View Full Version : Islamic Sharia Law
Do you think implementing the islamic sharia law in any country will eventually reduce the incidence of different crimes?
I had to vote no, because people will always break the law and they will also find new ways in which to do so. What is needed is more law enforcement.
Although I am for tougher penalties on criminals.
FaRaSHa
27-04-06, 03:48 PM
...........My vote wen to YES........
...............But at the same time, i would say it varies with the situations that lead to such things to occure and to take place..... though there is no excuse for a crime that was previously planned......
NicoBambi
27-04-06, 04:01 PM
could u tell me what's "the islamic sharia law" please
then i can vote :)
MorphaKnight
27-04-06, 04:05 PM
To be perfectly honest, I said no simply because I find that not everyone follows the sharia despite they call themselves "muslims". Also the sharia varries from sect to sect, the extremes (conservative and liberal) and the moderate and from individual to individual.. I find that the sharia are more like guidelines to life and given today's circumstances, it can be easily misused as it does give more power to muslims over other religions or men over women. Because of this, many people use it to their advantage. I find that if people rule justly and with good intentions and can't differ between men, women, rich and poor, old and young, muslim and other religions, strong and weak and all other variations then it would most definetly strengthen the community.
please dont misunderstand the thread, its sjust a simple Q: do you think the "rate of the crimes will decrease"
nicobambi, an example for you: anyone who rapes gets a death penalty
so you think that if this law exists, the one willing to rape will think many times before committing it?
I don't think it will have a huge effect..people will still commit crimes even if they are labled as 'muslims' thinking that they might never be caught or discovered anyways.
please dont misunderstand the thread, its sjust a simple Q: do you think the "rate of the crimes will decrease"
nicobambi, an example for you: anyone who rapes gets a death penalty
so you think that if this law exists, the one willing to rape will think many times before committing it?Yeah, I think they would. For such crimes i agree but sometimes like stealing, i think the situations around the criminal should be considered and solved rather than cut hands like they do in other Islamic countries
my vote is yes, since the sharia are the laws of God to men, nobody would make up better laws!
and the good example of that is the time of prophet mohammed :PBUH: and after he passed away, when the sahaba (his followers) implemented the sharia....The whole Islamic countries, including the non-muslims, lived a good life...Not WITHOUT crimes, but less crimes!
and yeah Kara there are tough laws in Sharia
Oman doesn't implement the Sharia law except in family matters yet the crime rates are lower. Why is that?
So this means that it is not attributed to the sharia legal system but to something else. Perhaps Islam as a religion should be credited for the low crime rate, but not necessarily the implementation of the Sharia.
Am I making sense? :rolleyes:
Oman used to implement sharia more than 50 years ago, during the 7ukum of Imams, the crimes have been increasing ever since the Sharia was dropped in oman...
So the reason for oman having a lower crimes rate is that they used to implement sharia, but not anymore, thats why its increasing
If someone could explain WHICH sharia law you are referring to that would be helpful ?
The Saudi Arabia model ?
The Nigerian model ?
The Pakistani model ?
sophis^catrina
27-04-06, 09:41 PM
I remember asking my criminal law teacher when the english law had very harsh sentences, like executing people who stole a few pennies, did that reduce the crime rate? She answered that it did not.
Shariah Law when it comes to the Quran provides guidleness, it says do not steal property, do not kill someone, do not, etc. But the Quran is not a legislation book and it was sent down 1400 years ago where life is much simpler, and it is our duty to keep developing it. Life today does not just compromise of mere theft when it comes to the offence of property. There is theft, robbery, burglay, aggravated burglary, deception and fraud offences, etc. These offences, are all offences against someone's property, they all are varying when it comes to the seriousness and thus deserve different punishments.
Another example, is the death penalty for one who kills another. But now we have several classifications; is it murder, involuntary manslaughter, manslaughter because of provocation, manslaughter because of diminished responsibility, manslaughter through self-defence, etc. Not all these categories are of the same level in seriousness, and have different sentences. The highest is murder, which earns a straight away life sentence imrisonment or the death penalty. So for me, and I could be wrong, I would assume the Shariah perhaps would say that for homocide the maximum sentence would be the death penalty, but this would be restricted to murder cases, rather than all cases where one kills another person.
sophis^catrina
27-04-06, 09:43 PM
...........................................
NicoBambi
27-04-06, 09:47 PM
please dont misunderstand the thread, its sjust a simple Q: do you think the "rate of the crimes will decrease"
nicobambi, an example for you: anyone who rapes gets a death penalty
so you think that if this law exists, the one willing to rape will think many times before committing it?
ooooh then my answer is yes
Mr Tickle
27-04-06, 09:48 PM
Braiki,
I did not know that God had given Sharia law to man
I thought it was man's interpretation
sophis^catrina
27-04-06, 09:51 PM
Oman used to implement sharia more than 50 years ago, during the 7ukum of Imams, the crimes have been increasing ever since the Sharia was dropped in oman...
So the reason for oman having a lower crimes rate is that they used to implement sharia, but not anymore, thats why its increasing
Braiki, life is not as simple as how Oman was before 1970. I believe Oman currently uses both Shariah Law and the English Common Law. Majority of the gulf regions, use both legal systems to fill in the gaps.
MsKnuckles
27-04-06, 09:57 PM
then what a huge graveyard we would need. :hmm:...
I would say no, it's not the solution...
CrazyReD
27-04-06, 10:00 PM
If someone could explain WHICH sharia law you are referring to that would be helpful ?
The Saudi Arabia model ?
The Nigerian model ?
The Pakistani model ?
I'd say neither are TRUE sharia laws. I voted yes but they have to be done exactly as stated and not give in to pressures from whoever.
If a "muslim" commits a crime and is found to be guilty he/she will be punished
same with other laws regardless of ur religion if you arn't caught then you arn't
ToomuchaT
27-04-06, 10:37 PM
.. i do believe it will do a major change!! .. and if the west applied it then i believe *as well* they will rule us completely.. no chance we can go back!!
But the Quran is not a legislation book and it was sent down 1400 years ago where life is much simpler
Quran is a legislation .. simply because it presents an issue and gives the solution before the punishment!!
.. life was simpler 1400 years ago!!.. i dont think so.. they had almost all sort of types of crimes!! what kind of crime u think they didnt have??
.. plus as i said before quran gives solutions before punishments.. where now days laws, they have a punishment and no solution!!..
.. a simple case: what does the now days law about prisoners of of war?? compare it to the islamic law that the Quran came with!!.. which one do u think is MOST humiliating?? .. as simple case Sadam!!
Please tell us (a) what are todays laws regarding POW's and (b) what are the laws as per Sharia.
I thanks.
sophis^catrina
27-04-06, 11:22 PM
Quran is a legislation .. simply because it presents an issue and gives the solution before the punishment!!
.. life was simpler 1400 years ago!!.. i dont think so.. they had almost all sort of types of crimes!! what kind of crime u think they didnt have??
The Quran provides guidelines. That is why we then later have hadith as our second source. But that was not enough, so we later had qiyas and ijma3. The Quran goes into great detail into the issue of inheretence, but even that was considered brief, and was still taken on ijma3 and qiyas. As for the crimes, a simple example on offences against property of the person. There are now crimes when it comes to intellectual property, fraud when it comes to company accounts to hacking people's computers with dishonest intent to retrieve property. The offence of theft ranges from you borrowing someone's book and later deciding not to return it, to someone trespassing another's house and using force/weapons to steal. The Quran does not go into detail on the different classification (as I have stated above) or the new types of offences that have sprung up because our lives have become more advanced, it gives a general guideline on 'not to steal'.
TMC, the law is a lot more complex that your simple view of it, that is why we have so much case law and statute books. The Quran provides a starting point, but we build on it.
.. and if the west applied it then i believe *as well* they will rule us completely.. no chance we can go back!!
