Saints in Christianity

[fatamooo]

I'm interested in learning about all the different types of saints in Christianity.

How many saints are there?

What exactly is there position in Christianity?

Are all the saints idolized equally in different sects of Christianity and different countries?

What makes a saint?

[Pineapple Thief]

Another coincidence. I'm reading a book where the main character (one of) studies saints, and it goes into a fair amount of detail. Apparently theres hundreds, if not thousands.

Good luck ;)

[Milliardo Peacecraft]

I'm not sure one thread will be able to list all of the saints in the Catholic Church alone (I am Catholic and I don't even know all of the saints). The Orthodox Church has its own list of saints. Protestantism by and large do not have any list, though some (like Anglicans) might. Their role in Christianity? They are seen as role models who strove to imitate Jesus and live His life.

[Pineapple Thief]

I read that theres a body that that officially recognises Saints, and they need to perform 3 'miracles' to be considered saints..true?

[Milliardo Peacecraft]

I read that theres a body that that officially recognises Saints, and they need to perform 3 'miracles' to be considered saints..true?

Yes there is, though maybe I would recommend that those interested read the article in New Advent itself: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02364b.htm Just to highlight some points regarding the process of canonization (the actual process towards sainthood): The canonization of confessors or martyrs may be taken up as soon as two miracles are reported to have been worked at their intercession, after the pontifical permission of public veneration as described above. At this stage it is only required that the two miracles worked after the permission awarding a public cultus be discussed in three meetings of the congregation. The discussion proceeds in the ordinary way; if the miracles be confirmed another meeting (super tuto) is held. The Pope then issues a Bull of Canonization in which he not only permits, but commands, the public cultus, or veneration, of the saint.

So it only needs two miracles, not three.

[fatamooo]

And are those two miracles (or three) anything specific or are they miracles that are different with each saint?

So if the Pope is the one who confirms the sainthood (saintliness?) of the saints, does that mean that the men/women must be Roman Catholic in order to acheive the status?

Oh, and does this still happen? Or are there never going to be any more new saints ever?

[MorphaKnight]

That wasn't how it was in the movie! Val kilmer needed 3 miracles to be a saint! :p

[Milliardo Peacecraft]

And are those two miracles (or three) anything specific or are they miracles that are different with each saint?

No, it doesn't have to be specific.


So if the Pope is the one who confirms the sainthood (saintliness?) of the saints, does that mean that the men/women must be Roman Catholic in order to acheive the status?

Yes, they have to be Catholic.


Oh, and does this still happen? Or are there never going to be any more new saints ever?

Well, Mother Teresa's case is now being studied. Padre Pio has recently been made a saint. Pope John XXIII is also a candidate. Pope John Paul II is also a very good candidate.

[MorphaKnight]

But what miracles did John Paul II made though/?

[Milliardo Peacecraft]

But what miracles did John Paul II made though/?

Well, we shall know soon enough. ^_^

[MorphaKnight]

But shouldn't miracles be performed in public or in front of a number of witnesses in order for them to acknowledge them as saints? :os

[Milliardo Peacecraft]

But shouldn't miracles be performed in public or in front of a number of witnesses in order for them to acknowledge them as saints? :os

Not necessarily. It should be properly documented though, but not necessarily performed in public.

[amo_l_oman]

A good example is Padre Pio:

http://www.padrepio.it/ing/vita.htm

http://www.vatican.va/news_services/liturgy/saints/ns_lit_doc_20020616_index_padre-pio_en.html

[mimosa]

Point to note: There are saints in Islam too, depending on the sect. They are all male though I think. Even the Sunnis effectively have saints, because they venerate the Sahaba and other historical figures. But they won't admit it!

[MorphaKnight]

But I believe the sahaba aren't idolised or viewed as role models as much as the saints.. you could be right though. I haven't heard of such thing because I know that practically muslims idolise the prophet more than anyone else.. perhaps even loving him soo much to the point that they forget the message of God.

[mimosa]

I agree - the "pseudo-deification" of Mohammed (pbuh) is something which concerns me too, might be worth another thread.

[MorphaKnight]

I agree - the "pseudo-deification" of Mohammed (pbuh) is something which concerns me too, might be worth another thread.

you should have seen the thread in the politics forum where some people are concerned about the demolishing of the prophet's house..

[fatamooo]

Saints in Islam? Hmmm I never heard of that - well I guess it's how you define the word saint that would make the difference, after all in the eyes of the Catholic church, the sahaba would I'm sure, not qualify as saints, being that they were not christian, catholic and did not perform miracles....
I don't even know if the word 'saint' has an arabic translation! 'malak' means angel, saint is...???

[fatamooo]

Btw why is it that the person has to be dead to become a saint?

[Pineapple Thief]

Milliardo, can you give some information about what a 'fool-saint' is (if they actually exist, that is)?


PS Happy belated birthday :)

[Dark Project]

What’s the difference between a saint and a disciple ? Are disciples saints ? Or Disciples are only the ones who were Jesus (PBUH) followers during his time and saints could be any holy man after Him !!

