View Full Version : Why Different Bibles?
Why do christians have different bibles?
sheik-al-Tort
02-04-06, 03:43 PM
They don't
o yes they do, i myself have 2 different bibles
Dark Project
02-04-06, 04:34 PM
Different authors and different churches and school of thoughts I guess . Some say its one but 24,000 different translations !!
Why are there Sunnis and Shias and all the other sects ?
Why are there Sunnis and Shias and all the other sects ?
wudjab, either you are like that or actually you need to be axplained more than once!!
your answer yet AGAIN is off topic, you can open a thread about shia/sunna or whatever to get your answer
now stick to the topic!!
however, you will be glad to know that sunna/shia or any other sect, they all have the SAME quran :)
but why different bibles?
You got it. I have opened a separate topic.
Does the messate in each of these 'different Bibles' vary - for examples, in Bible A is the message 'Kill your enemies' and in Bible B 'Love your enemies' ?
We do not say that God delivered the Bible directly to man, like the Quran (for which there is no proof anyway). The Bible is the Word of God, written down by man.
If all the Bibles carry exactly the same message. then the exact language does not matter.
If you can show me two Bibles with exactly different meanings, we have a basis for discussion.
If not, you are simply trolling for bigoted comment.
sheik-al-Tort
02-04-06, 11:08 PM
Wudjab absolutely 100% spot on
Hitman are you 'sting' by any chance? You seem to have a rather puerile view of religion and Christianity in particular
CrazyReD
02-04-06, 11:09 PM
ok could you also talk about how there's a new testomint and an old one
and are they all translated the same way?
oh and what proof is there (besides faith) that as you put "The Bible is the Word of God, written down by man."
as for proof of the quran Arabic was the language it came in and back in that time Quraish (the tribe) were concidered the best when it came to arabic. However, when the Quran came it challanged them to write something similar to which they couldn't. The prophet was illitrate how can he all of the sudden be so knowledgable and many others but thats offtopic
Hitman are you 'sting' by any chance?
im not, but someone in here is "sanwin25"
stay on the topic kindly
I had exactly the same question (re Sting), Sheik.
I hope you got the answer you were looking for, Hitman.
Lets see, you've touched on Christianity, Judaism.
Maybe Hindus, Buddhists, Mormons can be next.
arent mormons christians as well wudjab (sanwin25)?
CrazyReD
03-04-06, 12:32 AM
anyone care to address my q's?
You can please drop your sanwiin act. You as a mod should know better.
Mormons are technically not christians.
The Old Testament is the revelatons upto Jesus Christ.
Faith is all anyone has to believe any religion. It does not matter if the religion is Islam or Christianity, neither can prove anything without reliance on faith.
ok could you also talk about how there's a new testomint and an old one
and are they all translated the same way?
The new testament and what people call the old testament are not the same book and are never to be confused.
The obvious problem with translations is some words can't be translated properly. An example that comes to mind is when the Tanakh was translated into Greek they interpretted the word alma (heb for young woman) to parthenos (gr for virgin). And then more problems arise when the translated version gets translated into another language. From Isaiah 7:14
Masoretic (from Hebrew)
"Assuredly, my Lord will give you a sign of His own accord! Look, the young woman is with child and about to give birth to a son. Let her name him Immanuel."
New International Version (probably from the greek LLX)
"Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel."
oh and what proof is there (besides faith) that as you put "The Bible is the Word of God, written down by man."
I should firstly say that I will comment on the Tanakh only...
Not all the books of the Tanakh are Gods words written by man. Some like the Psalms for example are mans words. The Torah was written down by Moses because God told him to do it. Throughout the prophetic writings you will see written something like "And the Lord said to _____"
But somehow I think you are actually questioning the divinity of the prophets books from an external source.
Her XLNC
03-04-06, 02:44 AM
however, you will be glad to know that sunna/shia or any other sect, they all have the SAME quran :)
but why different bibles?
tell me if im off-topic here...its true they all have the SAME quran...but they do have different beliefs dont they??
check this out many bibles just choice
check the link here (http://www.flickr.com/photos/rwentzel/113539997/)
in this link http://www.biblerecords.com/bibles.html a bunch of bibles...:)
Based on a transcript of a lecture by Dr. Gary Miller
The Bible is a collection of writings by many different authors. The Qur'an is a dictation. The speaker in the Qur'an - in the first person - is God talking directly to man. In the Bible you have many men writing about God and you have in some places the word of God speaking to men and still in other places you have some men simply writing about history. The Bible consists of 66 small books. About 18 of them begin by saying: This is the revelation God gave to so and so… The rest make no claim as to their origin. You have for example the beginning of the book of Jonah which begins by saying: The word of the Lord came to Jonah the son of Elmitaeh saying… quote and then it continues for two or three pages.
If you compare that to one of the four accounts of the life of Jesus, Luke begins by saying: “many people have written about this man, it seems fitting for me to do so too”. That is all… no claim of saying “ these words were given to me by God here they are for you it is a revelation”, there is no mention of this.
The Bible does not contain self-reference, that is, the word 'Bible' is not in the Bible. Nowhere does the Bible talk about itself. Some scriptures are sometimes pointed to in the Bible, say: Here where it talks about itself, but we have to look closely. 2nd Timothy 3:16 is the favourite which reads: “All scripture is inspired of God” and there are those who would say, here is where the Bible it talks about itself, it says it is inspired of God, all of it. But if you read the whole sentence, you read that this was a letter wrote by Paul to Timothy and the entire sentence says to Timothy: “Since you were a young man you have studied the holy scriptures, all scriptures inspired by God” and so on… When Timothy was a young man the New Testament did not exist, the only thing that stems he was talking about are scriptures – which are only a portion of the Bible - from before that time. It could not have meant the whole Bible.
