Pope Benedict made some remarks regarding Islam during his visit to Bavaria.

This has enraged moslems who are demanding an aplolgy and are threatening violence.

Apparently moslems believe they already control the world and what people can and cannot say.

Obviously they have never understood the concept of rational discussion.

And finally, the paradox is that they threaten violence due to the fact that the Popes comments concerned Islam and violence !

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=405429&in_page_id=1811

I posted a few personal comments, I did not copy from a web site, so I did not provide a link.

However, you DD are the boss, so heres one for you.

I think i .no. - - - reason why Pope is mixing Islam in his speach. He is scared of muslim countries that are getting closer to judaism. He is envying such relationship. Correct ?



.geee`me``me` candy

Because he was discussing Religion, God and Reason.

A most difficult concept for you to wrap your mind around, I am sure.

no sweets for you.

And finally, the paradox is that they threaten violence due to the fact that the Popes comments concerned Islam and violence !

Same as those ignorant Muslims who are complaining, I dnt think you understood what he said, try again
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/speeches/2006/september/documents/hf_ben-xvi_spe_20060912_university-regensburg_en.html

And before you start singing the old good song of Islam spread by sword, I'll say that is an undeniable historical truth i agree with and which is not a problem for me

Point is, that what the Pope meant, that using Islam same as the terrorists do, is contrary to our religion and opposite to God

Now to be impartial i have to say that being used to the old foxy Cardinal Ratzinger, am sure he dsnt like Islam and Muslims at all but he is not so stupid to do such a mistake in this delicate moment

Same as those ignorant Muslims who are complaining, I dnt think you understood what he said, try again
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/speeches/2006/september/documents/hf_ben-xvi_spe_20060912_university-regensburg_en.html

And before you start singing the old good song of Islam spread by sword, I'll say that is an undeniable historical truth i agree with and which is not a problem for me

Point is, that what the Pope meant, that using Islam same as the terrorists do, is contrary to our religion and opposite to God

Now to be impartial i have to say that being used to the old foxy Cardinal Ratzinger, am sure he dsnt like Islam and Muslims at all but he is not so stupid to do such a mistake in this delicate moment

Exactly; that is the Pope's point. As an addition, why not look in your own backyard first. It's good to start with those people who chant, "Death to America!" I am sure such cries are far more harmful than what the Holy Father pointed out. His point isn't against Islam, though he used Islam in that context as a point against Islamic extremists. In short, he was singling out those extremists. Of course, he used that example as a means to convey his message to them, in order to give it an historical persective.

This is my favourite.

Anyone who describes Islam as a religion as intolerant encourages violence," [Pakistani] Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Tasnim Aslam said.

ergo

Don't say we are violent or we will become violent.

This is another, spot on, analysis I read on a different blog :

Part of the credit for this needs to be laid at the feet of the media, who took a couple of lines out of a very thoughtful talk and blared "Pope Slams Islam". They knew perfectly well the effect it would have.

Meanwhile, we get delightful vituperations like this:

Muhammad Umar, chairman of the foundation, said: "This attack on Islam and Prophet Muhammad by Pope Benedict is recognition that he has fallen into the trap of the bigots and racists when it comes to judging Islam on the actions of a small number of extreme elements."

The quote he was reacting to is this:

"The emperor comes to speak about the issue of jihad, holy war," the Pope said.

"He said, I quote, 'Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached'."

What is fascinating is how Umar has learned to exploit the guilty obsession of the West when it comes to race, since there is manifestly *nothing* to do with race in the quote. Beyond that, it is fascinating to see the guy try to pretend that all of Northern Africa, Spain, the whole of the Christian East to the gates of Vienna, and the Mediterranean as far as Lepanto were conquered by a small number of extreme elements.

The supreme irony, of course, is that the Pope main point was that a religion which is not in harmony with reason, which believes in a God who can contradict himself in the capricious exercise of Supreme Power, and which rules and converts by means of violence, is a religion that cannot, in the end, either survive or be true. He was speaking there, not simply or even primarily of Islam, but of the post-modern relativistic West which has likewise abandoned both faith and reason. If the Islamists would use their heads, they would see a powerful critique of the Great Satan in the words of the Pope. But when you abandon faith and reason, whether in the East or the West, that sin makes you stupid: stupid enough to print simplistic headlines that inflame Islamists and stupid enough to have hysterics and threaten yet again because your brittle little religion can't hold up to some questions and criticism.

