Jesus PBUH and the Canaanite woman

[BrAiKi]

In the name of God



22
And behold, a Canaanite woman of that district came and called out, "Have pity on me, Lord***, Son of David! My daughter is tormented by a demon."
23
But he did not say a word in answer to her. His disciples came and asked him, "Send her away, for she keeps calling out after us."
24
10 He said in reply, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
25
But the woman came and did him homage, saying, "Lord, help me."
26
He said in reply, "It is not right to take the food of the children and throw it to the dogs."
27
She said, "Please, Lord, for even the dogs eat the scraps that fall from the table of their masters."
28
Then Jesus said to her in reply, "O woman, great is your faith! 12 Let it be done for you as you wish." And her daughter was healed from that hour.

Matthew 15: 19-28


*** Note that in arabic bible, it's written what means "Master" not Lord. Also, in ancient aarami and its derivatives: hebrew, arabic, etc.. The words "Master", "father", "Sir", "Lord" are synonems, so that, somehow, explains why it's written "Lord" in some books and it's written "Master" in other Languages. And that might mean that Jesus was not called "Lord" but "Master" which is what all the prophets were and still called

Chrsitians believe that Jesus :PBUH: is sent by God to forgive all the sins made by those who believe in him (Jesus :PBUH: )
but this episode shows that Jesus :PBUH: says by himself that he was sent to "the lost sheep of the house of Israel" which means that he was just a prophet to the children of Israel, no one else. However, this agrees with what the holy Qur'an says:


45. Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah.

46. "He shall speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. And he shall be (of the company) of the righteous."

47. She said: "O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?" He said: "Even so: Allah createth what He willeth: When He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it, 'Be,' and it is!

48. "And Allah will teach him the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel,

49. "And (appoint him) an apostle to the Children of Israel, (with this message): "'I have come to you, with a Sign from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by Allah.s leave: And I heal those born blind, and the lepers, and I quicken the dead, by Allah.s leave; and I declare to you what ye eat, and what ye store in your houses. Surely therein is a Sign for you if ye did believe;
Sorat Imran: (the House of Imran, the family of Jesus :PBUH: )45-49


Conclusion: this is one of the evidences that makes clear that Jesus :PBUH: NEVER claimed to be a God, and Never asked to be worshipped... If you have any comment that opposes this, then please post and enlighten us all

[MorphaKnight]

Still though.. some christians do pull up some verses in which Jesus says he is God.. i think..

[Dark Project]

Still though.. some christians do pull up some verses in which Jesus says he is God.. i think..

But .... Did he claim to be God !! Aren’t they sects in Christianity who believe Jesus :PBUH: was but a man sent as a messenger to them ! some believe he is the Son and some believe he is A God and some believe that they are not three but one in Three . Im not condeming here Just asking ...

[sheik-al-Tort]

Jesus said: "the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me…"-John 14:11
What this means is that the spirit of God and Jesus's soul were connected and merged.

Since early times most Christians have believed that Jesus was God made man, to share in the human experience anddemonstrate that despite being human it was possible to live perfectly as God intended.

My own personal view is that Jesus was a man who was completely immersed in God and therefore God spoke through him and gave him the power to heal and also rise again from the dead. God also spoke through him, so that when he said ''I forgive you your sins'', which of course outraged many orthodox Jews, it was really God saying ''i forgive you your sins''.

The trouble is,I think,that too many believers of Judaism, Christianity and Islam, only look at the surface, and take all words literally. In my opinion, the Truth that permeates these threee religions, is of a deeper spiritual nature.
In fact the debate about Jesus being God or not is a complete waste of time and focus. What is important is the messages that he gave us such as:

''Love thine enemies''
''Judge not lest ye be judged''
''whoever does this to the least of my children, does it to me''
''Forgive them for they know not what they do'' (words spoken whilst dying on the cross. imagine the pain he endured, with a crown of thorns embedded in his skull, trying to draw breath and in so doing his whole weight bearing down on the nails in his feet. And despite the agony being able to fully forgive his tormentors.)
This last message is to my mind the most revealing and important.
he also said: '' In my father's house are many mansions'' - i take this to mean that the spiritual truth is the path to God, but that it is clothed in different traditions, or faiths.