There is at the end of the Bible a verse which says: “Let anyone who takes away from this book or adds to this book be cursed”. This to is sometimes pointed to me saying: Here is where it sums itself as a whole. But look again and you will see that when it says: Let no one change this book, it is talking about that last book, number 66, the Book of Revelation. It has too, because any reference will tell you that the Book of Revelation was written before certain other parts of the Bible were written. It happens today to be stacked at the end, but there are other parts that came after, so it can not be referring to the entire book.
It is an extreme position held only by some Christian groups that the Bible – in its entirety - cover to cover is the revealed word of God in every word, but they do a clever thing when they mention this, or make this claim. They will say that the Bible in its entirety is the word of God; inerrant (no mistakes) in the original writings. So if you go to the Bible and point out some mistakes that are in it you are going to be told: Those mistakes were not there in the original manuscript, they have crept in so that we see them there today. They are going on problem in that position. There is a verse in the Bible Isaiah 40:8 which in fact is so well known that some Bibles printed it on the inside front cover as an introduction and it says : “ The grass weathers, the flower fades, but the word of our God stands forever”. Here is a claim in the Bible that the word of God will stand forever, it will not be corrupted, it won't be lost. So if today you find a mistake in the Bible you have two choices. Either that promise was false that when God said my word wont fade away, he was mistaken, or the portion which has the mistake in it was not a part of the word of God in the first place, because the promise was that it would be safeguarded, it would not be corrupted.
I have suggested many times that there are mistakes in the Bible and the accusation comes back very quickly: Show me one. Well there are hundreds. If you want to be specific I can mention few. You have for example at 2nd Samuel 10:18 a description of a war fought by David saying that he killed 7000 men and that he also killed 40000 men on horsebacks. In 1st Chronicles 19 it mentions the same episode saying that he killed 70000 men and the 40000 men were not on horsebacks, they were on foot. The point be what is the difference between the pedestrian and not is very fundamental.
Matthew 27:5 says that Judas Iscariot when he died he hung himself. Acts 1 says that no he jumped off a cliff head first. If you study Logic very soon you will come in your course to what they call an “undecidable propositions” or “meaningless sentences” or statements that can not be decided because there is no contextual false. One of the classic examples sited is something called the Effeminites paradox. This man was Cretan and he said “Cretans always lie”, now was that statement true or false? If he was a Cretan and he says that they always lie is he lying? If he is not lying then he is telling the truth then the Cretans don’t always lie ! You see it can not be true and it can not be false, the statement turns back on itself. It is like saying “What I am telling you right now is a lie” would you believe that or not? You see the statement has no true content. It can not be true and it can not be false. If it is true it is always false. If it is false it is also true.
Well in the Bible at Titus 1:12 the writer is Paul and he is talking about the Cretans. He says that one of their own men – a prophet - said “Cretans always lie” and he says that what this man says is true. It is a small mistake, but the point is that it is a human mistake, you don’t find that if you carefully examine the true content of that statement. It can not be a true statement.
Now I come back to the Qur'an, and as I mentioned the speaker in the Qur'an is - in the first person - is God. The book claims throughout that it is the word of God. It names itself 70 times as the Qur'an. It talks about its own contents. It has self-reference. The Qur'an states in the first Sura after Fatiha that “This is the book, there is no doubt in it, it is a guidance for those who are conscious of God” and so on and so on… It begins that way and continues that way stressing that. And there is one very amazing statement in the Qur'an when you come to the fourth Sura 82nd Ayah which says to those who say Qur'an is something else than the word of God. It challenges them saying: “Have they not considered the Qur'an, if it came from someone other than God they will find in it many mistakes”. Some of you are students, would you dare to hand in a paper after you completed a research work or something at the bottom you put down there “You wont find mistakes in this”. Would you dare to challenge your professor that way?. Well the Qur'an does that. It is telling: If you really think you know where this came from then starts looking for mistakes because you wont find any. Another interesting thing the Qur'an does is that it quotes all its critics. There has never - in hundreds of years - ever been some suggestion as to where that book came from but that the Qur'an does not already mention that objection and reply to it. Many times you will find the Ayah saying something like: Do they say such and such and so, say to them such and such and so. In every case there is a reply. More than that the Qur'an claims that the evidence of its origin is in itself, and that if you look at this book you will be convinced.
So the difference in Christianity and Islam comes down to a difference of authority and appeal to authority. The Christian wants to appeal to the Bible and the Muslim wants to appeal to the Qur'an. You can not stop by saying: This is true because me book say it is, and somebody else would say something else is true because my book says differently, you can not stop at that point, and the Qur'an does not. The Christians may point to some words that it is recorded Jesus said and say this proves my point. But the Muslim does not simply open his book and say: No, no the Qur'an says this, because the Qur'an does not simply deny something the Bible says and say something else instead. The Qur'an takes the form of a rebuttal, it is a guidance as the opening says (Huda lil mutakeen). So that for every suggestion that the Christian may say: My Bible say such and such, the Qur'an will not simply say: No that is not true, it will say: Do they say such and such then ask them such and such. You have for example the Ayah that compares Jesus and Adam. There are those who may say that Jesus must have been God (Son of God) because he had no father. He had a woman who was his mother, but there was no human father. It was God that gave him life, so he must have been God’s son. The Qur'an reminds the Christian in one short sentence to remember Adam - who was his father ? - and in fact, who was his mother ? He did not have a father either and in fact he did not have a mother, but what does that make him? So that the likeness of Adam is the likeness of Jesus, they were nothing and then they became something; that they worship God.