Wudjab, I'm going to stay my hand. This is your thread and I don't want to give you a hard time on it. But could you give a source for your quote?

I personally think the Pope is at those "little religions" ! if you see what I mean. He sees "little religions" eating up his empire and then don't develope fully to bigger organisations - They just leave the main church and go astray such as into ignotism etc etc. Is he touching on Anglican or those churches croping up in the west ? The new born for example who are being spread out through the world being financed by American money via the Danish Church ?
I need to learn more about Pope's worries. Do you think there is an encrochment on his empire in Europe by these "little religions" from America ?
You must have heard of the Kingdom Church of God for egyzampo ? May be Pope is facing some kind of a problem for the good old House.


As a muslim. Wallahy i am comfortable

.

He has been misquoted, but to be fair it makes little difference given the rest of his speech which I actually have difficulty in following

Is it because he is German?

Edited --- Useless, who cares for Muslims?

He has been misquoted, but to be fair it makes little difference given the rest of his speech which I actually have difficulty in following

Is it because he is German?

A man in that position ??? Misquoted !!! I dont think so .. But after all thats how he believe and he is entitled .. Why should we bother ?

Sorry DP but he actually has been misquoted - he was actually trying to say that religions nowadays should be more tolerant of each other, and quoting the mediaeval king as an example of what not to do.

It's all irrelevant rubbish of course - the outcry from Islamics is political not religious.

Did anone read the speech ?

It wasn't about Islam. The press has selectively take one line out of 10 pages of text, as if that is what the speech was about.

On the other hand, the Pope was addressing academics at an university. Since when is it forbidden to talk of certain things under threat of violence ?

Wrong timing that is wudjab .. I mean fine he said it but the Press is as usual stir things up for some !!

The press is the culprit.

I just read a AFP headline that said "Pope relaxes after slamming moslems".

I have opened a thread called Press and the Media and would love to read your honest comments ...

Didn't take long.

Assailants angry at Pope Benedict XVI's comments on Islam targeted several churches across the Palestinian territories on the second day of attacks directed at the Christian church....

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060916/wl_mideast_afp/vaticanpopeislampalestinianunrestchurch

Now that is stupid to open fire at Nebulous Christian church.......... As I said Media could be a tool of destruction to the unqualified Muslims ( I call them unqualified Muslims )

You like takin things out of context, huh?
I'm a Muslim, and I don't find anything offensive in that - but when I read the thread's first post, I was shocked and on my way to getting offended, till I actually read the speech. Well, the part that mentioned Islam at least.

1. To whom is that post directed ?
2. What is out of context ?

I think all Western (Christian) leaders need to go back to school and take some lectures about globalization, cross-cultural communication and English. Only if these leaders learn these basic skills, which they apparently lack, world will be a better place.

Ignorant leaders are very dangerous. Specially when they have ignorant followers.

Of course, I still hope, the Pope did not mean what the news agencies reported.

:)

wudjab: Its suprising that you started a thread without providing a source. Awaiting your source. Do edit yoru first post with it.

I hope that this will also now open discussion on how Islam was really spread.

It should be interesting.

This has enraged moslems who are demanding an aplolgy and are threatening violence.
Please be precise. I am a Muslim, and I am not demanding an apology simply because I don't see why something a POPE says should get my attention. For me, he is as any other Christian.


Obviously they have never understood the concept of rational discussion.
Again, who are the they? And who the hell are you to decide whether someone understands something or doesn't?!


And finally, the paradox is that they threaten violence due to the fact that the Popes comments concerned Islam and violence !

And again, who are the they? Be precises. I am a Muslim and so far I have not met a single Muslim who "threatened" the POPE or any Christian for that matter.


However, you DD are the boss, so heres one for you.

How sweet :D

Let's be realistic........there are some muslims who are looking for any excuse to attack the values and morality of the west and it's religions......

In fact the previous pope was shot by a Turkish muslim fanatic........

Muslims can't dictate to anyone what is understood in historical terms by others.......it's most certainly true that in the medevil days....conversions to Islam may have been forced.....or that present day muslims use the concept of "jihad" to serve political means.......