This also leads me to believe that arguing the toss about which religion is the right one, also misses the point.

it's a pity we can't raise the level of debate above such mundane levels.

Instead we should be talking about the 'truths' tha have been revealed by the prophets we revere, and sharing them with each other in a spirit of kindred humanity, struggling with the daily grind and our own imperfections, which of course are many. This requires a spirit of humility and not judgement.

You may detect a degree of hypocrisy in that last sentence, but hey, I'm just another sinner like the rest of you!

[BrAiKi]

I agree with you sheik, Jesus :PBUH: IS the God made man, as in the man made by God just like adam and eve

Why would God send a lamb if he can forgive our sins without sending it

Why did Jesus :PBUH: always said that it's hard to enter the kingdom of God ? while some say that only believing in Jesus as a God :PBUH: will make you enter the kingdom of God ??

It was shown in many muslim-christian debates that the bible was changed and modified many times, but still that doesn't mean that it was fully changed

the reader can tell that alot of people, during Jesus :PBUH: time were trying to idolise him but he kept being humble and not wanting to be praised, I remember in one verse that a blind woman wiped her eyes with Jesus :PBUH: dress, and then she got cured, and then Jesus :PBUH: told her that it was her way of thinking that god her pured not him...


I also remember Jesus saying that there will be people who see him in the judgment day, but he will ignore them, and then they say "we praised you and followed your teachings, why aren't we in heaven?" but Jesus :PBUH: still ignores them, because the teachings they followed were not really his.... who do you think these people are ??


Also,

19 This is the testimony given by John when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, "Who are you?"
20 He confessed and did not deny it, but confessed, "I am not the Messiah."g 21 And they asked him, "What then? Are you Elijah?" He said, "I am not." "Are you the prophet?" He answered, "No."
22 Then they said to him, "Who are you? Let us have an answer for those who sent us. What do you say about yourself ?"
23 He said,
"I am the voice of one crying out in the wilderness,
'Make straight the way of the Lord,' "
as the prophet Isaiah said.


This shows that the Jews were not expecting the messiah only! but they were expecting Elijah and a prophet too
I also remember that Jesus :PBUH: mentioned that there will be someone who will lead the earth by the word and teachings of God, and that he will suffer the same way Prophet Moses :PBUH: Suffered... Exile, being mocked and things like that.... By saying that, Jesus :PBUH: was agreeing with what's written in the Torah.... Don't you guys wonder who that person is ??

[Kara]

This shows that the Jews were not expecting the messiah only! but they were expecting Elijah and a prophet too

It is said (somewhere) that Elijah. a prophet, will herald the Messianic era. This is kept alive by the Passover ceremony where a place at the table is set and the front door opened for Elijah just in case. So you can see why the Jews were asking.

[sheik-al-Tort]

I believe that Jesus was God's spokesman and was so filled with His spirit that God revealed Himself through him. I suspect, but don't know this, that Jesus was so close to God that his utterances were divine.

I suspect also that Buddha was similarly blessed. I'm not convinced that Mohammed was quite so perfect. Clearly Muslims would disagree, as would Jews, but that's my position, as what he and Buddha revealed has not been surpassed in anyway.

[BrAiKi]

what makes you think that Jesus :PBUH: is different that the other prophets ?

all prophets have the same mission, which is to be God's Spokesmen, otherwise, howcome prophet Moses :PBUH: came with the torah and the messages of God to men ??

