The Khilafah

[wudjab]

Why do Moslems not consider Islam imperialistic ?

These are direct quotes from the Quran :

Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.-Qur'an, 9:29

He it is Who hath sent His messenger with the guidance and the Religion of Truth, that He may cause it to prevail over all religion, however much the infidels may be averse.-Qur'an, 9:33

He it is Who sent His Messenger with the guidance and the true religion that He may make it prevail over all the religions; and Allah is enough for a witness.-Qur'an, 48:28

He it is Who hath sent His messenger with the guidance and the religion of truth, that He may make it conqueror of all religion however much the infidels may be averse. -Qur'an, 61:9

Seems fairly imperialistic to me. All this stuff of prevailing over other religions, forciing submissing and subdueing, enforcing Islam however averse others nay be to it.

Waiting for comments from our anti American friend.

[shamsery]

Seems fairly imperialistic to me.

It is really important to know , what you mean by " imperialistic " ?

[Pineapple Thief]

Moved to religion sabla.

[wudjab]

Exactly the same meaning you apply to US policy.

[jack]

This is websters definition ... were is Abs ... I know he's going to b1tch slap me :p

Main Entry: im·pe·ri·al·ism
Pronunciation: im-'pir-E-&-"li-z&m
Function: noun
1 : imperial government, authority, or system
2 : the policy, practice, or advocacy of extending the power and dominion of a nation especially by direct territorial acquisitions or by gaining indirect control over the political or economic life of other areas; broadly : the extension or imposition of power, authority, or influence

Yes I would say Islam is definitely imperialistic by this definition.

Do you have another definition shams ?

[shamsery]

I could not understand why the thread moved to religion sabla.
Can we discuss politics here?

[malak84]

Salam

well no, Isalm is not imperialistic Islam is comprehending...

as i understand from the word imperialistic in general is prevailing over somthing with new rules and deleting the previous BUT Isalm is comprehending it contains everything what was in the prevouis books that has been sent down from Allah of other religions... we belive in Bilbe, Tawrah,Zaboor...and how did we know about it? it's all has been written in Quran...its all talking about one thing which is (No God should be worshiped except Allah )

[malak84]

Why do Moslems not consider Islam imperialistic ?

These are direct quotes from the Quran :

Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.-Qur'an, 9:29
Becouse
"The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth! "9:30
and
"They take their priests and their anchorites to be their lords in derogation of Allah, and (they take as their Lord) Christ the son of Mary; yet they were commanded to worship but One Allah: there is no god but He. Praise and glory to Him: (Far is He) from having the partners they associate (with Him)."9:31

That's why
He it is Who hath sent His messenger with the guidance and the Religion of Truth, that He may cause it to prevail over all religion, however much the infidels may be averse.-Qur'an, 9:33

He it is Who sent His Messenger with the guidance and the true religion that He may make it prevail over all the religions; and Allah is enough for a witness.-Qur'an, 48:28

"Muhammad is the messenger of Allah; and those who are with him are strong against Unbelievers, (but) compassionate amongst each other. Thou wilt see them bow and prostrate themselves (in prayer), seeking Grace from Allah and (His) Good Pleasure. On their faces are their marks, (being) the traces of their prostration. This is their similitude in the Taurat; and their similitude in the Gospel is: like a seed which sends forth its blade, then makes it strong; it then becomes thick, and it stands on its own stem, (filling) the sowers with wonder and delight. As a result, it fills the Unbelievers with rage at them. Allah has promised those among them who believe and do righteous deeds forgiveness, and a great Reward." 48:29

He it is Who hath sent His messenger with the guidance and the religion of truth, that He may make it conqueror of all religion however much the infidels may be averse. -Qur'an, 61:9

Seems fairly imperialistic to me. All this stuff of prevailing over other religions, forciing submissing and subdueing, enforcing Islam however averse others nay be to it.

Waiting for comments from our anti American friend.

It seems that for every verse you provided wisdom behind it ;)

[wudjab]

Mr. Sham.

Lets not divert this topic by debating whether it belongs in Politics or Religion.

I eagerly await your valuable insights.

Based on the verses I quoted from the Quran, Islam is definitely Imperialistic in that is wishes to imposes it belief system on others.

Lets have your ideas.