These days muslims must come forward and explain their religion to others in rational terms.......and not let the small minority of fanatical muslims win the day......

I don't think any non muslim would agree that "Islam is a religion of peace".....and why is that? Who is responsible for hijacking this religion and completely tarnishing the principles?

fatak

Thanks to wudjab's biased post, this thread, which would have been a wonderful one, has been going no where. Therefore, I decided to revitalize this thread so we all can benefit something. So forget about all the baseless claims and assumptions made by the thread starter so far and lets look at some interesting points I came across.

To be honest, I had no idea there was a new Pope in office, I thought the Pope was John Paul or something. Anyhow, I came to know that man died recently and Mr. Benedict took his place!

As I mentioned earlier, it makes no difference what a Pope says about any matter, but because of all the fuss in the media, I decided to do some reading on this topic.

I started by enlightening myself about the Pope. And look what I came across!

CLICK HERE (http://www.novusordowatch.org/benedict.htm)

Basically, this website suggests that the current Pope is not supposed to be a Pope in the first place! :mmhmm:

And if that is the case, doesn't all this make him just another dogmatic Christian? Of course, that is if he actually meant to say what he said :os ?

http://www.novusordowatch.org/images/ratzinger2.jpg

What do you guys think?

BTW, whats with the Western leaders nowadays? They keep on saying and doing things that they "don't mean" to say or do! :hyper:

I don't think anyone should give a damn about whatever pops out of this pope's mouth

He is very old & most probably demented

Muslims can't dictate to anyone what is understood in historical terms by others.......it's most certainly true that in the medevil days....conversions to Islam may have been forced.....or that present day muslims use the concept of "jihad" to serve political means.......

fatak

Ok, lets be realistic. I am not old enough as you are to know what happened in the medevil and I am surely not ready to believe the Western historic books. Afterall, when the Bible(s) can be twisted and turned by Kings as per their wish, what ensures the authenticity of any historic book? Specially when not supported by science or logic! :rolleyes:

Anyhow, lets look at the contemporary situation, Islam is spread in the whole world. Excluding the Arabs, there are MILLIONS of Muslims in Southeast Asia, South Asia, Africa, Europe. In fact, the larget Muslim country (as per population) is Indonesia.

My question is simple and direct, how did these millions of non-Arab Muslims end up being Muslims? And if it was by power, why are they still Muslims?

Forget about all this, why are thousands converting to Islam in USA, UK and other Western countries even today despite all the anti-Islamic media?

Now, I hope you and your gang answer these questions REALISTICLY and LOGICALLY :cool:

And remember you guys, don't get emotional. Lets discuss this like adults using facts and logic.

CHILL BABY :cool:

I don't think anyone should give a damn about whatever pops out of this pope's mouth

He is very old & most probably demented

Now you being in the medical field know better about the effects of age on the human brain and general sanity. That is a very good point HITMAN.

A facist he is, A Nazi he is.

Islam was sent to success Christianity. If Islam is all about Terrorism and Violence, then so is Christianity!

Shame on you Facist!

Rossonero, I did not know he was a Nazi! Is that also mentioned in the site I shared in my previous post? I better go look at the site once again ;)

Thanks for the information though :)

You see......good point here......you attack the man, insult him, his religion, his religious books.......

It reminds me of the same crap some christian fanatical groups said about Islam after 9/11.......they attacked the prophet. the holy books etc etc....

Why not just come out and debate what he had to say?

fatak

He's a german aint he? ;)

Btw, The pope's comments will only ignite another Al-Qaeda attack...they shut up about Denmark's stupidity..they wont shut up this time

fatak, no one is attacking the Christian faith, just this man is not qualified to be a pope nor does he have the least knowledge about Islam, perhaps he just wanted some attention before his demise

Oh dear fatak I am so SORRY!

I regret this but trust me, I did not mean to attack and insult him or his books! I am sure you just simply MISUNDERSTOOD me :(

I didn't mean to say that. I regret this misunderstanding!

Is there like an age minimum of being a pope? Why are they all very old? (Off topic q's)...

And anyways how come it's ok for people to insult Muslims but it's not ok for anyone to say a word against Christians - If you don't want people to offend you because of your religious beliefs, then treat ppl the way you wanna be treated. It's not that hard to get your head round it. Simple concept.