So that the Qur'an does not demand belief - the Qur'an invites belief, and here is the fundamental difference. It is not simply delivered as: Here is what you are to believe, but throughout the Qur'an the statements are always: Have you O man thought of such and such, have you considered so and so. It is always an invitation for you to look at the evidence; now what do you believe ?
The citation of the Bible very often takes the form of what is called in Argumentation: Special Pleading.
Special Pleading is when implications are not consistent. When you take something and you say: Well that must mean this, but you don’t use the same argument to apply it to something else. To give an example, I have seen it in publications many times, stating that Jesus must have been God because he worked miracles. In other hand we know very well that there is no miracle ever worked by Jesus that is not also recorded in the Old Testament as worked by one of the prophets. You had amongst others, Elijah, who is reported to have cured the leper, raise the dead boy to life and to have multiplied bread for the people to eat - three of the most favourite miracles cited by Jesus. If the miracles worked by Jesus proved he was God, why don’t they prove Elijah was God ? This is Special Pleading, if you see what I mean. The implications are not consistent. If this implies that then in that case it must also imply the same thing. We have those who would say Jesus was God because he was taken up in the heaven. But the Bible also says the a certain Einah did not die he was taken up into the heaven by God. Whether it is true or not, who knows, but the point is if Jesus being taken up proves he is God, why does not it prove Einah was God? The same thing happened to him.
I wrote to a man one time, who wrote a book about Christianity and I had some of the objections I mentioned to you now. And his reply to me was that I am making matters difficult to myself, that there are portions in the Bible that are crystal clear and that there are portions that are difficult, and that my problem was that I am looking at the difficult part instead of the clear parts. The problem is that this is an exercise in self deception - why are some parts clear and some parts difficult? It is because somebody decided what this clearly means, now that makes this very difficult. To give you an example, John Chapter 14 a certain man said to Jesus: Show us God, and Jesus said: If you have seen me you have seen God. Now without reading on the Christian will say: See Jesus claimed to be God, he said if you have seen me you have seen God. If that is crystal clear then you have a difficult portion when you go back just a few pages to Chapter 5 when another man came to Jesus and said show us God and he said you have never seen God you have never heard his voice. Now what did he mean there if on the other occasion he meant that he was God? Obviously you have made matters difficult by deciding what the first one meant. If you read on in Chapter 14 you will see what he went on to say. He was saying the closest you are going to seeing God are the works you see me doing.
It is a fact that the words “son of God” are not found on the lips of Jesus anywhere in the first three Gospel accounts, he was always calling himself the Son of Man. And it is a curious form of reasoning that I have seen so often that it is established from Bible that he claimed to be God because - look how the Jews reacted. They will say for example he said such and such and the Jews said he is blaspheming, he claimed to be God and they tried to stone him. So they argue that he must have been claiming to be God because look ! - the Jews tried to kill him. They said that’s what he was claiming. But the interesting thing is that all the evidence is then built on the fact that a person is saying: I believed that Jesus was the son of God because the Jews who killed him said that’s what he used to say ! His enemies used to say that, so he must have said it, this is what it amounts to. In other hand we have the words of Jesus saying he would keep the law, the law of Moses and we have the statement in the Bible, why did the Jews kill him ? Because he broke the law of Moses. Obviously the Jews misunderstood him, if he promised he would keep the law, but they killed him because he broke the law, they must have misunderstood him, or lied about him.
When I talk about the Bible and quote various verses here and there I am often accused of putting things out of context, to say you have lifted something out of what it was talking about and given it a meaning. I don’t want to respond to the accusation as such, but it doesn’t seem to occur to many people that perhaps those who wrote portions of the Bible in the first place were guilty of the same thing. Maybe they – some of those writers - believed a certain thing and in order to prove it quoted from their scriptures – the Old Testament, the Hebrew writings - quoted out of context to prove their point. There are examples of that kind of thing. In Matthew 2 it said that a king wanted to kill the young child Jesus so he with his family went to Egypt, and they stayed there until that king died, and then they came back. When the writer of Matthew, whoever he was, because the name Matthew wont be found in the book of Matthew; when he described this event saying that he came back out of Egypt, he said: “ This was to fulfil a prophecy which is written” and then he quotes Hosea Chapter 11 “Out of Egypt I called my Son”. So he said because Jesus went to Egypt and then came back out of Egypt and we have this passage in the Hebrew scriptures “out of Egypt I called my son” Jesus must have been the son of God. If you look and see what he was quoting, Hosea 11:1 he quotes the second half of a complete sentence, the complete sentence reads: “When Israel was young I loved him and out of Egypt I called my son”. Israel the nation was considered as the son of God. Moses was told to go to Pharaoh and say to him: If you touch that nation of people, you touch my son; warning him, warning Pharaoh: don’t touch that nation, calling the nation “the son of God”. So that this is the only thing talked about in Hosea 11:1. “Out of Egypt I called my son” can only refer to the nation of Israel. I mentioned this point some months ago here in another talk, to which a young lady with us objected that Israel is a symbolic name for Jesus. You will have a hard time finding that anywhere in the Bible because it isn’t there. You can take an index of the Bible and lookup the word “Israel” everywhere the word occurs and you will find no where in any place that you can connect the word Israel with Jesus. But never mind - suppose it is true, read on, the second verse says “and after that he kept on worshipping Bal”, because this is what the Israelites were guilty of, very often they kept falling back into Idol worshipping. So if that “Israel” really meant Jesus and it means that Jesus is the son of God that came out of Egypt they must also mean that Jesus from time to time used to bow down to that idol Bal. You have to be consistent, and follow through on what it says. So the point is whoever wrote Matthew and Chapter 2 was trying to prove a point by quoting something out of context, and he undid himself, because if you follow through on it, it can not be so.
