: The is used to refer to a specific or particular member of a group. For example, "I just saw the most popular movie of the year." There are many movies, but only one particular movie is the most popular. Therefore, we use the.

Source:
http://owl.english.purdue.edu/owl/resource/540/01/ (http://owl.english.purdue.edu/owl/resource/540/01/)
(Even the site used the word "book" in its examples!) :)

So, for sure I can see why a Muslim would jump if he read just verse 12 alone and say, "My God, this is clearly Mohammed!" Unfortunately, it doesn't fit with the rest of the chapter if you read the whole thing...

I would be very glad if you read my explanation post again. As I said, verse 12 fits very will with the rest of the chapter. For the sake of clearance, I will explain it again in another way:

9: Stay yourselves, and wonder; cry ye out, and cry: they are drunken, but not with wine; they stagger, but not with strong drink.
The Jews have closed their mind to God's words. They won't understand anything said to them.

10: For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.
God punished them for their insistence on denying the truth, by closing their brains and the brains of their prophets, so they won't be able to understand the book and teach the people anymore.

11: And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed:
This is when all of them came to you to read for them that book which is written in a language that no one of them can read (Arabic), the book then is (sealed), so when they gave to someone who is learned and have knowledge,he couldn't read it since it is in Arabic which he can't read which is (The Holy Quran).

12: And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.
Then the book (Quran) is delivered to Prophet Mohammad to read, but he said I can't read because I am not learned. And this is exactly what prophet Mohammad described when he was in the cave of Heraa, when Archangel Gabriel ordered him to "read" and he said that I am not a one who reads "unlearned".

13: Wherefore the Lord said, For as much as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:
This is where people deceived themselves and tried to deceive God by saying what is not inside their hearts.

Doesn't this seem logical to you? I think this is more logical interpretation that the one you are giving?

I am content for you to believe that the Quran is superior and I won't dispute about it as I've said. I don't agree, but that's okay. And you are certainly right that the Bible is a very different kind of book...

It is not about superior and inferior, it is about the authentication, Quran is very authenticated, while the Bible is highly not!

Haroundb

03-11-06, 10:56 AM

Jeff

03-11-06, 03:55 PM

No, Haroundb, your explanation about "the" is wrong.

"The" just indicates that the "book" in question is the same one referred to before. That means specifically, the one referred to in verse 11.

Like this. "He will give Sam a dog. The dog will be black." Which dog? The dog that was mentioned before, the one he was going to give to Sam. Sorry, but this is just how English works.

So, an imaginary book is mentioned in verse 11. That imaginary book is given to a reader in verse 11 and the same imaginary book is given to a non-reader in verse 12. When it says "the" book in verse 12, it just means that it's the same imaginary book mentioned before. It's all very simple--unless you are determined to make it say what you want it to say.

I mean, after all, your reading means that God is giving an imaginary book in verse 11 and then suddenly he's giving a real book that He hasn't mentioned before to a real prophet that he hasn't mentioned before in verse 12! Very silly reading! It has no sensible connection to what came before. :p

I think if you would try some newer translations that are easier to follow, you would see more clearly than reading something written in Shakespeare's language.

But if the Bible is "unauthenticated", I don't know why you are worried about it!

***

In terms of witnessing to the Truth (as you understand it), you might want to consider the "overdose effect." If you keep shouting something at somebody, whether it's true or not, after a while, naturally, they stop listening. On the other hand, if you wait for the right moment, when someone is being led in the direction you want, sometimes you have a better chance to be heard! If you just keep insisting on something over and over, people begin to feel like they do when some salesman wants them to buy something and tells them over and over, "Buy this! It's great! You won't be sorry! You can't make a mistake!" It doesn't matter how good your product is, people will not be inclined to buy it if you hound them.

Anyway, as I've said before, it's all lost on me. I've heard it all before many, many times and what you guys say doesn't seem true or convincing to me. So, I don't accept it. And every time I go through these debates, I am more convinced than ever that Christianity is true.

