View Full Version : Angels in the Torah and the Bible.
fatamooo
12-09-05, 05:46 PM
Ok, I have several specific questions on angels and the way they are represented in different religions and cultures.
According to Jewish Religion:
What are angels and what do they do?
In the Torah, it is mentioned that angels appear to humans sometimes. Do they appear only to prophets and what do they look like?
Is the way that they appear to humans really the way God actually made them? Or do they change form when descending to Earth?
Do angels in the Torah reside in heaven?
What about Satan? Is he also considered an angel? In Islam, Satan was created an angel, until he refused to bow down to Adam when he was created, therefore God changed him from a being of light to a being of fire, and cast him out of heaven and (I think) into hell, for disobeying His command. Is it the same according to Jewish teachings?
In the Bible, there is a hierarchy of angels (Cherubim, Seraphim, Archangel, etc...) - is there a hierarchy of angels mentioned in the Torah?
According to the Christian Religion:
How are angels seen in Christianity? Most classical Christian art portrays them as beings with human form, wings and a halo. Is this an accurate depiction?
What is Satan to the Christians? Is he also seen as a fallen angel?
Where do angels reside?
Do angels have different duties depending on their position in the celestial hierarchy?
Why is there a celestial hierarchy? Does this mean that Archangels, for example, are more powerful, or have a higher status, than Cherubs?
Hmmm .... those are a lot of questions!!! Well, if anyone has any info or hopefully specific answers to those questions, that would be great :D.
fatamooo
12-09-05, 05:48 PM
Oh and also one more question!!!!
Are there such things as angels in pagan religions?
Ok, I have several specific questions on angels and the way they are represented in different religions and cultures.
According to Jewish Religion:
What are angels and what do they do?
In the Torah, it is mentioned that angels appear to humans sometimes. Do they appear only to prophets and what do they look like?
Is the way that they appear to humans really the way God actually made them? Or do they change form when descending to Earth?
Do angels in the Torah reside in heaven?
What about Satan? Is he also considered an angel? In Islam, Satan was created an angel, until he refused to bow down to Adam when he was created, therefore God changed him from a being of light to a being of fire, and cast him out of heaven and (I think) into hell, for disobeying His command. Is it the same according to Jewish teachings?
In the Bible, there is a hierarchy of angels (Cherubim, Seraphim, Archangel, etc...) - is there a hierarchy of angels mentioned in the Torah?
According to the Christian Religion:
How are angels seen in Christianity? Most classical Christian art portrays them as beings with human form, wings and a halo. Is this an accurate depiction?
What is Satan to the Christians? Is he also seen as a fallen angel?
Where do angels reside?
Do angels have different duties depending on their position in the celestial hierarchy?
Why is there a celestial hierarchy? Does this mean that Archangels, for example, are more powerful, or have a higher status, than Cherubs?
Hmmm .... those are a lot of questions!!! Well, if anyone has any info or hopefully specific answers to those questions, that would be great :D.
woooooooo.woooooo... Hold your horses ranger!
In Islam we go by Quran that says :
وإذ قال ربك للملائكة اسجدوا لآدم فسجدوا إلا إبليس كان من الجن ففسق عن أمر ربه أفتتخذونه وذريته أولياء من دوني وهم لكم عدو بئس للظالمين بدلا.
in another verse Eblees is recorded saying :
قال يا إبليس ما منعك أن تسجد لما خلقت بيدي استكبرت أم كنت من العالين قال أنا خير منه خلقتني من نار وخلقته من طين قال فاخرج منها فإنك رجيم وإن عليك لعنتي إلى يوم الدين
Proudly Eblees mentions what he was created from not transformed to.
as for angels according to sa7ee7 Muslim :
قال النبي -صلى الله عليه وسلم-:(خلقت الملائكة من نور ، وخلق الجان من مارج من نار ، وخلق آدم مما وصف لكم
رواه مسلم في صحيحه
Arabian Princess
13-09-05, 10:38 AM
The translation of the verses above:
And the angels did obeisance, all of them,
But not Iblis: he was proud and he was one of the unbelievers.
He said: O Iblis! what prevented you that you should do obeisance to him whom I created with My two hands? Are you proud or are you of the exalted ones?
He said: I am better than he; Thou hast created me of fire, and him Thou didst create of dust
He said: Then get out of it, for surely you are driven away:
And surely My curse is on you to the day of judgment.
Milliardo Peacecraft
13-09-05, 11:47 AM
According to the Christian Religion:
How are angels seen in Christianity?
