This beauty with the advanced civilization.
At least there are few people that never hesitate to accept the truth and never mortgage the conscious to ruler.
US Guantanamo guard kicked Koran
Repoted by BBC.
US guards at the Guantanamo Bay detention centre kicked, threw water and splashed urine on copies of Koran.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4608949.stm
U.S. Confirms Gitmo Soldier Kicked Quran.
By ROBERT BURNS, AP Military Writer

The pentagon Friday released new details about mishandling of the Quran at the Guantanamo Bay prison for terror suspects, confirming that a soldier deliberately kicked the Muslim holy book and that an interrogator stepped on a Quran and was later fired for "a pattern of unacceptable behavior."
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050604/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/guantanamo_bay_quran

:hmm:

Thanks for that Shamsery. Im curious: whos the first whos gonna defend these actions by saying 'arab world blah blah' as if a comparison is meaningful at all.

Many others before those who kicked Quran were punished by Allah.. even by earthquake or a disease..

and then they call us arabs 'biased'

The pentagon Friday released new details about mishandling of the Quran at the Guantanamo Bay prison for terror suspects, confirming that a soldier deliberately kicked the Muslim holy book and that an interrogator stepped on a Quran and was later fired for "a pattern of unacceptable behavior." Should he have been beheaded?

oh hell yeah

behedding would be an act of mercy to that animal

Should he have been beheaded?
Don’t you feel shame for such act?
What an irony!
I am surprise to look your comment!
You represent a civilization.
Is that the norms?

I initiated the thread to expose fact.
There is similar thread opened by Sir Ice Tea.
It can be merged , if you like.

Don’t you feel shame for such act?No why should I be ... I've never hid the fact that I see the quran as a "political doctrine" first and formost ... with religion being one theme. I see nothing sacred about it.
I am surprise to look your comment!
You represent a civilization.I represent myself ... I'm not ready to represent a whole civilization ... yet :rolleyes:
Is that the norms?What beheading ... no not here in the US. Obviously beheading is the norm in the ME and other Islamic countries. We see examples of beheading all the time by lovely muslims ... and as you can see CrazyRed loves the idea also.

What beheading ... no not here in the US. Obviously beheading is the norm in the ME and other Islamic countries. We see examples of beheading all the time by lovely muslims ... and as you can see CrazyRed loves the idea also.
Again you have manipulated.
Each of us represents a society, culture, faith, and civilization.
You “individual” is not out of your society and you carry the values of your society.
We can judge your society through you.

Again you have manipulated.
Each of us represents a society, culture, faith, and civilization.
You “individual” is not out of your society and you carry the values of your society.
We can judge your society through you.Oh ok I understand now. Then we can judge arab society and all of the ME through OBL and the boys ... correct :rolleyes:

Oh ok I understand now. Then we can judge arab society and all of the ME through OBL and the boys ... correct :rolleyes:

We are talking here on the following issue.
What is your opinion?

This beauty with the advanced civilization.
************************************
The pentagon Friday released new details about mishandling of the Quran at the Guantanamo Bay prison for terror suspects, confirming that a soldier deliberately kicked the Muslim holy book and that an interrogator stepped on a Quran and was later fired for "a pattern of unacceptable behavior."
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050604/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/guantanamo_bay_quran

We are talking here on the following issue.
What is your opinion?

I have already given my opinion ... like you said you have trouble understanding english :rolleyes:

No why should I be ... I've never hid the fact that I see the quran as a "political doctrine" first and formost ... with religion being one theme. I see nothing sacred about it.

Thank you, Your Government think like that but talk something diffrent.
We should take lesson from your post.

Thank you, Your Government think like that but talk something diffrent.
We should take lesson from your post.So we have come to the conclusion that Gods political system (islam) is the only political system that has the authority to lie during war time. Other political systems are not afforded that advantage?

What is the word for that in islam ... I forget?

I didn't lie to you shams ... I told you flat out what I thought ;)

You might find this interesting shams ... (http://divedesk.com/blog/?p=46)

I didn't lie to you shams ... I told you flat out what I thought ;)

You might find this interesting shams ... (http://divedesk.com/blog/?p=46)

I don’t agree with you but support your right to speak in a decent manner.
You might have notice; I gave you thanks for your straight opinion with an invisible compliment, that you not hypocrite like your American Government.

On Saturday, a day after the Pentagon described a series of cases of U.S. personnel mishandling the Quran, the White House downplayed the issue.

"It is unfortunate that some have chosen to take out of context a few isolated incidents by a few individuals," presidential spokesman Scott McClellan said in a statement.