Now I can come back to the claim the Qur'an makes that it has internal evidence of its origin. There are many many ways that you can look at this. As one example, if I single out somebody here and say: You know, I know your father - he is going to doubt that, he has never seen me with his father. He would say, how does he look like, is he tall short does he wear glasses? and so on, and if I give him the right answers pretty soon he will get convinced, “Oh yes, you did meet him”. If you apply the same kind of thinking when you look at the Qur'an, here is a book that says it came from the one who was there when the universe began. So you should be asking that one: So tell me something that proves it. Tell me something that shows me you must have been there when the universe was beginning. You will find in two different Ayahs the statement that all the creation began from a single point, and from this point it is expanding. In 1978 they gave the Noble prize to two people who proved that thats the case. It is the big bang origin of the universe. It was determined by the large radio receivers that they have for the telephone companies which were sensitive enough to pick up the transmissions from satellites and it kept finding background noise that they could not account for. Until the only explanation came to be, it is the left over energy from that original explosion which fits in exactly as would be predicted by the mathematical calculation of what would be this thing if the universe began from a single point and exploded outwards. So they confirmed that, but in 1978. Centuries before that here is the Qur'an saying the heavens and the earth in the beginning they were one piece and split and says in another Ayah : “of the heavens we are expanding it”.
Let me tell you about a personal investigation, it occurred to me that there are a number of things you can find in the Qur'an that give evidence to its origin – internal evidence. If the Qur'an is dictated from a perfect individual; it originates with God, then there should not be any wasted space, it should be very meaningful. There should be nothing that we don’t need that you can cut off, and it should not be missing anything. And so that everything in there should really be there for a specific purpose. And I got to thinking about the Ayah which I mentioned before, it says, the likeness of Jesus is the likeness of Adam. It an equation, it uses the Arabic word (mithel), it says Jesus, Adam, equal. You go to the index of the Qur'an, you look up the name ISA it is in the Qur'an 25 times, you lookup the name Adam it is there 25 times. They are equal, through scattered references but 25 of each. Follow that through and you will find that in the Qur'an there are 8 places were an Ayah says something is like something else, using this (Mithel), you will find in every case and take both sides of it whatever that word is look it up in the index and it will be lets say 110 times and lookup the other word and it will be said to be equal to the same 110. That is quite a project of co-ordination if you try to write a book that way yourself. So that everywhere you happened to mention that such and such is like such and such that then you check your index, filing system, or your IBM punch cards or whatever, to make sure that in this whole book you mentioned them both the same number of times. But that’s what you will find in the Qur'an.
What I am talking about is built on a thing that is called in Logic: Use and Mention of a Word. When you use a word, you are using its meaning. When you mention a word, you are talking about the symbol without the meaning. For example, if I say Toronto is a big city - I used the word Toronto as I meant this place Toronto is a big city. But if I say to you Toronto has 7 letters, I am not talking about this place Toronto, I am talking about this word - Toronto. So, the revelation is above reasoning, but it is not above reason. That is to say we are more up not to find in the Qur'an something that is unreasonable, but we may find something that we would have never figured out for ourselves.
The author of this sentence said if this book came from someone besides God then you will find in it many Ikhtalafan (inconsistencies). The word Ikhtilaf is found many times in the Qur'an. But the word Ikhtalafan is only found once in the Qur'an. So there are not many Ikhtilafan in the Qur'an, there is only one - where the sentence is mentioned. So you see how things are put together perfectly. It has been suggested to mankind: Find a mistake. Man could not get hold of a mistake, and he is very clever, because this sentence could also mean: Find many Iktilafan and so he quickly goes to the index to see if he can find many of them and there is only one... Sorry clever person !
Milliardo Peacecraft
03-04-06, 11:54 AM
Why do christians have different bibles?
Christians don't ahve different Bibles; the books, passages, etc. are more or less the same. What you mean is why there are different translations, which would then be a different thing.
sheik-al-Tort
03-04-06, 01:16 PM
Quote from Marvel:So that the Qur'an does not demand belief - the Qur'an invites belief, and here is the fundamental difference. It is not simply delivered as: Here is what you are to believe, but throughout the Qur'an the statements are always: Have you O man thought of such and such, have you considered so and so. It is always an invitation for you to look at the evidence; now what do you believe ?''
This is an interesting position. One would be forgiven for being mistaken into thinking that Islam was very black and white, given the judgemental certainties with which many of its followers speak.
We do not say that God delivered the Bible directly to man, like the Quran (for which there is no proof anyway). The Bible is the Word of God, written down by man.
Whats the proof that the bible is the word of God written down by man !!:bored:
sheik-al-Tort
03-04-06, 11:56 PM
Same proof as the Qur'an I suspect
You hit the nail on the head, Sheik.
Unfortunately over here different religions need different levels of proof.
As you will probably find out very soon.
You hit the nail on the head, Sheik.
Unfortunately over here different religions need different levels of proof.
As you will probably find out very soon.
actually your bibles denials it self like
I have suggested many times that there are mistakes in the Bible and the accusation comes back very quickly: Show me one. Well there are hundreds. If you want to be specific I can mention few. You have for example at 2nd Samuel 10:18 a description of a war fought by David saying that he killed 7000 men and that he also killed 40000 men on horsebacks. In 1st Chronicles 19 it mentions the same episode saying that he killed 70000 men and the 40000 men were not on horsebacks, they were on foot. The point be what is the difference between the pedestrian and not is very fundamental.