Angels, by the term itself, means messenger, so they are seen as messengers of God.
Most classical Christian art portrays them as beings with human form, wings and a halo. Is this an accurate depiction?
No. That is a popular depiction of angels, but they do not necessarily look that way. They do choose to show themselves like that though, since it's the most familiar form we are accustomed to, but the Bible do have depictions of angels in various forms.
What is Satan to the Christians? Is he also seen as a fallen angel?
Yes. Lucifer is a fallen angel.
Where do angels reside?
Heaven
Do angels have different duties depending on their position in the celestial hierarchy?
Yes.
Why is there a celestial hierarchy? Does this mean that Archangels, for example, are more powerful, or have a higher status, than Cherubs?
Just as we have our heirarchy and duties, so do angels have their own duties and functions. The highest in the celestial heirarchy (aside from God) are the seraphim, followed by the cherubim, then down the line (there are 7 levels in all) to archangels and then angels.
Milliardo Peacecraft
13-09-05, 11:49 AM
Oh and also one more question!!!!
Are there such things as angels in pagan religions?
Many North American Indians believe in spirit guides, which are more or less like angels.
Milliardo Peacecraft
Does the bible suggest the idea of genders when it comes to Angels?
Milliardo Peacecraft
13-09-05, 11:56 AM
Milliardo Peacecraft
Does the bible suggest the idea of genders when it comes to Angels?
Long and short of it: no. There are angels with masculine names though (Michael comes to mind), but since angels are essentially spirits, then they are genderless.
And do they die? Do they have free will?
Milliardo Peacecraft
13-09-05, 12:04 PM
And do they die? Do they have free will?
Angels do not have free will; they act according to God's will. I think this has much to do with what Lucifer did, so angels are more or less now obedient to God. So that is why man is actually, in a sense, higher than angels in that we were given the freedom to choose between good and evil. Do they die? Again, no. Lucifer never died, though he and his followers were cast into hell.
Angels do not have free will; they act according to God's will. I think this has much to do with what Lucifer did, so angels are more or less now obedient to God. So that is why man is actually, in a sense, higher than angels in that we were given the freedom to choose between good and evil. Do they die? Again, no. Lucifer never died, though he and his followers were cast into hell.
so prior to Lucifer they used to have free will? and then God modified his own creation?
Milliardo Peacecraft
13-09-05, 01:48 PM
so prior to Lucifer they used to have free will? and then God modified his own creation?
Honestly, I am not too familiar with the whole story of Lucifer and how angels were then; msot likely they did have free will, or else Lucifer deciding he's better than God would not be possible. God modifying His own creation--He is after all Creator, right? So He can do as He pleases with His creation.
Honestly, I am not too familiar with the whole story of Lucifer and how angels were then; msot likely they did have free will, or else Lucifer deciding he's better than God would not be possible. God modifying His own creation--He is after all Creator, right? So He can do as He pleases with His creation.
So the bible suggests that God Almighty did not foresee this? That he is not all knowing? Because if he was, then there was no reason to modify
Milliardo Peacecraft
13-09-05, 02:31 PM
So the bible suggests that God Almighty did not foresee this?
Forgive me if I am not that familiar with the story of Lucifer and his fall; it is not after all in the Bible, though if I am correct this story was adopted by Christianity (and I might add, Islam as well) from Judaism (perhaps montheism can shed more light on this one), so it is not the Bible that suggests this. However, does this mean that God did not foresee Lucifer's rebellion? No. He merely willed it to happen, though He knew it would happen.
Forgive me if I am not that familiar with the story of Lucifer and his fall; it is not after all in the Bible, though if I am correct this story was adopted by Christianity (and I might add, Islam as well) from Judaism (perhaps montheism can shed more light on this one), so it is not the Bible that suggests this. However, does this mean that God did not foresee Lucifer's rebellion? No. He merely willed it to happen, though He knew it would happen.
no worries, am not expecting a scholarly discussion, just a civilized one and so far you and I are doing that. Islam had it's own source I believe I laid out from the very beginning that Lucifer falls under a different category, a different nature so to speak. One that lets him have the "will" and was not an angel as such I as a Muslim do not run into this paradigm that I am facing with Christianity explaining the behavior of an angel.
you see the issue of "will" is the key point to this whole argument. You said, that now angels lack the will, but before the event they had the will which suggests that they have the ability in them to sin.
however Islam defines them as such :
وله من في السماوات والأرض ومن عنده لا يستكبرون عن عبادته ولا يستحسرون ﴿19﴾ يسبحون الليل والنهار لا يفترون ﴿20﴾
and :
﴿163﴾ وما منا إلا له مقام معلوم ﴿164﴾ وإنا لنحن الصافون ﴿165﴾ وإنا لنحن المسبحون ﴿166﴾
﴿5﴾ يا أيها الذين آمنوا قوا أنفسكم وأهليكم نارا وقودها الناس والحجارة عليها ملائكة غلاظ شداد لا يعصون الله ما أمرهم ويفعلون ما يؤمرون ﴿6﴾
I do hope that someone translates these verses, since I cannot seem to access any of the sites that enables me to do so.
Arabian Princess
13-09-05, 03:23 PM
The translation of the veses above:
And whoever is in the heavens and the earth is His; and those who are with Him are not proud to serve Him, nor do they grow weary. (19)They glorify (Him) by night and day; they are never languid. (20)
Second:
And there is none of us but has an assigned place, (164) And most surely we are they who draw themselves out in ranks, (165) And we are most surely they who declare the glory (of Allah). (166)
and third:
you who believe! save yourselves and your families from a fire whose fuel is men and stones; over it are angels stern and strong, they do not disobey Allah in what He commands them, and do as they are commanded.
fatamooo
13-09-05, 06:58 PM
Thanks all for your input :D - I need this info for a research I'm doing for an essay so that's why all the questions ...
I'm hoping monotheism will be able to provide the answers to the Torah questions I had :)...
fatamooo
16-09-05, 10:44 PM
Mono mono mono ... where are you!!!
monotheism
23-09-05, 11:43 PM
In the Torah, it is mentioned that angels appear to humans sometimes. Do they appear only to prophets and what do they look like?
Angels are not physical entities, but are rather spiritual entities. Therefore, they do not have a phyiscal form. (Thus, the question above would be similar to asking "what does your intellect look like?", except more so.) Also, the prophetic vision is not like seeing something directly, but rather indirectly. Moreover, the vision that the prophet perceives is filtered through his power of imagination. Thus, the prophet does not actually perceive these beings (or G-d Himself) directly, but only indirectly through veils and screens. The exception to this was Moshe who spoke to G-d "Mouth to mouth" (Num. 12:8) through an "Aspaklaria HaMe'ira," Hebrew for a clear lens.
Is the way that they appear to humans really the way God actually made them? Or do they change form when descending to Earth?
See above.
Do angels in the Torah reside in heaven?
Depends what you mean by "heaven" and also depends what you mean by "angels". There are angels and demons that are part of the physical world. We generally cannot perceive them because they are spiritual entities, and we are physical entities. We do not have the "receivers" through which to "perceive" these creatures directly, but only their physical manifestations. (I like to think of it similar to how there are radio, tv, cellphone, etc. waves all around us, but we cannot perceive them without the proper vessel or "receiver".)
What about Satan? Is he also considered an angel?
Yes, he is an angel; and he has sub-angels etc. Contrary to other religions, the Torah teaches that he is merely a totally dependent agent of G-d, who lacks the power to rebel against Him.
In the Bible, there is a hierarchy of angels (Cherubim, Seraphim, Archangel, etc...) - is there a hierarchy of angels mentioned in the Torah?
Yes, though they're not written in the Hebrew scripture; they're been passed on as a Tradition (Kabbalah).
Does the Torah mention anything about the number of angels that reside in heaven? Also, can you give me a list of all their names?
There are general categories of angels, and then there are an infinite number of sub-angels, troops, and names etc. Generally, angels are named according to their function or mission.
What about Satan? Is he also considered an angel? In Islam, Satan was created an angel, until he refused to bow down to Adam when he was created, therefore God changed him from a being of light to a being of fire, and cast him out of heaven and (I think) into hell, for disobeying His command. Is it the same according to Jewish teachings?
I don't know from where you got such info that the Satan was an angel then changed to jinn!!! As stated by Raed the Quran is clear and the Satan is a jinn who is created from fire but accodring to the tafseer he used to do angels jobs and lived with them but when he disobeyd Allah and refused to bow to Adam Allah punished him. Then he requested Allah to respite him til the final day and his duty is to mislead people to throw them with him in the hell fire.
He said: My Lord! then respite me to the day that they are raised.
He said: Surely you are of the respited ones,
Till the period of the time made known.
He said: Then by Thy Might I will surely make them live an evil life, all,
Except Thy servants from among them, the purified ones.
He said: The truth then is and the truth do I speak:
That I will most certainly fill hell with you and with those among them who follow you, all.
Angels can appear in different forms, because we know as per the hadith that angel Gibreal came to the prophet once in a form of a man. Also the prophet saw angel Gibreal twice in his original form (i.e the way Allah created him) as stated in some Hadiths. They have wings as mentioned in the Quran and I read sometime that angel Gibreal has 600 wings.
MorphaKnight
24-09-05, 09:13 AM
Isn't there a difference between jinn's and demons? By demons I mean the shaytan. Whats their difference though? Is it that demons are always obeyful of satan and Jinn have a choice to follow whichever religion?
I don't know from where you got such info that the Satan was an angel then changed to jinn!!! As stated by Raed the Quran is clear and the Satan is a jinn who is created from fire but accodring to the tafseer he used to do angels jobs and lived with them but when he disobeyd Allah and refused to bow to Adam Allah punished him. Then he requested Allah to respite him til the final day and his duty is to mislead people to throw them with him in the hell fire.
He said: My Lord! then respite me to the day that they are raised.
He said: Surely you are of the respited ones,
Till the period of the time made known.
He said: Then by Thy Might I will surely make them live an evil life, all,
Except Thy servants from among them, the purified ones.
He said: The truth then is and the truth do I speak:
That I will most certainly fill hell with you and with those among them who follow you, all.
Angels can appear in different forms, because we know as per the hadith that angel Gibreal came to the prophet once in a form of a man. Also the prophet saw angel Gibreal twice in his original form (i.e the way Allah created him) as stated in some Hadiths. They have wings as mentioned in the Quran and I read sometime that angel Gibreal has 600 wings.
6ayeb a rep man! 7es 3la damik! :XD:
fatamooo
24-09-05, 06:43 PM
Ice Tea, the tafseer that I got was that Iblees was an angel created from 'noor', until his pride made him refuse an order from Allah SWT, and then he said, 'kaif asjid la Adam, huwa min 6een wa ana min nar?' when he was supposed to say, 'min noor' but Allah ... mmm... ya3ni 3awwaj his tongue, so that he said 'nar' and then changed him from light to fire, and cast him from heaven...
fatamoo, that can't be true because angels are created to obey Allah only they don't have a free will. That is why all angels obey Allah order to bow to Adam but Iblees didn't.
MorphaKnight
24-09-05, 07:52 PM
It's rather odd though when you think about it. Perhaps there was a time when he did bow down to God. It sounds strange to keep an evil being in heaven for who knows how long before Adam was created. Also.. sometimes I wonder that when he was banished from heaven.. how is it that he was capable of convincing adam and eve to eat the tree..
It's rather odd though when you think about it. Perhaps there was a time when he did bow down to God. It sounds strange to keep an evil being in heaven for who knows how long before Adam was created.
If he used to do angel jobs and lived with them, it means he was not evil in the begining but later he turned to be evil when he refused to bow to Adam and disobeyed Allah. That is what I think.
how is it that he was capable of convincing adam and eve to eat the tree..
About how he was able to convince Adam & Eve, because he lyed to them:
But Satan whispered evil to him: he said, "O Adam! shall I lead thee to the Tree of Eternity and to a kingdom that never decays?"
morpha... see you are mixing things.. In Islam this whole mixing up is avoided by introducing a different race called Jin who have good guys bad guys Muslims and Non Muslims and so on.. so when you say evil.. that does not apply to good Jinn
MorphaKnight
24-09-05, 10:29 PM
About how he was able to convince Adam & Eve, because he lyed to them:
But Satan whispered evil to him: he said, "O Adam! shall I lead thee to the Tree of Eternity and to a kingdom that never decays?"
uhm you missed the question. See, isn't it known that heaven is a perfect place where no evil doer can exist. When Satan refused to do what God ordered him to do (which is obviously the worst of evils and thus he is an evil person), how is it that he still stayed in heaven in order to decieve adam and eve?
MorphaKnight
24-09-05, 10:31 PM
morpha... see you are mixing things.. In Islam this whole mixing up is avoided by introducing a different race called Jin who have good guys bad guys Muslims and Non Muslims and so on.. so when you say evil.. that does not apply to good Jinn
I didn't mix things. I asked if there is a difference between the shayateen and the jinn. I know the jinn are much like humans who have the choice to either follow God or disobey him. But what about the shayateen? Are they satan's version of "angels" who only obey him and only him?
aywah.. 7elwah. ya morpha come here hug time :
now this is why many scholars took what you have just posted as a clear proof that the heaven referred to is not the one we have been promised,cause there won't be any tests there.