Actually the legal systems in the west are based on the ten commandments !
Provided its done with spreading Islamic education and there is a lot of positivity going around in terms of the other islamic teachings, I think it would work. Of course it would not work on everyone, you would still have your criminals here and there (which is inevitable) but the amount would, I believe, be considerably less. It would also not begin to take effect right away, human takes conditioning. Perhaps after a few decades, and then it would be working as it should.
I do believe the loosening of laws and punishments in the legal system have contributed greatly to the rise of criminal acts.
It is as if you are raising children, how would you as parents deal with that and teach them? By using both a positive reinforcment (which would be the spiritual part of Islam) and a negative one, the shari3a.
sophis^catrina
28-04-06, 12:54 AM
I do believe the loosening of laws and punishments in the legal system have contributed greatly to the rise of criminal acts.
That is not the case. The crimes of theft (which includes petty thefts to the extent of young boys being executed for stealing a few shillings) used to be punishable through execution in the English system, but this did not mean that that had any effect on the theft/crime rate.
Crimes of rape have been increased lately in the UK for example, not because rapes have increased, but because there have been reforms in the legislation dealing with sexual offences so that more victims of crime would report and that more convictions would be upheld.
The rise of crimes in the West for example, are more to do with the reforms in the law to convict more people of crimes, rather than them being acquitted. For example, there was no such thing as marital rape in the west, but now there is, or past sexual history would be intro as evidence into court, which is now abolished or oral sex is now considered rape as well; all these factors (the reforms in legislation) increase the rape crime rate as more convictions are being upheld.
ToomuchaT
28-04-06, 01:13 AM
.. what i always get from the english ppl themselves *if we take uk as an example for the west* .. they will say the law is soft and that why ppl dont care if they commit any crime..
.. u can see in the news ..on daily bases.. the victim's relatives cry like hell because the court didnt apply the deserved punishment.
.. anyway.. i will leave that discussion.. but i will ask the following question:
.. who is the beneficiary of making all these classifications in the law?? *the classification that makes the law softer*
sophis^catrina
28-04-06, 01:40 AM
.. who is the beneficiary of making all these classifications in the law?? *the classification that makes the law softer*
Should a person who committed the offence of theft by not returning a book he borrowed get the same punishment as a person who trespassed into someone's elses house, used assault and violence to steal?
Should a person who was bullied, sexually abused and raped daily and through this provocation kills her/his taunter get the same sentence of life imprisonment/death penalty as someone who is a cold blooded murderer?
You answer those questions.
sophis^catrina, are you comparing the degree of crimes?
if someone killed one person & the other kiled 100, ill give both of them the same punishment of death if i were the judge
sophis^catrina
28-04-06, 01:59 AM
sophis^catrina, are you comparing the degree of crimes?
if someone killed one person & the other kiled 100, ill give both of them the same punishment of death if i were the judge
Yes, that is how the law is. If you murder one person, the punishment is the same if you murder several.
But, many cases which include someone killing another cannot be classified as murder, because they are not of the same degree. The doctor who was grossly negligent in his job and thus killed his patient, the man/woman who was constantly abused/raped which made them kill their victim is not of the same state of mind as the cold blooded murderer, the person who hit someone and through that action this lead to them being killed (which they did not intend and forsee); all these are circumstances of killing people that cannot be held as the same degree as murder.
1- The doctor who was grossly negligent in his job and thus killed his patient
2- the man/woman who was constantly abused/raped which made them kill their victim
3- the person who hit someone and through that action this lead to them being killed (which they did not intend and forsee)
all these are circumstances of killing people that cannot be held as the same degree as murder.
1- is medical malpractice considered "murder"?
2- a person who rapes should according to islamic law get the death penalty anyway
3- thats an accident
the terminology of murder is different, not everyone who dies by unnatural conditions is considered murdered
unless you try to convince me & satisfy me with a better explanation :help:
wanted to add to that, islamic laws are not so superficial & non of us is a scholar here
i believe that cases are studied by qualified scholars before judging anyone
sophis^catrina
28-04-06, 02:29 AM
The general guideline is that one who kills another, is to be killed.
1- is medical malpractice considered "murder"?
If you lumped up everyone who kills another as a murderer, it would be cosidered as murder and would have the same sentence. That is why here it is considered as manslaughter, because it is not classified as the same degree as murder.
2- a person who rapes should according to islamic law get the death penalty anyway
No. People do not take the law into their own hands. Other than rape, the person who was abused goes and kills who was abusing him/her. Or the person who was assauled goes and kills who was assaulting him/her. Or the person who was threatened goes and kills who was threating him/her, etc.
3- thats an accident
It does not work like that, you killed the person involuntary through your criminal act of hittting him/or stealing from him. Because you committed that lesser crime, that is why he died. It depends on the certain circumstance, if you go burgaled a house of an elderly person, and you can forsee that they are old and fragile and this causes them to have a heart attack and die, because of your act this is a much more serious case then you entering a shop trying to steal from the shop owner who is around 30, yet gets a heart attack and dies from this incident which the reaosonable person cannot forsee.
That's why not every case where you kill someone can be described as murder, and have different classifications and have reduced sentences.
sophis^catrina
28-04-06, 02:32 AM
wanted to add to that, islamic laws are not so superficial & non of us is a scholar here
Of course it is not. I was mentioning that the Quran provides guidelines to be build upon. But there are other sources; hadith, ijma3 and especially qiyas, which is where most of the law is developing to include the advanced and detailed cases.
yes thats why i said none of us is a qualified scholar to establish the punishment
one example is the 100 stripes for adultery, not everyone gets 100 stripes if they commit adultery, but if someone with superficial knowledge reads the rule, then he/she says: whip them 100 times! it doesnt work that way
anyway the thread is about islamic laws decreasing the rate of crimes not interpretation of law in general
but they are related topics somehow
Of course it will decrease. If sharia law is implement in any country, even non-Islamic one, it will surely decrease.
I don't think it will have a huge effect..people will still commit crimes even if they are labled as 'muslims' thinking that they might never be caught or discovered anyways.
Mmmm..Do you know what sharia law is? Sharia law is practical. It doesn't only say what not to do, it makes sure that no body does the crime.
sophis^catrina
28-04-06, 02:57 AM
^^^ But don't the GCC countries, for example, all apply shariah law already, although they have to apply the other legal systems for areas were shariah has not advanced and developed as far?
But don't the GCC countries, for example, all apply shariah law already
do they? :think::os
Defining and explaining Sharia (Islamic) law will take a lot of time over here. But in short, it is the perfect law that forbids all bad things. And more importantly, in addition to forbidding wrong things, it has the practical solutions (or sometimes punishments) to make sure that followers (or criminals) think twice before committing the crimes.
For example, lets say that in America we implement Islamic law, which states that women and men should not unnecessarily mix up and communicate. Also, that women and men should wear decent clothes that do not reveal. And then, if a man rapes a women, he is given the capital punishment. Will the rate of rape in America (A women every 2 minutes) decrease? Of course it will. Will the innocent women be safed from being raped? Of course it will.
Similarly, all Islamic laws are practical, therefore, it is the only PRACTICAL solution to humanity :)
May Allah show us all the right path. Peace
sophis^catrina
28-04-06, 03:05 AM
do they? :think::os
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/
^^^ But don't the GCC countries, for example, all apply shariah law already, although they have to apply the other legal systems for areas were shariah has not advanced and developed as far?
Shariah law was made to be implemented for all the times. Just as the Holy Qur'an was for all the people till the day of judgement. Thats why the miracles of Qur'an are still being found as the science develops.
So dear, sometimes we all find things that we feel are backward, but after further analysing and understanding, we realise that we were wrong. I understand your opinion, but I don't agree.
:)
sophis^catrina
28-04-06, 04:11 AM
Shariah law was made to be implemented for all the times. Just as the Holy Qur'an was for all the people till the day of judgement. Thats why the miracles of Qur'an are still being found as the science develops.