Matthew 27:5 says that Judas Iscariot when he died he hung himself. Acts 1 says that no he jumped off a cliff head first. If you study Logic very soon you will come in your course to what they call an “undecidable propositions” or “meaningless sentences” or statements that can not be decided because there is no contextual false. One of the classic examples sited is something called the Effeminites paradox. This man was Cretan and he said “Cretans always lie”, now was that statement true or false? If he was a Cretan and he says that they always lie is he lying? If he is not lying then he is telling the truth then the Cretans don’t always lie ! You see it can not be true and it can not be false, the statement turns back on itself. It is like saying “What I am telling you right now is a lie” would you believe that or not? You see the statement has no true content. It can not be true and it can not be false. If it is true it is always false. If it is false it is also true.
Well in the Bible at Titus 1:12 the writer is Paul and he is talking about the Cretans. He says that one of their own men – a prophet - said “Cretans always lie” and he says that what this man says is true. It is a small mistake, but the point is that it is a human mistake, you don’t find that if you carefully examine the true content of that statement. It can not be a true statement.
dunno is it God who delivered the Bible directly to man, so it came with all of this mistakes?
and where is the Bible writen ? i mean where did you came with the bible name it isn't mentioned in your bible it self?
i have a bunch of questions........many things in the bible isn't clear..!!
3:23 Yeshua himself, when he began to teach, was about thirty years old, being the son (as was supposed) of Joseph, the son of Eli, 3:24 the son of Matthat, the son of Levi, the son of Melchi, the son of Jannai, the son of Joseph, 3:25 the son of Mattithiah, the son of Amos, the son of Nahum, the son of Esli, the son of Naggai, 3:26 the son of Maath, the son of Mattithiah, the son of Shimei, the son of Joseph, the son of Judah, 3:27 the son of Yochanan, the son of Rhesa, the son of Zerubbabel, the son of Shealtiel, the son of Neri, 3:28 the son of Melchi, the son of Addi, the son of Cosam, the son of Elmodam, the son of Er, 3:29 the son of Yosi, the son of Eliezer, the son of Jorim, the son of Matthat, the son of Levi, 3:30 the son of Simeon, the son of Judah, the son of Joseph, the son of Jonan, the son of Eliakim, 3:31 the son of Maleah, the son of Manah, the son of Mattathah, the son of Nathan, the son of David, 3:32 the son of Jesse, the son of Obed, the son of Boaz, the son of Salmon, the son of Nahshon, 3:33 the son of Amminadab, the son of Ram, the son of Hezron, the son of Perez, the son of Judah, 3:34 the son of Jacob, the son of Isaac, the son of Abraham, the son of Terah, the son of Nahor, 3:35 the son of Serug, the son of Reu, the son of Peleg, the son of Eber, the son of Shelah, 3:36 the son of Kenan, the son of Arpachshad, the son of Shem, the son of Noah, the son of Lamech, 3:37 the son of Methuselah, the son of Enoch, the son of Jared, the son of Mahalalel, the son of Kenan, 3:38 the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.
Luke 3:23 - 3:28
1:1 A record of the genealogy of Yeshua the Messiah, the son of David, the son of Abraham. 1:2 Abraham became the father of Isaac. Isaac became the father of Jacob. Jacob became the father of Judah and his brothers. 1:3 Judah became the father of Perez and Zerah by Tamar. Perez became the father of Hezron. Hezron became the father of Ram. 1:4 Ram became the father of Amminadab. Amminadab became the father of Nahshon. Nahshon became the father of Salmon. 1:5 Salmon became the father of Boaz by Rahab. Boaz became the father of Obed by Ruth. Obed became the father of Jesse. 1:6 Jesse became the father of King David. David became the father of Solomon by her who had been the wife of Uriah. 1:7 Solomon became the father of Rehoboam. Rehoboam became the father of Abijah. Abijah became the father of Asa. 1:8 Asa became the father of Jehoshaphat. Jehoshaphat became the father of Joram. Joram became the father of Uzziah. 1:9 Uzziah became the father of Jotham. Jotham became the father of Ahaz. Ahaz became the father of Hezekiah. 1:10 Hezekiah became the father of Manasseh. Manasseh became the father of Amon. Amon became the father of Josiah. 1:11 Josiah became the father of Jechoniah and his brothers, at the time of the exile to Babylon. 1:12 After the exile to Babylon, Jechoniah became the father of Shealtiel. Shealtiel became the father of Zerubbabel. 1:13 Zerubbabel became the father of Abiud. Abiud became the father of Eliakim. Eliakim became the father of Azor. 1:14 Azor became the father of Zadok. Zadok became the father of Achim. Achim became the father of Eliud. 1:15 Eliud became the father of Eleazar. Eleazar became the father of Matthan. Matthan became the father of Jacob. 1:16 Jacob became the father of Joseph, the husband of Miriam, from whom was born Yeshua, who is called Messiah. 1:17 So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; from David to the exile to Babylon fourteen generations; and from the carrying away to Babylon to the Messiah, fourteen generations Matthew 1:1 - 1:17
I guess who wrote these(and claimed they were Luke's and Matthew's) are bad in memorizing names after all :)
CrazyReD
04-04-06, 02:20 AM
I'll just say one thing
which is off topic as long as you don't read the Quran in it's language you'll never really get it
translations suck
sheik-al-Tort
04-04-06, 02:33 AM
Ye shall know them by their fruits." Matt 7:16.
and
“Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.” Reminds me of one or two mullahs
The misplacing of a decimal point is a lttle pedantic. Jesus lead an exemplary life and I've already bored you with his key messages of compassion, forgiveness and humility.