I didn't mix things. I asked if there is a difference between the shayateen and the jinn. I know the jinn are much like humans who have the choice to either follow God or disobey him. But what about the shayateen? Are they satan's version of "angels" who only obey him and only him?
clearly not as it was stated by Quran that this act of disobeying was done by a person not a race.
MorphaKnight
24-09-05, 10:41 PM
you mean the heaven that adam and eve lived in was more of a testing ground rather than the real heaven itself? It does seem logical.. given the fact that the forbidden tree can't exist in a perfect place among all the other good things around it.
there were two camps and the argument is best explained between those who believed it to be the heaven the only heaven, and those who thought it was just another beautiful place in "حادي الأرواح إلى بلاد الأفراح" by ابن القيم
Milliardo Peacecraft
25-09-05, 05:25 AM
uhm you missed the question. See, isn't it known that heaven is a perfect place where no evil doer can exist. When Satan refused to do what God ordered him to do (which is obviously the worst of evils and thus he is an evil person), how is it that he still stayed in heaven in order to decieve adam and eve?
I wouldn't know much about Islam, but certainly in Christianity Satan was banished from heaven after he disobeyed God. Now, did God made him evil? No, because God cannot create evil; however, it was his own choice to make himself evil, thus the transformation.
MorphaKnight
25-09-05, 05:33 AM
^the same was also applied in Islam. After God Banished satan then the next scene occurs.. Satan eventually convinces Adam and Eve to eat from the forbidden tree. This question more or less applies to all the 3 major religion. How is it that after he was banished, Satan has existed in heaven to talk to Adam and Eve to have them eat the forbidden fruit.
uhm you missed the question. See, isn't it known that heaven is a perfect place where no evil doer can exist. When Satan refused to do what God ordered him to do (which is obviously the worst of evils and thus he is an evil person), how is it that he still stayed in heaven in order to decieve adam and eve?
Scholars have different views about Adam heaven. Is it the same heaven that humans will enter, or is Adam heaven a different one, is it above the skeys or in the earth. So the issue is not known, and better to say Allah knows best in my opinion.
I didn't mix things. I asked if there is a difference between the shayateen and the jinn. I know the jinn are much like humans who have the choice to either follow God or disobey him. But what about the shayateen? Are they satan's version of "angels" who only obey him and only him?
Both shayateen and jinn made from fire. So now it's a matter of classification and namings, the shyateen are the ones who are devil and do evil things like Iblees and his gang, there jinn called "afareet" they are more powerful then normal jinns. There are muslim and kafir jinns.
MorphaKnight
25-09-05, 09:40 AM
Scholars have different views about Adam heaven. Is it the same heaven that humans will enter, or is Adam heaven a different one, is it above the skeys or in the earth. So the issue is not known, and better to say Allah knows best in my opinion.
Well it seems more believable if it was a testing ground seeing that no evil can exist in the perfect place of all time. The fact that if both Satan and the forbidden tree existed in this testing ground would more or less mean that this heaven isnt meant for the ones that are promised for humans.
MorphaKnight
25-09-05, 09:50 AM
Both shayateen and jinn made from fire. So now it's a matter of classification and namings, the shyateen are the ones who are devil and do evil things like Iblees and his gang, there jinn called "afareet" they are more powerful then normal jinns. There are muslim and kafir jinns.
Isn't there also blue fire and red fire.. I heard something like that but I think it was some made up rumor. But even though they are made of fire, they could be more or less a different number of races for all we know. I think the Ifrits (3afareets) are the demons or shayateen. Then again for all we know arabic is a rich language and has many words for the same object or creature..
I wouldn't know much about Islam, but certainly in Christianity Satan was banished from heaven after he disobeyed God. Now, did God made him evil? No, because God cannot create evil; however, it was his own choice to make himself evil, thus the transformation.
Well in Islam it is not the case so..
monotheism
03-10-05, 10:20 PM
Isaiah states: "I form light and create darkness, I make weal and create woe; I the L-RD do all these things." ([Isaiah] 45:7) Jews recite this twice daily in their prayers.
This is a classic anti-dualist statement. The dualist school, associated with Zoroastrianism, held that the world was controlled by two forces, dark and light - and it is this polytheistic stand that Isaiah, Prophet of G-d, rejects. Isaiah teaches that evil/the devil has no independent power at all; it is merely an agent of G-d, sent to entice man to sin. It can rebel against G-d no more than an axe can rebel against the woodchopper.
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