The Pope and the Koran

[IceTea]

The Pope and the Koran
by Daniel Pipes
New York Sun
January 17, 2006


Islam and Muslims are expected to be a priority for Pope Benedict XVI, but he has been publicly quite muted on these topics during his first nine months in office. One report, however, provides important clues to his current thinking.

Father Joseph D. Fessio, SJ, recounted on the Hugh Hewitt Show the details of a seminar he attended with the pope in September 2005 on Islam. Participants heard about the ideas of a Pakistani-born liberal theologian, Fazlur Rahman (1919-88), who held that if Muslims thoroughly reinterpret the Koran, Islam can modernize. He urged a focus on the principles behind Koranic legislation such as jihad, cutting off thieves' hands, or permitting polygyny, in order to modify these customs to fit today's needs. When Muslims do this, he concluded, they can prosper and live harmoniously with non-Muslims.

Pope Benedict reacted strongly to this argument. He has been leading such annual seminars since 1977 but always lets others speak first, waiting until the end to comment. But hearing about Fazlur Rahman's analysis, Father Fessio recalled with surprise, the pope could not contain himself:

This is the first time I recall where he made an immediate statement. And I'm still struck by it, how powerful it was. … the Holy Father, in his beautiful calm but clear way, said well, there's a fundamental problem with that [analysis] because, he said, in the Islamic tradition, God has given His word to Muhammad, but it's an eternal word. It's not Muhammad's word. It's there for eternity the way it is. There's no possibility of adapting it or interpreting it.

This basic difference, Pope Benedict continued, makes Islam unlike Christianity and Judaism. In the latter two religions, "God has worked through His creatures. And so, it is not just the word of God, it's the word of Isaiah, not just the word of God, but the word of Mark. He's used His human creatures, and inspired them to speak His word to the world." Jews and Christians "can take what's good" in their traditions and mold it. There is, in other words, "an inner logic to the Christian Bible, which permits it and requires it to be adapted and applied to new situations."

Whereas the Bible is, for Benedict, the "word of God that comes through a human community," he understands the Koran as "something dropped out of Heaven, which cannot be adapted or applied." This immutability has vast consequences: it means "Islam is stuck. It's stuck with a text that cannot be adapted."

Source (http://www.danielpipes.org/article/3281)

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Even Pope Benedict XVI believes that the Quran is the word of God and can't be changed. And prophet Mohammed is the last messanger.

[Superbia]

OMG this is very intresting .... and nice.

[IceTea]

It is and look at this:

This basic difference, Pope Benedict continued, makes Islam unlike Christianity and Judaism. In the latter two religions, "God has worked through His creatures. And so, it is not just the word of God, it's the word of Isaiah, not just the word of God, but the word of Mark. He's used His human creatures, and inspired them to speak His word to the world." Jews and Christians "can take what's good" in their traditions and mold it. There is, in other words, "an inner logic to the Christian Bible, which permits it and requires it to be adapted and applied to new situations."

That is why there are many Bibles today?

[Superbia]

i dont understand these ppl y3ni they knw dat islam is da proper and only religion but they still insist on other !

[amo_l_oman]

That thought has not to be interpreted in a positive way.
What the Pope meant is that Quran cannot be adapted to modern times.

[Pineapple Thief]

^^^
Im with Amo. I dont think hes saying yes Islam is a true religion from God, I think hes saying that Islam cannot change because this is what muslims believe, different from what we (they) believe.

I disagree with him. The Quran is open to interpretation - but not to the extent that certain people want.

[IceTea]

Anyway we don't need him or others to say Islam is the true religion because that is stated in the Quran itself.

[amo_l_oman]

We need an interfaiths dialogue and for that we need people to believe that Islam is alive and kicking and able to deal with every era.

[wudjab]

Anyway we don't need him or others to say Islam is the true religion because that is stated in the Quran itself.

but earlier


Even Pope Benedict XVI believes that the Quran is the word of God and can't be changed. And prophet Mohammed is the last messanger.

[IceTea]

Both are true.

[BrAiKi]

If you read the stories behind those who converted to Islam, U'll find that they're either priests who studied the Bible/Torah and then read something TRUE about Islam, then started to study the Quran and then converted to Islam...OR they are truth seekers, the type of people who wants the truth no matter if it disagrees with what they were believing in their whole life...

Many people find the truth and know inside what's right and what's wrong, But most of them are afraid to change, because alot of things change in a person's life if he/she converted to another religion...

However, I have met myself many sheiks who were christians and then converted to Islam, and when I ask them what made them convert, they say that they were encouraged to find the truth of everything since they were kids

[wudjab]

Many people find the truth and know inside what's right and what's wrong, But most of them are afraid to change, because alot of things change in a person's life if he/she converted to another religion...

One thing they don't have to fear about leaving Christianity is that some nutjob somewhere will put a death sentence on his head for Apostasy.

[BrAiKi]

Don't judge by the laws of nowadays, Judge by the laws that were followed during the time of prophet Mohammed, it was stated clearly that any muslim converts to another religion by his/her own will then nobody would do nothing to them, at the same time, when a person wants to convert to Islam he'd be asked many times if he's doing it by his/her own will, the latter is applied until this day in many countries


And again, wasn't christianity like that one day ?? I am referring to the middle ages again, once a man or a woman is suspected to be practicing another religion that christianity, he/she'd be questioned about their faith and if it was proved that he/she has converted, he/she would be killed....

I am tired of repeating my posts to you, from now on u'll be ignored if you ask me a question twice

[sheik-al-Tort]

Briaki you are right Christianity went through its dark age of ignorance iin the middle ages. Fortunately in the main it has recovered

[wudjab]

Please be clear.