[jack]

Salam

well no, Isalm is not imperialistic Islam is comprehending...

as i understand from the word imperialistic in general is prevailing over somthing with new rules and deleting the previous BUT Isalm is comprehending it contains everything what was in the prevouis books that has been sent down from Allah of other religions... we belive in Bilbe, Tawrah,Zaboor...and how did we know about it? it's all has been written in Quran...its all talking about one thing which is (No God should be worshiped except Allah )Main Entry: com·pre·hend
Pronunciation: "käm-pri-'hend
Function: transitive verb
Etymology: Middle English, from Latin comprehendere, from com- + prehendere to grasp -- more at GET
1 : to grasp the nature, significance, or meaning of
2 : to contain or hold within a total scope, significance, or amount
3 : to include by construction or implication

I've never heard of a political system "comprehending" that's a new one on me. Naaa ... it does not fit ... good try putting a square peg in a round hole, but try again.

Has shamy left the building?

[Shinoda LP]

Malak, I don't think 'comprehending' was the right word at all. Even if it was, it just made a sudden stop little over a thousand years ago, didn't it; I mean, as soon as the Quran was written and all?

Paganism, as we now know it, was the religion of the people who lived in pre-Islamic Arabia. I had a thread here a long while back questioning if it could have been Hinduism according to certain researchers' works, but that idea wasn't taken very well among hardcore believers. Anyways, once again as we know now, those very people were given an option to adopt Islam or be forced to adopt Islam ... no wasn't a very good choice back then. Whipping, throwing people off the tallest land rises, stoning etc were all enforced as punishments ... so, hard to find pagan-followers accept such a peaceful religion, without being forced to, correct?

I'm not saying Islam is imperialistic or not, I'm just counter arguing your point, thats all.

[shamsery]

Mr.Wudjab,
Problem is that you never wish to describe anything with positive attitude.
Whose translation you are following?
I have checked only one verse quoted by you, 9:33, you have written, infidels but I get Idolaters
Islam does not promote imperialism.
Islam do not preach to occupy other territory, others wealth.
Regarding your question, on theology, there are other people, who can meet your inquisitiveness.
Talking on Holy Quran is not easy task for me.

[wudjab]

Take your pick:

009.033
YUSUFALI: It is He Who hath sent His Messenger with guidance and the Religion of Truth, to proclaim it over all religion, even though the Pagans may detest (it).
PICKTHAL: He it is Who hath sent His messenger with the guidance and the Religion of Truth, that He may cause it to prevail over all religion, however much the idolaters may be averse.
SHAKIR: He it is Who sent His Messenger with guidance and the religion of truth, that He might cause it to prevail over all religions, though the polytheists may be averse.

Pagans, infidels, idolators, polytheists.

So it will prevail over the above, no matter how much they are averse.

Reeks of Imperialism.

You claimed Islam was not Imperialistic and now you say you don't know and others should defend you claim ?

You must realise all this stuff about the message of truth, etc, etc, is only the truth if you belive in it. In other words, only if you are a moslem. Non moslems do not consider it to be the truth.

Now how is it compatible with your hatred for Imperialism when your faith declares it is the only truth and it will prevail over all others, even if they do not subscribe to it.

I also remind you of this :

Here is the text of the message the Prophet Mohammad sent to the Julanda brothers through the intermediary of his Messengers, 'Amr bin al-'As al-Sahmi and Abu Zaid al-Ansari.

"Peace be upon the one who follows the right path! I call you to Islam. Accept my call, and you shall be unharmed. I am God's Messenger to mankind, and the word shall be carried out upon the miscreants. If, therefore, you recognize Islam, I shall bestow power upon you. But if you refuse to accept Islam, your power shall vanish, my horses shall camp on the expanse of your territory and my prophecy shall prevail in your kingdom."

Look forward to your valued insights.

PS: please do not try to derail this topic such that the mods are forced to step in and lock it.

[jack]

Mr.Wudjab,
Problem is that you never wish to describe anything with positive attitude.
Whose translation you are following?
I have checked only one verse quoted by you, 9:33, you have written, infidels but I get Idolaters
Islam does not promote imperialism.
Islam do not preach to occupy other territory, others wealth.
Regarding your question, on theology, there are other people, who can meet your inquisitiveness.
Talking on Holy Quran is not easy task for me.Ok shams swap infidel with Idolator ... no problem.

Now what does that have to do with the premise Islam is not Imperialistic?

You say Islam does not promote imperialism or preach to occupy others territory blah blah blah ... when we can show the verses and hadith that say just the opposite.

Then you say I don't know ... don't ask me?