Thats a very good and smart Q fatamooo. I am not sure about the minimum age, but from what I have observed so far, I think basically they have to be quite old. Old enough to make senseless comments!

Is there like an age minimum of being a pope? Why are they all very old? (Off topic q's)...

And anyways how come it's ok for people to insult Muslims but it's not ok for anyone to say a word against Christians - If you don't want people to offend you because of your religious beliefs, then treat ppl the way you wanna be treated. It's not that hard to get your head round it. Simple concept.

Because we respect ourselves, and we respect christianity..why should we question christianity and utter words and lower our levels to speak such nonesense?

I think all Western (Christian) leaders need to go back to school and take some lectures about globalization, cross-cultural communication and English. Only if these leaders learn these basic skills, which they apparently lack, world will be a better place.

Yeah, eloquent words, but not surprisingly some Muslims took to bombing churches now; if anything, it only seems have proven the Pope's point. So who should take to going back to school again? As another poster in another board said:

I dunno about you guys, but muslims bash christians everyday, and our pope say one statement and everybody is gearing up for a killing frenzy.

And I agree with that poster: again, some radical Muslims would take to bashing Christians, and Islam doesn't bat an eyelash. The Pope reminds radical Muslims, those radicals go on a bombing frenzy. Again, who needs to go back to school?

Did anone read the speech ?

It wasn't about Islam.

Here's the whole text of his speech: http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/speeches/2006/september/documents/hf_ben-xvi_spe_20060912_university-regensburg_en.html It isn't about Islam, but as the title says, it's all about Faith, Reason and the University Memories and Reflections. Of course, the press took only one part of it without bothering to see or report what he actually said.

Didn't take long.

Assailants angry at Pope Benedict XVI's comments on Islam targeted several churches across the Palestinian territories on the second day of attacks directed at the Christian church....

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060916/wl_mideast_afp/vaticanpopeislampalestinianunrestchurch

Funny how these radicals somehow highlighted the Pope's words with this response. Hhmm...so in order to reply to such a statement, you respond with violence? No better way to prove the speaker's point, even if he didn't intend to make such a point. Again, who's supposed to go back to school, Sting?

Oh dear fatak I am so SORRY!

I regret this but trust me, I did not mean to attack and insult him or his books! I am sure you just simply MISUNDERSTOOD me :(

I didn't mean to say that. I regret this misunderstanding!

Hey.......who stole STING'S NICK, and is writing in his place.......I want the old insulting, take no prisioners STINK back......this new image of sorry this regret that.....is really confusing me.......

Anyway.....I am leaning towards.....what the hell the press is doing?

They should know how sensitive these times are, and we need more understanding between faiths NOT more backstabbing......

fatak

And I agree with that poster: again, some radical Muslims would take to bashing Christians, and Islam doesn't bat an eyelash. The Pope reminds radical Muslims, those radicals go on a bombing frenzy. Again, who needs to go back to school?

Answering your Q, in my view, the Pope does, if and only if, he made those stupid comments.

In fact, I am in my Oracle lecture right now. I would be more than happy to have him here. Enhancing his computer skills might allow him to be more logical :yes:

fatak, I learned that from the Pope :angel:

BTW fatak, will you reply the questions I posed?

some people just can't handle the truth :rolleyes:

Anyway.....I am leaning towards.....what the hell the press is doing?

They should know how sensitive these times are, and we need more understanding between faiths NOT more backstabbing......

fatak

True, but 'understanding' doesn't sell papers :p
'backstabbing' is a certified bestseller at any given time.

The media is to blame for stoking this, provoking the ignorant with out-of-context comments: The people burning effigies and attacking churches are wrong, but they are also the people to whom the context is least likely to be explained. Shame on the media, again.

I don't know if the Pope is a bad dude or not. I'll continue to give him the benefit of the doubt for now - this does not convince me he is a bigot, just because he quoted one.

Islam was in part spread by the sword, particularly in the early days when the first Muslims were persecuted - kill to be Muslim or die to be Muslim was the choice. These days I think you'll find a lot more people embracing Islam because of their own discovery of its virtue, rather than out of fear. Just like Christianity - the Crusaders killed all those who would not convert. The Muslims did not. But these days da3wa or missionary activity seems to be the preferred method of expansion for both belief systems.