1. Is apostasy punishible by death - yes or no.
2. Did the Prophet say that moslems who left Islam had to be put to death - yes or no.
3. If the Quran, the Sunnah and the Hadith the basis of all Islamic law - yes or no.
4. Are you saying that Islam is 600 years behind the times and thats the time it will take to enter the modern world - yes or no ?

[amo_l_oman]

Your ignorance is amusing.

The hadith on apostasy must be seen in historical context, death was given not only for leaving religion but also for being a traitor.

But as always you will say now that this is an excuse.

[wudjab]

Aha.

This is a new twist to the discussion.

Now we need to apply the 'historical context'.

Silly me, here we were believing that Islam was a religion for all peoples for all times.

[amo_l_oman]

Yeah

this is something i read while investigating on the issue and it makes sense.

I like to keep my brain healthy, no need to remain stuck on something for the sake of it.

[wudjab]

So you are saying that this comment of yours further up this page is no longer valid :

What the Pope meant is that Quran cannot be adapted to modern times.

[BrAiKi]

Briaki you are right Christianity went through its dark age of ignorance iin the middle ages. Fortunately in the main it has recovered

I am glad that you agree, and I agree with you, it is recovered...Islam is going through that phase these days, and it will recover eventually



1. Is apostasy punishible by death - yes or no.
2. Did the Prophet say that moslems who left Islam had to be put to death - yes or no.
3. If the Quran, the Sunnah and the Hadith the basis of all Islamic law - yes or no.
4. Are you saying that Islam is 600 years behind the times and thats the time it will take to enter the modern world - yes or no ?

1. No, but as amo said, if it was apostasy AND betrayal then its punished by death, even if it was betrayal only

2.No, evidence: he had a treaty with Quraish, one of its statements is that once a man apostatizes from Islam, he will return back from Madina to Quraish safely...

3.Quraan comes first. then sunna which is hadith and the prophet's actions

4.No, Islam laws never changed and will never change, it's people who may apply the right teachings or not, and as it's well known, Islam's Teachings suit for all the times and everywhere

[sheik-al-Tort]

Braiki does this mean you think Islam today is medieval?

[BrAiKi]

not Islam, the people understanding it the wrong way.... christian laws never changed since the middle ages, but look how different are the christians nowadays than those of the middle ages, still, both are/were following the same religion and had the same faith....

[sheik-al-Tort]

I see so what you are saying is that the average muslim is medieval then and not following the teachings as they were meant?


I wonder if you have spotted any such fellows on this board :)

[BrAiKi]

I was not and I am not pointing to anyone here in sabla, I am talking about some muslims in our community in general, and the number is reducing

[amo_l_oman]

So you are saying that this comment of yours further up this page is no longer valid :

What the Pope meant is that Quran cannot be adapted to modern times.

That quote has never been officially confirmed but interpreted that way, from the italian translation it was easier to understand it like that.
What he meant really, well you must ask him directly my dear.

[sheik-al-Tort]

I was not and I am not pointing to anyone here in sabla, I am talking about some muslims in our community in general, and the number is reducing


that's promissing then Braiki

[Mr Tickle]

Tea,

Where does the Pope say that Islam is the 'true' religion?

Where does the Pope say that the Koran is the word of God?

Lets look at what Father Joseph Fessio actually said about the converstation:

"That's one of the reasons. One of others, but his (the Pope's) seeing that distinction when the Koran, which is seen as something dropped out of heaven, which cannot be adapted or applied, even, and the Bible, which is a word of God that comes through a human community"

Notice the word "SEEN"?

[wudjab]

Good luck with that, Mr. P.

[Pineapple Thief]

Briaki you are right Christianity went through its dark age of ignorance iin the middle ages. Fortunately in the main it has recovered

Well yes and no, I agree with you, but for the sake of argument I'll bring up a figure like Pat Robertson ;)

But one could also argue that x-tianity has been somewhat 'watered down' and readjusted to take a secondary role, or even a tertiary role in the lives of people. A transformation to weaken christianity and strengthen, well, other aspects of our lives. A weakening of the threads that bind you to your maker, in exchange for threads that bind you to more worldly concerns. Now clearly this doesnt apply to all christians, but I suppose it can be argued it gives you a choice - which Islam tends not to do. This might be argued as a good thing or a bad thing, depending on how you look at it.

EDIT: Ive gotten my train of thought back. Perhaps today's religious disconnect makes it somewhat easier for people to be manipulated? Theres a quote I heard somewhere recently, "Everything in the world changes, except God."

[sheik-al-Tort]

Christianity today is very active but not in a rule based superficial way .
whereas more people went and worshipped in fear back in the middle ages, today Christians are often the first on the scene when disaster strikes and are quietly working behind the scenes to make things better for humanity. but I agree like in Islam there are real Christians and then those who follow the rules but whose hearts are evil. My contention is that there is less of that kind of hypocrisy in Christianity today than there was back in the days when everyone went to church out of fear.

It would appear that there are parallels with islam today

[BrAiKi]

Sheik, I'd say that you got the "my religion is the greatest" attitude :p but I agree with you in the part that christianity is working behind the scenes to make the world a better place, and so does Islam, and a muslim knows well that hypocrisy destroys the good deeds....However I can't disagree with you about the hypocrisy part, it exists in every religion... and behind the scenes deeds keep us away from that....Islam has many behind the scenes deeds as well, just like christianity, because both religions have the same fundamentals :)

[sheik-al-Tort]

Braiki with your attitude I'm sure that Christianity and Islam would have bountiful discussions. Unfortunately others on this board who are regular denigrators of Christianity will only serve to drive us apart.
It is my hope that voices like yours will be in the ascendancy over those of an arrogant disposition