As a non Muslim I have been deeply encoouraged by the Muslim community in Britain and around the World to the atrocities in London. Also a recent survey of 17000 Muslims in Indonesia, Lebanon, Iraq and other countries shows that support for suicide bombings of civilians has dropped dramatically.

Is this a turning point despite the many hurt and embittered people of all faiths or non faiths? I hope so, and I welcome my brothers in common humanity irrespective of race creed or colour to England. But not all at once please!

Glad to see such an open-minded, free-thinking person on this board. Its quite refreshing to know that people can still be hopeful of the future in spite of all the tragic misunderstanding that plagues us today.

I for one, as a Muslim, am angered by the closed-mindedness of some on both sides (if you could reduce them down to two) and find it overwhelming and exhausting having to clarify misconceptions of Islam to both non-Muslims AND Muslims.

Islam, to me, is and always will be a religion of peace and tolerance (if I didn't firmly believe this I would no longer be a Muslim). It doesn't advocate or excuse unprovoked violence and it is very clear in its definition of what provoked violence is.

The actions of suicide bombers and these London bombers in particular disgust me and every other believer. It does nothing for the plight of world harmony or the plight of Muslims to gain some legitimacy in the non-Muslim world. I only wish more people voiced their disapproval instead of viewing this thread in silence.

Can you please explain the differences between provoked and unprovoked violence ?

Wudjab,

In Islam, there are only three instances in which violence is an option. These are:
(1) when Muslims are not allowed to practice their faith, that is, when freedom of religion is threatened;
(2) when people are oppressed and subjugated; and
(3) when people's land is forcibly taken from them

(http://www.usip.org/pubs/specialreports/sr82.html)

Even then, it is only one course of action and if it is grounded in the broader philosophies of Islam, I would go as far as saying it is the least favourable option.
The Quran has many verses that call for an existence of peace and tolerance and promotes equality among the masses. These are reasserted in the Sunnah of the Prophet Mohammad ( namely his exemplary life in deed and word).

I would recommend the following article for a more comprehensive explanation. (http://in.rediff.com/news/2005/aug/30guest1.htm)

Some relevant Quranic verses are given below, for your information:

[Quran 49:13]"O people, we created you from the same male and female, and rendered you distinct peoples and tribes, that you may recognize one another. The best among you in the sight of GOD is the most righteous. GOD is Omniscient, Cognizant. "

[Quran 5:87] ... and do not aggress; GOD dislikes the aggressors.

[Quran: 7:199] ......You shall resort to pardon, advocate tolerance, and disregard the ignorant.

[Quran 5:32] "......, we decreed for the Children of Israel that anyone who murders any person who had not committed murder or horrendous crimes, it shall be as if he murdered all the people. And anyone who spares a life, it shall be as if he spared the lives of all the people. .............."
[Quran 2:256] "There shall be no compulsion in religion...".

[Quran 60:8]"GOD does not enjoin you from befriending those who do not fight you because of religion, and do not evict you from your homes. You may befriend them and be equitable towards them. GOD loves the equitable."

[Quran 8:61]"If they resort to peace, so shall you, and put your trust in GOD. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient."

[Quran 4:90]"...... Therefore, if they leave you alone, refrain from fighting you, and offer you peace, then GOD gives you no excuse to fight them."

( www.submission.org/terrorism.html)

I hope this helps...

I wonder how we all missed this post so long ago?

In Islam, there are only three instances in which violence is an option. These are:
(1) when Muslims are not allowed to practice their faith, that is, when freedom of religion is threatened;
(2) when people are oppressed and subjugated; and
(3) when people's land is forcibly taken from them
(3)no problem ... but do you consider Spain muslim land?
(2)who decides this?
(1)can you give us the definition of an "open ended" answer now? ;)

This from a "tolerant" muslim perspective ... So much for unity :rolleyes:

When Islam is a supremacist ideology that aims to conquer and subjugate. How do we know this? Muslims have proudly documented this for us. Non-muslims didn't even have to do this work ;)

(3)no problem ... but do you consider Spain muslim land?
(2)who decides this?
(1)can you give us the definition of an "open ended" answer now? ;)

This from a "tolerant" muslim perspective ... So much for unity :rolleyes:

Jack - a strange post there if you don't mind me saying...