Don't worry though, I know it's hard to hold back when you are enthusiastic about something! I understand that you mean well...and I appreciate it. So, I will not fight with you even if Wudjab wants me to! :p And when I come to Oman or you come to America, we will have that coffee together and talk of many things as brothers... And surely we will pray for each other!

I'm content to let you have the last word on this prophecy issue. My feeling is that there is room for genuine disagreement about the Moses prophecy. There is room for genuine disagreement about "I AM". But there is no room at all for genuine disagreement about Isaiah. It's a slam dunk: I'm right, you're wrong. Nothing about any prophet there.

Still, you disagree! Oh, well, what can I do? I can't convince you! :p So, I'll just let anyone interested in reading the thread make up their own minds... I don't think a Muslim has to feel that this Isaiah passage refers to Mohammed anyway. If it's an imaginary book and two imaginary guys and no prophecy of Mohammed there, Islam still stands.

This is my argument with some people of my religion and culture on Sabla. Sometimes they seem to want to use all the arguments possible, good or bad, when arguing against the Muslims! But if you use the bad arguments, then people will dismiss the good ones, too. So you end up defeating yourself.

There are many stronger arguments that Muslims have than this Isaiah argument. Better to let it go than to make all the arguments seem bad because you stick to one that doesn't work. I see how it's disappointing to let go of something that seemed exciting and promising in the beginning. But that's how life is sometimes...

Jeff

03-11-06, 04:20 PM

You know why I keep trying to prove you wrong Jeff?

Because Quran is telling me "literarily" that Christians do know. Jeff, God is telling me that you know and you keep denying it, whom you think I should belive?

[The Holy Quran 7:157]
"Those who follow the apostle, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures),- in the law and the Gospel;- for he commands them what is just and forbids them what is evil; he allows them as lawful what is good (and pure) and prohibits them from what is bad (and impure); He releases them from their heavy burdens and from the yokes that are upon them. So it is those who believe in him, honour him, help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him,- it is they who will prosper."

Some points:

1. Where does this passage say that Christians "know and won't admit it"? It just seems to me to say that Christians will prosper because they follow Jesus. I agree with that! And I like the quotation from Christ, "Come to me all you who are tired and heavily burdened and I will give you Peace. For my yoke it easy and my burden is light." My yoke and my burden. Not God's. Funny way for a Prophet to talk! ;)

I know of one Muslim who says he was convinced of the truth of Christianity by reading the Quran. Beautiful passages like this help me understand what he means!

2. If we "know and won't admit it," why bother explaining to us? We are liars and deceivers, I think! Better to just warn us and be quiet. Explaining is for people who truly don't understand. I don't waste my time arguing with liars, I just don't talk to them.

3. What would you do if someone accused you of being a liar and still wanted to debate with you? Well, I don't know about you, but most people would react by just not talking to the accuser any more, right? How would you react if someone said, "Haroundb, you are a thief. I know it and I won't listen to any excuses. You stole $100 from me. Let me argue with you and prove it to you."

4. Look, I don't mind what you call me because I believe you are trying to be faithful to the truth, so I let all that stuff pass. I think I see your heart and it is a good one. But Wudjab has a point, doesn't he? How can it be "friendly" if you are going to call people liars and then ask them to debate? Is it a surprise if not many will debate with you? It doesn't prove you are right; it just proves that people won't talk with you if you insult them, hmmm?

Think about it. Even if you believe in your heart that we are dishonest, better not to tell us if you want to talk with us!

I think if you believe what you say, maybe Ice Tea's approach is a better one. He debates a little bit, but then he simply quotes the Quran and then he leaves. He has put out the message of the Truth as he understands it, he has given a warning. And then he leaves the rest to God.

Haroundb

03-11-06, 06:55 PM

11: And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed:

12: And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.