So dear, sometimes we all find things that we feel are backward, but after further analysing and understanding, we realise that we were wrong. I understand your opinion, but I don't agree.
:)
It does not work like that. We do not take our law merely from the Quran became it is very limited, it is our starting point. We take our law from the Quran, then the hadith, then ijma3, then case law primarily (Qiyas) because day to day we have different situations and different facts. There is no harm from taking after legal systems to fill in the gaps when shariah is still limited and needs to be further developed, which probably explains why most of the GCC countries use both Shariah and another legal system.
And to my knowledge, they only use Sharia or Islamic law in family matter- not other areas of law, not even criminal.
I agree with Sophis, the Koran is a limited legislation which acts as a guideline and it does not posses a detailed approach. There're too many degree of offenses that are not covered in the Holy Book. The Holy book conveys a way of life, it conveys history and principles and a handful of superficial legislation. Here it is only natural to rely on Hadith, and developments of Ijma3 and Qiyas or other legal systems for that matter.
Of course it is not. I was mentioning that the Quran provides guidelines to be build upon. But there are other sources; hadith, ijma3 and especially qiyas, which is where most of the law is developing to include the advanced and detailed cases.
I think the thread is about applying sharia laws with regard to the main crimes stated in the Quran. Like killing soomeone, rape, adultry, stealing, etc. So in such crimes you don't need other rulings or ijma3, etc. The other soruces needed when there is no clear ruling stated in the holy Quran.
The answer is yes it will decrease. Because these rules are perfect since it's not made by human beings.
I would also like to mention that the Islamic laws are the solution for the west social problems if applied.
BuSs BuSs
28-04-06, 07:53 AM
I think that it would... (yes) so long as it is implemented correctly!!
sophis^catrina
28-04-06, 08:20 AM
I think the thread is about applying sharia laws with regard to the main crimes stated in the Quran. Like killing soomeone, rape, adultry, stealing, etc. So in such crimes you don't need other rulings or ijma3, etc. The other soruces needed when there is no clear ruling stated in the holy Quran.
The answer is yes it will decrease. Because these rules are perfect since it's not made by human beings.
Icey, refer to my previous post http://www.englishsabla.com/forum/showpost.php?p=671395&postcount=14
It does not work like that. We do not take our law merely from the Quran became it is very limited, it is our starting point. We take our law from the Quran, then the hadith, then ijma3, then case law primarily (Qiyas) because day to day we have different situations and different facts. There is no harm from taking after legal systems to fill in the gaps when shariah is still limited and needs to be further developed, which probably explains why most of the GCC countries use both Shariah and another legal system.
I agree with you now :). And I must confess, most Arab/Islamic countries have failed to implement the sharia law completely. Also, just to add to what you said, I think also other laws that you referred to as filling the gaps, should be derived form the Islamic teachings.
:)
I totally agree with IceTea regarding the major crimes that are mentioned in the Qur'an. And lets try to discuss the whole matter from this dimension so it doesn't get out of the scope.
i voted for YES indeed :)
sheik-al-Tort
28-04-06, 03:38 PM
The advantage of Sharia law is that it removes the burden of thinking. I can see how that might be attractive to certain people.
Of course they would not be able to answer Sophis C's interesting questions
sheik, the sharia won't remove the burden of thinking
sharia means rules
these rules manage our life in a good way
of course following the rules would decrease the number of crimes
especially if they were god's rules coz who'd know better than the great creator himself? :)
Queen & Braiki, some people like making their own rules & not only that, they also enjoy altering the rules made by the creator
al hamdulillah
The advantage of Sharia law is that it removes the burden of thinking. I can see how that might be attractive to certain people.
Of course they would not be able to answer Sophis C's interesting questions
No sheik, Sharia Law does exactly the opposite of what you stated above. It encourages people to think. The sad part is that many do not want to think so they misuse it, and even more sad is that then the outsiders use this to defame it.
As for answering Qs, why don't u answer one. Will the rate of rape increase or decrease if Sharia Law is implemented in UK and US? I hope you don't mind, but I am trying to explain the whole thing from a practical dimension.
sheik-al-Tort
28-04-06, 04:48 PM
Following rules means that there is no requirement to think about things - just become an automaton fearful of making any decisions for yourself.
The beauty of Christianity is that rather than slavishly following a thousand rules and giving the impression of being a good person, it forces you to take responsiblity and base your actions on two key principles - Love God with all your heart and love thy neighbour.
If this was followed in the UK there would be no crime whatsoever.
The fact is that humans are weak and won't follow the right path irrespective of the nature of the 'rules' Sharia or otherwise. Sharia rules do not protect young children in Madrasses from mad mullahs, so why should one believe that they would provide a practical antidote to UK or US citizens who are bent? That is wishful thinking.
If the heart is in the right place, right actions will follow. If the heart is self serving then no amount of rules even if handed directly by God will make any difference. The person will still be evil.
Only the grace of God can change things. Not rules.
The beauty of Christianity is that rather than slavishly following a thousand rules and giving the impression of being a good person, it forces you to take responsiblity and base your actions on two key principles - Love God with all your heart and love thy neighbour.
sheik, let me clarify, almost all rules and laws are beautiful and good. whether be it religious or governmental.
If this was followed in the UK there would be no crime whatsoever.
Exactly sheik. I totally agree that even if the people only just follow the rules of their society, the crime rates would surely go down. But the problem is, most of the laws and rules are not practical.
The creator of human kind and everything around has made the rules to run this world clear. These laws and rules are perfect (Islamic Laws). The thing that particularly makes Islamic laws unique is that they are practical and they make sure that the cimr rates are minimized.
And the statistics prove this.
Peace
Furthermore, I would like to share a wonderful experience, which most Muslims know about, with the non-Muslims reading this. In 1999 I went to Mecca and Medinah, and I was shocked to see that at the time of prayers all businesses, big and small, simply left their shop / store as it was and left for prayers. Why?
Because in Mecca, the Islamic Laws have been implemented, so nobody even dares to steal.
Is there any similar city in the world?
Where did everybody disappear? Did I ruin the flow of the thread by asking a simple question? I am sorry :( I just wanted to show what I meant by saying that Islamic Law is not only good, but it is practical.
:)
i vote yes..
i believe that all the solutions are there in islam..
but we need just to use them in the correct way and consider any new things that comes along....
we've tried the laws made by ppl just like u and me....and we see how crime rates are increasing... and how rapes and murders are happening in a daily basis in some countries...
but it is practical.
:)
Enlighten us sting. How will the law stop people from hmm.. lets say stealing? we all know by now that people will continue to just lie and say they didn't steal or even lie for that matter. Being muslims didn't stop them from doing it..so I doubt any 'law' will change it. If you are not afraid of 'allah' then why should you be afraid of some person who might apply the law on you.
Enlighten us sting. How will the law stop people from hmm.. lets say stealing? we all know by now that people will continue to just lie and say they didn't steal or even lie for that matter. Being muslims didn't stop them from doing it..so I doubt any 'law' will change it. If you are not afraid of 'allah' then why should you be afraid of some person who might apply the law on you.
How wonderful to see you discuss such issues in Religion Sabla. Is this ur first post here? :think:
Anyhow naban, I reckon you want me to increase your knowledge regarding how Islamic Law is practical right? Sorry if I misunderstood but you question was too long and quite unclear. Correct me if I misunderstood dear and don't be so emotional ;)
If you read my previous post, it clearly gives an example of how Islamic Law is practical.
In 1999 I went to Mecca and Medinah, and I was shocked to see that at the time of prayers all businesses, big and small, simply left their shop / store as it was and left for prayers. Why?
Because in Mecca, the Islamic Laws have been implemented, so nobody even dares to steal.