Incidentally, both religions inherently promise eternal torment for unbelievers, so theologically speaking, having your head cut off is something of an irrelevance. I'm still glad that's not the arrangement though - I'd much rather read a book.

Islam was in part spread by the sword, particularly in the early days when the first Muslims were persecuted - kill to be Muslim or die to be Muslim was the choice.

That is not even "partly" spreading Islam "by the sword". That was self defense. It is a simple historic fact that during The Prophet's :PBUH: leadership, Muslims did not engage in a single war as an act of aggression.

Indeed, but after the Prophet's :PBUH: death, things were rather different. Anyway, my point is that war has been waged in the name of Islam and in the name of Christianity, so it's a rather odd allegation from a Christian to a Muslim.

Answering your Q, in my view, the Pope does, if and only if, he made those stupid comments.

Yeah, but don't you think that those who responded with violence need to go to school even more? Or let us not go into that; what about those who cry, 'Death to America!" Now, people here know that I have not much love for America, but I have never advocated violence against it. Don't you think such people who say such things deserve more education, or re-education for that matter, than the Pope does?

And finally, a sane Muslim voice: http://monkallover.blogspot.com/2006/09/muslim-commentator-defends-pope.html

Magdi Allam is a leading Muslim commentator in Italy. He has written what I consider to be a major editorial for an Italian national newspaper, "Corriere della Sera". You will find below my probably flawed, non-professional translation of his editorial. The Italian original itself wasn't gramatically perfect. At the end is a link to the editorial (in the original Italian) on the web. (from the link above)

And to quote that editorial (which we have here translated from Italian):

It is desolating and preoccupying to see Muslims who have given life to a unified international front to attack the Pope and demand public apologies. From Bin Laden to the Muslim Brotherhood, from Pakistan to Turkey, from Al Jazeera to Al Arabiya, there has risen anew the widespread and universal alliance that first emerged on the occasion of the events surrounding the cartoons about Mohammed. It testifies, in an unequivocal manner, that the root of the evil is a blind ideology of imperious hatred among Muslims, one that violates the faith and darkens the mind. Why is it that Muslims, especially the so-called moderates, never stand up with similar and as much enthusiasm against the true and perpetual profaners of Islam, the Islamic terrorists who massacre Muslims themselves in the name of the same God, the Islamic extremists who legitimize the destruction of Israel and inculcate faith in the so-called Islamic “martyrdom”, while in the meantime they feel themselves dutybound to promote a sort of Islamic “holy war” against the head of the Catholic Church who legitimately expresses his evaluations concerning Islam, with respect but with just as much clarity about the diversity that naturally exists between the two religions? The considerations referred to by the Pope, citing the Byzantine emperor Manuel Paleologus II, concerning the spread of Islam by the sword, whether on the part of Mohammed within the Arabian Peninsula or on the part of his successors in the rest of the world (with just a few exceptions), are an incontrovertible historical fact. Testimony to the fact comes from the Koran itself and from the reality that the entire Byzantine empire to the East and South of the Mediterranean passed to Islam, plus the successive expansion northward into Europe and eastward into Asia.

(my comments here)--Oh wow, and that's just part of the editorial. Hard-hitting, but brutally frank, and I agree; I highlighted the salient points which I have been posting here as well. Food for thought for those who react instinctively.

Milliardo, let me make one thing clear here. All those who have attacked churches or engaged in any sort of violence as a result of the Pope's statement are a bunch of uneducated morons. Specially tose incidents that occured in the Palestinian lands. I really doubt what faith these people follow.

Anyhow, I am a Muslim and I know Muslims, I will not be surprised if these people who attacked te churches are cheap gangs who were paid a bit of money to misrepresent Muslims.

As for if they should go back to school, I don't think that is a good idea. They will ruin the other students. But if an old person in such a position makes those statement then he/she certainly needs to double check his knowledge.

Anyhow, the case is over, the Pope has apologised and clarified his statement personally. So just calm down and CHILL baby. Otherwise I recommend you join those violent gangs that get paid and destroy churches and engage in senseless activities.