Let me help you shams ... you oppose all imperialism with the exception of islamic imperialism because it is the word of god and how can we question that?

Now wipe that egg off your face, buck up and be a man!

[shamsery]

I have replied MrJack,
None of the verse advocate to occupy others territory.

Explain one by one if so.
Can you?

[shamsery]

Mr.Wudjab,
Same reply for you.

[jack]

I have replied MrJack,
None of the verse advocate to occupy others territory.

Explain one by one if so.
Can you?Your denial is amazing with the overwhelming reality ... Now shams how did it make it all the way to spain and "occupy" spain?

This is just one example ... there are many.

Would mohammad have disapproved of the spain occupation?

Here's some more prose for you on this one ...

"I tried to find myself
For a very long time
Somewhere I lost myself
Its so hard to find my way back home
My body’s roaming all day long
Feels like a real bad dream
I try so hard to break free
And even though I try
Something else is got a hold on me
Will I ever be in control of me
When will I wake up
Escape from this crazy dream
Maybe tomorrow
I’ll find a better dream for me"

[wudjab]

Lets take it one verse at a time:

Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Dayie, FIGHT those who do not have the same religious beliefs as you, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger ie, or hold a different value system than you do, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Bookie, or do not believe in Allah and his Prophet, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.ie, until they pay the penalty tax or are supressed-Qur'an, 9:29

He it is Who hath sent His messenger with the guidance and the Religion of Truth, that He may cause it to prevail over all religion, however much the infidels may be averse.-ie, This religion has to dominate all others even if they do not subscribe to it's beliefsQur'an, 9:33

He it is Who sent His Messenger with the guidance and the true religion that He may make it prevail over all the religions; and Allah is enough for a witness.ie, Same thing, only God can decide-Qur'an, 48:28

He it is Who hath sent His messenger with the guidance and the religion of truth, that He may make it conqueror of all religion however much the infidels may be averse. -ie, Impose your beliefs on all othersQur'an, 61:9

Now face upto the facts like a man.

[shamsery]

Your denial is amazing with the overwhelming reality ... Now shams how did it make it all the way to spain and "occupy" spain?

This is just one example ... there are many.


You mean it proves Islam is imperialistic ?
Anway , qoute other example so we can try to reply you in single go.

[shamsery]

Would mohammad have disapproved of the spain occupation?




Did you mean Prophet Muhammad (Pbuh)?
If so, my reply:
Ridicules, disgusting idiocy.
“You can't wake up a person who is pretending to be asleep. “

[shamsery]

Lets take it one verse at a time:

Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Dayie, FIGHT those who do not have the same religious beliefs as you, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger ie, or hold a different value system than you do, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Bookie, or do not believe in Allah and his Prophet, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.ie, until they pay the penalty tax or are supressed-Qur'an, 9:29

He it is Who hath sent His messenger with the guidance and the Religion of Truth, that He may cause it to prevail over all religion, however much the infidels may be averse.-ie, This religion has to dominate all others even if they do not subscribe to it's beliefsQur'an, 9:33

He it is Who sent His Messenger with the guidance and the true religion that He may make it prevail over all the religions; and Allah is enough for a witness.ie, Same thing, only God can decide-Qur'an, 48:28

He it is Who hath sent His messenger with the guidance and the religion of truth, that He may make it conqueror of all religion however much the infidels may be averse. -ie, Impose your beliefs on all othersQur'an, 61:9

Now face upto the facts like a man.

Take care before interpreting ,
ie, FIGHT those who do not have the same religious beliefs as you,
What you understood by the word FIGHT?
Do you know what is Jizya and when it was payable?

ie, This religion has to dominate all others even if they do not subscribe to it's beliefs
What you like to mean by dominate?
This is the verse:
“He it is Who hath sent His Messenger with the guidance and the religion of truth ,that He may cause it to prevail over all the religions; and Allah is sufficeth as a witness. “

Where you get that Holy Quran has instructed to –I e, Impose your beliefs on all others
Here is your comment,
Now face upto the facts like a man
Please read me clearly,
A man can be faced who has respect for logic, a truth seeker can be faced who want to find out the truth but a fanatic or idiot cannot be faced.
That would be wastage of time and energy.