If you need more examples and explanations please PM me and I will be glad to help a fellow member :)
May Allah enlighten you and show you the right path. Say Ameen brother Nabhan :)
How wonderful to see you discuss such issues in Religion Sabla. Is this ur first post here? :think:
Anyhow naban, I reckon you want me to increase your knowledge regarding how Islamic Law is practical right? Sorry if I misunderstood but you question was too long and quite unclear. Correct me if I misunderstood dear and don't be so emotional ;)
If you read my previous post, it clearly gives an example of how Islamic Law is practical.
Do you always beat around the bush to make your posts lengthy and 'seem' smart? lol.
My post was not a question..it was an explanation on why even if the law was provided..if a person does not fear god and his wrath..then nothing will stop him/her from doing what is wrong. I am sure you already know that by now.
Looks like that was YOUR first post in this place. :p
sophis^catrina
29-04-06, 02:53 AM
The advantage of Sharia law is that it removes the burden of thinking.
You misunderstand me. Sheikh, Shariah is made up of four sources: Quran, hadith, all jurists agreeing on the same decision, and case law. Case law is all about applying intellect and thinking. My point was that to say that to apply shariah law, and no other legal system currently to a country, would be wishful thinking and not a good idea. Because currently shariah case law is too limited and not as well developed. I remember in KSA, a few decades ago, since it is governed completely by sharia, they thought that investing in shares, etc was the same as gambling and the government did not invest at all in shares. However now, as the law is getting more developed, they realised that is not the case and it is halal. But think of all the money they would have made if they had gotten it right at first!
In any muslim country, you need to apply shariah to some extent, because muslims abide by a specific set of basic laws (e.g. inheritence, etc) that non-muslims don't, but I think the sharia case law is not as developed, and so there are too many gaps to be filled. Which explains why the GCC countries don't just use shariah law, but also another legal system; to keep up with the advanced world. My point is, we need more specialists in order for shariah to be more wildly used, so that we advance rather than fall backwards when using it. For example, the first Islamic economy university in the world to be established in Kuwait, which is the way forward.
Finally, there was a point in time when Sharia law was probably the most advanced legal system in the world, that was during the time of Omar bin Khattab, during his reign was when the first indpendent judiciary was created, which was then adopted by the later western legal systems. Unfortunately later the Arab world fell into stagnation, Europe went through the renaissance age ... and you know the rest.
Do you always beat around the bush to make your posts lengthy and 'seem' smart? lol.
My post was not a question..it was an explanation on why even if the law was provided..if a person does not fear god and his wrath..then nothing will stop him/her from doing what is wrong. I am sure you already know that by now.
Looks like that was YOUR first post in this place. :p
Brother Nabhan, now I understand dear. But you must realise that we members are trying to discuss the greatness of Islamic Law and how it is far more practical than any other law. I have proved this with statistics earlier and by giving an example of Mecca now.
I know you are new in this section of the forum, so I understand, and I request all other members to understand and be patient, in helping youclear the doubts you have even if they are totally unrelated to the thread or posts.
It is our duty to spread the message and help everybody :)
So now Nabhan, what is exactly bothering you? You know you can talk to us about everything :). Since your are trying to understand/explain that despite all the laws, people still steal right?
Well well I agree with you brother, but the world is not perfect you see. So you should not be so sensitive and emotional when you see crimes around. This only shows how wonderful a person you are. I know sometimes some people find it hard to believe we have all these crimes around, but we men, atleast, must be strong and do whatever we can to show the people the right path. Insha'Allah we all enter the Heaven and then there you will see no crimes and everything will be perfect. May we all enter the Heaven. Say AMEEN brother Nahan :)
I am sorry if I hurt your eyes by writing such long posts. But I really feel its my duty to enlighten the ignorant and that also after being sure that they are convinced. So I am sorry again if I hurt your eyes :)
P.S. Would you like to talk to me by phone about what is bothering you? That way yours eyes won't hurt by reading my long posts. Shall i PM you my mobile number brother?! :)
God bless you
I am sorry if I hurt your eyes by writing such long posts. But I really feel its my duty to enlighten the ignorant
That is EXCELLENT. Maybe you should try talking to yourself infront of a mirror then? Tell me if you try it so that I can notice the differences in your posts later on.
I just find it weird that you out of all muslims would try to prove that the islamic sharia would work perfectly when well..it obviously failed to straighten you out. :p
Anyways.. thank you for your lovely wishes.. and inshallah all good people will go to heaven. Say amen to that Sing.
i feel sad..we as muslims should be a one hand..i mean there are non-muslims in here..they'll be surprised to see us devided like this! we should be muslim idols and instead of that we're destroying islam!!
some muslims say islam is great and others say no islam is not and it doesn't make our lives good..what a shame!
i am ashamed and i don't blame shiek if he was surprised and goes and devided us into good and bad muslims
shame shame..
i tottally agree with u QuEeN, but what to do! we just watch the posts n in6amm :) n pary for God's guidance
That is EXCELLENT. Maybe you should try talking to yourself infront of a mirror then? Tell me if you try it so that I can notice the differences in your posts later on.
Yes dear, I will surely try this. But the problem is I will need to become a sensitive soft person. The thing is that I am a man and its difficult for me to become all that sensitive :blush:. But I will try it nevertheless, I don't want u to feel hurt.
I just find it weird that you out of all muslims would try to prove that the islamic sharia would work perfectly when well..it obviously failed to straighten you out. :p
What :weep: Oh god this hurts so bad. I feel like crying when I find out that someone doesn't like me. Maybe I will put this in my blog and talk about it to my girl friends. Oh god I am becoming so sensitive :weep: :Shock:
Anyways.. thank you for your lovely wishes.. and inshallah all good people will go to heaven. Say amen to that Sing.
Ameen to that Nabhan, all those who follow the path that Allah has asked us to follow will surely enter the Heaven Insha'Allah :)
some muslims say islam is great and others say no islam is not and it doesn't make our lives good..what a shame!
Yes QuEeN I must say I was surprised myself to see that one of the first posts of a junior muslim member in this section of the forum was against Islam and the will of Allah.
I guess we are divided after all. One group are the Muslims and the other is called "Modern Muslims".
if islam sharia failed to solve some problems then it's because of the people themselves..it has nothing to do with islam ok?
and what is this modern muslims thing?this is rediculas
we're either muslims or non-muslims if you want to b a muslim you follow whatever Allah orders you to do. Period.
Yes QuEeN I must say I was surprised myself to see that one of the first posts of a junior muslim member in this section of the forum was against Islam and the will of Allah.
I guess we are divided after all. One group are the Muslims and the other is called "Modern Muslims".
i think it is the thinking what we should work on....
For years now ppl are always fed with ideas wrong about religions ruling the world... and they always blame the religion for the wars happened in the history and forget that the 2 biggest wars (the 2 world wars) in the man's history...had nothing to do with religion...
they always that our religion is not applicibale...and full of ideal thoughts which are never to apply.....
i see that our religion one of the most that u can apply....
human rules r crap
like a guy kills a little child? he goes to jail for a year and a half if he behaves good he's released and then he kills another child! :eh: that is pethatic why do we make up rules instead of following the rules of the great creator?
we're either muslims or non-muslims if you want to b a muslim you follow whatever Allah orders you to do. Period.
Exactly. So what would we call those Muslims who disrespect Islam and do not believe in its teachings? Who forget their origin just because being themself requires a bit of courage and effort.:o
Ichigo, did you notice how all those who were against Sharia Law disappeared? Of course Islamic law is the most practical law ever because it was written by our creator. I gave a simple exaple of Theft in Mecca but yet the non-believers do not understand!
Ichigo, did you notice how all those who were against Sharia Law disappeared? Of course Islamic law is the most practical law ever because it was written by our creator. I gave a simple exaple of Theft in Mecca but yet the non-believers do not understand!
Yeah, it clear from me in fact...
it is the ultimate....and if we really give it a thought....islam has explained every thing we need...i even get surprised sometimes to the extent the we know about the Prophet Mohammed :PBUH: details of life....