Prophet Mohammed isn't perfect in many people's eyes because he didn't have many obvious miracles, The only obvious one is the Holy Quraan and it's teachings, stories etc... However many miracles happend during his life, like the one at the begining of his risala (mission), when the people of Mecca picked the finest warriors in each tribe and wanted to murder him, they all were surrounding his house in the middle of night, and then he came out infront of them, but they didn't see him, because they were blinded by the will of God, He put on each warriors head sand and left... Then they started laughing at each other because they noticed the sand on each other's head, and then a man who was a believer told them that Prophet mohammed :PBUH: came out infront of them and put the sand on their heads while they didn't do anything.. They all were shocked because they were blinded!

you see, this kind of Mircales that happend in the time of Prophet mohammed :PBUH: unlike Prophet Jesus, who spoke when he was few days old to tell the people that his mom was not touched by any man (this is one of the mircales that muslims believe that happend to Jesus but Christians don't) and unlike Prophet Moses and his followers when they walked in the river of nile which was stopped to let them walk in by the will of God...

The prophet of Islam's obvious miracles were not like these, the most obvious one is the Holy Quraan that all historians couldn't prove that it was copied from the Torah or the Bible... The book that has the teachings and instructions that can't be made by a man who couldn't write or read or wasn't educated by anyone!

when the prophet first saw the angel Jibrael, he was afraid and didn't know what was that. He thought that it was Jin, but he was told that it's Jibrael by an old Christian man who read the teachings of the two books, the Torah and the bible... He was told by the same man That he's the prophet that Moses :PBUH: was talking about, and he told him that he will be Exiled, and mocked by his own people, but he will return and Make a great victory just like Prophet Moses :PBUH: did, and that's what really happend

many people say now that this Man is the one who taught Prophet Mohammed :PBUH: the stories of all prophets peace be upon them, when we check the history books, we find that the christian man died 3 days after he told prophet mohammed :PBUH:

he said to prophet mohammed what means: " You're the prophet of this nation, and what you saw there was the Angel Jibrael, the angel whom Moses saw and spoke to... If I was young I'd stand by you and be with you and follow you and I would support you with all I can"

This actually means that the first one who believed In Prophet Mohammed as a Prophet from God is Christian

[sheik-al-Tort]

[QUOTE=BrAiKi]what makes you think that Jesus :PBUH: is different that the other prophets ?


He was a true martyr - going to his death, knowing it was going to happen imagine the anticipation, and yet still showing forgiveness. Oh yes, and he didn't cause anyoone else any pain except perhaps his mother.Who else of the prophets suffered such fate and showed so much compassion and love for his fellow human beings?

The rest seem to be rather judgemental in comparison.

[BrAiKi]

wasn't John and his father Zachria killed too ??
only God knows if they showed compassion or not, because they had no followers that recorded what they did n said!!



The rest seem to be rather judgemental in comparison
sheik, do know about the "others" to give such a statement ? :)

[sheik-al-Tort]

No Braiki. I have not seen any quite so conspicuous signs of compassion, perhaps you can enlighten me?

[BrAiKi]

okay, here goes:

After prophet mohammed starting seeing the visions, his people rejected him and starting to mock him and he suffered alot, they insulted him alot and everybody knows how far they got.... So he asked God's permission to go to al taif and try to spread his message, but the people of al taif already knew that he's coming, so they prepared themselves to reject, insult and mock him as well, they started throwing rocks on him, note that he was in the 40 and he endured all of that, and then, after being rejected by the ppl of al taif, he went to a farm there and prayed to God, he said what means : God I complain to you my poor strength and my poor effect on these people (of al taif), O most merciful, on who shall I depend ? on a stranger who attacks and insults me or on an enemy who can judge me ? If you have no anger against me then I don't care of what's happening to me.....)
you see here prophet mohammed :PBUH: was telling God of how he feels after what he got from his own people and from the people of al taif, and also he said that if this is not happening to him cuz of God's anger then hge doesn't care, which shows that he cares about The God not being angry at him more than suffering from what he got from the people of al Taif...
After that, the angel Gibrael came down to earth and told prophet mohammed that God is not angry at him, and If he wishes, Gabriel will close the two mountains on the whole city and destroy it by God's will, but prophet mohammed :PBUH: refused and said: "what I wishe is that they breed someone who worships God alone and no one else"


