Has Islam Failed?

[Pineapple Thief]

This is an ambiguous question, and it's meant to provoke. I want some reactions basically.

Has Islam failed - have the teachings of Islam today been changed over time, are they different from when Islam was first introduced? (thats one angle, feel free to take any angle - there is no off-topic provided its related to the title in some way).

Its likely the first person to post will set the direction of the theaad. Lets make it meaningful plz.

[ToomuchaT]

.. islam hasnt failed.. but we *who to be called muslims* did fail and are failing till unknown time

.. something to be listed in the failure list, it has to be proven wrong first to be listed in that list!!

.. but when ppl dont follow the rules of any theory, and they fail under that rule, then u cant say that theory is wrong or has failed!! .. but for sure u can say that ppl have failed to follow that rule!

.. but there is a big hope that we might wake up sometime.. at unknown time as well :)

[jack]

No Islam has not failed ... yet.

By design Islam allows its followers to take several paths.

1. A peaceful path
2. A violent path
3. Combination of both

But the goal is the same and we all know the end goal of all paths. Muslims have been taught and now non-mulsims are learning that end goal.

There will always be conflict ... as long as muslims pursue the end goal.

When muslims stop pursuing the end goal then Islam will have failed. I don't see that happening any time soon.

[MorphaKnight]

^exactly what is that end goal?

[jack]

^exactly what is that end goal?Read the Quran and hadeeth ... study Muhammads documented life. I'm sure you will get it :Shock:

[MorphaKnight]

I just would like to know whats on your mind..

[amo_l_oman]

Failed in what exactly?

[STING]

I as a muslim, like others, always wonder about Muslims current situation. Despite having no doubts about how magnificent this religion is, from A to Z. I often get confused about how people following such a faith can be in such terrible conditions. And I emphasize, I do not only mean the suffering of the muslims around the world, even more shockingly, I wonder about the mentality and behaviour of muslims, including myself many times.

Having said that, I also learnt that muslims were not always this horrible. In fact, just around a couple of centuries ago, althought not as good as one's logic expects them to be, they were in general, however, quite alright.

In addition to that, I also know about all the breakthroughs muslims made in various fields through its short history of around 1500 years. Muslims made their mark in the fields of science, engineering, architecture, art, humanity and almost everything else. In short, they ruled the world and lead it from the front. The world followed the Muslims.

This means, and I am sure all would agree, there is nothing wrong with Islam, the problem is with Muslims today, as it has been for the last 200 years.

I would love to continue speaking about this great religion, not only as a muslim, but as a logical human, but that would require another thread I guess. :think:

I read an article by a great contemporary muslim few weeks ago in KhaleejTimes. I managed to find its softcopy, this article points out one of the main reasons for the downfall of Muslims (Not Islam), I really advise you all to read it by clicking here (http://www.timesofoman.com/newsdetails.asp?newsid=21831). I completely agree with the thoughts of the writer, Mahathir Mohammed, the former leader of Malaysia.

[STING]

No Islam has not failed ... yet.

By design Islam allows its followers to take several paths.

1. A peaceful path
2. A violent path
3. Combination of both

But the goal is the same and we all know the end goal of all paths. Muslims have been taught and now non-mulsims are learning that end goal.

There will always be conflict ... as long as muslims pursue the end goal.

When muslims stop pursuing the end goal then Islam will have failed. I don't see that happening any time soon.

Islam does not allow its follower to take several paths, the followers choose to create their on paths, some good some bad. I will not discuss what that path is, but I find ur list quite illiterate :yuk: .

[cLueLess]

I agree with STING. There is nothing wrong with the teachings of Islam. Islam is supposed to be simple and clear. It is the different interpretations Muslims have of it that made it go all wrong. Every group interprets it according to what they'd like to make out of it, leading others to confusion. There are also many temptations in today's world. People are not as pure and focused as they used to be in the olden times, and sometimes material makes us forget religion. Whereas Islam has one path, take it or leave it, what present Muslims (I'm not excluding myself here!) tend to do is take what they like and leave what they don't.