Yes Ichigo and yet the non-believers disagree. They do not accept the signs they receive and they reject the scientific miracles in the word of god. So how will they accept the Laws?! :(
i think non-believers hate the idea from start...the whole religion....so we will not be waititng them to follow the Laws of Sharia...
but it is up to us muslims to show them how our Lord's Laws can bring happiness to all man kind...
Yes Ichigo..God bless you :)
sophis^catrina
29-04-06, 02:26 PM
human rules r crap
like a guy kills a little child? he goes to jail for a year and a half if he behaves good he's released and then he kills another child!
He gets life imprisonment.
we make up rules instead of following the rules of the great creator?
Most of Shariah law is based case law, made by the courts, that is human beings. ;) The rules that are laid down in the Quran are too few, barely enough to cover everything that happens; that is why there are verses that say "wa aqeemo al 3adl " "wa aqeemo al shura" , indicating that when we do impose man made laws they should be fair.
He gets life imprisonment.
Do they? How many cases do we hear about where the legal system allows people like that out on bail, or probation? Or their sentences are lessened because of "good behavior"? How many times do we hear about people who've done horrible things, to go to jail for awhile and then come out and do them again? Then you have two results, the first is a large number of criminals who should already be behind bars that have gotten out somehow, and the second is the group that KNOWS their chances of getting out after a few years in jail are high. Which is why the crime rate goes up.
Shari3a leaves NO space for you to think "oh its only a few years and then I'm out". Shari3a leaves no chance for you to repeat that crime again. That is why I am all for Shari3a.
sophis^catrina
29-04-06, 02:36 PM
is why I am all for Shari3a.
And end up like KSA?
And don't tell me they are not applying Shariah properly. ;) Most of Shariah Law is man made case law. So when they say that a woman is not allowed to drive, to them that is religion/wahabi sect. ;)
He gets life imprisonment.
Most of Shariah law is based case law, made by the courts. ;) The rules that are laid down in the Quran are too few, barely enough to cover everything that happens; that is why there are verses that say "wa aqeemo al 3adl " "wa aqeemo al shura" , indicating that when we do impose man made laws they should be fair.
I agree with you sophis. But what about judgements already given by Allah? No body is against having human laws derived from Islamic teachings, but as I said earlier, judgement for major crimes should be implemented directly as they are clearly stated.
Life imprisonment sounds quite humane and at the same time it is a serious punishment. But will it stop te crazy minded rapers from raping for example? As I said, Islamic rules, such as the ones dealing with stealing and raping, are practical and they simply prevent crimes from being committed in the first place.
I feel we both are on the same channel but sadly we just need to tune our frequencies a little bit ;)
I thought we were talking about crimes here- what's driving to do with that? And getting into a discussion about which sect's rules to apply is something else all together.
sophis^catrina
29-04-06, 02:44 PM
Do they? How many cases do we hear about where the legal system allows people like that out on bail, or probation? Or their sentences are lessened because of "good behavior"? How many times do we hear about people who've done horrible things, to go to jail for awhile and then come out and do them again? Then you have two results, the first is a large number of criminals who should already be behind bars that have gotten out somehow, and the second is the group that KNOWS their chances of getting out after a few years in jail are high. Which is why the crime rate goes up.
Shari3a leaves NO space for you to think "oh its only a few years and then I'm out". Shari3a leaves no chance for you to repeat that crime again. That is why I am all for Shari3a.
- Yes, there are such cases, but that varies from facts of the case to another. But is generally a mandatory life imprisonment.
- You said that it leaves no chance to repeat the crime again? Then what about those people who kill because of being provoked, diminished responsibility or the mother who kills her new born baby because she is so mentally disturbed, having very bad effects after child birth? The law is not as easy as kill someone, you get killed. It relies on the facts of each particular case, to decide whether you do indeed deserve a maximum life sentence or death penalty.
sophis^catrina
29-04-06, 02:45 PM
I thought we were talking about crimes here- what's driving to do with that? And getting into a discussion about which sect's rules to apply is something else all together.
Fine. KSA is currently the only GCC country that applies Shariah Law completely. Do you think that we should all follow their footsteps and become like KSA?
zulfa1981
29-04-06, 02:46 PM
edited... :smile:
sophis^catrina
29-04-06, 02:53 PM
I agree with you sophis. But what about judgements already given by Allah? No body is against having human laws derived from Islamic teachings, but as I said earlier, judgement for major crimes should be implemented directly as they are clearly stated.
Life imprisonment sounds quite humane and at the same time it is a serious punishment. But will it stop te crazy minded rapers from raping for example? As I said, Islamic rules, such as the ones dealing with stealing and raping, are practical and they simply prevent crimes from being committed in the first place.
I feel we both are on the same channel but sadly we just need to tune our frequencies a little bit ;)
I understand. But I think that in order to be advanced, it is ridiculous to just rely on the Quran, because it hardly covers much and gives general guidelines. Shariah law itself is made up of four sources, for this particular reason. I think that anything to do with knowledge, we build upon what is advanced in our time, rather than starting from what was left off centuries ago. The great Muslim scientists and philosophers build their works from the non-muslim scientists of the old civilizations, by taking what was seen as alright in the religious sense and leaving what was against the religion. That is how knowledge works, you build upon what is the most advanced system/work at that particular time. So with the legal systems, I don't find anything wrong from drawing from other legal systems, it is knowledge that we use, and we leave out that is against Islam (for example the inheretance laws).
sophis^catrina
29-04-06, 02:59 PM
The beauty of Christianity is that rather than slavishly following a thousand rules and giving the impression of being a good person, it forces you to take responsiblity and base your actions on two key principles - Love God with all your heart and love thy neighbour.
The legal systems in the west are based on Christian Beliefs. Not to steal/not to kill/ etc are from the ten commandment and the Christian Beliefs. However through time, some of the laws were changed as the country became more secular. For instance, there was no such thing as a man raping his wife, although that was altered very recently, saying that he could or the law on sodomy was changed so that it was no longer an offence.
Oh my god sophis..I think we will keep on moving round the same topic all day long :D
Nobody is suggesting we human should not make our on rules. But they must be derived from Islamic Teachings. And as for the punishments already mentions in the Qur'an, they should be implemented straight away.
I rest my case. You can be a great lawyer and I give up :D
Sophis, before we get into a debate I think I need to better understand your position here. What would be your ideal solution to solving increased crime rates in a given society?
Mine would be to take from the basics of Quran and Sunnah, all followed closely (except when you have more complicated case- such as the mentally disturbed woman you mentioned- in which case there would be an alternative sentence) and then to build on that from ijma3 and qiyas. I do not favor the western system in which laws it contradicts with Islam- ANY of them, such as punishment for killing or rape. I don't agree with imprisonment for those. However there are some rules which do make sense, rules we have not been given from Quran or Sunnah, and might be applied successfuly in our Islamic states.
Very well said Enigma. I don't know why can't I be that concise :(
:p
miss Sophis
Quraan didn't talk about each and evey case u're right but it gave us the basics and Allah gave us brains to think based on those main rules
that's y we have shiyookh el deen or 3olama2 el deen (preaches)
Pineapple Thief
29-04-06, 03:14 PM
Fine. KSA is currently the only GCC country that applies Shariah Law completely. Do you think that we should all follow their footsteps and become like KSA?
Heaven forbid. The KSA may implement some crude form of shariah law, but look at it. Apparently Omanis are kuffar - how can you even begin to implement sharia when thats your view?
Sophis, before we get into a debate I think I need to better understand your position here. What would be your ideal solution to solving increased crime rates in a given society?