Milliardo, let me make one thing clear here. All those who have attacked churches or engaged in any sort of violence as a result of the Pope's statement are a bunch of uneducated morons.

Ah, so you admit they're uneducated? Now that's a start. So, do you agree then that they need to be re-educated?

But now we've come to that point, what does this show to the world? It is interesting how a fellow Muslim like you made it clear: Why is it that Muslims never stand up with similar and as much enthusiasm against the true and perpetual profaners of Islam, the Islamic terrorists who massacre Muslims themselves in the name of the same God? That is a question worth pondering. There seems to be little outcry against these terrorists who use your faith to advance their aim, yet you would cry over some perceived slight over your faith. I say perceived, because it may or may not be true. As I posted earlier, it's time to clean your own backyard first and see why the perception of the West against Islam is so; it's done by the very people who use your faith to further their aims.
Specially tose incidents that occured in the Palestinian lands. I really doubt what faith these people follow.

I will not be surprised if these people who attacked te churches are cheap gangs who were paid a bit of money to misrepresent Muslims.

That's hard to prove; in any case, the damage has been done, and the actions made only highlighted the Pope's point. It is another point in a long list of points that have yet to be addressed.

Ah, so you admit they're uneducated? Now that's a start. So, do you agree then that they need to be re-educated?

Well honey I think you know me enough and you should already know I don't waste my time reading that long posts from members like you. So keep it short ok? :cool:

Anyhow, I don't know who these people are. As I said, they are gangs of cheap morons at best. And it simply goes against the religion of Islam to attack sacred belongings of any religion.

Anyhow, they might be educated morons at best. And I disagree, they shouldn't be "re-educated". Waste of time you see.

And now, you tell me, who needs to take some lectures in communication courses?

I have a question to non-muslims or just something I am wondering about:

According to the Catholic Church, The Vatican, considers The Pope infallible. If that, Papal Infallibility[+] (http://www.unm.edu/%7Ehumanism/not-infallible.htm), is true, and I believe it is. Does it really mean that The pope is going to apologize honestly for his mistakes regarding his comments on Islam, which in other words means He is not really infallible! And can make mistake in delivering his message to the people. And that's for itself a huge disproof of Catholic's claim of Papal Infallibility? Or Will the Church just refuse to apologize and after 50s-100s years they come back apologizing when it's useless or meaningless to do so? [+ (http://www.religioustolerance.org/pope_apo.htm)].

Note: Replying to the topic, I really don't care about what he said, and it shows he is really ignorant about Islam, and there are many Christians who would have talked about Islam much better than him.

Salam.

[x]

He apologised if he upset Muslims

He did not really apologize.

Still No one Answered me, I want to know if he is infallible as his Church claims or not.

Salam.

[x]

He did not really apologize.

Still No one Answered me, I want to know if he is infallible as his Church claims or not.

Salam.

[x]

The Pope is infallible only when teaching ex cathedra, or from the chair, regarding Faith and morals. I do not think addressing a university assembly constitutes to speaking ex cathedra.

Good try, but still, if what you said is true he would have apologized right after what happened, but he still refuses to admit completely. Instead, he said "I'm sorry that some got offended by what I said" and recently said "I am sorry for misunderstanding what I said about Islam" that doesn't really mean "Sorry for what he said". Moreover, he claims that he was quoting someone else and did not mean it, it's only a comment of someone else. If that's the case then saying for example, "Christians are evils, and oh sorry I am not saying that but quoting what someone else said" is ok. Quotation is mostly used in a context to support it, and that's what he did.

Therefore, I still ask the same question "Is he infallible?"

Salam.

[x]

Why should he aplogize for what he said.

He apologized if your feelings got hurt, but he said nothing wrong.

Good try, but still, if what you said is true he would have apologized right after what happened

No, he doesn't even need to do so. If you read the whole speech, his point is not about Islam or even religious violence; rather, it's if an unreasonable action is compatible with God's nature. He used the passage i quoted somewhere here as a backdrop to illustrate a point. With that in mind, why should be even apologize? He is sorry for the reaction it caused and for misunderstanding him; he however did not retract any of what he said, as given the speech made it is in the context of his speech.