Joe Lockhart, former press secretary for President Clinton, said that when a news organization — such as Newsweek — makes a factual mistake, White House officials are tempted to try to discredit the entire story.

"I think on this issue, they fell into a trap," Lockhart said. "They saw a way to push back on a damaging story by making it look like it was just out-of-control journalists, and now they've had to admit that it has happened."

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050605/ap_on_go_pr_wh/bush_quran

Nothing to comment.

Islam do not allow to lie.

Islam do not allow to lie.Ahhh ... so you are declaring that shites are not muslims now? :rolleyes: The muslim population just went wayyyyy down.

Ahhh ... so you are declaring that shites are not muslims now? :rolleyes: The muslim population just went wayyyyy down.

You are twisting the thread Mr.Jack.
The thread has nothing to do with Shites.

You are twisting the thread Mr.Jack.
The thread has nothing to do with Shites.The thread is about lieing ...

So we have come to the conclusion that Gods political system (islam) is the only political system that has the authority to lie during war time. Other political systems are not afforded that advantage?I asked you this ...^

your answer was this ...
Originally Posted by shamsery
Islam do not allow to lie.

The shites sect clearly states that lieing in war time is allowed. This is a fact that cannot be denied.

Now are you saying that shites are not muslim? ... and no twisting as you put it :rolleyes:

The thread is about lieing ...

I asked you this ...^

your answer was this ...


The shites sect clearly states that lieing in war time is allowed. This is a fact that cannot be denied.

Now are you saying that shites are not muslim? ... and no twisting as you put it :rolleyes:


Mr. Jack,
The thread is related to question, Whether American guards dishonor the Holy Quran in Guantanamo ?
Anyway, can you please provide any evidence from Quran or Hadith that Islam allow to lie during war?
Honestly, I have never heard like that.
For saving own life, one is allowed to lie, if that is unavoidable, though it is not appreciated, this much I know.

Hmm, interesting, I'd like proof that shi3as say lying is ok in the time of war.


Jack: do you believe lying is acceptable during times of war? Yes or no please.

Hmm, interesting, I'd like proof that shi3as say lying is ok in the time of war.


Jack: do you believe lying is acceptable during times of war? Yes or no please.Abosolutely ... not only acceptable but also necessary at times ... in times of war.

The difference is that when a muslim country does it muslims have no problem with that and when the US does it muslims scream foul and demand a free kick in the US @ss.

Abosolutely ... not only acceptable but also necessary at times ... in times of war.

The difference is that when a muslim country does it muslims have no problem with that and when the US does it muslims scream foul and demand a free kick in the US @ss.

Those who have minimum integrity , they take care to comment.

Since my post has been deleted, I'll repost it.

Oh my God! He kicked the Koran! Chop his head off!

Get over it.

First of all, big deal. Kicking the Quran / Bible / Torah is not a crime under US (or any Western countries law). The fact that the US Army takes the trouble to investigate such an incident, which technically is not illegal, is commendable, but predicitably, draws the opposite response from the fanatics here.

Now that Mr. Sham has placed so much trust in this US Army invesigation, lets discuss some other parts of the very same report :

---------------------------

A U.S. military investigation into the mishandling of the Muslim holy book at the Guantanamo Bay prison for suspected terrorists has determined that detainees -- not U.S. soldiers -- attempted to flush the Quran down the toilet there.

However, the report did find four confirmed incidents in which U.S. personnel at the base mishandled the Quran, including guards kicking a detainee's Quran; a guard's urine "splashed" a detainee and his holy book after coming through an air vent; and guards got in a water balloon fight that resulted in two detainees' Qurans getting wet.

In a fifth confirmed incident, it could not be determined whether a guard or a detainee wrote a two-word obscenity in a detainee's Quran.

The findings of the report, issued by Brig. Gen. Jay Hood, commander of the detention center in Cuba, were released late Friday. They found no evidence to support allegations that U.S. soldiers attempted to flush the Muslim holy book down the toilet.

.....

The Hood report cited three separate incidents in which detainees tried to flush the Quran down the toilet.

In one incident, on February 23, 2004, the report said a guard saw a "detainee place two Qurans in his toilet and state he no longer cared about the Quran or his religion.

Five minutes later, after the detainee retrieved the Qurans, he ripped several pages out of one Quran and threw the pages on the floor. Then, he placed both Qurans on the sink."

Another time, on January 19, 2005, a detainee "tore up his Quran and tried to flush it down the toilet. Four guards witnessed the incident," the report said.

The report also cited 12 other incidents by detainees, including one who used his Quran as a pillow, another who urinated on his holy book and several who ripped pages from the Quran.