Mine would be to take from the basics of Quran and Sunnah, all followed closely (except when you have more complicated case- such as the mentally disturbed woman you mentioned- in which case there would be an alternative sentence) and then to build on that from ijma3 and qiyas. I do not favor the western system in which laws it contradicts with Islam- ANY of them, such as punishment for killing or rape. I don't agree with imprisonment for those. However there are some rules which do make sense, rules we have not been given from Quran or Sunnah, and might be applied successfuly in our Islamic states.
very well said Enigma :star:
Pineapple Thief
29-04-06, 03:16 PM
Why do we focus on the criminal aspect anyway, what about sharia laws of divorce, inheritance, etc.? Why dont we talk about them? They are just as relevant - although admittedly not the topic of the thread perhaps.
Arabian Princess
29-04-06, 03:17 PM
Just to make this thread more clear coz I am certainly lost:
- Those who are for Shariah Law, give examples of laws that you would like to be implemented
- Those who say we should have man made law, give examples where you think sharia law is not specific.
Just examples, so we would know are we talking about the same thing or not!!
sophis^catrina
29-04-06, 03:17 PM
Sophis, before we get into a debate I think I need to better understand your position here. What would be your ideal solution to solving increased crime rates in a given society?
The USA still uses the death penalty. So that's not so different from the Shariah sentence.
Another issue when it comes to rape. Do you mean the cold blooded rapist that is lurking in the bushes? Do you mean the husband rapist? So you mean the rapist who you had sex with six months ago with consent, and now you no longer give consent to him to have sex with you and go to court saying that he rapped you? Do you mean the rapist that you were gladly sleeping with, and half way through the act you no longer want him to be inside you?
Which rapist are you talking about? And do you mean that all of them should have the same death penalty?
Crime rates in a society, is not really based on a legal system. I remember telling you earlier that in the english system, even for petty thefts they would execute someone; but that did not made a difference to the crime rate.
Crima rates are reliant on poverty, unemployment (really economic factors), and then people attitudes. Do they have respect for the rule of law? Using wasta is no different as stealing money from someone else, since you have used dishonest means and stolen someone elses opportunity. So do people who use wasta (which is theft) have their hands chopped off? And as Nabhan was saying earlier on, it is a matter of conscience whether you fear God or not. The highest crime rates happen in communities that have povery, unemployment, people having no respect for the law; while in the western societies that is very much significantly lower, because poverty, unemployment is not as wides spread and people do respect the rule of law.
sophis^catrina
29-04-06, 03:20 PM
Heaven forbid. The KSA may implement some crude form of shariah law, but look at it. Apparently Omanis are kuffar - how can you even begin to implement sharia when thats your view?
Whatever you say, apparently the Saudis believe they are implimenting Shariah Law.
Sophis you are going into too much detail here, that is why we are in circles, we are talking generally. Each case would be taken into consideration and we decide according to Sharia, Ijma3, Quiyas and common sense what would be the suitable sentence.
And as Nabhan was saying earlier on, it is a matter of conscience whether you fear God or not. The highest crime rates happen in communities that have povery, unemployment, people having no respect for the law; while in the western societies that is very much significantly lower, because poverty, unemployment is not as wides spread and people do respect the rule of law.
Actually I don't agree with that. First of all, a lot of human beings are much more likely to fear something they can SEE rather than something they cannot see. That is the point of having these laws in the first place, not everyone has the consciense of Allah knowing inside of them so there has to be another way of stopping crimes. Second, stopping these crimes is, as I've said before done by both negative and positive reinforments. The negative is to put the fear in those who don't have the respect that we think SHOULD be there but which is not. We do that by implementing our, yes - very strict, laws. The positive is to teach people spiritually about God and religon... combined you will have a very satistfying result.
ToomuchaT
29-04-06, 03:36 PM
Crima rates are reliant on poverty, unemployment (really economic factors), and then people attitudes.
.. in the past *let say at the time of our prophet :PBUH: * they poverty has its maximum rates than now.. ppl couldnt find what to eat but still they didnt steal.. simply coz the rule was strong enough to stop them from that!!
sheik-al-Tort
29-04-06, 03:38 PM
Mmmm..Do you know what sharia law is? Sharia law is practical. It doesn't only say what not to do, it makes sure that no body does the crime.
I stumbled across this nonsense from Sting.
if Sharia Law is as practical as you claim, then there would be no need for any punishments as all people would follow it.
do you have a fairy godmother too? Are their leprichauns at the bottom of your pastel plastic playpen.
Explain your lack of logic O saintly one in whose footsteps we mere mortals are not worthy to follow?
:weep:
sophis^catrina
29-04-06, 03:40 PM
Sophis you are going into too much detail here, that is why we are in circles, we are talking generally. Each case would be taken into consideration and we decide according to Sharia, Ijma3, Quiyas and common sense what would be the suitable sentence.
I am getting into detail, to show that it is not wise to think that just because we implement shariah law completely that will solve the problems of crime rate. It does not work like that. I think we can see KSA, who do implement the Shariah Law, but recently the crime rates have been increasing because of unemployment and poverty. Iran is the same thing, they believed that if they implemented Shariah their problems would be solved, which is not the case. Crime rates greatly rely on economic factors (e.g. unemployment, poverty) and whether people respect the rule of law.
Secondly, the attitudes of people need to change. It does not matter which legal system you impose, what matters do people respect the rule of law. In GCC countries, including KSA, there is a huge problem of wasta (which is theft btw, under the legal definition), this stems from there is no respect for the rule of law. While the Western societies, they do greatly respect their laws, and so many of societies problems are lessened.
Sheik, understand what sharia means
sharia=laws
you break the laws you get punished
sophis^catrina
29-04-06, 03:43 PM
.. in the past *let say at the time of our prophet :PBUH: * they poverty has its maximum rates than now.. ppl couldnt find what to eat but still they didnt steal.. simply coz the rule was strong enough to stop them from that!!
No. They did not steal, because of their attitudes. They had a great fear of God and they had a great respect for the law.
I remember in Thailand, I was amazed at how the people despite being poor did not steal (and they are not governed by Shariah). That their attitudes were so refreshing, stemming from their beliefs and having respect for the law.
The increase in crime rate stems from both poverty and unemployment (just look at Africa) and people having no respect for the law (or having no longer a religious conscience).
so sophis let me get this straight
u're basicly saying the laws of Quraan are useless?
sheik-al-Tort
29-04-06, 03:52 PM
Thailand is largely buddhist. Buddhist followers tend to be peace loving and honest. Compassion is a central tenet. They do not need a thousand rules or an instruction manual in Arabic to look after each other.
Queen your question of Sophis Catrina is a huge leap to a conclusion that could not possibly be based on what she has said. Are you looking for a fight perhaps?
i am not but based on what she said i asked this question :)
p.s amma peacful girl who spreads flowers around singing cumbaia :flower: lol
sophis^catrina
29-04-06, 03:57 PM
so sophis let me get this straight
u're basicly saying the laws of Quraan are useless?
I am saying that they are very few. That they guide lines, that we build upon. The Quran is a starting point, saying that one should not steal, should not kill, etc. It does not go into great depth. This is left to us humans. For example it says if you kill a person, they deserve the death penalty. That is a general guide line But it does not go into great detail about circumstances, facts, etc. Life now has become too advanced and too complex, that we need a very advanced legal system. Shariah law is currently too limited, which is why most countries use another legal system as well in conjuction with it. For example, banks. Only now they have started the Islamic banks, and only recently have they build the first Islamic economics university. Shariah at the commercial stage for example, is still a baby lets say :p .