Are you asking if I personally believe Spain to be Muslim land?! Haha! Well if you'd asked me 500 years ago.....

I'd guess there are some who might. It's certainly still talked about as one of our lands with some fondness. Yet I can't remember seeing any groups at uni or lurking around some of the less-pleasant 'non-tolerant' Muslim websites out there advocating taking back those lands. Equally, I have some Greek friends who occasionally harp back to the glory days of Byzantium and how Asia Minor was once Greek. Not too many groups out there who would seriously consider that! I think also, if you look on the web hard enough, you'll find a group of people who are looking to re-instate the Roman Empire and lay claim to all it's lands circa 300AD...

But as to whether we would eschew violence to reclaim Al Andalus... I feel confident in saying no, we would not!

As to who decides whether one is being oppressed or not - I think that is reasonably self-explanatory. If you are being oppressed, you'd know it! :)oppression (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=oppression)


And your last one... hmmm... you are are a queer one Jack! You know, I've got absolutely no idea what you are on about. But from the emoticons I suspect you mean ill. Shame on you Jack!

If Falun Gong were brothers and sisters, I'd say that they were reasonably entitled to use violence. That the Muslims in China chose not to use violence in their own period of official non-existence speaks very highly of their deen and demonstrates my point that violence is only one solution.

I'd guess there are some who might. It's certainly still talked about as one of our lands with some fondness.Please list "our lands". I would hate to go to one of y ... our lands and find myself not welcome with my personal views of Islam. I got a big mouth :cry:

But as to whether we would eschew violence to reclaim Al Andalus... I feel confident in saying no, we would not!Since you seem to be speaking for all muslims.

Are you famaliar with this man ... Abu Musab al-Suri (http://siteinstitute.org/bin/articles.cgi?ID=publications125505&Category=publications&Subcategory=0)

Please list "our lands". I would hate to go to one of y ... our lands and find myself not welcome with my personal views of Islam. I got a big mouth :cry:

Since you seem to be speaking for all muslims.

Are you famaliar with this man ... Abu Musab al-Suri (http://siteinstitute.org/bin/articles.cgi?ID=publications125505&Category=publications&Subcategory=0)

You don't have a big mouth Jack. I think there's enough live and let live in your heart to make you a welcome visitor to any country. That you are here and not here (http://jihadwatch.org/) speaks volumes. :)

Re al-Suri, no, I am not familiar with him. But I thought my point re crackpot minorities who have both feet well and truly in the past was made. I only claim to be speaking for the vast majority! :)

I have no problem multi-tasking. I'm here (http://jihadwatch.org/) and here (http://jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/) and here (http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com/) and here (http://www.faithfreedom.org/index.htm) and here (http://www.natashatynes.org/) and here (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051203/people_nm/smith_dc_1;_ylt=Aiy38saUumM0RHtFvFqkkDB.KcMA;_ylu= X3oDMTA5bGVna3NhBHNlYwNzc3JlbA--) ... and many more (http://www.rightwingnuthouse.com/).

And the vast majority of muslims I have no problem with. Only 5 or 10 % of 1.3 billion ...

My how my views have changed since this thread was started.

I suspect the daily attrocities are taking their toll

Mind you I like Raffee so perhaps there is stil some hope.

Thanks, the feeling is mutual mate.

and as our Italian friends remind us...Finche c'e vita c'e speranza (As long as there is life there is hope:))

It speaks volumes that, immediately after the bombings, Al-Tort's views were as stated above, and now he sees Islam completely differently. No blame to you of course, Mr. Tort, the blame lies on us (muslims), who seemingly cannot speak in a single coherent voice, because we're too busy being defensive about everything to do with Islam while a the same time being pretty muddled about, well, lots of internal islamic issues.