:) that's about prophet mohammed :PBUH: there are also many stories, I'll mention them if you think this one is not enough!

about the other prophets, as I said above, prophet zacharia and his son yahiya (John) were killed and I don't think that they didn't show compassion, it's not known tho because, as i said above, nobody recorded what they said before their death :)

[sheik-al-Tort]

Braiki although his reaction to the insults and rock throwing was commendable, I'd hardly put it in the same category as the crucifixion and uttering words of compassion in Jesus's dying breath.

[BrAiKi]

I understand what you say sheik, but there were many situations where he was about to get killed, and he would have got killed but it wasn't God's will, but still he didn't even ask God to hurt them cuz of what they did

logically speaking, trying to kill someone is like killing him, because the intentions are the same

you see I am not saying that Prophet Mohammed :PBUH: is better that prophet Jesus by doing that, I'm saying they are all the same, they are all the same prophets from one God with the same message

[sheik-al-Tort]

I would agree that they all carried God's truth forward, but Jesus did it under the most extreme conditions and demonstrated the most extraordinary level of compassion. So from that perspective I feel he was the greatest of the prophets.

[BrAiKi]

well I'm glad that you got my point at the end, Prophet Jesus really is one of the greatest prophets according to islam....the holy Quran listed the Greatest prophets ever and they are Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus and mohammed peace upon them all because they have endured all the types of insults and mocks

The main point is that they all are prophets from the same God with the same message!

[sheik-al-Tort]

I'm not sure Moses had the same message. The 10 commandments seem to be more about 'don't do that', than compassion and love. But no doubt this provided the foundation for a more civilised society to what were very tribal people.

Noah didn't really do much apart from look after a load of animals and build a big boat, Abraham was willing to sacrifice his son for God, which to my mind was the wrong thing to do. Fortunately God was just testing his faith, though I think that was a little unfair. Maybe it was also a sign of the times where more children died at birth and life was cheap.

As for Jesus being the son of God, I believe in a sense he was. But then I believe we are all sons and daughters of God as surely our souls issued from Him?

[BrAiKi]

exactly, but we muslims avoid the word "son" because it seems too metabolic, which lowers the Level of God SWT....But in the sense of love, we are all sons and daughters of God...

back to the prophets....

for us, the message of Moses and The message of Jesus Peace be Upon them are like Introductions to the Holy Quran, which is describes in the torah in I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and I will put My words in his mouth; and he shall speak to them all that I shall command him" Deuteronomy 18:18

there's also a quote of Jesus saying that the teachings of God are not complete until the last book is on earth, I will look for that quote and will post it :)

for God's sake sheik, prophet Noah didn't do much apart from looking after load of animals and build a big boat ?!?!?!?!? you are talking about a man who was Chosen by God to guide his people to the right path, and they didn't listen to him, and he suffered from them all kinds of insults for about 400-500 years!!!! I dont know if the bible lowered the level of this prophet, but what you are saying shows that!


and prophet Abraham! he's the only person on earth who reached God and concluded that there's only ONE and Then he became a prophet! and the sacrifice incident was a test of faith as u said, and we shouldn't say "I think" cause it's God who's testing not anyone else! and God knows why such tests happen

I'm really disappointed man, I don't know if the bible gives the readers this picture of the prophets, what I am sure of is that the Holy Quran doesn't.... on the contrary, it elevates the prophets to the highest levels

[sheik-al-Tort]

Briaki don't get so excited. The difference is that I come to my own conclusions and don't fear the consequences. Somehow I think that 'religious' people underestimate God if they think He can be so outraged by a spec of dust like me coming to his own conclusions. I think - because God gave me a mind to think. I might not come to the right conclusions, but at least on the odd occasion I do - it's genuine and not out of a craven fear of the Almighty.