Capt. Jeff Weir, an Army spokesman at the facility, told CNN in a phone interview that the detainees were typically trying to stage some form of protest when they mishandled the Quran.

Hood said investigators reviewed more than 30,000 documents in an exhaustive probe.

"The inquiry found no credible evidence that a member of the Joint Task Force at Guantanamo Bay ever flushed a Quran down a toilet. This matter is considered closed," the report said.

It said the U.S. military has issued more than 1,600 copies of the Quran since January 2002, conducted more than 28,000 interrogations and carried out thousands of "cell moves."

......

Weir, the Army spokesman at the facility, said about 540 suspected terrorists are housed at the maximum security prison. Noting that only five incidents of mishandling of the Quran could be confirmed, he said, "I will stand by the record here: It's outstanding."

He said even if a U.S. soldier was "contemplating misbehaving," it would be extremely difficult.

"Nothing goes unchecked in Guantanamo Bay," he said. "Everything is documented."

...

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/06/03/guantanamo.quran/index.html

Now what do you think we should do with the terrorists who actually tried to flush the Quran down the toilet ? Chop of their heads ? Stone them to death ? Cut of their willie ?

Now on to the topic of deception in Islam, or Taqiya. As usual, it is left to the kafir to educate Mr. Sham on the finer points of his faith,

Assallamu `Alaykum,

Today, I would like to present the concept of "al-Taqiyya" in the following exposition. This topic is as thorny as previous ones have been, and many people have experienced great difficulty in trying to understand it. I pray to Allah (SWT) that this discussion will help loosen some of the intellectual rust that has accumulated over the years in many peoples' minds. The interminable negative propaganda that people are
bombarded with on a daily basis serves to nurture feelings of animosity and disbelief towards the Shia; additionally, it may promote the explicit denial of proven facts and truths. Nonetheless, you owe it to yourself to search for the truth; and, indeed, Allah (SWT) has commanded that you do. As such, it is your prerogative to believe or reject everything that the Shia claim; but my plea is that the next time you hear a discussion about the Shia in your Mosque, or any place else, please remember my posts, and
question the person who is discussing the topic. Only then, will you see my point, In Sha' Allah (SWT).

I intend to demonstrate and prove that the concept of "al-Taqiyya" is an integral part of Islam, and that it is NOT a Shi'ite concoction. As usual, the two perspectives, the Sunnis and the Shia, will be presented to maintain a level of fairness and integrity in the reporting of this topic.

Introduction

The word "al-Taqiyya" literally means: "Concealing or disguising one's beliefs, convictions, ideas, feelings, opinions, and/or strategies at a time of eminent danger, whether now or later in time, to save oneself from physical and/or mental injury." A one-word translation would be "Dissimulation."

The above definition must be elaborated upon before any undertaking of this topic is to ensue. Although correct, the definition suffers from an apparent generalization, and lacks some fundamental details that should be construed:

First, the CONCEALMENT of one's beliefs does NOT necessitate an ABANDONMENT of these beliefs. The distinction between "concealment" and "abandonment" MUST be noted here.

Second, there are numerous exceptions to the above definition, and they MUST be judged according to the situation that one is placed in. As such, one should NOT make a narrow-minded generalization that encompasses all situations, thereby failing to fully absorb the spirit of the definition.

Third, the word "beliefs" and/or "convictions" does NOT necessarily mean "religious" beliefs and/or convictions.

With the above in mind, it becomes evident that a better, and more accurate
definition of "al-Taqiyya" is "diplomacy." The true spirit of "al- Taqiyya" is better embodied in the single word "diplomacy" because it encompasses a comprehensive spectrum of behaviors that serve to further the vested interests of all parties involved.

al-Taqiyya According to the Sunnis

Some Sunnis assert that al-Taqiyya is an act of pure hypocrisy that serves to conceal the truth and reveal that which is the exact opposite (of the truth). Furthermore, according to those Sunnis, al-Taqiyya constitutes a lack of faith and trust in Allah (SWT) because the person who conceals his beliefs to spare himself from eminent danger is fearful of humans, when, in fact, he should be fearful of Allah (SWT) only. As such, this person is a coward.