[jack]

You mean it proves Islam is imperialistic ?
Anway , qoute other example so we can try to reply you in single go.No problem ... you just showed us another example for me. (http://209.151.72.86/forum/showthread.php?p=526395#post526395)

What were islamic soldiers doing in India? Do you think they were on holiday? :rolleyes:

[shamsery]

No problem ... you just showed us another example for me. (http://209.151.72.86/forum/showthread.php?p=526395#post526395)

What were islamic soldiers doing in India? Do you think they were on holiday? :rolleyes:

My comment may sound rude but fact.
It is honestly tire some to talk to a biased ignorant.
Knowledge is wisdom.
Neither you are trying to enlighten us with fact nor you trying to get the clear picture.
Your modus operandi is spreading malice against Islam.
Islam, Muslim, Khalipha , king ,ruler and soldiers are different terminology.
Hope you have the brain to understand this simple proposition.
Islam is a faith.
Islam is a believe.
Islam is a philosophy.
Make your mind, before asking question.
Surely he didn’t come there to play golf.
That a matter of research and I don’t know the reason.

[jack]

[b]My comment may sound rude but fact.
It is honestly tire some to talk to a biased ignorant.I agree ... Couldn't have said it better myself.

Knowledge is wisdom.Yes it is ... you obviously either have no knowledge whatsoever of the islamic political system. It's history or it's purpose.

Neither you are trying to enlighten us with fact nor you trying to get the clear picture.ohhhh quite contrare ... you don't want the facts of the history of islam ... you want a fantasy version.


Your modus operandi is spreading malice against Islam.When you don't like the facts this is always your stock prescripted answer.


Hope you have the brain to understand this simple proposition.Yes i have a brain and can look at given know variables and make my own conclusions. The one that we are discussing here is as easy as adding 1+1 ... Can you give the answer?


Surely he didn’t come there to play golf.I think we can safely say that he did not go to India, Spain, Iran, Oman or any other country to play golf.

That a matter of research and I don’t know the reason.Please do ... you will find the reason.

[wudjab]

Take care before interpreting ,
ie, FIGHT those who do not have the same religious beliefs as you,
What you understood by the word FIGHT?
Do you know what is Jizya and when it was payable?

Fight = indulge in war, dispute, conflict, oppress, suppress, you choose. What do you call fight ?
Jizya was a tax imposed on infidels. What do you know about Jizya ?

ie, This religion has to dominate all others even if they do not subscribe to it's beliefs
What you like to mean by dominate?

Dominate ? Surely you know the meaning of that

dom·i·nate ( P ) Pronunciation Key (dm-nt)
v. dom·i·nat·ed, dom·i·nat·ing, dom·i·nates
v. tr.
To control, govern, or rule by superior authority or power: Successful leaders dominate events rather than react to them.
To exert a supreme, guiding influence on or over: Ambition dominated their lives.
To enjoy a commanding, controlling position in: a drug company that dominates the tranquilizer market.
To overlook from a height: a view from the cliffside chalet that dominates the valley.

v. intr.
To have or exert strong authority or mastery.
To be situated in or occupy a position that is more elevated or decidedly superior to others.

This is the verse:
“He it is Who hath sent His Messenger with the guidance and the religion of truth ,that He may cause it to prevail over all the religions; and Allah is sufficeth as a witness. “

Where you get that Holy Quran has instructed to –I e, Impose your beliefs on all others

Here is your comment,
Now face upto the facts like a man
Please read me clearly,
A man can be faced who has respect for logic, a truth seeker can be faced who want to find out the truth but a fanatic or idiot cannot be faced.
That would be wastage of time and energy.

I understand that if you think too deeply about what we are dicussing you might make some discoveries that will not be very happy for you. You might have to radically change some of you most dearly held beliefs. But you got to take it like a man. If you can dish it out, you should be able to take it too.

Now please explain away this letter in light of the above :

Here is the text of the message the Prophet Mohammad sent to the Julanda brothers through the intermediary of his Messengers, 'Amr bin al-'As al-Sahmi and Abu Zaid al-Ansari.

"Peace be upon the one who follows the right path! I call you to Islam. Accept my call, and you shall be unharmed. I am God's Messenger to mankind, and the word shall be carried out upon the miscreants. If, therefore, you recognize Islam, I shall bestow power upon you. But if you refuse to accept Islam, your power shall vanish, my horses shall camp on the expanse of your territory and my prophecy shall prevail in your kingdom."

[shamsery]

Regarding your last paragraph, you talked in some other thread.
Please check that one.

[Mr Tickle]

The concept of the Khilafah is Imperialistic

The desire to make the world Islamic is Imperialistic

The invasions of Spain and India were Imperialistic

[wudjab]

Where is Mr Sham when we need him ?