Religious traditions that are scared to question themselves or try to control people through fear of the Almighty haven't evolved very much beyond the superficial. This is the sort of fear engendered by primitive witch doctors.
I get the impression that muslims are terrified of thinking for themselves for fear of being accused of blasphemy. Since when has God's reputation required protection by man?

The Bible, New Testament and Koran offer guidance to man - but ultimately it's a personal journey and between God and the individual - and man should step aside and not pass judgement on people for their relgious, agnostic or even atheistic views, but should show humility and respect, without forsaking their own beliefs. That is the sign of a mature dialogue - not judgement or crass comments about 'my religion is the true one yours is flawed'.

[BrAiKi]

sheik, do I underestimate God as well if we think that he gets outraged by a spec of dust like me doing whatever I can ?

if thats the case then can you explain to me trinity please ? the 3 in 1 n 1 in 3 ????

you see, true that God gave me mind to think, but there are limits, God gave us strength, but we must not steal!

Islam encourages the mind to think in things that the mind can understand, we can't question why God did this or have our own conclusions on why God did that! Because behind every action there's a hidden wisdom that we might understand after a while or will never understand!

An example of that is the real topic of this tread, when Jesus PBUH said to the caananite woman that he was only sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, and the the bread of the children must not be fed to the dogs... now would it be fair if I conclude that Jesus had no compassion for this woman ?!?!? Or IF that woman fed up and stopped asking him, her daughter wouldn't have been healed ??? ofcourse not, because, as u said, It's a test of faith, as he healed her daughter after it....


let me give you another example...

There used to be a christian leader in Habasha (currently Sudan or Sumailia) he was a wise and a good leader. He heard about Yemen and it used to be ruled by idolisers, there was no justice in that country and alot suffered in it, so he decided to invade the country and bring justice to it, and he was successful! and then he heard about a place not far away from yemen, which people used to go to and worship Idols there, the city that surrounded that place was rich because people who used to go there and worship the Idols, used to stay there and trade as well...So he thought of destroying that place of Idolisers and Build a big church instead...The city was defenceless and once the people heard that the leader who was victorious in yemen is coming to them, they left the city and it was almost abandoned...But when the Habasha leader and his army approached the city, a miracle happend! bird came out of nowhere carrying stones and started to throw it on the army! many of the army died and the leader himself died, so the rest of the army retreated back to Yemen.....

for a christian in that time, it would seem that what the christian leader was trying to do is right! he was gona destroy the city and build a big church instead, and people would have worshipped God, but why did the miracle happen ?? Because God doesn't allow killing innocents in his name

and lastly, I am not trying to say that my religion is right and yours is false, I'd not be a muslim if I claim that christianity is false! but I want you to think, is all whats written in the bible correct ?? is it the direct word of God ?? The bible that us muslims believe in isn't from matthew nor luke nor John nor mark, It is from Jesus PBUH because that bible is what he got directly from God

[sheik-al-Tort]

Braiki thanks for the clarification. Do you have a copy of the book written directly by Jesus? I don't believe it exists. If it does i'd love to read it, but as he died when he was about 34 years old and was pretty busy all the time, I don't think such a book can exist.

As for believing everything in the bible or new testament, I don't.

[BrAiKi]

I am not talking about the book that's directly written by Jesus PBUH, I was talking about the words of God that were told by Jesus, ofcourse they were written, but then each one of the followers got a copy according to the name of the follower...

I understand why you don't believe everything in the bible or the new testament, cuz as I said above, it's not the direct word of God. At the same time I am sure that you believe everything in the bible that was told by Jesus PBUH himself cause he's protected by the will of God from making mistakes and errors just like other prophets, peace upon them all

[sheik-al-Tort]

I see what you mean, and yes you are right.