Sunni Sources in Support of al-Taqiyya

The following exposition will Insha Allah demonstrate the existence of al-Taqiyya in the Quran, Hadith, the Prophet's (PBUH&HF) custom, and the companions' custom. As usual, Sunni books will be used to further the argument. This is in keeping with the commitment to reveal the truth by showing that the Sunnis reject the Shia's arguments, while THEIR OWN books are replete (full) with the SAME ideologies that the Shia uphold! Although some Wahhabis staunchly argue their aforementioned statements, and aggressively defame the Shia and refute their doctrines, they have failed to explain the validity of their argument vis-a-vis the existence of these SAME doctrines in their own books, as has been demonstrated in ALL the past posts about the Shia. Those who think that they are the true protectors of the custom of the Prophet (PBUH&HF) and the only guardians of the Islamic Faith, how can they explain their own rejection of that which they are supposed to protect? Rejecting al-Taqiyya is rejecting the Quran, as will be shown shortly.

Let's Begin...

Reference 1:

Jalal al-Din al-Suyuti in his book, "al-Durr al-Manthoor Fi al-Tafsir al-
Ma'athoor," narrates Ibn Abbas', the MOST renowned and trusted narrator of tradition in the sight of the Sunnis, opinion regarding al-Taqiyya in the Quranic verse: "Let not the believers take for friends or helpers unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, (they) shall have no relation left with Allah except by way of precaution "tat-taqooh"), that ye may guard yourselves ("tooqatan") from them....[3:28]" that Ibn Abbas said:
"al-Taqiyya is with the tongue only; he who has been COERCED into saying that which angers Allah (SWT), and his heart is comfortable (i.e., his TRUE faith has NOT been shaken.), then (saying that which he has been coerced to say) will NOT harm him (at all); (because) al- Taqiyya is with the tongue only, (NOT the heart)."

NOTE: The two words "tat-taqooh" and "tooqatan," as mentioned in the Arabic Quran, are BOTH from the same root of "al-Taqiyya."

NOTE ALSO: The "heart" as referred to above and in later occurrences refers
to the center of faith in an individual's existence. It is mentioned many times in the Quran.


Reference 2:

Ibn Abbas also commented on the above verse, as narrated in Sunan al- Bayhaqi and Mustadrak al-Hakim, by saying:
"al-Taqiyya is the uttering of the tongue, while the heart is comfortable with faith."

NOTE: The meaning is that the tongue is permitted to utter anything in a time of need, as long as the heart is not affected; and one is still comfortable with faith.

Reference 3:

Abu Bakr al-Razi in his book, "Ahkam al-Quran," v2, p10, has explained the aforementioned verse "...except by way of precaution ("tat-taqooh"), that ye may guard yourselves ("tooqatan") from them....[3:28]" by affirming that al-Taqiyya should be used when one is afraid for life and/or limb. In addition, he has narrated that Qutadah said with regards to the above verse:

"It is permissible to speak words of unbelief when al-Taqiyya is mandatory."

Reference 4:
It has been narrated by Abd al-Razak, Ibn Sa'd, Ibn Jarir, Ibn Abi Hatim, Ibn Mardawayh, al-Bayhaqi in his book "al- Dala-il," and it was corrected by al-Hakim in his book "al- Mustadrak" that:
"The nonbelievers arrested `Ammar Ibn Yasir (RA) and (tortured him until) he (RA) uttered foul words about the Prophet (PBUH&HF), and praised their gods (idols); and when they released him (RA), he (RA) went straight to the Prophet (PBUH&HF). The Prophet (PBUH&HF) said: "Is there something on your mind?" `Ammar Ibn Yasir (RA) said: "Bad (news)! They would not release me until I defamed you (PBUH&HF) and
praised their gods!" The Prophet (PBUH&HF) said: "How do you find your heart to be?" `Ammar (RA) answered: "Comfortable with faith." So the Prophet (PBUH&HF) said: "Then if they come back for you, then do the same thing all over again." Allah (SWT) at that moment revealed the verse: "....except under compulsion, his heart remaining firm in faith...[16:106]"

NOTE: The full verse that was quoted partially as part of the tradition above, is: "Any one who, after accepting Faith in Allah, utters unbelief, EXCEPT UNDER COMPULSION, his heart remaining firm in faith -- but such as open their breast to unbelief, -- on them is Wrath from Allah, and theirs will be a dreadful Chastisement [16:106]." (Emphasis Mine)

.....

http://www.al-islam.org/encyclopedia/chapter6b/1.html

Now based on previous track record, how long before Mr. Sham will be howling for the moderators, claiming Islam has been defames ?

Since my post has been deleted, I'll repost it.

Oh my God! He kicked the Koran! Chop his head off!

Get over it.

No ,that is not the point here.

What, nothing to add to my comments above ?

Dodge.Dodge.Dodge.Dodge.Dodge.Dodge.Dodge.Dodge.Do dge.Dodge..