My point is that when it comes to knowledge, you use the most advanced system at the time and alter it to suit your Islamic needs. Rather than base it on what scholars said centuries ago when life was different back then. For example the system of banks. Muslims wanted banks to cater for them, so they used the western model and altered it to suit their needs to not use ribaa for example. So the legal systems are the same, you use what is most advanced, then you get specialists and alter it according to your Islamic needs. Coz otherwise, we have seen KSA, and I think that rather than advancing, they have fallen backwards, which is not a good thing.
i didn't want to jump into conclusions that's why i asked her before :)
sophis again we told you Quraan gave us the basics then based on the basics the preaches and scientists made more islamic rules
example Quraan told us to do wu'9oo (washing b4 prayers) but didn't say how then prophet Muhammad showed muslims how right?
same here Quraan gave general rules then the scientists made new rules based on the basic ones
Sophis Quraan rules are made by Allah
Allah knows what was going to happen in the future
so don't think those rules were based on what happened in the past
yes it is the duty of muslim scientists not to alter the rules but to make up new rules based on the basic ones in the Quraan u're right :)
sophis^catrina
29-04-06, 04:02 PM
Thailand is largely buddhist. Buddhist followers tend to be peace loving and honest. Compassion is a central tenet.
Yes. My point to TMC why the crime rates during the Prophet's time were very low, was because people have a great respect for their religion and the law. Which is similar to the Thai people. Your attitude towards religion and respect for the law, whatever the legal system, greatly influences the crime rate.
sophis^catrina
29-04-06, 04:04 PM
Sophis Quraan rules are made by Allah
Allah knows what was going to happen in the future
so don't think those rules were based on what happened in the past
Queen, if the laws in the Quran fulfill everything that will happen in the future, then why do we hadith, qiyas and ijma3? Qiyas, being man made laws?
Quran, is a holy book, a book of religion. It hardly goes a few hundred pages on the law! That is why there are some verses that say "wa aqeemo al 3adl", because simply it cannot cover everything that will happen in the future!
Queen, KSA has limited themselves to just applying the Shariah, have they advanced?
i've edited wut i said up there :)
yes hadith, qiyas and ijma3 is the answer but they're not fully made by humans..they base on the the main rules in Quraan
I dont think Thailand is a country that can be taken as a good example & Buddhism given credit for it
Just because many dont steal there doesnt make them good, what are they doing regarding the prostitution & HIV crisis in their country?
Quran has made clear cut rules regarding few matters & many others are not in it, but scholars & people of knowledge must try to abstract things from Quran & the teaching of the prophet Muhammad :PBUH:
Another example is that even during the time of the caliphs, many times they had to ask the opinion of the knowledgable muslims in a matter which wasnt very clear, if anyone interested I can even share a couple of those
sophis^catrina
29-04-06, 04:13 PM
Another example is that even during the time of the caliphs, many times they had to ask the opinion of the knowledgable muslims in a matter which wasnt very clear, if anyone interested I can even share a couple of those
The Shariah law that time was the most advanced legal system in the world. That was pretty much like the Islamic Empire, having the brightest scientists, philosophers, etc which includes its legal system. But times have changed, because they were centuries of stagnation and backwards (during the Othman rule), while Europe and the western world went forwards. When you want to learn something you go to the most advanced universities and read the latest books, I believe you go to the West now (which they have build their knowledge on what the Islamic Empire produced), rather than just reading books written by scientists 400 years ago (e.g. Newton's original study).
Oman currently does not even have any Islamic banks. How can you even impose Shariah Law commercially, when the whole banking system itself is unislamic, for example?
sophis^catrina
29-04-06, 04:15 PM
i've edited wut i said up there :)
yes hadith, qiyas and ijma3 is the answer but they're not fully made by humans..they base on the the main rules in Quraan
All legal systems are based on religion. The Western laws are based on Christian beliefs in fact.
To not steal, not kill, etc are not man made laws, they are actually religious laws!
The Shariah law that time was the most advanced legal system in the world. That was pretty much like the Islamic Empire, having the brightest scientists, philosophers, etc which includes its legal system.
So currently US & maybe UK are very advanced, why isnt their legal system advanced despite having the best scientists & philosophers?
As the statistics have already proven that
spending some time in jail then walking out freely and commit another murder do u think this is based on christian rules? :os
what about devorce? signing all those papers
it's all human rules nothing taken from the bible
sophis^catrina
29-04-06, 04:21 PM
So currently US & maybe UK are very advanced, why isnt their legal system advanced despite having the best scientists & philosophers?
As the statistics have already proven that
Hitman, let me give you a simple example.
Rape statistics have increased not because rape has increased, but rather their legislation has been reformed lately to include oral sex as rape, marital rape, not allowing past sexual history evidence into court anymore (which was used in the past so lots of people were being acquitted). It is because there have been reforms in the law precisely to get more people convicted and increase reports, rather than rape itself increasing.
sophis^catrina
29-04-06, 04:23 PM
spending some time in jail then walking out freely and commit another murder do u think this is based on christian rules? :os
what about devorce? signing all those papers
it's all human rules nothing taken from the bible
Queen. When it comes to killing someone there is murder and manslaughter. Murder has a mandatory life imprisonment/death penalty. Manslaughter depends on the circumstances.
As for divorce, even in the Islamic world, if women want a divorce don't they have to go to court? The only difference is that a man can easily divorce his wife by saying a few words.
it's not just going to court
he has 3 chances and when he divorces her, there must be witnesses
i don't have to explain the story because that's not the case
but these are the islamic rules and i don't think any other relegions or human rules are applyed this was..it's unique :)
Rape statistics have increased not because rape has increased, but rather their legislation has been reformed lately to include oral sex as rape, marital rape
I dont get that point, sorry!
I thought forcing someone for oral sex was rape even before they changed their legislation!
sophis^catrina
29-04-06, 04:28 PM
I dont get that point, sorry!
I thought forcing someone for oral sex was rape even before they changed their legislation!
It was not rape, it was changed 2003 (in UK).
Islamically though, rape is only vaginal and anal.
sophis^catrina
29-04-06, 04:29 PM
it's not just going to court
he has 3 chances and when he divorces her, there must be witnesses
i don't have to explain the story because that's not the case
but these are the islamic rules and i don't think any other relegions or human rules are applyed this was..it's unique :)
Women need to go to court to get a divorce, isn't that the same as the western world?
in western world she can devorce the man just like drinking water
in islam the worst case is divorce
because a woman can't just go to court and ask for a divorce for no reason
and i think there should be witnesses as well
Islamically though, rape is only vaginal and anal.
Can you share the source of that information please :)
sophis^catrina
29-04-06, 04:41 PM
in western world she can devorce the man just like drinking water
in islam the worst case is divorce
because a woman can't just go to court and ask for a divorce for no reason
and i think there should be witnesses as well
There are a lot of problems with that in a patriarchal society. Lots of women suffer because even when they have legitimate claims, they are turned away many times. I don't want to get into detail ith this.
can you share the source of that information please
I don't have online, but if you have a source that says that forced oral sex is rape islamically, then that would be most refreshing.
Anyway, I have said all that I want to say, and I think we are just going into circles now. There are a few things I want to leave you with:
- Rather than thinking if we impose Shariah our problems will be solved, do people have such respect for the rule of law (even in KSA) that they would not use wasta (which is theft) which unfortunately is too widespread?
-KSA uses Shariah law completely, even though it is too limited, is that successful?
- It is not a matter that we are turning away from God's rules, it is a matter that we need to use shariah with another legal system currently to be in the advanced world. My example when it comes to business, only recently they have started using Islamic banks and only recently they have build the first islamic economics univeristy. We need to have more specialists.
sophis^catrina, you can take your time & anytime later can post the source, since you have made the claim :)
Anyway, as I can see, more than 70% have voted for yes :)
sophis^catrina
29-04-06, 04:47 PM
^^^ I told you I don't have an online source. If you have a source that says oral sex is rape and deserves a mandatory death penalty in Islam, then that is absolutely great!
Anyway those are my opinions, you don't have to agree with them. But I think people need to be realistic and look at KSA for example.
