View Full Version : The prophecy of The Torah
"I will raise them up a prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and I will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him." deut 18:18.
will start my topic with this question
- Who is that prophet ?
This thread's purpose is only to enlight us all, the Abrahemic religions followers, so please avoid judgmental statements and anything that might cause this thread to go off-topic, Thank you
Keep up the good work Braiki. And Christians will try to bring different excuses regarding that verse which is clear like a sunny day to whom it refers to.
Milliardo Peacecraft
13-04-06, 07:56 AM
Keep up the good work Braiki. And Christians will try to bring different excuses regarding that verse which is clear like a sunny day to whom it refers to.
No go. Let's look at the Duetoronomy 18. It starts off addressing the Letivitical priesthood of Israel; are you now insinuating that Mohammed came from that same Levitical priesthood? of course not, and nowhere is this referenced, either inside or outside Islam. If we take this into its rightful context then, what it simply means is that from the Levitical priesthood shall rise prophets like him (Moses) who will serve the house of Israel. How can that then be a reference to Mohammed?
nezitiC
13-04-06, 11:13 AM
Here is the answer fully explained to you MP , I read it all: Click (http://jamaat.net/muhinbible/muhinbible.html).
MP, you can also refer to below link it's all clear.
Muhammad in the Bible
(http://wings.buffalo.edu/sa/muslim/library/jesus-say/ch6.html)
- Who is that prophet ?
It is no prophet in particular. What is happening in Deut 18 is the Israelites are asking God not to speak to them directly anymore cause it scared the living daylights out of them. So God has said OK I will appoint a prophet for you at particular times so you can hear my words indirectly through them.
A true Prophet will be like Moses where God puts the words into their mouths, a false prophet will be one who says they are Gods words but aren't.
To read it in context..
18:15.A prophet will the LORD thy God raise up unto thee, from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;
18:16 according to all that thou didst desire of the LORD thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying: 'Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.'
18:17 And the LORD said unto me: 'They have well said that which they have spoken.
18:18 I will raise them up a prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee; and I will put My words in his mouth, and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
18:19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto My words which he shall speak in My name, I will require it of him
18:20 But the prophet, that shall speak a word presumptuously in My name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, that same prophet shall die.'
kara, it's impossible that the lines are not talking about a prophet that's coming, and it's true to Islam that Allah spoke to prophet Moses directly, and he's the only prophet who had this, the following two, Jesus and Mohammed peace upon them, God spoke to them undirectly, thro the angel Gabriel
one more thing, kara, why would God send a prophet to guide people if they're following the true teachings of the Torah ?
Why would God send a prophet and put his words in his mouth, if the words of god are already there and are not changed by man ??
kara, it's impossible that the lines are not talking about a prophet that's coming, and it's true to Islam that Allah spoke to prophet Moses directly, and he's the only prophet who had this, the following two, Jesus and Mohammed peace upon them, God spoke to them undirectly, thro the angel Gabriel
I didn't say that it was about a prophet that hasn't come yet. The truth is its for prophets that have been and that are to come. Like I said it is about no prophet in particular.
one more thing, kara, why would God send a prophet to guide people if they're following the true teachings of the Torah ?
If you know anything of the Tanakh it is riddled with verses of the children of Israel going astray. The prophets were appointed to bring them back and to also maintain the Law. I guess they were kind of like a Rabbi and policeman roled into one.
Why would God send a prophet and put his words in his mouth, if the words of god are already there and are not changed by man ??
It doesn't mean they were following the Law. God had to remind them that they were going astray, and they had already asked God not to speak to them directly so God used prophets as his spokesmen.
The truth is its for prophets that have been and that are to come. Like I said it is about no prophet in particular.
If you read the verse again you will see it referes to ONE prophet only because it says "prophet" and not "prophets", it also says 'his mouth' and also words like 'he and his'.
So as you can see all these words refer to one person and not many, do you agree?
So as you can see all these words refer to one person and not many, do you agree?
It does say prophet, but this is the language of the Torah..and there were many prophets after Moses for every generation.. and all who fit that description.
If it is only one prophet then who is the false prophet the verse speaks of?
It does say prophet, but this is the language of the Torah..and there were many prophets after Moses for every generation.. and all who fit that description.
If it is only one prophet then who is the false prophet the verse speaks of?
Give us an examples of prophets who fit that description?
I think there are some false prophets who claim they are prophets, but not sure about the names.
Give us an examples of prophets who fit that description?
Isaiah, Jeremiah, Samuel, Elijah, Joel, Habbakuk, Ezekiel, Micah, Amos to name a few..
I think there are some false prophets who claim they are prophets, but not sure about the names.
Wait a second it says false prophet not prophets :)
Isaiah, Jeremiah, Samuel, Elijah, Joel, Habbakuk, Ezekiel, Micah, Amos to name a few..