[wudjab]

Patience is a virtue....

Procrastination is a sin...

[ti3gib]

have a look http://www.1924.org/media_monitor/index.php?id=1963_0_30_0_M

[wudjab]

So Mr. Sham, we are still waiting for your comments.....

No dodging, ducking or deflection please.

[wudjab]

Can't just let this die.

Come on now, lets debate the issue.

In case you forgot, the topic was 'Is Islam Imperialistic ?'

[EarThQuaKe]

Can't just let this die.

Come on now, lets debate the issue.

In case you forgot, the topic was 'Is Islam Imperialistic ?'

It will be great for me to learn from you, but I would like to know few things before I go on and decide if islam is 'Imperialistic' or not.

Here are a few questions that I would really appreciate it if you could give me an answer.

1. How close are these translated verses to the real arabic verses from the Quran? Can you say they are identical and the meaning is also identical?

2. How much do you know arabic and the science (as arabs call it) of arabic language?

3. How good are you in '3loom Al-Quran' "The science (Art) of Quran"?

4. Do you have a solid ground that you can refer to when interpreting or explaining a verse from the Quran?

Please answer these few questions so I can make my mind. Thank you :)

[wudjab]

Nope, thats what you are there for.

You tell me what the 'correct' trranslation should be.

Here is what some other moslem experts say.

Q. Is it obligatory for every Muslim to go out for jihad? Or is jihad mustahabb and not obligatory?.


A. Praise be to Allaah.
Physical jihad is the pinnacle of Islam, and some scholars regarded it as the sixth pillar of Islam.
The Muslims have neglected jihad for a long time, so they deserve the punishment of Allaah, to be humiliated, belittled and defeated. That humiliation will never be lifted from them until they come back to their religion as the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “When you enter into the ‘aynah transaction, hold the tails of oxen, are content with farming, and give up jihad, Allaah will cause humiliation to prevail over you, and will not withdraw it until you return to your commitment to Islam.” Narrated by Abu Dawood, 2956; classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh Abi Dawood.

[Translator’s note: ‘Aynah transaction means to sell a product for a known price with deferred payment and then buy it back from the purchaser for a lesser price, so the purchaser will still have to pay the difference in the future]

One of the strangest things to note is that we are living in a time when some of the Muslims are embarrassed to quote the verses and ahaadeeth on jihad in front of their kaafir friends. Their faces turn red because they are too shy to mention the rulings on the jizyah, slavery and killing prisoners of war. They wish that they could erase these verses and ahaadeeth from the Qur’aan and Sunnah so that they would not be criticized by this world with its backward principles despite its claims to be civilized. If they cannot erase them then they try to misinterpret them and distort their meanings so that they suit the whims and desires of their masters. I will not say so that they suit their whims and desires, for they are too weak to have their own whims and desires, and too ignorant. Rather it is the whims and desires of their masters and teachers among the missionaries and colonialists, the enemies of Islam.”

‘Umdat al-Tafseer, 1/46.
The result of that is that we hardly hear anything nowadays apart from the following phrases: world peace … peaceful coexistence … safe borders … a new world order … the calamities of war…

Those who proclaim the verses and ahaadeeth of jihad nowadays are subject to a number of accusations. They are called terrorists, extremists, enemies of peace and bloodthirsty, and are accused of wanting to destroy twentieth century civilization.

This is the unfortunate reality in which the Muslim ummah is living nowadays. That is because we have given up supporting our religion and doing the duties that Allaah has enjoined upon us.

Allaah has commanded us to support His religion and to wage jihad against His enemies.

There are so many verses that enjoin jihad against the mushrikeen and fighting them until all submission is for Allaah alone; they clearly state that it is obligatory and is prescribed and is compulsory. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Jihaad holy fighting in Allaah’s Cause) is ordained for you (Muslims) though you dislike it, and it may be that you dislike a thing which is good for you and that you like a thing which is bad for you. Allaah knows but you do not know”

[al-Baqarah 2:216]

Rulings on jihad

The scholars (may Allaah have mercy on them) have mentioned the rulings on jihad and have stated that jihad is of two types:

1 – Taking the initiative in fighting

This means pursuing the kaafirs in their lands and calling them to Islam and fighting them if they do not agree to submit to the rule of Islam.

This kind of jihad is fard kifaayah (a communal obligation upon the Muslims. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism, i.e. worshipping others besides Allaah), and the religion (worship) will all be for Allaah Alone [in the whole of the world]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allaah), then certainly, Allaah is All-Seer of what they do”

[al-Anfaal 8:39]

“Then when the Sacred Months (the Ist, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islamic calendar) have passed, then kill the Mushrikoon (see V.2:105) wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and lie in wait for them in each and every ambush. But if they repent and perform As‑Salaah (Iqaamat-as-Salaah), and give Zakaah, then leave their way free. Verily, Allaah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful”

[al-Tawbah 9:5]

“and fight against the Mushrikoon (polytheists, pagans, idolaters, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allaah) collectively as they fight against you collectively. But know that Allaah is with those who are Al‑Muttaqoon (the pious”

[al-Tawbah 9:36]

“March forth, whether you are light (being healthy, young and wealthy) or heavy (being ill, old and poor), and strive hard with your wealth and your lives in the Cause of Allaah. This is better for you, if you but knew”
[al-Tawbah 9:41]

It was narrated from Ibn ‘Umar that the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “I have been commanded to fight the people until they bear witness that there is no god but Allaah, and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allaah, and establish regular prayer, and pay zakaah, If they do that then their blood and wealth is safe from me, except by the laws of Islam, and their reckoning will be with Allaah.”

Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 24; Muslim, 29.

Muslim (3533) narrated from Abu Hurayrah that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Whoever dies without having fought or thought to himself about fighting has died following one of the branches of hypocrisy.”

All of these texts – and many others in the Qur’aan and Sunnah – [b]mean that it is obligatory for the Muslims to wage jihad against the kuffaar and take the initiative in that. The scholars are unanimously agreed that jihad against the kuffar, and seeking them in their own lands, and calling them to Islam, and waging jihad against them if they do not accept Islam or accept paying the jizyah, is obligatory and has not been abrogated.

Shaykh al-Islam (28/249) said:

Everyone who hears the call of the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) to the religion of Allaah with which he was sent and does not respond to it must be fought so that there will be no fitnah and so that submission will all be for Allaah.

Ibn ‘Atiyah said (2/43): There remains scholarly consensus that jihad is a communal obligation upon the ummah of Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), and if some of the Muslims undertake this duty the rest are absolved of responsibility.

2 – Jihad in self-defence.

If the kuffaar attack and occupy a Muslim country, or they prepare to attack the Muslims, then it is obligatory for the Muslims to fight them so as to ward off their evil and foil their plots. Jihad in self-defence is fard ‘ayn (an individual obligation) upon the Muslims, according to scholarly consensus.

Al-Qurtubi (may Allaah have mercy on him) said in his Tafseer (8/15):

When jihad becomes inevitable because the enemy has overrun one of the (Muslim) regions, then it becomes obligatory for all the people of that region to mobilize and to go out to fight, whether they are light (being healthy, young and wealthy) or heavy (being ill, old and poor), each according to his abilities, with or without the permission of his parents. No one who is able to go out, warrior or helper, should stay behind. If the people of that country are unable to fight their enemy, then those in nearby and neighbouring countries have to go out to fight, in whatever numbers are required to show support, so that they will know that they have the strength to stand up to them and ward them off. Similarly everyone who knows of their weakness in the face of their enemies and knows that he can go and help them must also go out and fight. All of the Muslims should be united against their enemies. If the people of the area where the enemy has invaded and occupied fight off the enemy themselves, then the others are relieved of that duty. If the enemy approaches the Muslim lands but does not enter, the Muslims must still go out to confront them so that the religion of Allaah will prevail and in order to protect the Muslim homeland and humiliate the enemy. There is no scholarly dispute on this point.

Shaykh al-Islam (28/358-359) said:

If the enemy wants to attack the Muslims then resisting becomes obligatory on all those who are under threat, and those who are not under threat are obliged to help them, as Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“but if they seek your help in religion, it is your duty to help them except against a people with whom you have a treaty of mutual alliance”

[al-Anfaal 8:72]

And the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) also commanded us to help other Muslims. This is obligatory upon each person as much as possible, by fighting himself or by giving financial support, as was the case at the time of al-Khandaq, when Allaah did not grant any concession to anyone not to fight. Rather the Qur’aan condemns those who asked the Prophet for permission [not to fight] on the grounds that their houses were vulnerable when that was not the case, rather they just wanted to flee the battle. This fighting is in order to protect the relihion, and protect lives and honour, and this is absolutely essential.

This is the ruling on physical jihad in Islam, whether that is taking the initiative to call the kuffaar to enter this religion and subjugate them to the rule of Islam, or jihad to defend the religion and honour of the Muslims.

We ask Allaah to bring the Muslims back to their religion.
And Allaah knows best.

http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&QR=34830

[wudjab]

Here's one more for you.

Q. Some enemies of the religion claim that Islam was spread by the sword. What is your response to that?

A. Praise be to Allaah.

Islam was spread by proof and evidence, in the case of those who listened to the message and responded to it. And it was spread by strength and the sword in the case of those who stubbornly resisted, until they had no choice and had to submit to the new reality.

And Allaah is the source of strength. May Allaah bless our Prophet Muhammad and his family and companions, and grant them peace.

http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&QR=5441&dgn=4

[EarThQuaKe]

Here's one more for you.


http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&QR=5441&dgn=4

Your source is islam-qa.com

These people stated that I am kafir so I won't even waste my time to explain what they are saying. I guess this is fair enough for you.

My discussion with you is about the verses from the Quran that you posted. Now that is another issue.

Back to what is important. You said you don't know arabic, you have no knowledge of tafseer nor quran sciences so what you posted here is your own understanding of the translated verses from the quran. I am like you, but I have to refer to a source to get the true meaning.

Lets go through the verses one by one and see what had been said by the scholars that I trust the most. I am Ibadhi so I do not depend on sunnah nor shi'ah books most of the times. This time I will not refer to the sunnah books so nobody from them can flame me with 'You hate sunnah that is why you are saying this'. :)


{ قَاتِلُواْ ٱلَّذِينَ لاَ يُؤْمِنُونَ بِٱللَّهِ وَلاَ بِٱلْيَوْمِ ٱلآخِرِ وَلاَ يُحَرِّمُونَ مَا حَرَّمَ ٱللَّهُ وَرَسُولُهُ وَلاَ يَدِينُونَ دِينَ ٱلْحَقِّ مِنَ ٱلَّذِينَ أُوتُواْ ٱلْكِتَابَ حَتَّىٰ يُعْطُواْ ٱلْجِزْيَةَ عَن يَدٍ وَهُمْ صَاغِرُونَ } 9:29

Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.-Qur'an, 9:29

This verse is very complicated and I could not figure out how it was divided. I'll copy paste few parts that I could understand, but it does not mean that these explanations are the only ones available.


The underlined words prove that ِ هم أهل الكتاب كما بينه الله بعد، وهذا من الدلائل القوية على أنهم
....... مشركون
Translation: The people meant in here are the people of the book (Jews and Christians) and it proves that they are no people of the book, but rather non-believers.......

، قال مجاهد: وعند نزول الآية أخذ رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم فى غزوة الروم، ومشى نحو تبوك، ذكر الثعالبى، وقال الكلبى: نزلت فى قريظة والنضير، فصالحهم فكانت أول جزية أصابها المسلمون، وأول ذل أصاب أهل الكتاب بأيدى المسلمين.

Mujahid said: When this verse was passed the prophet when to fight the Romans. He went to Tabouk.

Al-Tha'lbi said: This verse was said for the jews in 'quraithah and Annatheir' and the prophet made a truce with them. This was the first 'jeziah' taken y the muslims........

.... لا يأخذ الجزية إلا الإمام العادل بنفسه أو بأمره، وإذا لم يكن الإمام أو كان، ولم يقدر على منع الظلم عنهم لم تؤخذ منهم، ومن أخذها بدون الإمام لم يعامل فيها، وقيل: يأخذها منهم كل من منع الظلم عنهم ولو فى الكتمان ...

The jeziah cannot be taken except by the Immam himself or by his orders. If there was no Immam or there was an immam, but he could not defend them (The people of the book) then he cannot take the jeziah from them. Some said that the jeziah can be taken by anyone that can defend them.

So does this mean that the jeziah is paid for protection from others?