Sorry, You are not answering my question. This discussion is going no where if you don't answer. Everyone knows what he did is not right. And, Yes I have read what he said. To me, qouting the emperor in his speech was to prove a point indirectly related to Islam. What funny & interesting to me is that when someone becomes a pope, all of a sudden he becomes infallible. However, when he was young, he was a nazi soldier, and that to me, hmm, was somehow adventurous in the Russian frontline! and turned to be completely fallible.

Therefore, I'm asking you for the last time "Is he infallible?" If so, Why he is not apologizing openly directly, but trying to say he is right and people did not understand it, using some politics. My main point of the argument is "His Infallibility" because what happened does bring this issue to the front page.

Rephrased what I just said above for Wudjab: I don't care if he apologizes or not, I want to know if he is infallibe or not.


[x]

He did not really apologize.

Still No one Answered me, I want to know if he is infallible as his Church claims or not.

Salam.

[x]

no human is infallible.

Good try, but still, if what you said is true he would have apologized right after what happened, but he still refuses to admit completely. Instead, he said "I'm sorry that some got offended by what I said" and recently said "I am sorry for misunderstanding what I said about Islam" that doesn't really mean "Sorry for what he said". Moreover, he claims that he was quoting someone else and did not mean it, it's only a comment of someone else. If that's the case then saying for example, "Christians are evils, and oh sorry I am not saying that but quoting what someone else said" is ok. Quotation is mostly used in a context to support it, and that's what he did.

Therefore, I still ask the same question "Is he infallible?"

Salam.

[x]

Why does he have to apologize?

The world is getting sick and tired of trying not to offend the sensitive muslims. Who cares what they think? do they care what i think? Of course not.

You obviously missed Milo's post.

The Pope is infallible only when teaching ex cathedra, or from the chair, regarding Faith and morals. I do not think addressing a university assembly constitutes to speaking ex cathedra.

[QUOTE=nezitiC]What funny & interesting to me is that when someone becomes a pope, all of a sudden he becomes infallible. However, when he was young, he was a nazi soldier, and that to me, hmm, was somehow adventurous in the Russian frontline! and turned to be completely fallible.

This infallibility is owed to Peter, since the Pope succeeds in what Peter did. Note that the bishops and priests as well share in this infallibility with the Pope when teaching in faith and morals. Now, I have answered that question quite a few times. If you're asking is he infallible in the sense that he is completely set apart from other humans, of course the answer is no. But the question is, was he speaking ex cathedra when he delivered that speech? I don't think he is.

Apparently, he apologized for what he said, made a remark that he was quoting something else and it wasn't his view.

I'm not Catholic, so I don't feel the same way about the Pope as other people do. Maybe because I'm not Catholic, I get bugged by all the big budget attention the Pope gets. For example: all the media attention at the time of the death of John Paul and the selection of the new one. I don't see the Pope as a world leader although some people do.

What I feel though doesn't matter when someone had to die about something he said. No matter what religion, I can't tolerate violent reactions to misunderstanding. (I'm going to excuse myself because I don't know exactly what he said or who he was supposed to be quoting.)

In the end, we should care about what someone says when they might have to take responsibility for the reaction to their words. Even that can be subjective. I'm thinking of Salomon Rushde who had to live in hiding for so many years because of things he wrote about Islam in a work of fiction.

I think what is truly scary are the Evangelists who are supporting wars in the middle east because they are trying to speed up the signs in the book of Revolations so the rapture comes quickly. There are lobbyist in Washington buying this stuff and congressmen who subscribe to these ideas. That's frightening.

Any fanatic is frightening to me. I don't put the Pope in that catagory but perhaps some people do. We are living in a fragile world. People seems to need something to hang onto and some are grabbing extremely intolerant, unforgiving, and violent ideas.

Well said! But there are some people out there who can take some silly ideas said by some silly people who are meant to be role models of some people who believe in'em who would go out there and do the silliest actions which can ever be made!:(

So I think even the Pope is a danger at the Muslims! Next time he should keep his personal ideas or whatever it is now to him self!:yes:

As a responsible person he should act in away where he doesn't put more oil on the fire but :no: and no that's the new way now!

Maybe he was waiting for the day to come so he can make a very clear point to the Muslims!

Anyhow with all the wired ideas we see around these days is only the start!

Can't picture what this world would like in the next 100years!

Better go fishing now!:hyper: