View Full Version : The Pope and Islam--Religion, not Just Politics
Does Pope Benedict think that Islam is inherently a religion of violence? Here is what he said just a few days before the lecture everyone is talking about:
"Demonstrations of violence cannot be attributed to religion as such but to the cultural limitations with which it is lived and develops in time..."
In other words, Islam itself is not violent, nor is Christianity. It is rather the limitations or problems of some of the believers or those who claim to be believers in the religions that causes the violence. Agree or disagree?
Does Pope Benedict think that making fun of or mocking Islam or its Prophet or anything else associated with God or the sacred is okay? 'It was he who, before the religious fervor of Muslim believers, warned secularized Western culture to guard against "the contempt for God and the cynicism that considers mockery of the sacred to be an exercise of freedom".'
In other words, in the late cartoon controversy, the Pope told people in the West that they should make sure they didn't confuse "freedom of the press" with mocking things that are holy. And he told them that particularly because he understood the outrage that Muslims felt. Do you think that was good or not?
In this last lecture that is so much in the news, when the Pope quoted harsh words about Islam, did he do that because he agreed with them?
"As for the opinion of the Byzantine emperor Manuel II Paleologus which he quoted during his Regensburg talk, the Holy Father did not mean, nor does he mean, to make that opinion his own in any way."
The Pope quoted the emperor, not because he thought he was correct, but because the Emperor's impression is one that many people in the West share today and he wanted to invite ANSWERS. Answers from secularists, answers from Christians, answers from Muslims. In fact, he points out that the accusation that Faith is Irrational is one of the chief problems of the modern world...one which all Believers have to try to address.
Anybody still reading? sigh...probably not.
But I think that we can all agree on one thing: the media manipulate all of us and they like to get us fighting because then they have some good stories to put in the newspapers. Whether what the Pope said was good or bad, let's talk about it like people that have free minds. The people who benefit from the fighting are the atheists and the materialists, not us.
Let's try for a RELIGIOUS discussion, not a POLITICAL one.
Well, okay, even if nobody replies to this....I put it here. A little drop to disappear in the ocean if nothing else. And my prayers are that we will worry when our brothers and sisters are hurt in their religious sensibilities. When Muslims are hurt by something Catholics say or do about Islam or the Prophet, I think we should worry about it. When Catholics are hurt by statements Muslims make about the Pope, I ask in friendship that you, my wonderful Muslim friends, consider that. Let's all hold off our anger and remember two things: The Great God above all Who listens to all we say--and--our brothers and sisters on this earth who are struggling to serve Him.
*** Source for quotations:
http://whispersintheloggia.blogspot.com/2006/09/official-text-pope-sincerely-regrets.html
Thank you for clarifying that Jeff and I swear, I read it all the way :p
I think the problem is that the media takes things out of context and encourages confusion and misunderstanding [at least then they've something to report as well as satisfying their agenda of fueling hatred between Muslims and the west].
In other words, Islam itself is not violent, nor is Christianity. It is rather the limitations or problems of some of the believers or those who claim to be believers in the religions that causes the violence. Agree or disagree?
I definitely agree, however, if he wanted to balance it out, he should have said something similar about the Bush administration when he said something on the lines, that God told him to invade Iraq. The pope should have disapproved of his actions, I think only then, the Muslims might be okay with his honest opinion of Islam and terrorists abusing the name of Islam.
This discussion is bound to be political, what religious explanations are you looking for Jeff? There is no religious confusion there or anything of that sort or do you want verses which show that Islam is all about peace etc...If so, I would rather you construct questions as to direct the members to which direction the thread should take. That would be appreciated.
The Pope at the time DID disapprove of Bush's actions and did so publicly, LYM. And the present Pope publicly agreed with that one at the time. Both of them were very clear and critical of the decision to invade Iraq.
Please feel free to edit or remove the post if it's a poor one. It's a difficult topic to write about--for me anyway--and I'm sure I didn't do it very well. But at the same time, I was hoping to leave the conversation a bit open just for reflections on the topic...
No no, the thread did clarify, but I think I will wait to see what direction the thread takes, if it's more religious than politics, it would stay here, if not, I will move it to politics. That's all :)
Thanks a lot Jeff. I think this is one of the longest posts I actually read :p
This makes a lot of sense and I hope all of it is true. But honestly, it is difficult to believe that all of it is true.
Not only the Western media, but also the Arab media, have continuosly been reporting about the "insulting" statements made by the Pope. Not only this, but even many governments have been demanding an apology!
Does this mean the whole world misunderstood his speech? Or is the Vatican along with the Pope backing away?
Either way, in my honest view, the Pope had problems with his communicational skills, atleast during this speech, and as a result, the biased Western media, which is hungry for any anti-Islamic news, exegerrated the whole issue in order to misrepresent Islam and Muslims to the ignorant Westerners so their governments attain more and more support for killing more innocent Arabs and Muslims. And perhaps, invading new Arab countries!
Well, STING, I can't tell you how happy your reply makes me! I don't expect you to just believe me, of course, but I just wanted to introduce another way of looking at it.
You've seen a little bit of the way I approach things here and I can tell you that one of my great inspirations for it has been Joseph Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict XVI. I've been watching him closely for years and reading all his books, so for me it's like watching someone you know and love be completely misunderstood. I just don't have the heart to get into the back-and-forth on the Desert Sloath and Wudjab threads, it's too discouraging, but I wanted to say something.
At any rate, all I hope for is an open mind, and I think you have that. Thanks for your generous reaction.
sheik-al-Tort
18-09-06, 08:52 PM
By definition anyone from a different religion will not hold the same views of those who believe their particular religion is the true path.
We must all learn to listen rather than react with over indulgent sensitivity.
That's not a bad statement, Sheik. But we must also learn not to overreact in our turn if others overreact or misunderstand. I would suggest that Catholics especially are called to this.
Desert_Sloath
18-09-06, 10:18 PM
That's not a bad statement, Sheik. But we must also learn not to overreact in our turn if others overreact or misunderstand. I would suggest that Catholics especially are called to this.
Am just posting this link to share with the rest of members here:
Link: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14866559/site/newsweek/?GT1=8506
gee`mee`my :candy:
Desert_Sloath
18-09-06, 10:47 PM
There is no excusing it. There is no understanding it.
But there may be something healthy in it.
There is no way of knowing why a Holy Father would say such a thing. There is no conceivable advantage in a Pontiff who preaches respect for the symbols and sensitivities of other faiths, to cite the statement - even as he distanced himself from it - "Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached."
Here, after all, is the man who less than a year ago, issued an eloquent condemnation of the Danish Mohammed cartoons. Here is the Pope who said "the Catholic Church continues convinced that, to foster peace and understanding between peoples and men, it is necessary and urgent that religions and their symbols be respected".
There is no way of explaining why the Holy See, having sparked Muslim ire worldwide, and having already decided to issue an unprecedented apology, would content himself with an expression of regret worthy of the most Polish of Jewish mothers, the equivalent of "What kind of person reacts this way to things like what I said?"
Unless, somewhere inside, he meant what he said in the first place.
A senior official of the Islamic Movement in Israel said Sunday that all the Pope had to do to end the affair was to say two words, "I apologize."
But Yitzhak Minervi, a former Israeli envoy to the Vatican and an authority on papal relations with other faiths, said the Pontiff was unlikely to take any such step.
"The man has a clear line, a firm stance toward fundamentalist Islam, he rules out in its entirety violence based on religion, and this is the message that he wants sounded clearly in Europe."
"He's no fool. I assume that he foresaw exactly what the results and the reactions would be."
The Church, meanwhile, knows exactly how bad this is. In a remarkable use of a Hebrew expression unusually reserved for suicide bomb masterminds who inadvertently blow themselves up, Franciscan Friar David Jaeger said of the current affair "It's clear that there was a work accident here."
"It was a very serious sort of work accident," Jaeger told Israel Radio. "Now the Pope and his people, and the entire church are laboring very hard in order to repair the damage."
On the face of it, no possible good could have come of this.
On closer inspection, however, we all of us have a number of things to learn from this affair, and from a number of other recent instances of a public figure sparking controversy with opinions seldom aired in public.
Take, for example, the case of rightist MK Effi Eitam, who said last week that "We will have to expel the great majority of the Arabs of Judea and Samaria.
Experience showed, Eitam continued, that Israel cannot give up the area of the West Bank. "It is impossible with all of these Arabs, and it is impossible to give up the territory. We've already seen what they're doing there."
Turning to the subject of Israeli Arabs, Eitam said, "We will have to take another decision, and that is to sweep the Israeli Arabs from the political system. Here, too, the issues are clear and simple. We've raised a fifth column, a league of traitors of the first rank. Therefore, we cannot continue to enable so large and so hostile a presense within the political system of Israel."
Racist and inflammatory? Certainly. Worth hearing? Absolutely.
All public figures, like all actual human beings, have a little box of horrors squirreled away somewhere. It is full of the horrors that they think in their heart of hearts and only let on to those who are close to them, those, in fact, who think the same.
For public figures, there is something healthy about letting the venom drain. Putting it out in the open, so that people on both sides can discuss it. Lancing the abscess so that, in the process, we can all of us begin to heal.
The modern world has made us experts at a personal form of political correctness, consigning our dark impulses, designs, and views to the securely secreted little box.
It's only natural, this double life of the intellect. We practice it at work, even at home. It keeps us safe. But it also keeps us lying.
Maybe it's time we opened up the little box of horrors inside every one of us. The one full of what we truly believe.
"Hold on," I hear the irate reader protest at this point. "How can you say that, when at the same time you impose censorship on the very people who let it hang out, all of it, all the time?"
Opening the box, in this sense, does not mean simply collecting the venom in order to throw it into the face of those who vex us, annoy us, oppose us, believe in other faiths or political movements.
It does not mean, for example, firebombing churches to defend Islam from charges that it is a religion of violence. It does not mean advocating the wholesale slaughter of Muslims in order to make sure that a Holocaust does not recur.
It means opening the box so that we can examine what's in there, for good and, often, ill. Expose it, for once, to light and air.
And to courage. And to self-esteem.
A large part of having the courage of one's convictions, is a willingness to see how they actually stand up to the other side, in the context of discussion in which both sides listen at least as intently, as they talk.
As equals.
For the rightists among us, courage, in this sense, means examining your own actions and views and fallibilities as critically as you do those of your rivals.
For the leftists among us, self-esteem, in this context, means looking with the same appreciation and understanding of your own side's virtues, as you would those of the other side.
Understanding between peoples who have a history of war going back hundreds of years, begins this way - opening the little box of horrors within each of us.
Not, for once, as weaponry and ammunition, but as the bent mirror urgently in need of repair.
______________________
Borrowed from al-Ha`aretz:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/764193.html
My Views:
Mature discussion there.
.
Thanks so much for contributing to the thread! I thought this would just die and it has ALMOST died, but it's doing a little better than I thought...
Well, Sloath, I would point out that the best refutation of the article is in the article itself:
"There is no way of knowing why a Holy Father would say such a thing. There is no conceivable advantage in a Pontiff who preaches respect for the symbols and sensitivities of other faiths, to cite the statement - even as he distanced himself from it - "Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached."
Here, after all, is the man who less than a year ago, issued an eloquent condemnation of the Danish Mohammed cartoons."
Why would the Pope, who went out of his way to condemn the cartoons, attack Muslims? The only sensible explanation is that it wasn't intended as an attack. His point in the citation was:
1. A Christian emperor facing difficult times automatically looks to REASON when he argues.
2. This shows that Reason and Religious Faith are NOT OPPOSED. The modern world is wrong when it says they are.
3. Violence is unREASONABLE. Truly changing people requires REASON.
Now, I understand why Muslims, reading the Popes citation out of context and magnified by the press, would be upset. And I think the Pope sees it and is genuinely sorry for having offended them. My guess is that he wishes he had used another example.
Well, STING, I can't tell you how happy your reply makes me! I don't expect you to just believe me, of course, but I just wanted to introduce another way of looking at it.
You've seen a little bit of the way I approach things here and I can tell you that one of my great inspirations for it has been Joseph Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict XVI. I've been watching him closely for years and reading all his books, so for me it's like watching someone you know and love be completely misunderstood. I just don't have the heart to get into the back-and-forth on the Desert Sloath and Wudjab threads, it's too discouraging, but I wanted to say something.
At any rate, all I hope for is an open mind, and I think you have that. Thanks for your generous reaction.
Jeff, as I mentioned earlier, I just hope and wish that the Pope's comments were in fact misunderstood. And his recent clarification only confirms that.
But my point is, how come the whole world misderstood him? Don't you think there was something wrong with his choice of words or the logical sequence of his speech?
Its not only the Muslims who misunderstood him. Even Western personalities and entities are questioning his speech!
Anyhow, either way, the damage has been done and all I can say is that I regret it did happen. Lets hope next time the Pope is more careful with his comments so nobody can misinterpret his words.
Thanks Jeff
I think Desert Sloath's posts clarify my point further. In short, if the pope did not mean what we all understood, and I hope this is the fact, lets hope he is more careful next time.
BTW Jeff, after reading your opening post, I understood what the Pope meant, but dont you agree, the way he quoted the Byzantine emperor implied as if the emperor was true, or that he agreed with the emperor?
Did the pope in his speech mention what he though of that quotation? Like for example, whether he agrees or disagrees?
fatamooo
19-09-06, 01:02 AM
Wudjab - I think it's all about how you interpret the speech. Do you think he was using it as an example or do you think he was pointing the finger? After answering that you can clarify if you agree with the pope or not in this area.
Personally, I agree with the pope because the way I read the speech, I can see that he's talking about Muslim extremists who don't know anything except for violence.
If he read the speech in a way that made it sound like ALL muslims are violent people, then of course I would disagree with him. Hate groups can be formed in any religion. The Aryan Nation is a religious group, and all Klansmen are Protestants... but when people say Protestant I would never think racist, bigot or Klansman.
Jeff, as I mentioned earlier, I just hope and wish that the Pope's comments were in fact misunderstood. And his recent clarification only confirms that.
But my point is, how come the whole world misderstood him? Don't you think there was something wrong with his choice of words or the logical sequence of his speech?
Its not only the Muslims who misunderstood him. Even Western personalities and entities are questioning his speech!
Anyhow, either way, the damage has been done and all I can say is that I regret it did happen. Lets hope next time the Pope is more careful with his comments so nobody can misinterpret his words.
Thanks Jeff
STING, as usual, I think you make good points.
My reply would partly be that the Pope is not popular among journalists and intellectuals in the West. Remember that the West isn't really Christian like the Muslim world is still Muslim. Most of the dominant people in media and the universities are not religious and they dislike Christianity and especially Catholicism with a passion.
Also: Newspapers and television don't like to write stories like this: "Pope Makes Speech in Which He Mentions Ancient Muslim-Christian Dispute in Passing." They like headlines like this: "Pope Quotes Emperor Criticizing Islam." Because it sells newspapers.
If you read the whole speech, you will see it's a difficult and subtle one. I had to read it about five times before I started to really follow the thread. The Pope is an academic theologian and he was addressing a university audience of mostly Catholic professors.
If you look at Catholic blogs in the early hours, before the newspapers came out, they don't mention Islam. The first reaction among Catholic who follow the Pope closely was: "The Pope gave a great speech on Faith and Reason in today's society. He talked about how Science and Modern Society have come to a dead end and they have misunderstood Religion. Religion will provide the reasonable answers to today's problems." Like that. Catholics didn't read it as an attack on Islam.
Now, unfortunately, many Catholic are responding defensively and criticizing the Muslim reaction. In the process, they are distorting the Pope's intention, too. And I am going on those websites and pointing out where I think they are wrong.
So, nobody will like me...:weep: :p
Seriously, though, I don't ask you to be a lover of the Pope. All I hope for is that you reserve judgment and keep an open mind in the future. And of course, you and many here are criticizing Muslim overreactions such as attacking churches. If Catholics will criticize Catholic overreactions and Muslims will criticize Muslim overreactions, a better world can start to take shape.
STING, as usual, I think you make good points.
My reply would partly be that the Pope is not popular among journalists and intellectuals in the West. Remember that the West isn't really Christian like the Muslim world is still Muslim. Most of the dominant people in media and the universities are not religious and they dislike Christianity and especially Catholicism with a passion.
Jeff, I think that paragraph is the missing link. This explains a lot. And of course, we Muslims know how nice the Western journalists and many intellectuals are.
Anyhow, I think the Pope should arrange some formal communication with Muslims religious leaders at the earliest and clarify his speech. I think this is a must, because even today, in Arabic news channels they mentioned how various Religions leaders were unsatisfied by the Pope's speech.
If the Pope is the type of person you claim, I think he should do his best to solve this issue with the Muslims. One this is done, the Western Media will simply end the whole issue and will have no more excuses to ignite the cross cultural misunderstanding.
And thanks Jeff, your posts are some of the best one can read on this forum.
:)
Thank you EVERYBODY. Nothing makes me happier than this sort of response. Thanks especially to fatamooo and STING. I am proud to call you FRIENDS.
Let me quote the Prophet Dawit:
"Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!"
And the Prophet Issa, whom we Christians confess as Our Lord:
"Blessed are the peacemakers: for they will be called 'God's children.'"
BTW, if anybody wants to see my answer to Wudjab, you can find it in the new thread, "The Emperor's Difficulties." See how panicked and nervous I am! loool
sheik-al-Tort
19-09-06, 01:41 AM
Storm in a tea cup as usual. About time some quarters were less touchy and bothered to think. That was the essence of his speech that God gave us reason, and unreasonable justification for throwing fits is a sign of ignorance.
We had that problem in spades back in the mediaeval period, in Christianity in Europe. Now it's the turn of Islam it seems.
Here's a loyal Catholic who loves the Pope as much as I do criticizing what the Pope said:
"So in the process of taking a detour to say something meant to help break the link between religion and violence, he happened to quote a particularly inflammatory line from 600 years ago that could and has stirred up the potential for religious violence.
And the line isn't even necessary to his speech! He could have made all the same points without the inflammatory line--and even without bringing Islam into the discussion.
This didn't have to have happened, and it is hard not to see it as the first (or second) major gaffe of Benedict's pontificate (the other one being what happened when he visited Auschwitz)."
(And this guy above is more like Wudjab than like me about Muslims... still, he can criticize the Pope's comment...)
http://jimmyakin.typepad.com/defensor_fidei/2006/09/anyone_who_desc.html
And here's a Muslim Imam in France defending the Pope:
"The rector of the Mosque of Aix in Marseilles Mohand Alili thinks his fellow Muslims are making too much of the Regensburg citation.
"The Muslims can't expect that the Pope is going to glorify them. All he did was what a Pope would do," said Alili to France Info.
"Others have said similar things before....Moreover, he's not Muslim, never has been. He's the Pope. What do they want him to do? Why would he preach Islam over Christianity?"
"Benedict XVI," he said, "stands up for who he is. Now why can't Muslims say, '"All right, and this is who we are,' but there's no need to go into all the polemics."
"Besides, I don't see why they should be taking it out on the Pope when they should have it out among themselves, among those who have discredited Islam. No, I don't see why I should be angry at the Pope.""
http://freeforumzone.leonardo.it/viewmessaggi.aspx?f=65482&idd=431&p=51
It IS possible to discuss and think beyond just the loud noises from the world around us. Let's continue to do it as much as we can.
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