What is the common between them? example are they are jews, etc.
And what is the definition of "Brethren" in Hebrew?
Wait a second it says false prophet not prophets :)
It says 'But the prophet' so it means any prophet who claim to be a prophet ..
Example: if you are a teacher and you want to give instructions to your student before exam starts, so you say to them:
The student who caught cheating will be kicked out. So it can be any student who do that act. ;)
that was my next question.... God said I will raise them a prophet from among their brethren... not "from among them"
there's a point from this... Can any christian/jewish explain this ?
sheik-al-Tort
14-04-06, 10:35 PM
Very simple Braiki - there bretheren would be their own kind - probably therefore jewish
What is the common between them? example are they are jews, etc.
Well yes, actually they are Israelites. They are also true prophets who were appointed by God to be Gods spokesperson.
And what is the definition of "Brethren" in Hebrew?
The word it Achim.. Ach = Brother, im makes it a plural. By this stage it refers to the twelve tribes of Israel, who originated from Jacobs twelve sons.
Also look at verse Deut 18:15 where is says "A prophet will the LORD thy God raise up unto thee, from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;"
It says 'But the prophet' so it means any prophet who claim to be a prophet ..
Example: if you are a teacher and you want to give instructions to your student before exam starts, so you say to them:
The student who caught cheating will be kicked out. So it can be any student who do that act.
So if you can apply this reasoning to verse 18:20, why not to verse 18:18?
Well yes, actually they are Israelites. They are also true prophets who were appointed by God to be Gods spokesperson.
But the Bible specifically denies that this awaited prophet will be a Jew.
"And there arose NOT a prophet since in Israel LIKE unto Moses."
Deuteronomy 34:10
The word it Achim.. Ach = Brother, im makes it a plural. By this stage it refers to the twelve tribes of Israel, who originated from Jacobs twelve sons.
Also look at verse Deut 18:15 where is says "A prophet will the LORD thy God raise up unto thee, from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;"
We will come to this point when we finish with the first point above.
So if you can apply this reasoning to verse 18:20, why not to verse 18:18?
Can't be applied because they are different.
Very simple Braiki - there bretheren would be their own kind - probably therefore jewish
I think you know that Ishmail, Abraham's son is one of the great grandfathers of Prophet Mohammed PBUH, so the word "brethren" might meant the seeds of prophet Isehaq's (Isiah in the torah i think) brother, Ishmail....
Plus the the word Brethren was used somewhere in the Torah to reffer for Ishmail's sons, Ice Tea if you could find it then please Quote it, I will look for it when I can...
But the Bible specifically denies that this awaited prophet will be a Jew.
"And there arose NOT a prophet since in Israel LIKE unto Moses."
Deuteronomy 34:10
You forgot the rest and the key part of that verse "whom the LORD knew face to face; " and no there has never been a prophet after Moses who saw and spoke to God face to face from among the Israelites.
Can't be applied because they are different.
No they are not different, they are all part of the same Law regarding true prophets and fasle prophets. If its a true prophet then you must listen to them, if its a false one you must put them to death.
You forgot the rest and the key part of that verse "whom the LORD knew face to face; " and no there has never been a prophet after Moses who saw and spoke to God face to face from among the Israelites.
God never spoke to a prophet face to face, because humans can't see God.
No they are not different, they are all part of the same Law regarding true prophets and fasle prophets. If its a true prophet then you must listen to them, if its a false one you must put them to death.
But verse 18:18 is talking about one prophet only, you are mixing things again.
God never spoke to a prophet face to face, because humans can't see God.
Moses did, because God allowed him to see. Or will we be going off topic about Gods limitations?
But verse 18:18 is talking about one prophet only, you are mixing things again.
Its not talking about one prophet anymore than verse 18:20 is talking about one false prophet. You need a complete picture and verse 18:18 isn't complete without the verses before and after it. You can't take it piecemeal.
Moses did, because God allowed him to see. Or will we be going off topic about Gods limitations?
God told Moses 'you will not see me but look at the mountain and if the mountain remains in it's place you will see me', but when God appear to the mountain it get destroyed and Moses fell down.
Its not talking about one prophet anymore than verse 18:20 is talking about one false prophet. You need a complete picture and verse 18:18 isn't complete without the verses before and after it. You can't take it piecemeal.
Again if you compare verse 18:18, you will see words like He, his, a prophet, etc. The other verse is mentioning 'The prophet' which means any prophet. And I gave you the student example. Concentrate more and you will see the difference.
God told Moses 'you will not see me but look at the mountain and if the mountain remains in it's place you will see me', but when God appear to the mountain it get destroyed and Moses fell down.
Exodus
33:9 And it came to pass, when Moses entered into the Tent, the pillar of cloud descended, and stood at the door of the Tent; and [the LORD] spoke with Moses.