Thats wrong, of course. It is a holy book just like the Bible, Bagwath Gita, Torah and all others.

I find firing the guard the correct kind of punishment. Beheading or torturing someone for kicking the Quran would sound like the ideology of those support acts of terrorism and violence.

Many others before those who kicked Quran were punished by Allah.. even by earthquake or a disease.. :hmm:

http://neic.usgs.gov/neis/world/middle_east/

http://divedesk.com/sabla/me_quake.gif

Lets zoom in on Iran. It is the only country in the world that is ruled by an Ayatollah.

http://divedesk.com/sabla/iran_quake.gif

You may be on to something! ;)



We'll examine the disease theory later ... ;)

Don't you face calamity?

Originally Posted by PinkDragon
Many others before those who kicked Quran were punished by Allah.. even by earthquake or a disease..

Do you even bother to read other peoples posts ?

Earthquakes for kicking the Quran .... quess which countries are going to get the most earthquakes ?

Earthquakes for kicking the Quran .... quess which countries are going to get the most earthquakes ?

Did you understand , what he wanted to mean?

To that, Bush cried, ''Absurd." Cheney said, ''I was offended." Myers said, ''absolutely irresponsible."

You are suffering from delerium.

I was thinking about insulting a Bible but I couldn’t as my religion teaches how and why to respect other religion and tolerance to different religion.

Poor American soldiers! digging their own grave!!!

Let the Christian God bless them if they don’t think we have the same Creator.

Please tell your Saudi brothers in the cradle of Islam to stop desecrating the Bible.

Yo Sham, we missed your comments on these two postings :

http://209.151.72.86/forum/showpost.php?p=524438&postcount=27

http://209.151.72.86/forum/showpost.php?p=524440&postcount=28

specifically on the rest of the report which indicated that the actual people who flushed the Quran down the toilet were moslem prisoners and the concept of Taqiya.

Please enlighten us.

Sham,

Do you believe that every single person in the US is to blame for the couple of people that kicked the Koran?

Do you believe that the (one or two) people that kicked the Koran were Christians?

In what way are all copies of the Koran 'holy'?

As there is no original Koran, how do we know that the current versions are accurate?

As there is no original Koran, all the books we have today are merely copies. What's so special about a copy?

The investigation indicated nine instances of accusations against guards for mishandling the Quran. Of those nine instances, only five of them can be comfirmed and each confirmed case was handled properly by supervisors. Some of the guards that were accused were terminated.

However, the report also states that there were fifteen comfirmed instances of detainees mishandling their copies of the Quran. One prisoner ripped the pages out of his and indicated he was giving up on his religion. Some detainees urinated on the Quran, others flushed it down the toilet. Some of them used the Quran as a pillow.

It seems that the US military has more respect for the Quran than the detainees.


WASHINGTON -- The Pentagon on Friday released new details about mishandling of the Quran at the Guantanamo Bay prison for terror suspects, confirming that a soldier deliberately kicked the Muslim holy book and that an interrogator stepped on a Quran and was later fired for "a pattern of unacceptable behavior."

In other confirmed incidents, a guard's urine came through an air vent and splashed on a detainee and his Quran; water balloons thrown by prison guards caused an unspecified number of Qurans to get wet; and in a confirmed but ambiguous case, a two-word obscenity was written in English on the inside cover of a Quran.

The findings, released after normal business hours Friday evening, are among the results of an investigation last month by Brig. Gen. Jay Hood, the commander of the detention center in Cuba, that was triggered by a Newsweek magazine report _ later retracted _ that a U.S. soldier had flushed one Guantanamo Bay detainee's Quran down a toilet.

The story stirred worldwide controversy and the Bush administration blamed it for deadly demonstrations in Afghanistan.

Hood said in a written statement released Friday evening, along with the new details, that his investigation "revealed a consistent, documented policy of respectful handling of the Quran dating back almost 2 1/2 years."

A spokesman for Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld, Lawrence Di Rita, did not address the confirmed incidents of mishandling the Muslim holy book. Reached while traveling with Rumsfeld in Asia, Di Rita said that U.S. Southern Command policy calls for "serious, respectful and appropriate" handling of the Quran.

"The Hood inquiry would appear to affirm that policy," Di Rita said.

Hood said that of nine mishandling cases that were studied in detail by reviewing thousands of pages of written records, five were confirmed to have happened. He could not determine conclusively whether the four others took place.

In one of those four unconfirmed cases, a detainee in April 2003 complained to FBI and other interrogators that guards "constantly defile the Quran." The detainee alleged that in one instance a female military guard threw a Quran into a bag of wet towels to anger another detainee, and he also alleged that another guard said the Quran belonged in the toilet and that guards were ordered to do these things.