And finally for all you pedants and hypocrites out there:
''And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thy say to thy brother, "Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?" Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.''
"Whosoever shall not receive the Kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein" (Luke 18:17).
Pineapple Thief
04-04-06, 03:08 AM
Theres this wonderful Martin Luther King Jr. sermon about how religion has three dimensions, or someting like that. I must post it sometime. Theres another good one about how any true religion must address the individual and the society equally, or something along those lines. Its good.
once again they are not answering the question it seems they are ignoring it cause they don't have an answer to it.........
seems that they ignored my reply, since it shows that different bibles have different family Tree For Jesus, and it seemed in Luke's bible that we got another son of God!
let me Quote what sheik said
Ye shall know them by their fruits." Matt 7:16.
I strongly AGREE with you sheik, in our Muslim countries, the adultery, stealing and crimes are CONSIDERABLY LESS than other countries!
the alchoholic and drug addicts statistics are LESS than other countries, n thats because of the teachings of Islam, These are the Fruits that Jesus PBUH was talking about
puhleez..
just because statistics are not published does not mean that crime does not exist.
muslims accept the books revealed to the earlier prophets
the problem is that the modern translations of the bible are corrupt
puhleez..
just because statistics are not published does not mean that crime does not exist.
where do you live ??? can you go out at midnight without the fear of being attacked by drunk people and/or theives ??? ask those who live/lived in the middle east, they'll tell you how safe it is :)
I was told myself by many westerns (2 canadians and an american to be exact) that the middle east is much safer than Canada and the US
Braiki, wudjab knows very well how safe Oman is :)
thats even better, people in oman don't get stopped by drunk people or theives at midnight, and am not saying that there are no theives at all, but they are much less than other non-muslim countries using the normalized numbers....
So yeah these are the seeds prophet Jesus Peace be upon him meant when he said that...
but still he didn't answer the question i'll queto them again :
dunno is it God who delivered the Bible directly to man, so it came with all of this mistakes?
and where is the Bible writen ? i mean where did you came with the bible name it isn't mentioned in your bible it self?
what he do is sneaking into another question....:D
Milliardo Peacecraft
05-04-06, 10:04 AM
dunno is it God who delivered the Bible directly to man, so it came with all of this mistakes?
Remember that the Bible is not a historical book; there are historical facts as well as some inaccuracies. The Bible isn't about history, but more on God's revelation of Jesus Christ. That is the Bible's point.
Milliardo Peacecraft
05-04-06, 10:08 AM
seems that they ignored my reply, since it shows that different bibles have different family Tree For Jesus, and it seemed in Luke's bible that we got another son of God!
The differences in genealogies show the different points that Matthew and Luke have with theri Gospels: Matthew wants to show Jesus to be a Jew's Jew, while Luke emphasizes on Jesus' identification with the whole human race, so highlighted that aspect of Him.
Milliardo Peacecraft
05-04-06, 10:10 AM
I strongly AGREE with you sheik, in our Muslim countries, the adultery, stealing and crimes are CONSIDERABLY LESS than other countries!
the alchoholic and drug addicts statistics are LESS than other countries, n thats because of the teachings of Islam, These are the Fruits that Jesus PBUH was talking about
Is this becauae of Christianity, or because of the West's denial of relgion in general? Note that humanistic philosophy has done much to erode the West's belief in religion.
where do you live ??? can you go out at midnight without the fear of being attacked by drunk people and/or theives ??? ask those who live/lived in the middle east, they'll tell you how safe it is :)
I was told myself by many westerns (2 canadians and an american to be exact) that the middle east is much safer than Canada and the USWorked 30 years to date going into the nicest neighborhoods to the worse ghettos in 7 cities all hours of the day/night and never had a problem.
You have no idea what you are talking about :rolleyes:
Again you come with this ... Islam stops crime ... without any statistics to back up your imaginary claims.
So when do you think that Islam crime stopping thing will start ... in the Sudan/Dufar region of Africa where muslims are killing at will? And we do have statistics for that ;)
sheik-al-Tort
05-04-06, 11:58 AM
but still he didn't answer the question i'll queto them again :
dunno is it God who delivered the Bible directly to man, so it came with all of this mistakes?
and where is the Bible writen ? i mean where did you came with the bible name it isn't mentioned in your bible it self?
what he do is sneaking into another question....:D
Marvel the answer is that God gave man key messages. Man wrote them down - just like the Koran.
Don't you think it's time you stopped attacking Christianity and Judaism. if you want me to take the gloves off -I will do, but you won't like it, and I'd rather not be tempted
Sheik, if bible is the word of god then why havent you accepted it as such & believe in jesus christ (pbuh)?
sheik-al-Tort
05-04-06, 06:18 PM
Hitman there are nuggets of God's truths embedded in the bible, but to see them and what lies beneath the surface is highly dependent on the state of the individual's spiritual maturity. In my opinion.
Strangely a few months ago when I asked what new truths were revealed in the Koran, no one could give me an answer otehr than - a reaffirmation of truths already revealed in the bible and new testament.
Given the 'quality' of muslim argument on this thread, I am not minded to look any further at the Koran. What is the point? It's followers appear to be anti everything except muslim, have a craving for some weird kind of vengeful justice and spend far too much time attacking christianity and judaism with trivial arguments.
This is my last word on this thread.
Strangely a few months ago when I asked what new truths were revealed in the Koran, no one could give me an answer otehr than - a reaffirmation of truths already revealed in the bible and new testament.
.
One of them is that jesus pbuh is not son of god or god. And Islam is the religion of Allah or the straight path.
sheik-al-Tort
05-04-06, 07:19 PM
I see. Exactly like Judaism then. If it doesn't add anthing new other than a disagreement with Christians over Jesus, then by definition, Islam = Judaism.
If that is not the case, then what is the new truth that wasn't spoken of by the Jews or Christians?
Or is it just an Arab credo wrapped up like religion and clothed in political ambition for world domination - like Jack suggests?
Sheik, not all the christians believe in the trinity & look at christ as the son :)
& there is no way you can compare judasim to islam, because judaism considers christ as an imposter
sheik-al-Tort
05-04-06, 08:59 PM
Which Christians don't believe in the trinity?
As for your assertion that the only difference between Judaism and Islam is that you apparently have some respect for Jesus, that aside and the manner of your worship - what's the big difference?
Also what has Islam revealed that is new? what has it revealed that wasn't already revealed by Judaism or Christianity?
So far I've heard nothing new. Unless its just the blind fear of thinking that's new or the particular story of Mohammed.
Actually jews and christians have something in common.
And the Jews say: 'Uzair (Ezra) is the son of Allâh, and the Christians say: Messiah is the son of Allâh. That is their saying with their mouths, resembling the saying of those who disbelieved aforetime. Allâh's Curse be on them, how they are deluded away from the truth!
They (Jews and Christians) took their rabbis and their monks to be their lords besides Allâh (by obeying them in things which they made lawful or unlawful according to their own desires without being ordered by Allâh), and (they also took as their Lord) Messiah, son of Maryam (Mary), while they (Jews and Christians) were commanded (in the Taurât (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)) to worship none but One Ilâh (God - Allâh) Lâ ilâha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He). Praise and glory is to Him, (far above is He) from having the partners they associate (with Him)."
To you your beliefs, to me mine.
sheik-al-Tort
05-04-06, 10:40 PM
Yet judging by the almost pyschotic reaction to cartoons, it would appear that modern day muslims almost worship Mohammed!
loooooool sheik I swear to God you made me laugh!
Nobody worships prophet Mohammed :PBUH: but we follow his teachings, n that's because God gave him those teachings, just like the jews when they followed prophet Moses's teachings...
Nobody elevated prophet Mohammed to God's level :)
Which Christians don't believe in the trinity?
my good friend john, hes a witness of jehova
The differences in genealogies show the different points that Matthew and Luke have with theri Gospels: Matthew wants to show Jesus to be a Jew's Jew, while Luke emphasizes on Jesus' identification with the whole human race, so highlighted that aspect of Him.
but still a family tree is a family tree, my name wouldn't be changed if I take it in any aspect would it ?
Is this becauae of Christianity, or because of the West's denial of relgion in general? Note that humanistic philosophy has done much to erode the West's belief in religion.
that's surely not because of christianity, but I was answering sheik when he quoted Jesus PBUH when he said "ye shall know them by their fruits" because we are the fruits of God's Islamic teachings :)
sheik-al-Tort
06-04-06, 02:27 AM
The fruits look pretty inedible from where I'm standing - so something must be wrong - if not with the teachings, then with the practices
The fruits look pretty inedible from where I'm standing - so something must be wrong - if not with the teachings, then with the practices
I'd compare to you our fruits and yours, but I'd be using the "my religion is better" attitude ;)
Marvel the answer is that God gave man key messages. Man wrote them down - just like the Koran.
Don't you think it's time you stopped attacking Christianity and Judaism. if you want me to take the gloves off -I will do, but you won't like it, and I'd rather not be tempted
1st of all i'm not attacking Christianty i do respect it,and i do for christian ppl too.......but when it comes to make funny things about islam sorry i can't stop.....
and by the way i'm asking question that i want to know about you Christians as you put your question to muslim to answer.....as simple as it is.....
about jew well i can't help it sorry we have war with them from the days of prophet Mohammed :PBUH:.....can't tell you more about this but when Jesus alliah alsalam returns you will know what i mean.......jewish thinks they did kill him but they didn't......he is up waitting for the day that allah approve for him to come back to earth and do what he have been told and rules the place.....he will die on earth too...
about worship prophet Mohammed :PBUH: we follow his teachings ,he came for all the ppl on earth to invite them to islam he didn't came for spicific ppl as Jesus alliah alsalam and the rest of the prophets.......islam is flixable even after 2000 years it will suit it........
it's all planned, they will see the anti-christ and be amazed by his miracles and will worship him, and they will think that he is Jesus christ, the Jews will follow him as well, and many muslims will do too...and when the real Jesus comes nobody will believe him until the day he kills anti-christ....
I had this thought in my mind a looong time ago and then I read a book that talks about the same thing, the author is christian
Milliardo Peacecraft
06-04-06, 06:51 AM
but still a family tree is a family tree, my name wouldn't be changed if I take it in any aspect would it ?
Note that both Matthew and Luke aren't tracing as exactly as it should, since both have theological points why they made their genealogies that way. That's the point that should be considered.
means that what's in matthew's is different than that of luke :) means they're not exactly the same! thats my point
i talked to my friend john again, he just confirmed again that he denies trinity
Milliardo Peacecraft
07-04-06, 07:10 AM
i talked to my friend john again, he just confirmed again that he denies trinity
Oneness Pentecostals and Unitarians deny the Trinity. Of course, if one denies it, one has to suspect whether that person is Christian, since the Trinity is very a very basic tenet in Christianity.
PM, can you please Quote prophet Jesus Peace be upon him mentioning the trinity ?
Milliardo Peacecraft
07-04-06, 12:43 PM
PM, can you please Quote prophet Jesus Peace be upon him mentioning the trinity ?
I would rather direct you to an article discussing the Trinity: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15047a.htm Most of the pertinent passages regarding the Trinity are discussed there.
interesting link, but you see, I don't believe in such links even tho i read it, because they can twist the facts slightly and change the words....a direct quote from Jesus Peace be upon him telling us to worship the father, the son and the holy spirit at the same time will do :)
Milliardo Peacecraft
07-04-06, 02:55 PM
interesting link, but you see, I don't believe in such links even tho i read it, because they can twist the facts slightly and change the words....a direct quote from Jesus Peace be upon him telling us to worship the father, the son and the holy spirit at the same time will do :)
Braiki, it would not be possible to search for that since the word "Trinity" is not in the Bible. However, that doesn't mean it's not true. I think it's better to read the link posted as it will help you more in understanding it. If you don't like it, that's too bad for you, since it explains a lot.
I read it MP, but the thing I am trying to reach here is that christians should follow what prophet Jesus told them, and what's quoted by him in the bible, since he's not quoted mentioning the trinity and worshippin the father, the son and the holy spirit, then that increases the chances that he never claimed that!
Milliardo Peacecraft
08-04-06, 03:43 AM
I read it MP, but the thing I am trying to reach here is that christians should follow what prophet Jesus told them, and what's quoted by him in the bible, since he's not quoted mentioning the trinity and worshippin the father, the son and the holy spirit, then that increases the chances that he never claimed that!
First, where is it specifically stated that if it's not written, it should not be believed?
Oneness Pentecostals and Unitarians deny the Trinity. Of course, if one denies it, one has to suspect whether that person is Christian, since the Trinity is very a very basic tenet in Christianity.
I am quoting you here, why wouldnt the very very basic tenet in christianity be mentioned in the holy book ? I mean God would have mentioned it if it is something like the pillar of christianity!
I guess thats the reason why there are some sects that don't believe in the trinity
Milliardo Peacecraft
08-04-06, 02:35 PM
I am quoting you here, why wouldnt the very very basic tenet in christianity be mentioned in the holy book?
The Trinity wouldn't be an easy thing to grasp; as it is, Jesus Himself revealed it only in stages to the Apostles. Fundamentally as well, the Trinity is understood through faith. Understanding it as a whole will never be, since God is Mystery in Himself.
sheik-al-Tort
08-04-06, 03:33 PM
A very good answer Milliardo Peacecraft
Braiki -is every important tenet of Islam mentioned in the Quran ?
as always wudsinjab dropping a lot of question but when been questioned he dissapears :D and search for another topic....lovely
Einstien, this is discussion going on here. It is a thread based discussion.
Braiki made a point, I questioned it.
I know you are used to being told what to do, but thats not how thw world operates.
If you don't know how to participate in a discussion, stay away.
Einstein? Where is Einstein :)?!
WudJOb, it is intresting to enlighten us with such noble thoughts, but please, stop questioning others when u run away when u r questioned. Thats how the world works right?
why don't you answer befor your questions then you can see the point you want to ask about it......
or is it one sided questions?
I know you are used to being told what to do, but thats not how thw world operates.
realy prove it? :)
Einstein? Where is Einstein :)?!
he's lost now...:D
sheik-al-Tort
08-04-06, 09:51 PM
Marvel, Sting what a pair of planks!
Learn to think you might find it a refreshing change
Marvel, Sting what a pair of planks!
Learn to think you might find it a refreshing change
may allah show you the road of light.....
sheik-al-Tort
08-04-06, 10:27 PM
I hope he does Marvel but somehow I doubt very much it will be the narrow minded, judgemental potpourri that islam appears to be, if you are anything to go by
what I am trying to get here is that this might be another possibility that Jesus was monothesim
I am a truth seeker myself and believe me, I wouldn't stay muslim for one more minute if I get conviced in another religion, but I find it the most logical...
I dont blame you guys cause you guys read whatever is written about Islam and believe it, and lol when I saw what wujdi said in a previous post, I remember a priest who I asked few questions about what he thinks of Islam, he was like "atleast us christians believe that the three is one and each one of the three completes the whole character of God, but Muslims believe that there's ONE GOD and he HAS THREE DAUGHTERS which must be worshipped as well!" I just laughed and left the room!
Now I don't know from where people get such info... But then again, I encourage you guys to seek the truth by urselves and read the Holy Quran with it's explanation, without the help of a link that shows you whatever errors there are, because as I said before, the meanings of the verses can seem the opposit if you ommit one word or show part of the sentence
thank you!
I hope he does Marvel but somehow I doubt very much it will be the narrow minded, judgemental potpourri that islam appears to be, if you are anything to go by
as you can see sheik your reaction about what we are saying are making you feel uncomfortable.....like threads now and more....didn't you thought for a while why did we do all that.......you didn't like what we write about.....it's the same case that many won't say names do the same or i can say they began with it......as you are human we are too....you feel we too.......you don't like anyone to disrespect your beliefs we too do the same.....
you were calm but when it came to a point that you didn't like....here is the results.......here we share the same thing........
at last i can't force you to enter islam nor i can say i didn't enjoyed reading your words back but i just wanted you to be in the same situation that i'm in.....and you are now.....
may allah guide you to the right path......
I have a little 11 year old cousin, he once asked me, Hindus say their idols created us all, so he created their idols? I said them, he asked, so who created us? Their idols? :D
Also, I know another little kid, who said: Why Christians have so many books? Did they have different messengers sent to them?
Al Hamdulila, even kids in our society are smart enough to know and understand this.
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