33:10 And when all the people saw the pillar of cloud stand at the door of the Tent, all the people rose up and worshipped, every man at his tent door. 33:11 And the LORD spoke unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he would return into the camp; but his minister Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the Tent.
Again if you compare verse 18:18, you will see words like He, his, a prophet, etc. The other verse is mentioning 'The prophet' which means any prophet. And I gave you the student example. Concentrate more and you will see the difference.
Verse 18:18 is referring to "a prophet" because they will be appointed by God, a true prophet. The other verse by saying "the prophet" (btw doesn't mean any prophet) is making a distinction because "the prophet" is not a prophet at all.
Exodus
33:9 And it came to pass, when Moses entered into the Tent, the pillar of cloud descended, and stood at the door of the Tent; and [the LORD] spoke with Moses.
33:10 And when all the people saw the pillar of cloud stand at the door of the Tent, all the people rose up and worshipped, every man at his tent door. 33:11 And the LORD spoke unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he would return into the camp; but his minister Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the Tent.
What actually happened descriped in below verse:
[2:55]And (remember) when you said: "O Mūsā (Moses)! We shall never believe in you until we see Allāh plainly." But you were seized with a thunder-bolt (lightning) while you were looking.
[2:56] Then We raised you up after your death, so that you might be grateful.
And in another verse:
[7:155] And Mūsā (Moses) chose out of his people seventy (of the best) men for Our appointed time and place of meeting, and when they were seized with a violent earthquake, he said: "O my Lord, if it had been Your Will, You could have destroyed them and me before; would You destroy us for the deeds of the foolish ones among us? It is only Your Trial by which You lead astray whom You will, and keep guided whom You will. You are our Walī (Protector), so forgive us and have Mercy on us: for You are the Best of those who forgive.
The other story when God spoke to Moses which I explained before:
[7:142] And We appointed for Mūsā (Moses) thirty nights and added (to the period) ten (more), and he completed the term, appointed by his Lord, of forty nights. And Mūsā (Moses) said to his brother Hārūn (Aaron): "Replace me among my people, act in the Right Way (by ordering the people to obey Allāh and to worship Him Alone) and follow not the way of the Mufsidūn (mischief-makers)."
[7:143] And when Mūsā (Moses) came at the time and place appointed by Us, and his Lord spoke to him; he said: "O my Lord! Show me (Yourself), that I may look upon You." Allāh said: "You cannot see Me, but look upon the mountain; if it stands still in its place then you shall see Me." So when his Lord appeared to the mountain, He made it collapse to dust, and Mūsā (Moses) fell down unconscious. Then when he recovered his senses he said: "Glory be to You, I turn to You in repentance and I am the first of the believers."
We are discussing what is written in the Torah, not the Quran.
I have to tell you the truth. As the holy Quran is the only book which remains un changed.
Back to the topic, based on this vesre, do you agree that the awaited prophet can't be jew?
"And there arose NOT a prophet since in Israel LIKE unto Moses".
Back to the topic, based on this vesre, do you agree that the awaited prophet can't be jew?
"And there arose NOT a prophet since in Israel LIKE unto Moses".
It can be anyone from the 12 tribes of Israel. 10 are unaccounted for so yes it may not be a Jew.
Anyway I have already stated that you have not quoted all of that verse and the most important part which sets aside Moses from the later Prophets, despite what the Quran says we are discussing what is in the Torah and unless you can pin point what has been changed.. then what the Quran says in regard to Moses verses the Torah is null and void.
sheik-al-Tort
16-04-06, 07:34 PM
What I cannot undertand Ice TEa is why you attempt to use the Old Testament to justify yoiur assertions about Mohammed, and at the same time spend many hours denigrating both Judaism and Christianity and pouring scorn on their teachings?
Why can't you learn to respect non muslims and get on with your own life as a muslim? Stop trying to justify your assertions that Islam is the biggest, the best, the one true etc. I am happy for you to be a muslim, why can't you accpet that others have their own path to God that might not fit neatly with your own narrow perspective of the World and beyond?
I hope you don't go down the same twisted vitriolic and assinine path that Sting and Hitman have fallen.
I suspect you are at a cross roads. Choose wisely my friend.
tel_aviv
03-05-06, 05:17 PM
This Thread is the Stupidest on earth and must be removed !!
sheik-al-Tort
03-05-06, 05:30 PM
Hi Tel - hang around abit longer and you'll see a lot barmier
tel_aviv
03-05-06, 05:50 PM
Hi ! sheik i thought you are Muslim !?
What is stupid about it?
And sheik is christian the last time I checked.
sheik-al-Tort
03-05-06, 06:08 PM
Things ain't what they seem Telly
tel_aviv
03-05-06, 06:17 PM
What is stupid about it?
And sheik is christian the last time I checked.
you must apologize now and this thread will be removed !!
you still didn't give us a reason why this thread is the stupidest
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