Hood said he found no other record of this detainee mentioning any Quran mishandling. The detainee has since been released.

In the most recent confirmed case, Hood said a detainee complained on March 25, 2005, of urine splashing on him and his Quran. An unidentified guard admitted at the time that "he was at fault," the Hood report said, although it did not say whether the act was deliberate. The guard's supervisor reprimanded him and assigned him to gate guard duty, where he had no contact with detainees for the remainder of his assignment at Guantanamo Bay.

As described in the Hood report, the guard had left his observation post and went outside to urinate. He urinated near an air vent and the wind blew his urine through the vent into the cell block. The incident was not further explained.

In another of the confirmed cases, a contract interrogator stepped on a detainee's Quran in July 2003 and then apologized. "The interrogator was later terminated for a pattern of unacceptable behavior, an inability to follow direct guidance and poor leadership," the Hood report said.

Hood also said his investigation found 15 cases of detainees mishandling their own Qurans. "These included using a Quran as a pillow, ripping pages out of the Quran, attempting to flush a Quran down the toilet and urinating on the Quran," Hood's report said. It offered no possible explanation for those alleged abuses.

In the most recent of those 15 cases, a detainee on Feb. 18, 2005, allegedly ripped up his Quran and handed it to a guard, stating that he had given up on being a Muslim. Several of the guards witnessed this, Hood reported.

Last week, Hood disclosed that he had confirmed five cases of mishandling of the Quran, but he refused to provide details. Allegations of Quran desecration at Guantanamo Bay have led to anti-American passions in many Muslim nations, although Pentagon officials have insisted that the problems were relatively minor and that U.S. commanders have gone to great lengths to enable detainees to practice their religion in captivity.

Hood said last week that he found no credible evidence that a Quran was ever flushed down a toilet. He said a prisoner who was reported to have complained to an FBI agent in 2002 that a military guard threw a Quran in the toilet has since told Hood's investigators that he never witnessed any form of Quran desecration.

Other prisoners who were returned to their home countries after serving time at Guantanamo Bay as terror suspects have alleged Quran desecration by U.S. guards, and some have said a Quran was placed in a toilet.

There are about 540 detainees at Guantanamo Bay. Some have been there more than three years without being charged with a crime. Most were captured on the battlefields of Afghanistan in 2001 and 2002 and were sent to Guantanamo Bay in hope of extracting useful intelligence about the al-Qaida terrorist network.

Both President Bush and Rumsfeld have denounced an Amnesty International report that called the U.S. detention center at Guantanamo Bay "the gulag of our time."

The president told reporters at a press conference on Tuesday that the report by the human-rights group was "absurd."

On Wednesday, Rumsfeld called the characterization "reprehensible" and said the U.S. military had taken care to ensure that detainees were free to practice their religion. However, he also acknowledged that some detainees had been mistreated, even "grievously" at times.

Please tell your Saudi brothers in the cradle of Islam to stop desecrating the Bible.

Any Muslim bound to do that.
That the instruction of Holy Quran.

Yo Sham, we missed your comments on these two postings :

http://209.151.72.86/forum/showpost.php?p=524438&postcount=27

http://209.151.72.86/forum/showpost.php?p=524440&postcount=28

specifically on the rest of the report which indicated that the actual people who flushed the Quran down the toilet were moslem prisoners and the concept of Taqiya.

Please enlighten us.


I will check the each link. Please give me a little time.
Other member and Moderator can take the trouble please.

That comment deserves a

ROTFLMAO

BUMP.

Take your time.

Sham,

still waiting........

PS Can you also show me where the Koran orders Muslims to desecrate the Bible?

hello ?

elvis seems to have left the building.

Sham,

still waiting........

PS Can you also show me where the Koran orders Muslims to desecrate the Bible?

No where, never,
Quran says: “Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion”109:6

hello ?

elvis seems to have left the building

Disappointing but entirely predictable.

Mr. Sham is excellent at posting provocative but not entirely true posts.

But conveniently vanishes when he has been proven wrong.

Come on now Mr. Sham, step up to the plate like a man.

I see

So why did you write "Any Muslim bound to do that. That the instruction of Holy Quran"

on the back of:

"Please tell your Saudi brothers in the cradle of Islam to stop desecrating the Bible"

PS am still waiting

Still waiting for Mr. Sham.

Where are you sir ?

In the meantime, please read and understand how the rest of the world (non moslem) sees this storm in a teacup.