Anyway, as I can see, more than 70% have voted for yes :)
alhamdulillah :)
sheik-al-Tort
29-04-06, 04:57 PM
I'm afraid you are wrong Queen. The Law in England is based initially on laws going back to when the country was Catholic as well as Roman law. For instance the Romans had very civilised laws on noise abatement even before Christ. for instance it was illegal to drive a chariot through the streets of Rome after 7pm. The rest of English law was until we joined the EU based on case law - i.e. experienced judgements. The recent **** up by the Home office in releasing foreign murderers and rapists has nothing to do with the legal system.
The legal system in RSA is considered backward as it allows torture to extract confessions. Confessions extracted by torture are not admissable as evidence in UK courts.
, and hitman as you were unable to provide any statistics covering RSA, and the rest of the Arab world, nothing has been proved other than there is crime in every country under the sun, the extent of which is not admitted in many neo-theocratic dictatorships.
what about devorce? signing all those papers
it's all human rules nothing taken from the bible
According to the Torah the man needs to write a bill of divorcement, or Get.
ToomuchaT
29-04-06, 06:08 PM
No. They did not steal, because of their attitudes. They had a great fear of God and they had a great respect for the law.
.. first.. i conclude that there is no wrong with the islamic law!! that's good.
.. 2nd..so the islamic law works and only works if and only if two components were achieved: Fear of the law-maker which is Alah in this case. PLUS the individuals attitudes!.. that's good.
.. where did the non-islamic laws score to "beat" the islamic law??
sophis^catrina
29-04-06, 07:25 PM
.. where did the non-islamic laws score to "beat" the islamic law??
I did not point out that it beats islamic law. I was pointing out that islamic law is too limited and not well developed and does not encompass everything it needed to keep up with the modern world. A small example, is that it is only recently that Islamic banks have risen, and Oman still does not have any. It is only now that they have recently build an islamic economics university, so my point is the modern shariah law is still at beginner level and it needs more modern specialists to be advanced, so that we apply it it becomes a blessing rather than moving back centuries.
I remember in Canada the Muslims there were thinking of imposing Sharia Law for the Muslim community, when it comes to family affairs. Strangely enough the Muslim women did not want this, because they felt that they would lose a lot of their rights. Anyway it was not passed though. But I think from the attitude of the Muslim women, that they would rather go to western legal system, etc coz they felt they would get justice there, shows that there are still development issues in the Shariah court.
Pineapple Thief
29-04-06, 07:37 PM
Whatever you say, apparently the Saudis believe they are implimenting Shariah Law.
Ok I see your point - that since they beleive they are implementing it, it is a form of implementation.
But implementation of true sharia law - whatever that may be - would it have better results? I suspect it might. But obviously I cant say. And we have to remember, in this day and age, people are used to a certain system of law and our whole social fabric is to some degree dependent on that. An INSTANT switch to sharia wouldnt have immediate results, nor probably medium term results.
Pineapple Thief
29-04-06, 07:40 PM
I think we can see KSA, who do implement the Shariah Law, but recently the crime rates have been increasing because of unemployment and poverty.
Which is a point, sharia must be implemented (when it comes to criminal law), but sharia must also be implemented when it comes to trade, welfare, economics, etc. You cant have one without the rest and expect to get a fully functional society.
Pineapple Thief
29-04-06, 07:41 PM
But I think people need to be realistic and look at KSA for example.
^^^^ see my above posts :)
sophis^catrina
29-04-06, 07:41 PM
Ok I see your point - that since they beleive they are implementing it, it is a form of implementation.
But implementation of true sharia law - whatever that may be - would it have better results? I suspect it might. But obviously I cant say. And we have to remember, in this day and age, people are used to a certain system of law and our whole social fabric is to some degree dependent on that. An INSTANT switch to sharia wouldnt have immediate results, nor probably medium term results.
What is true Shariah to you? The Wahabi way, the Ibadhi way, the Sunni way, the Shiaa way?
Everybody who imposes Shariah will claim they are imposing real shariah! :D
That's how people will use the law for their own politics. :cute: Like the Saudis, for example, who say that women should not drive because it is aganst the Shariah. :cute:
sophis^catrina
29-04-06, 07:42 PM
Which is a point, sharia must be implemented (when it comes to criminal law), but sharia must also be implemented when it comes to trade, welfare, economics, etc. You cant have one without the rest and expect to get a fully functional society.
Look at my post #136.
Pineapple Thief
29-04-06, 07:48 PM
Yep agreed, post 136. True Sharia law to me, I dont know. I meant 'ideal' sharia law, as its meant to be...which is why I said 'whatever that is'.
ToomuchaT
29-04-06, 09:34 PM
I was pointing out that islamic law is too limited and not well developed and does not encompass everything it needed to keep up with the modern world. A small example, is that it is only recently that Islamic banks have risen, and Oman still does not have any. It is only now that they have recently build an islamic economics university, so my point is the modern shariah law is still at beginner level and it needs more modern specialists to be advanced, so that we apply it it becomes a blessing rather than moving back centuries.
.. that's true.. and i think that because we depend on the new commin laws, then when we see them do not suit us, we start to think to go back to what we have and develop them!!
sheik-al-Tort
30-04-06, 02:34 AM
I read today that the Saudis have agreed to let women sell underwear. Up until now it has been men.
Bright lot!
I read today that the Saudis have agreed to let women sell underwear. Up until now it has been men.
Bright lot!
wut?!:eh: where did u read this? i don't think men sold ladys underwear in Saudi! that's not possible..especially in Saudi Arabia!..no way :os
could you give us the link to the source plz?
sheik-al-Tort
30-04-06, 02:33 PM
Queen it was in yesterday's Daily Telegraph a UK newspaper. Normally a reliable source.
hmm i can only say.. weird! :)
it has nothing to do with islam
those people are wacko for banding women from driving cars
islam didn't order us to ban women from driving cars :eh: they make up their own rules
sophis^catrina
30-04-06, 03:55 PM
Actually Queen, Sheikh is right, in Saudia normally the men would sell ladies underwear. Except it seems that from the Telegraph the women have started to sell it!
hmm i can only say.. weird! :)
it has nothing to do with islam
those people are wacko for banding women from driving cars
islam didn't order us to ban women from driving cars :eh: they make up their own rules
Queen, like I was saying to PT before, everyone is going to say my version is the correct one, the difference is that you live in the modern world and you would interpet Islam differently, and their jurists (which is no different elsewhere, but it seems to be worst in our countries) still have an extremely ancient mentality, because they are extremely old men who proably just had a mere religious education and don't much about the outside world, that's why a lot of these rules sound to us in desperate need to be overruled.
That was why in this whole thread I was saying it is better currently to use shariah with another legal system to keep up with the modern world, until we have enough modern specialists who can alter the advanced system to suit our needs (e.g. the banking system they've already started with that), coz I don't think anybody want to start having ancient rules governing us, like KSA.
In religion there isn't a correct or incorrect way. It's to do with understanding and mentality of the individual. An educated person would interpret religion differently from a uneducated one, someone who lived 100 years ago, would interpret it differently from someone living now, etc. There is no right or wrong way, it depends on the individual's understanding and view of it, that is why we have different schools of thought.
sophis^catrina
30-04-06, 04:27 PM
.. that's true.. and i think that because we depend on the new commin laws, then when we see them do not suit us, we start to think to go back to what we have and develop them!!
Actually I was reading when it comes to Qatar, they've merged both the civil (english common law) and Islamic courts together (that is to create a single court of appeal), which I think is the way forward, rather than having two different courts of appeal. You get an advanced system, but I think slowly the laws will alter to suit our muslim needs at the same time able to keep up with the modern world.
ToomuchaT
30-04-06, 06:58 PM
I read today that the Saudis have agreed to let women sell underwear. Up until now it has been men.
Bright lot!
.. i think that's better than men do sell them to women .. so nothing wrong with that at all :)
sheik-al-Tort
30-04-06, 11:43 PM
I agree TooMuch - it merely demonstrates a degree of backwardness that women are considered inappropriate for commerce.
not unlike the UK 200 years ago
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