[fatamooo]

I don't know if the comparison is correct, but I believe that disciples in Christianity are what sahaba were to the Prophet... they were the ones who carried on the doctrine after the prophets passed away...
And a saint I guess can be from any era, even right now, but like MP said, they must be catholic and perform two (or three?) miracles.

[fatamooo]

Oh and I just checked, and there are no such things as saints in Islam (translation: quddees) - the sahaba are highly respected and constantly being referred to fas sources for information after the Qoran and the Prophet's sunna, but they are not recognised as saints...

[Pineapple Thief]

Well of course they aren't literally recognised as Saints, Islam doesn't have this system - but because of the way we treat them - infallible, etc. (and not just the Sahaba) - one may be justified in perhaps making the comparison, as Mimosa did...

[DorellaM]

Saints are not necessarily acknowledged and idolized in Christianity (as a broader term), as they are in Catholicism. Catholicism is only a sect of Christianity. Some sects of Christianity recognize Saints and some don't.

[fatamooo]

PT - only angels and prophets are infallible, but the sahaba I believe are blessed, but still fallible... they didn't make any major mistakes, but they did make some, otherwise the Prophet wouldn't have been able to teach them Islam - like when they used to kill baby infants who were girls, or drink, etc...

[MorphaKnight]

^I think he means infallible as in, some people try to bring them closer to God.. as if they were god like of some sort.. the case isn't the same with the sahaba.. I mean not God like but its as if SOME people view them as very important figures.. way too important like that of the level of the prophet.

[cLueLess]

Muslim Shi3a believe in awlia2 and idolize them a little too much. They believe that the awlia2 preformed/witnessed great miracles, and praying at a wali’s grave/home guarantees that Allah would very soon answer their prayers. I guess awlia2 in Islam are the closest thing to saints in Christianity.

[mimosa]

When I mentioned "Islamic Saints" I was referring to the veneration of Awlia'. The word is normally translated into English as "saints" when in that context.

As I understand it, all of the twelve disciples of Jesus are considered saints in the Catholic doctrine. But there are many other saints in their faith, ancient and modern. You do not have to be dead to be a saint, and as far as I can tell even a miracle is not absolutely necessary, rather an investigation into their purity of faith and lifestyle. But most saints are dead before they become saints, just because the process of making someone a saint takes so long!

Personally there are many people either living or departed who I admire. But "saint" is a step too far for me.

[Pineapple Thief]

Thats what I was thinking as well - I dont know if I'm right or wrong, but my understanding of 'miracle' in this context may simply be, as mimosa said, a remarkable purity of faith and lifestyle.

[fatamooo]

But the translation then is wrong, because awlia2 aren't saints...

[mimosa]

There isn't another short word in English for a person revered by the religious for their piety, deeds and spiritual learning. And as I said, it is only translated that way in that context. The point is that the principle and practice of veneration is similar between Shi3a awlia' and Catholic saints.

[amo_l_oman]

Yo finally i found the canonization procedures, and i was supposed to be catholic till 5 years ago lol

http://www.catholic.org/saints/faq.php#choose

http://www.repubblica.it/online/fatti/beato/santo/santo.html

For second use good old Google translator.

[Milliardo Peacecraft]

So many questions! I'll try to answer them all, but please bear with me since my job gives me a whacked schedule, and so most of what I do is simply rest when I get home...

[Milliardo Peacecraft]

What’s the difference between a saint and a disciple ? Are disciples saints ? Or Disciples are only the ones who were Jesus (PBUH) followers during his time and saints could be any holy man after Him !!

A disciple is a follower; a disciple may not be necessarily become a saint, but certainly Christians, whether a saint or not, are disciples of Christ.

[Milliardo Peacecraft]

Milliardo, can you give some information about what a 'fool-saint' is (if they actually exist, that is)?


PS Happy belated birthday :)

Thanks for the greeting! :)

I am not sure what a fool-saint is, though there was a saint who might more or less fit that decription, and that's St. Neri, who used humor in preaching about Christ.

[Milliardo Peacecraft]

As I understand it, all of the twelve disciples of Jesus are considered saints in the Catholic doctrine.

Most of the Disciples, except Judas, are considered saints in the whole of Christianity, whether Catholic, Orthodox or Protestant.


You do not have to be dead to be a saint, and as far as I can tell even a miracle is not absolutely necessary, rather an investigation into their purity of faith and lifestyle.

Quite correct in some aspects, though the necessity for one to be "dead" as it is, to be a saint is for some reasons, like that the certainty of that person to be with God more perfectly now than when alive. As well, usually it needs about 2-3 generations removed fom the saint's life before canonization takes place, to ensure that those who would attest for the saint are doing so not because of any personal bias. Miracles are needed and required to become a siant; a miracle in essence does not mean the saint does miracles (no one can, excpet Christ), but because God works through them.