Quran desecration crock a win for Jihad spin docs

Robert Mugabe, Zimbabwe's kleptocrat strongman, destroyed a mosque the other day. It was in Hatcliffe Extension, a shantytown on the edge of Harare razed by the "police." Mugabe is an equal-opportunity razer: He also bulldozed a Catholic-run AIDS center. The government destroyed the town in order to drive the locals out into the countryside to live on the land stolen from white farmers. Quite how that's meant to benefit any of the parties involved or the broader needs of Zimbabwe is beyond me, but then I'm no expert in Afro-Marxist economic theory.


The point is the world's Muslims seem entirely cool with Infidel Bob razing a mosque. Unlike the fallout over Newsweek's fraudulent story about the Quran being flushed down a toilet, no excitable young men went bananas in Pakistan; no western progressives berated Mugabe for his "cultural insensitivity." And sadly most of the big shot Muslim spokespersons were still too busy flaying the Bush administration to whip their subjects into a frenzy over Hatcliffe Extension's pile of Islamic rubble.

Last week, Ambassador Atta el-Manan Bakhit of the Organization of the Islamic Conference called on Washington to show "no leniency" to the "perpetrators" of "this despicable crime." "This disgraceful conduct of those soldiers reveal their blatant hatred and disdain for the religion of millions of Muslims all over the world," said His Excellency. The Egyptian foreign minister was also in a tizzy. "We denounce in the strongest possible terms what the Pentagon confirmed about the desecration of the Qu'ran," said Ahmed Aboul Gheit, calling for strong measures, heads to roll, etc.

And what was it the Pentagon "confirmed"? That since Gitmo became the global center of U.S. Quran Desecration operations, there have been five verifiable instances of official minor "disrespect" for the holy book, three of which may have been intentional, which averages out at one incident per year. The same report also turned up 15 documented instances of "disrespect" by Muslim detainees. "These included using a Quran as a pillow, ripping pages out of the Quran, attempting to flush a Quran down the toilet and urinating on the Quran."

When three times as many detainees "desecrate" the Koran as U.S. guards do, it seems clear that the whole Operation Desecration ballyhoo is yet another media crock and the Organization of the Islamic Conference and all the rest are complaining about nothing. Or is Quran desecration one of those things like Jews telling Jewish jokes or gangsta rappers recording numbers like "Strictly 4 My Niggaz"? Are only devout Muslims allowed to desecrate the Quran? No doubt that's why the Egyptian foreign minister and company had no comment on the recent suicide bombing at a mosque in Kandahar, which killed 20, wounded more than 50 and presumably desecrated every Quran in the building.

Yet, as is often the way, the Muslim world's whiny spokespersons have been effortlessly topped by the old hands of the anti-American left. Thus, according to Amnesty International, Gitmo is the "gulag of our time."

Well then, these are diminished times for gulags. According to the Encyclopaedia Britannica, some 15 million to 30 million prisoners died in the Soviet gulags. By comparison, Guantanamo at its peak held 750 prisoners; currently, there are 520; none have died in captivity, and, as I wrote 3-1/2 years ago, it has the distinction of being "a camp where the medical staff outnumber the prisoners." You'll get swifter, cleaner and more efficient treatment than most Canadians do under socialized health care. It's the only gulag in history where the detainees leave in better health and weighing more than when they arrive. This means they're in much better shape when they get back to their hectic schedule of killing infidels: Of the more than 200 who've been released, around 5 percent -- that's to say, 12 -- have since been recaptured on the battlefield.

Why would an organization in the human rights business want to trivialize the murder of millions in totalitarian death camps by comparing them with a non-death camp that flatters every aspect of the inmates' culture? If Gitmo's a gulag, what words are left for the systemic rape being practiced by the butchers of Darfur? Or is it because they've so exhausted the extremes of their vocabulary on Guantanamo that the world's progressives have so little to say about real horrors like Sudan?

No serious allegation of torture at the camp has been substantiated, and in the al-Qaida training manual found in Manchester, England, a couple of years back Rule 18 couldn't be more explicit: When held captive by the infidel, members must "complain to the court of mistreatment while in prison" and say that "torture was inflicted on them." A healthy skepticism would thus seem to be advisable. Instead, Thomas Friedman of the New York Times runs around shrieking like a hysterical ninny that Washington needs to shut down Guantanamo right now -- not because of anything that actually occurred there -- but because of negative "perceptions" of the camp in the overseas press.