[Arabian Princess]

just today, I was having a conversation like this with my family.
Like toomuchat, we failed not Islam .. Islam is clear & simple, there are certain rules that you have to follow, but god knew that we humans are complicated and that we will be misguided this is why the "end goal" is so rewarding.

[BuSs BuSs]

Very well said sting......!!! completely agree

[sheik-al-Tort]

Sting what an interesting article. However it also reveals a sense of victimisation and ''us and them'' or 'West vs. Islam'' I think this is wrong and creates unnecessary barriers between muslims and non muslims. Presumably this is why today hundreds of thousands of Christians are being thrown out of their homes for muslim earthquake victims. At the root of this is a sense that muslim = superior and non muslims inferior. Also maybe there is a great deal of envy - the West being scientifically superior when Muslims once were the custodians of science - before the 'regression' that the writer refers to.


The trouble with this logic is that it leads to the kind of evil perpetrated by Hitler against the jews and Serbians against muslims.

Until Muslims take their heads out of the sand and stop believing they are being victimised and realise that we are all human and sons and daughters of Allah, Muslims, Jews, Christians, Buddhists, Hindus, etc etc and atheists, you will never be free and able to take your place at the forefront of solving the World's real problems, like Aids, poverty, ignorance, greed, thirst for power etc

[amo_l_oman]

Can someone tell me please in which field exactly Islam has failed?

*She's having another attack of pinnochism*

[sheik-al-Tort]

Science
Envy of the West
Infighting and squabbling - Sunnis/Shiites
Attracting suicide bombers
judging the rest of humanity

I could go on......

[amo_l_oman]

See that there's something new then ;)

Envy of the West
judging the rest of humanityNot to be pedant pino style, but this is purely Muslims not Islam

[MorphaKnight]

the problem is that whatever they do in their lives they bring religion into it and blame the west. Or that in the recent Egyptian parlimentary elections, they brought islam in a political issue even though it has nothing to do with it..

[sheik-al-Tort]

See that there's something new then ;)
Not to be pedant pino style, but this is purely Muslims not Islam


What's the difference Amo?

[amo_l_oman]

Science
Envy of the West
Infighting and squabbling - Sunnis/Shiites
Attracting suicide bombers
judging the rest of humanity

I could go on......You ascribe to Islam all these features which I assume you don't see in Christianity then
Islam brought something new, negative but new
butt
me do not agree

[sheik-al-Tort]

Amo dearest. The 'new' things are not desirable as rather than providing new insights into the wonder of God, they reflect the opposite - envy, anger, fear, hatred. Good old fashioned human characteristics

[amo_l_oman]

It has failed in keeping the pace with the modern era, that's probably the answer many non Muslims want to hear from a Muslim.
But then again I might say that is the opposite.

[STING]

Sting what an interesting article. However it also reveals a sense of victimisation and ''us and them'' or 'West vs. Islam'' I think this is wrong and creates unnecessary barriers between muslims and non muslims. Presumably this is why today hundreds of thousands of Christians are being thrown out of their homes for muslim earthquake victims. At the root of this is a sense that muslim = superior and non muslims inferior. Also maybe there is a great deal of envy - the West being scientifically superior when Muslims once were the custodians of science - before the 'regression' that the writer refers to.


The trouble with this logic is that it leads to the kind of evil perpetrated by Hitler against the jews and Serbians against muslims.

Until Muslims take their heads out of the sand and stop believing they are being victimised and realise that we are all human and sons and daughters of Allah, Muslims, Jews, Christians, Buddhists, Hindus, etc etc and atheists, you will never be free and able to take your place at the forefront of solving the World's real problems, like Aids, poverty, ignorance, greed, thirst for power etc

First of all, who are u referring to? Can you show us a source for this information?

Secondly, I dont really have a doubt that muslims are actually being victimised. Look around you. Muslims are suffering where ever they r in minorities or weak. Some may blame the muslims, but I dont think the poor people of Bosnia, Kashmir..etc started the problems so they get massacred. This is another topic, in short hoever, my point is that they are in fact being victimised.

And Lastly, I totally agree with you. Until muslims and arabs dont clean up their head rearding other faiths this problem will exist. But then again, that proves my point regarding the thread, muslims today need to change, they are probably too proud of the achievements of their ancestors. I dont recally any event in history where muslims dehumanised or massacred a group of people. Specially women or children. Although they ruled the world. The lead by example, not power. All they did was simply spread the message of god, that is Islam.

[STING]

the problem is that whatever they do in their lives they bring religion into it and blame the west. Or that in the recent Egyptian parlimentary elections, they brought islam in a political issue even though it has nothing to do with it..

My dear friend, they probably learned that from the West :D . Dont they blame muslims for every single thing. I only thank god they did not invade all nice arabs for Katrina and Rita :angel: .

And again, please try to focus, Egyptians are Muslims, not Islam. ie:

Egyptians=Muslims.

Islam is a religion. Dont thanks me :rolleyes:

[STING]

What's the difference Amo?

I wonder if christianity taught the shameless soldiers in Iraq, Afghanistan...etc to do what they do with their prisoners? I am sure not. Try to spread your mind and think. Ignorance leads to terrorism afterall :cute:

[BuSs BuSs]

But guys.....if a religion has failed, then it couldn't have come from Allah Almighty....Allah almighty can not fail....tehy are the followers that create the failure!!
if you guysthink that Islam has failed......are you questioning the validity of your islamic faith?!

[Pineapple Thief]

I think every minority is unfairly treated by some, in any nation. Its less to do with Islam in particular and more to do with xenophobia. Sadly it only takes the actions of a few to cause a community to stop looking outwards and start retreating in.

Perhaps that isnt relevant. Anyway, there seems to be a consensus, amongst muslims at least, that Islam hasn't failed, its the followers who have failed. But why is that? Is Islam unclear about its teachings? Or is it human error? And if so, why is Islam/muslims so much more militant than other religions, at least today?

[sheik-al-Tort]

First of all, who are u referring to? Can you show us a source for this information?

Secondly, I dont really have a doubt that muslims are actually being victimised. Look around you. Muslims are suffering where ever they r in minorities or weak. Some may blame the muslims, but I dont think the poor people of Bosnia, Kashmir..etc started the problems so they get massacred. This is another topic, in short hoever, my point is that they are in fact being victimised.

A.


Sting outside countries where muslims are a majority - where is the victimisation going on?

They are certainly not being victimised in West, however the behaviour of many who claim to be muslims is certainly causing many non muslims to question their intentions.

As I said this feeling of victimisation is more about envy than fact. It's an excuse for the kind of barbaric behaviour of people like Zakawi.

Also let us not forget that very recently in the Sudan, slaughter and rape of women and children has been carried out under the auspices of Islam's General Omar al-Bashir

http://www.merip.org/mero/mero101804.html

Instead of blaming everyone else, I suggest that Islam would do well to start examining its own behaviour in the light of the Quran, and adopt a less arrogant and more benign attitude to non muslims. Or to put it another way get your own house in order first. Then by all means come and tell us how you did it, so we will have something to learn from Islam.

[STING]

Perhaps that isnt relevant. Anyway, there seems to be a consensus, amongst muslims at least, that Islam hasn't failed, its the followers who have failed. But why is that? Is Islam unclear about its teachings? Or is it human error? And if so, why is Islam/muslims so much more militant than other religions, at least today?

I suggest u read the article I linked. I think that can be one of the reasons.

[STING]

Sting outside countries where muslims are a majority - where is the victimisation going on?

They are certainly not being victimised in West, however the behaviour of many who claim to be muslims is certainly causing many non muslims to question their intentions.

As I said this feeling of victimisation is more about envy than fact. It's an excuse for the kind of barbaric behaviour of people like Zakawi.

Also let us not forget that very recently in the Sudan, slaughter and rape of women and children has been carried out under the auspices of Islam's General Omar al-Bashir

http://www.merip.org/mero/mero101804.html

Instead of blaming everyone else, I suggest that Islam would do well to start examining its own behaviour in the light of the Quran, and adopt a less arrogant and more benign attitude to non muslims. Or to put it another way get your own house in order first. Then by all means come and tell us how you did it, so we will have something to learn from Islam.

I think I mentioned Bosnia and Kashmir as an example. However, the vicitmisation is not the issue or topic here. I wont defend the acts of the Sudanese. Coz I know it is wrong. As many owrst cases reported in other parts of the world.

I totally agree with you last paragraph though, that is my point. Muslim should change. They should try to be like their ancestors. Try to be true muslims. Thats what I and that article I mentioned tries to emphasize.

Having said so, I also am quite sure about the shameful acts of western GOVERNMENTS. Note the word Government.

[sheik-al-Tort]

Sting I think we agree.

[STING]

Sting I think we agree.

Yes dear we do. And thats what my posts and the article referred to. Muslims need to change. Be it the perception or the teaching methods of Islam. But Islam is pure and perfect as it always has been. :)

[sheik-al-Tort]

By the way Sting - when is your next album out?

[STING]

By the way Sting - when is your next album out?

Hehehe..I will open a thread about it :cute: Although I love the singer, but thats not why I chose the nicl ;)

Oh..sorry..are we getting off the topic? :yuk:

[wudjab]

I found the answer to this question in the article I just read.

Enjoy.

The combined annual GDP of 57 Muslim countries remains under $2 trillion. America, just by herself, produces goods and services worth $10.4 trillion; China $5.7 trillion, Japan $3.5 trillion and Germany $2.1 trillion. Even India's GDP is estimated at over $3 trillion (purchasing power parity basis).

Oil rich Saudi Arabia, U.A.E., Kuwait and Qatar collectively produce goods and services (mostly oil) worth $430 billion; Netherlands alone has a higher annual GDP while Buddhist Thailand produces goods and services worth $429 billion.

Muslims are 22 percent of the world population and produce less than five percent of global GDP. Even more worrying is that the Muslim countries' GDP as a percent of the global GDP is going down over time. The Arabs, it seems, are particularly worse off. According to the United Nations' Arab Development Report: "Half of Arab women cannot read; One in five Arabs live on less than $2 per day; Only 1 percent of the Arab population has a personal computer, and only half of 1 percent use the Internet; Fifteen percent of the Arab workforce is unemployed, and this number could double by 2010; The average growth rate of the per capita income during the preceding 20 years in the Arab world was only one-half of 1 percent per annum, worse than anywhere but sub-Saharan Africa."

The planet's poorest countries include Ethiopia, Sierra Leone, Afghanistan, Cambodia, Somalia, Nigeria, Pakistan and Mozambique. At least six of the poorest of the poor are countries with a Muslim majority.

Conclusion: Muslims of the world are among the poorest of the poor.

Fifty-seven Muslim majority countries have an average of ten universities each for a total of less than 600 universities for 1.4 billion people; India has 8,407 universities, the U.S. has 5,758. From within 1.4 billion Muslims Abdus Salam and Ahmed Zewail are the only two Muslim men who won a Nobel Prize in physics and chemistry (Salam pursued his scientific work in Italy and the UK, Zewail at California Institute of Technology). Dr Salam in his home country is not even considered a Muslim.

Over the past 105 years, 1.4 billion Muslims have produced eight Nobel Laureates while a mere 14 million Jews have produced 167 Nobel Laureates. Of the 1.4 billion Muslims less than 300,000 qualify as 'scientists', and that converts to a ratio of 230 scientists per one million Muslims. The United States of America has 1.1 million scientists (4,099 per million); Japan has 700,000 (5,095 per million).

Fact: Of the 1.4 billion Muslims 800 million are illiterate (6 out of 10 Muslims cannot read). In Christendom, adult literacy rate stands at 78 percent.

Consider, for instance, that Muslims constitute 22 percent of world population with a 1 percent share of Nobel Prizes. Jews constitute 0.23 percent of world population with a 22 percent share of Nobel Prizes.

What really went wrong? Muslims are poor, illiterate and weak. What went wrong? Arriving at the right diagnosis is extremely critical because the prescription depends on it. Consider this:

Diagnosis 1: Muslims are poor, illiterate and weak because they have 'abandoned the divine heritage of Islam'. Prescription: We must return to our real or imagined past.

Diagnosis 2: Muslims are poor, illiterate and weak because we have refused to change with time.

Keep pace with time -- al Quran

http://www.jang.com.pk/thenews/nov2005-daily/08-11-2005/oped/o6.htm

[STING]

wudjab, I must Thank You for these facts, I have been searching for such a compilation. I am sure, now, everybody would agree, there is something wrong with the Muslims from the past couple of centuries perhaps.

I hope one can get a source about the achievements of Muslims from sometime back. SO we can compare them with the Muslims today.

Lets pray god forgives us for such failures after he gave us the most wonderful gift ever. Islam.

[shamsery]

Muslims are 22 percent of the world population.

Fact: Of the 1.4 billion Muslims 800 million are illiterate (6 out of 10 Muslims cannot read). Diagnosis 1: Muslims are poor, illiterate and weak because they have 'abandoned the divine heritage of Islam'. Prescription: We must return to our real or imagined past.

Diagnosis 2: Muslims are poor, illiterate and weak because we have refused to change with time.

Keep pace with time -- al Quran
I have no idea, how far the statistics are correct.
But real picture will not differ much, I assume.
What a pity, Islam is a religion who advised his followers to travel around for knowledge shake.
Saying goes like that, if necessary visits China for knowledge shake.
Hope you see the contradiction. Hope you see what Quran says.
From the end of the 8th century , Muslims entered in to dark age.
Without proper education, we have no way to come out from the vicious circle.

[amo_l_oman]

“I’m on my own. I haven’t got any friends. My home is my universe” (http://www.corriere.it/english/articoli/2005/12_Dicembre/05/suicide.shtml)

When I read stories like this, honestly I don't know if is Islam or Muslims to have failed, but one thing is sure: failure is with us.

[shamsery]

“She said ,She respected her religion but wanted a normal life”
This is a contradictory statement.
Under any circumstances her religion does not permit committing “suicide”.
I could not understand, what writer wanted to mean by “engagement” with a 14 years old boy. It fall under the child marriage act, we treat it unlawful, illegal.
With the change of time , change of society, Muslim are living relax live. Perhaps the parents of Flora are illiterate, uneducated, conservative , orthodox. Otherwise it won’t happen. Italy is a free society, naturally any student will brought up with western values.
No secret, Western values and Islamic values have got contradiction.
Senorita, what you want to mean by this article?
Do you suggest that Muslim should adopt Western culture in their personal life?

[Pineapple Thief]

I have no idea, how far the statistics are correct.
But real picture will not differ much, I assume.
What a pity, Islam is a religion who advised his followers to travel around for knowledge shake.
Saying goes like that, if necessary visits China for knowledge shake.
Hope you see the contradiction. Hope you see what Quran says.
From the end of the 8th century , Muslims entered in to dark age.
Without proper education, we have no way to come out from the vicious circle.


Yeah.

A great man, who claimed to be Muslim (as well as Christian and Hindu, perhaps amongst other religions) once said "You must be the change you want to see in the world."

Any guesses who?

Point is, as muslims (those of us that are), if we see such weakness and, well, backwardness, that causes us to even wonder whether Islam has failed, then dont we need to be the ones to change that?

[Shinoda LP]

Gandhi, PT.

And like everyone else in this thread, I also think that Islam hasn't failed, but its followers have failed in large numbers. I'm not attributing that to an inferiority complex built in on becoming and staying a minority over the years, only to develop a wrong notion of hatred against any power or attributing that to bring brainwashed followers of a wrong leader (OBL, etc).

A post of Morphy's went totally un-noticed, so I'll say it again. One major way in which Islam is different from most other mainstream religions of the world is on how its public in one's life. For everyone else, one's religion remains private ... a matter of following that you follow at your home or place of worship, but Muslims have made it a point to intermingle Islam with each and everything they can. In the past it has spelled doom to countries that have done so ... lets see what the future holds.

[Arabian Princess]

. In the past it has spelled doom to countries that have done so ... lets see what the future holds.

Which past? Othman empire until now? then its not islam that spelt doom on its being far from Islam because no country since the othman empire went down until now that practiced Islam as it is .. they are practicing Islam as thier political idolgies want Islam to be.

[STING]

I am sure everybody over here agree that the Muslims have failed, for the past couple of hundred of years atleast. And everybody also agree with the facts about how Muslims ruled the world before that. But doesn't it sound pretty normal for one to fall after a rise? If you think about it, it has happened with everybody. It happened with the Jews, the christians, and perhaps various other nations.

We might feel now, that the glory days have ended, and religous believes aside, hasn't it been around 200 years only? Hasn't Palestine been occupied for just about 50 years now? It was occupied for much longer before by the British/French crusaders. Generations changed in those lands, but eventually Muslims took their lands back. My point here is, we might feel surrounded and in the box now, but if you look at the pic picture, you will realise, this will change, sooner rather then later.

More importantly, let us recall how Salah-UL-Deen faught the occupiers for years and years. He never senselessly attacked the occupiers. For year and years, he created schools that taught the muslims their religion, which at that point as well, like now, was quite blurry for the muslims. Those schools also taught the various sciences that muslims had developed. In short, he educated the people and changed their mentality, he made them true muslims.

As a result, at the end, those heroes faught like true muslims and recaptured all their lands. And what proves that they were, in fact, true muslims, is the way they allowed the occupiers who made them suffer for hundreds of years, leave with all their wealth and dignity, without any harm to the women, children and the old. Not even to the fighters who surrendered.

Remember, ALLAH does not change somebody untill they change themselves.

[sheik-al-Tort]

Pity that all those fighting do not adhere to his example - muslims and non-muslims alike

[shamsery]

only to develop a wrong notion of hatred against any power or attributing that to bring brainwashed followers of a wrong leader (OBL, etc).

OBL does not represent Islam.

So far I think, he never claimed himself as a religious leader.
His war is not for Islam.

[Shinoda LP]

Which past? Othman empire until now? then its not islam that spelt doom on its being far from Islam because no country since the othman empire went down until now that practiced Islam as it is .. they are practicing Islam as thier political idolgies want Islam to be.Sorry, I wasn't clear in my previous post. I was talking about countries and OTHER religions ... wasn't talking about spelling doom when Islam's adopted publicly and intermingled with state politics.

Shamsery, I know and I've been hearing similar comments everytime some so-called Muslim does something wrong. I'm still not categorizing, but it does happen a lot ... a LOT!

[sheik-al-Tort]

An American friend of mine provided me with this response to Wudjab's interesting analysis of scientific endeavour or lack of it, which I thought was spot on:

''I wonder how many of the Jewish laureates were observant Orthodox. I wonder how many of the Christians were fundamentalist. The problem is fundamentalism, not Islam. Historically, Moslem societies are behind in becoming secular, but the better course would be to promote secularism and separation of church and state, rather than to take on Islam tooth and nail as a religion. The US is wrestling with religious interference with the teaching of biology in public schools, and there are reportedly signs of backsliding at the Vatican in this regard. Doubt too many nobels in medicine will result from the teaching of ID.''


I think he is bang on