__________________________________________________ _________________________

He it is Who hath sent His messenger with the guidance and the Religion of Truth, that He may cause it to prevail over all religion, however much the infidels may be averse.-Qur'an, 9:33

{ هُوَ ٱلَّذِيۤ أَرْسَلَ رَسُولَهُ بِٱلْهُدَىٰ وَدِينِ ٱلْحَقِّ لِيُظْهِرَهُ عَلَى ٱلدِّينِ كُلِّهِ وَلَوْ كَرِهَ ٱلْمُشْرِكُونَ }

وإِظهاره على الأَديان بخذلان أَهلها وبالنسخ، أَو للرسول فيقدر على أَهل الأَديان، أَو المعنى يطلعه على جميع دينه لا يخفى منه شئ عنه

Islam is above other religions because the people of the other religions left their religions astray and because Allah copied all the previous religions by islam or by the prophet who can convince any of the other religions' people. OR by the meaning; Allah will show the prophet all of the teachings of islam and will not hide anything from him.

Now there is something to consider in this verse. The letter هُ underlined
could refer to 'Islam' OR 'The Prophet'.

So the translation could be: He it is Who hath sent His messenger with the guidance and the Religion of Truth, that He will reveal the religion to the prophet , however much the infidels may be averse.
__________________________________________________ _________________


You can see that other two verses may have the same meaning as the previous one. I can pass you what others say about them if you want.

P.S.: This is not a whole explanation, but rather bits and pieces. There are other explanations that I did not mention, but I don't think you will really care about them so I decided to save you from reading them. :D

[wudjab]

The three official translations for 9:33 have it thus :



YUSUFALI: It is He Who hath sent His Messenger with guidance and the Religion of Truth, to proclaim it over all religion, even though the Pagans may detest (it).
PICKTHAL: He it is Who hath sent His messenger with the guidance and the Religion of Truth, that He may cause it to prevail over all religion, however much the idolaters may be averse.
SHAKIR: He it is Who sent His Messenger with guidance and the religion of truth, that He might cause it to prevail over all religions, though the polytheists may be averse.

It is pretty apparent to my limited intellect, that this is referring to Islam dominating other religions.

Nowhere does it mention that this is referring to revealing Islam to the Prophet.

Nowhere have I ever read your interpretation of the verse.

Nice try, though.

[wudjab]

It is also strange that the member who asked for this topic to be opened so that he could debate it himself is conspicuously absent from the entire discussion.

[EarThQuaKe]

The three official translations for 9:33 have it thus :


It is pretty apparent to my limited intellect, that this is referring to Islam dominating other religions.

Nowhere does it mention that this is referring to revealing Islam to the Prophet.

Nowhere have I ever read your interpretation of the verse.

Nice try, though.


These translations may have some truth in them. They are from the Sunnah Sect, which I do not belong to. I belong to the Ibadhi sect and the explanation of these verses are available in arabic. There is still no Ibadhi translation for the Quran. If you do not want to include Ibadhies as a sect of islam, then there are sunnah people who did just like you so I won't blame you.:)

There are many differences in Quran explanation between the Ibadhi and Sunnah schools. I have read few of both and personally, I do not 100% agree with the sunnah school in quran explanation nor translation.

Now you know for sure what the sunnah books say about the verses and you also know what I claim to be what the Ibadhies say. You believe in whatever you want to believe, but according to my knowledge, Islam in not imperialistic and my reasons are stated in my previous post.

[wudjab]

I appreciate your honesty and effort.

Let us just agree to disagree.

[jack]

Now you know for sure what the sunnah books say about the verses and you also know what I claim to be what the Ibadhies say. You believe in whatever you want to believe, but according to my knowledge, Islam in not imperialistic and my reasons are stated in my previous post.

You must have never heard of this group of muslims. (http://www.hizb-ut-tahrir.org/english/english.html)

[sheik-al-Tort]

have a look http://www.1924.org/media_monitor/index.php?id=1963_0_30_0_M


I was wondering when you'd show up. I took a look at your 24 minutes past 7 website. The vision bit is interesting and shows a complete lack of understanding or knowledge of history. It will also do much to reinforce anti-Islam feeling in the West, which is presumably your goal.

Put your ear to a sea shell...........can you hear it? It's the sea.

Well I''ve got news for you. it isn't really the sea at all. just like your islam isn't really Islam at all, but a corruption of it. Now go away and bravely torture a spider so you can feel important. :candy:

[EarThQuaKe]

You must have never heard of this group of muslims. (http://www.hizb-ut-tahrir.org/english/english.html)

I am not talking about Muslims... I am talking about Islam... Its not my problem that you don't understand what I typing. I only refer to Quran and sunnah, the rest I throw away with delight. :)

You can change the question and then my answer could be different and I know it will be different.

After everything I typed, you are passing me a link... Are you serious?!!