And would caving in to those negative perceptions lead to any better press? Nobody got killed in Gitmo, so instead America's being flayed as the planet's No. 1 torturer for being insufficiently respectful to the holy book of its prisoners, even though the Americans themselves supplied their prisoners with the holy book, even though Americans who fall into the hands of the other side get their heads hacked off, even though the prisoners' co-religionists themselves blow up more mosques and Qurans than the Pentagon ever does, even though the preferred holy book of most Americans is banned in the home country of many of the prisoners, where respect for other faiths is summed up in the headline, "Seven Christians Released In Saudi Arabia On Condition They Renounce Private Religious Practice."

That was in the British Catholic newspaper, the Universe, last week, by the way. Sadly, no U.S. newspaper found room for the story due to pressures of space caused by all the "Al-Qaida Press Secretary Denounces Insufficient Respect For Koran By Rumsfeld" front page splashes. But sure, go ahead, close Gitmo and wait for the rave reviews from the media -- right after the complaints that it's culturally insensitive to rebuild the World Trade Center when it's the burial site of 10 revered Muslim martyrs.

Guantanamo will be remembered not as a byword for torture but for self-torture, a Western fetish the jihad's spin doctors understand all too well.

http://www.suntimes.com/output/steyn/cst-edt-steyn12.html

Patience is a virtue....

Procrastination is a sin...

Please tell your Saudi brothers in the cradle of Islam to stop desecrating the Bible.

mmm ... educate us please on the subject ...
ohh wait i rememberd ...
elvis seems to have left the building

Its funny how that whenever elvis seems to lie , he immediatly leaves the building

First of all, big deal. Kicking the Quran / Bible / Torah is not a crime under US

interesting ... not a crime
but their flag being burned is ..

i hope this is the kind of DEMOCRACY their are trying to apply on Iraq

And btw ...
please remind us how your whole " taqqiyah " speach is relevant here ... ?

I see

So why did you write "Any Muslim bound to do that. That the instruction of Holy Quran"

on the back of:

"Please tell your Saudi brothers in the cradle of Islam to stop desecrating the Bible"

PS am still waiting


This make me surprise on your darkness.
My reply is there and I was out of net for 3 days.
Are you really blind or don’t read it?
"Any Muslim bound to do that. That the instruction of Holy Quran"
What is the instruction?
Quran says: “Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion”109:6

Quote:
Originally Posted by wudjab
Yo Sham, we missed your comments on these two postings :

http://209.151.72.86/forum/showpost...38&postcount=27

http://209.151.72.86/forum/showpost...40&postcount=28

specifically on the rest of the report which indicated that the actual people who flushed the Quran down the toilet were moslem prisoners and the concept of Taqiya.

Please enlighten us.


I will check the each link. Please give me a little time.
Other member and Moderator can take the trouble please.

Posted on 7/6/2005.

Please respond Mr. Sham.

I have not yet checked the link.

First of all, big deal. Kicking the Quran / Bible / Torah is not a crime under US (or any Western countries law). The fact that the US Army takes the trouble to investigate such an incident, which technically is not illegal, is commendable, but predicitably, draws the opposite response from the fanatics here.


If that is true why you are conducting inquiry ?
Is that eyewash?
Why you are breaking your own law?
Why there is court-martial ?

That is your answer ? You mean we have been waiting for your comments and that is the best you can do ?

The answer is there is an abundance of political correctness, specially where Islam is concerned.

There was no court martial. Stop inventing your own news stories.

heh ... Elvis's gone blind

Hello, stop ducking the issue and face up to it like a man.

Sham,

still waiting........

PS Can you also show me where the Koran orders Muslims to desecrate the Bible?


You're got something in your eyes, he clearly stated its against islamic teachings to desecrate the bible. Perhaps the gleam of ignorance?

Hello, stop ducking the issue and face up to it like a man.
ouch ... right in the heart ...

Keeping it warm for Mr. Sham who promised to respond....

Come on now mr. sham. surely you can respond to the issues your thread has opened ?

Why are you hiding ?

bump..bump..bump..bump..bump..bump..bump..bump..bu mp..bump..bump..bump..bump..bump..bump..bump..bump ..bump..

Still waiting for you, Mr. Sham (or shall we change your name to Mr. Dodger ?)

Hope springs eternal in the human breast.

Heres hoping Mr. Sham will summon enough courage to address the topic rather than running away like a coward.

(ps. we don't need any intelligence briefings from Iraq. We do need you to respond to the facts).

Welcome back Mr. Sham.

now that you have slunk back, please do take the time to provide the answer you promised so long ago.

ergo :

I will check the each link. Please give me a little time.
Other member and Moderator can take the trouble please.

Posted on 7/6/2005.

Shamsery, I see you lurking around. Would you like to give this a shot ?