Perhaps some critics are right, perhaps we do need a sort of higher authority, 'Pope' system...

Thanks PT - as long as there are advocates like you, Amo and Raffee I must consider that I might be wrong, but I think you are right - it would help enormously if you could speak with one loud voice and put the warlike jihadists to shame.

the blame lies on us (muslims), who seemingly cannot speak in a single coherent voice, because we're too busy being defensive about everything to do with Islam while a the same time being pretty muddled about, well, lots of .

Can't agree more .... we ( muslims ) really need a lot to change the view that have beed taken about Islam which is totally wrong ...BUT none will see it as we do ... everyone will see whats happening and judge according to it

On a slightly off topic issue, but slightly relevant since you are based in Oz, whats your opinion Rafee on The Forum on Australia's Islamic Relations which wants a community debate to find an alternative to the word Christmas – suggesting the word "festive" as a possible replacement.

Islamic-relations forum director, Kuranda Seyit, told The Sunday Mail it was time for Australia to fall in line with places such as the UK, where councils have renamed Christmas "Winterval" and replaced references to Christmas on signage with the words "Festive" and "Winter".

"Australia is now so diverse and there are so many cultures and festivities, we need to acknowledge the need to be inclusive of our identity."

He expected his plan would insult some people, but urged a "step-by-step" approach.

"A word like Festive is a good word but the community should make an effort to come up with an alternative to Christmas. Schools will take a leading role in terms of political correctness. The younger generation will grow up and say 'it's not fair'."

On a slightly off topic issue, but slightly relevant since you are based in Oz, whats your opinion Rafee on The Forum on Australia's Islamic Relations which wants a community debate to find an alternative to the word Christmas – suggesting the word "festive" as a possible replacement.

Islamic-relations forum director, Kuranda Seyit, told The Sunday Mail it was time for Australia to fall in line with places such as the UK, where councils have renamed Christmas "Winterval" and replaced references to Christmas on signage with the words "Festive" and "Winter".

"Australia is now so diverse and there are so many cultures and festivities, we need to acknowledge the need to be inclusive of our identity."

He expected his plan would insult some people, but urged a "step-by-step" approach.

"A word like Festive is a good word but the community should make an effort to come up with an alternative to Christmas. Schools will take a leading role in terms of political correctness. The younger generation will grow up and say 'it's not fair'."
Yes Yes ...would should call "all" of these holidays ... Festivus

No christmas ... no Eid ... no Hanaka .... just FESTIVUS

And we could all dress like the chinese so we would all look identical

Jack I nearly fell off my chair laughing!!! :D You are hilarious.

Wudjab, please refer to my view of political correctness here (http://www.englishsabla.com/forum/showthread.php?t=34223)
I for one have no problem with the terms Christmas or Christ or Santa Claus or even Rudolph. The more festivities the world has the better! I do wish people would grow up and stop making a mountain out of a mole-hill. I think those that spend their energies on such insignificant non-issues should be ignored. Perhaps that's why I have no idea who this Kuranda Seyit is :eh: .

raffee ... they don't hear you.

These muslims don't want any part of unity. They want their god given right per the quran of violent jihad.

To my utter horror -- and I should have written this report two days ago but my physical and emotional shock have rendered me nearly inert -- it was a seven-hour call to Jihad by a succession of ranting and shouting rabble-rousers. (http://www.currentviewpoint.com/cgibin/news.cgi?id=11&command=shownews&newsid=826)

This is part of the 10% x 1.3 bil = 13 million muslims that concern me.

Im sure if these muslims were asked to rename Eid to 'Festivus' they would be upset.

I want Christmas. I want Christmas, Eid, Hannukah, Easter, whatever, because its good to be different, and its good to celebrate it.

PT the voice of reason as always - you get my vote.