Reading about "a" book in verse 11, since it is the first instance mentioning it, would certainly be for the first time, like; [1][B]"a man talked to me".The next time I am not going to adress him again with "a". I will say [2]"the man told me he knows about it". In verse 12 it is "the" book, which is sealed, since it is in the language that they can't read "Arabic".

---------------------------------------------------------------
This is the text:

11: And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed:

12: And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.

[B]This is the senario:

All the people were looking at the prophet for answers, all in great attention to know what is inside the book that no one understand (sealed). When they rushed to the man who have knowledge of languages, and he gave then no answer and said "I can't read it people, it is not of a language that I know"(sealed).

Then time pass, and future come, and the camera is now on the cave where Mohammad the Arabic speaking man who doesn't know how to read or write, sitting now in the cave looking at the skies searching for answers for his questions about who created this world. The Holly Angle come to Mohammad Son Of Abdullah hugging him very hard, telling him "read", Mohammad doesn't know how to read, and don't know to read what? So he answers confirmingly "I am not learned, I can't read". Now the book is delivered to the one who knows the language "Arabic" but doesn't know to read. God will teach him the "Book", which is not sealed anymore.
---------------------------------------------------------------

As you can see it is very logical, so it is very much working, and I am not disappointed that you "think" you are right, because I am "sure" that I am right! Keep telling me it is impossible, it can't be, and verify with little logic of yours what I verify with great logic. You take it light explained, where I take it deep. I guess I hold an advantage of reading the words of "GOD" where you are simply taking the disadvantage of reading the words of "Modern Translators" who took charge of putting the meanings of such highly comprehensive text to trival "Kids Story Book". This is the deviation our God Allah told us "literarily" that Christians will do:

[13]But because of their breach of their covenant, We cursed them, and made their hearts grow hard; they change the words from their (right) places and forget a good part of the message that was sent them, nor wilt thou cease to find them- barring a few - ever bent on (new) deceits: but forgive them, and overlook (their misdeeds): for Allah loveth those who are kind
[Quran: 5-13]

Haroundb

03-11-06, 07:15 PM

Some points:

1. Where does this passage say that Christians "know and won't admit it"? It just seems to me to say that Christians will prosper because they follow Jesus. I agree with that! And I like the quotation from Christ, "Come to me all you who are tired and heavily burdened and I will give you Peace. For my yoke it easy and my burden is light." My yoke and my burden. Not God's. Funny way for a Prophet to talk! ;)

I know of one Muslim who says he was convinced of the truth of Christianity by reading the Quran. Beautiful passages like this help me understand what he means!

2. If we "know and won't admit it," why bother explaining to us? We are liars and deceivers, I think! Better to just warn us and be quiet. Explaining is for people who truly don't understand. I don't waste my time arguing with liars, I just don't talk to them.

3. What would you do if someone accused you of being a liar and still wanted to debate with you? Well, I don't know about you, but most people would react by just not talking to the accuser any more, right? How would you react if someone said, "Haroundb, you are a thief. I know it and I won't listen to any excuses. You stole $100 from me. Let me argue with you and prove it to you."

4. Look, I don't mind what you call me because I believe you are trying to be faithful to the truth, so I let all that stuff pass. I think I see your heart and it is a good one. But Wudjab has a point, doesn't he? How can it be "friendly" if you are going to call people liars and then ask them to debate? Is it a surprise if not many will debate with you? It doesn't prove you are right; it just proves that people won't talk with you if you insult them, hmmm?

Think about it. Even if you believe in your heart that we are dishonest, better not to tell us if you want to talk with us!

I think if you believe what you say, maybe Ice Tea's approach is a better one. He debates a little bit, but then he simply quotes the Quran and then he leaves. He has put out the message of the Truth as he understands it, he has given a warning. And then he leaves the rest to God.
Your want to find a way that I offended you, I never said you are lier? Did I? You won't convince anyone that I am attacking you, still you may need a way to prove it but you won't find it because I don't offend anyone. I respect you and I respect myself.

I know that Americans are so much sensitive to "words" and they dig alot to find "where this mand did offend me"! So I don't really care much for that point. I know this is a nature in them, they just can't help it! Sure Jeff you are not an exception. Whenever I speak about your mistake, you directly find a word in your dictionary that fits to whoever hears that I am offending you, and you are the GOOD & I am the BAD. Still you take courtesy forgiving my sins and mistakes to you which I think are nothing at all of what you want them to be.

We are mature people, discussing an important subject, I think it is wise not to get childish discussions about it, since I am not a simple minded person who will get confused with such an approach.

Something else, stop mentioning wudjab's point of view and attitudes, because he doesn't have any...He is just desperately waiting for the moment this thread it locked, or things to get missed up, I know that he has no benefit from this, nor he will be happy to find that I am speaking anything logical. He keeps jumping with the friendly thing every now and then to kill the authentication of the thread and get it locked by the mods.

Again don't think that the 'dialoguing' you are practicing every now and then with wudjab does just make me believe that you are wise and he is mad. This dialoguing is very obvious to me and sure to anyone have eyes and a brain.

wudjab

04-11-06, 12:21 AM

Why don't you just give it a rest ? Your endless tirades are becoming boring and tedious, even to someone as patient as Jeff.

And if you think you haven't been rude and offensive to Jeff, you are blinder than you think.

Haroundb

04-11-06, 12:28 AM

Why don't you just give it a rest ? Your endless tirades are becoming boring and tedious, even to someone as patient as Jeff.

OK, I will consider that.

And if you think you haven't been rude and offensive to Jeff, you are blinder than you think.
If he also think so, then I owe him an apology, thanks for telling me wudjab.

Kara

04-11-06, 09:36 AM

You have to understand the language of the Tanakh which I don't believe you do because you reject the metaphor. And metaphors are used regularly.

Just stick to the Quran, Haroundb because all this is way above your head.

Haroundb

04-11-06, 10:07 AM

You have to understand the language of the Tanakh which I don't believe you do because you reject the metaphor. And metaphors are used regularly.

Arabic language is the most sophisticated language in the manner of metaphors and similations of speech. I know well what you and Jeff are talking about, but what you are saying is "someone's" interpretation to what is written in the script not what God has signed on its correctness.

Again I did reject the metaphor because it is deviation from the truth, and the only way to close your eyes on the very clear truth. I was thinking that someone may get to the truth if he opened his eyes but I was totally wrong, it is not the eyes that is sealed, it is the hearts!

Sure thing a book metaphor is possible in the text under debat, I am not dump not to understand this. On the other side, your problem & Jeff is that you don't want to belive what I am saying just because it will put you in trouble with your conscience, since the best way to avoid being accused is either to deny doing a mistake or denying the mistake itself.

My side I am not going to get paid if you are convinced with my point of view, neiether I will lose anything if you completely refused. It is you who have a serious problem with your "basic" believes which for sure not an easy thing to go through. Sure you have been taught that this is a metaphor as this is the only way to get from the tight trap the Bible breachers found themselves in. So do'nt worry, because there will come a generation after you, who will get the truth and be guided accordingly.

You are the one who will win or lose, but for me it is just an coast-free effort to guide the misleader folk of sheep straying in the bewilderment. God bless you.

...Just stick to the Quran, Haroundb because all this is way above your head.
I think you are mistaken about this, because whoever holds Quran in his hand won't find it difficult to hold any other book on this earth. And my head is high very high, not because I am a cleaver man, but because God has gave me a sound heart!

I knwo that the word "sound heart" have no meaning to you, but for your information it is a metaphor meaning I have a clear mind not spoiled by fake interpretations taught by those who want you and the other to stay in the darkness forever!

I hope you understand what I am talking about because I highly doubt it.