View Full Version : Female Circumcision
Female circumcision, it's a practice that is still very common around the world, even though it's not done in hospitals, but rather, you have women which consider this as their job.
We do have it in Oman. It's been going on for a long time and still is, and many people think of it as a must and do it secretly.
Simple question,
Are you with or against?!
I had to confront my whole class today btw, I was the only one, or maybe there was one or two more who agreed with me vs. everyone else. My question to them was simple, give me one good reason to do this...
No one was able to answer my question, they all went in circles though.
well i saw this on bbc once...they were doing this to the women in africa. cant remember which place though.
The parents would agree that the daughter should have circumcision so that she can stay chaste and away from sins. And she doesnt get arousals etc.
Dr.N is that what circumcision is done for? And is it done on the G-spot?
ReVeLuTiOnAl^
05-02-05, 02:21 PM
Maybe the girls were shy not to answer.!!..
I can say nothing as i have no idea why it is undertaken..but if it should be same as with men!! Then it'd be a good thing for some reasons!
It's done to remove an area in the clitoris, or the G spot like you said abs, which contains many nerve endings and causes sexual arousing. Now people believe that if it's removed, then the girl is clean, and that she is pure. Some would remove just the skin around it, while others would chop the whole thing, now the latter can be associated with consequences, like over bleeding.
I am totally against the idea. I don't believe it's needed. It's not the same as male circumcision which has some medical basis. I find it cruel and it makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever.
even though it's not done in hospitalsActually it is. I know of at least one local, government hospital that does it. It's a good move cuz it's obviously safer. But I hope that doesn't encourage more families to have their daughters circumcised.
I'm against female circumcision when it's done by force or without the girl herself actually wanting to get circumcised. I say this because I've read quite a bit about how some women opt to get circumcised because of discomfort (I won't go into details cuz I don't know all the details and I don't wanna get too graphic). And it's not just an Arab or Asian thing. I came across this European girl at university whose sister got herself circumcised (by a doctor, of course) for whatever reasons she had (again, too graphic). So I'm against female circumcision only when it's done without the girl herself making the decision to have it done, specially because it's not a religious requirement.
It's not the same as male circumcision which has some medical basis
I never knew that. I know this isn't what you wanna discuss but can you please elaborate? What medical reasons are there for male circumcision?
Dive, I never knew that it was done in a local hospital. What I know is that it's not allowed, and a doc would go into a lot of trouble if he or she agrees on doing it. And yes, it's not in Asia or in Arab countries, it's spread all around, especially in Asia.
As for the difference between the two. Well with male circumcision, there is some medical evidence that it helps to prevent certain infections by preventing the accumulation of bacteria, like urinary tract infections, so it's mostly to do with hygiene.
The Sunnah way, is probably the most appropriate if you had to choose one. Others are just way too invasive and cause a lot of discomfort when done.
Do you believe that we should allow this to continue? Or should we try to stop it? I'm still trying to think of a reason other than decreasing the sexual desire for doing so. Because if you ask me, I don't believe that you can control these desires by this only, it depends on how you're raised, on your beliefs and the way you control your desires and needs, that's more important than circumcision in my opinion.
Dive, I never knew that it was done in a local hospital. What I know is that it's not allowed, and a doc would go into a lot of trouble if he or she agrees on doing it. Oh...so it's illegal here? I didn't know that. Anyway, this one person I know (not personally, but word gets round) who makes sure his daughters are circumcised is a high-profile personality in the country and the hospital they go to is also a good one. You know what it's like here. Some people think and are treated like they're above the law.
Do you believe that we should allow this to continue? Or should we try to stop it? I'm still trying to think of a reason other than decreasing the sexual desire for doing so. It's not really about sexual desire. Some women complain that they're constantly stimulated by their anatomy that it gets uncomfortable and annoying. And that's why they'd resort to circumcision. I'm sure you know the kinda thing I'm talking about.
H-Highness
08-02-05, 09:27 AM
I think its cruel for the reason that the girl/woman sexual feeling is totally ignored, in a sense that it would make no difference to the Sex Toy, she only got to please others!!
X-press
08-02-05, 11:10 AM
Are you with or against?!
I was the only one, or maybe there was one or two more who agreed with me vs. everyone else From your reply here, I first understood that you were 'for' female circumcision...
It's done to remove an area in the clitoris, or the G spot like you said abs,...DrN, with all my respect, how can you say that the G-Spot is the same area as the clitoris :think: ??? As you are in the medical field, I think you seriously need to check your anatomy books. I will not tell you its exact location, but it is somewhere inside the vigina, so for you to now found exactly where ;)
X-press
08-02-05, 11:28 AM
...some women opt to get circumcised because of discomfortIf a woman has nothing wrong with her anatomy, her being circumcised will not bring 'more comfort' to this particular area. However, if a woman has a very long clitoris (rare cases: expl 1 or 2 cm long), which is obviously not the normal size, this can be uncomfortable for her as it hangs a bit like a small penis for a man and will cause friction. Usually a plastic surgery is done to correct the size of that organ and give it is normal pea size shape.
Sorry for giving details above, but I believe that is the only way someone interested can understand such case :).
Kazablanka
08-02-05, 11:35 AM
I blame the jews for female circumcision.. lol
I heard like ppl used to do it a long time ago so like the girl doesnt get sexually excited and doesnt do the forbidden so she doesnt cause any 3ar to her family or something.
But hey, I didnt know they still did it! Maybe its just Oman that still has this chopping thingy going on. Kinda like the making holes in your ears HAHAHAHA I FIND THAT SO FUNNY!
*falls off chair due to extreme laughter*
Female circumcision is horrible.
Just to be clear: The "G-spot" is (theoretically - some doctors don't agree it actually exists) a sensitive point about half way up the upper wall of the vagina. It has nothing to do with female circumcision.
Female circumcision takes several forms, the simplest being the removal of the clitoris and the top part of the labia (outer "lips") of the vagina. The most severe, known as the "Phaoronic" circumcision involves complete removal of the clitoris and the inner and outer labia. In some cases, particularly in East Africa, it also involves sewing up the vagina except for a tiny hole to allow the girl to urinate. This sewn up area is then torn open by the husband after marriage.
The result of female circumcision is that the woman is incapable of normal sexual enjoyment with her husband. It causes great pain both during and after the procedure, and as it is often carried out by untrained people in unclean conditions, infection, severe bleeding and even death are common. I believe it is now illegal in Oman, but still happens in practice. Some doctors carry out the procedure in hospital, especially in the South, to avoid people trying to do it themselves.
I am not aware of any basis in the Sunna for this procedure. Sheikh Ahmed Tantawi (Sheikh of Al Azhar) issued a fatwa on this (it is quite common in Egypt) a few years ago saying that there was no Islamic justification for it and it should only ever be done on the advice of medical professionals and in a hospital (i.e. if there was some deformity as X-Press mentioned).
I am totally against it. It is purely based on barbaric pre-Islamic tribal customs and I think it is cruel and un-necessary. And anyway, what kind of man would want a wife who could not enjoy him? Or would allow his daughter to be mutilated in this way?
sophis^catrina
08-02-05, 02:23 PM
Totally barbaric.
Why would anyone be so cruel to themslelves/their daughters/their wives in actually removing the clitoris, so that it is extremely painful to her when having sex and she has no pleasure?
When people give the silliest excuses such as 'purity', I cringe. Will people keep using these 'fine and great' terms to cover this shameful and barbaric behaviour of cruelty and exploitation of a woman's body to deprive it of feeling pleasure and instead making it hell for her when having sex?
Disgusting. And such people are ignorant.
Arabian Prince
08-02-05, 03:05 PM
I did not have sufficient info on the topic, but having read all the members posts I would have to say that I am totally against it. The advantages of female circumcison dont stand a chance against the disadvantages. Barbaric is the least of it all. It would be wrong to argue this point in a religious point of view since Islam has not asked for it to be carried out.
The only obvious reason where it should be allowed is in cases of deformations, abnormalities or lack of comfort.
Arabian Prince
08-02-05, 03:09 PM
The most severe, known as the "Phaoronic" circumcision involves complete removal of the clitoris and the inner and outer labia. In some cases, particularly in East Africa, it also involves sewing up the vagina except for a tiny hole to allow the girl to urinate. This sewn up area is then torn open by the husband after marriage.
Woahhhh!! That is totally out of the question! :Shock:
Come to think of it, us men are darn lucky there aint such thing as "Phaoronic male circumcision". Ouch! I'd even hate to think of such thing!
Kazablanka
08-02-05, 06:39 PM
yep its the barbarian type culture that leads to these types of things...from what I know Islam forbids it.. but I have learned in my 20 (21 next month =D) years of being on this earth is that culture is 1000 times more powerful then religion.. so yeah.
Pineapple Thief
08-02-05, 07:46 PM
Wisest words you've said in a while kaza...about the power of culture. Its a dusgusting act really, and a total turn off. More than that, its wrong, wrong, wrong. I remember I was taking a tour in Turkey, and somehow this topic came up, and tour guide went to great pain to stress than this had nothing to do with islamic teachings, and was something borne out of culture. Unfortunately, his english was so terrible, I dont think anyone else really understood him.
Below is a question asked to our mufti (Al-Khalili) about female circumcision if it's sunnah or not. And to summrize (by my own words) the answer the mufti said "females circumcision not as males cirumcision in it's assurance/confirmation, but as said it's a gift for the husband because the circumcised woman allows her husand to enjoys her more. However, this should be done within limits without abuse as the prophet instructed the women who used to be looking after this job not to harm/abuse but just remove the skin of the البظر only (don't know what is called in english) without addition.
هل ختان الأنثى سنة أم لا ؟
الجواب :
ختان النساء ليس هو كختان الرجال في تأكيده ، ولكن مما ينبغي ، وذلك كما قيل مكرمة للأزواج ، فالمرأة بختانها يُكرّم زوجها ليتمكن من الاستمتاع أكثر ، ولكن مع هذا كله ينبغي أن يكون هذا الختان في حدود المعقول بحيث لا يكون إنهاكاً كما أمر النبي صلى الله عليه وسلّم المرأة التي كانت معنية بهذا الأمر أمرها أن لا تُنهِك وإنما تقتصر على إزالة جلدة البظر فقط من غير الزيادة على ذلك .
CrazyReD
08-02-05, 09:08 PM
the skin of the البظر only (don't know what is called in english) without addition.
البظر in english is the clitoris
Thanx CR :).
So I hope some members who state Islamic views without knowledge to stay quiet! and not just throw words.
Ms^Know^It^All
08-02-05, 09:19 PM
Below is a question asked to our mufti (Al-Khalili) about female circumcision if it's sunnah or not. And to summrize (by my own words) the answer the mufti said "females circumcision not as males cirumcision in it's assurance/confirmation, but as said it's a gift for the husband because the circumcised woman allows her husand to enjoys her more. However, this should be done within limits without abuse as the prophet instructed the women who used to be looking after this job not to harm/abuse but just remove the skin of the البظر only (don't know what is called in english) without addition.
هل ختان الأنثى سنة أم لا ؟
الجواب :
ختان النساء ليس هو كختان الرجال في تأكيده ، ولكن مما ينبغي ، وذلك كما قيل مكرمة للأزواج ، فالمرأة بختانها يُكرّم زوجها ليتمكن من الاستمتاع أكثر ، ولكن مع هذا كله ينبغي أن يكون هذا الختان في حدود المعقول بحيث لا يكون إنهاكاً كما أمر النبي صلى الله عليه وسلّم المرأة التي كانت معنية بهذا الأمر أمرها أن لا تُنهِك وإنما تقتصر على إزالة جلدة البظر فقط من غير الزيادة على ذلك .
:think: Hmm so it will be good for her to be circumcised so that HE can get to enjoy intercourse while she doesnt :lift:
It's a Man's world, after all.......
:think: Hmm so it will be good for her to be circumcised so that HE can get to enjoy intercourse while she doesnt :lift:
It's a Man's world, after all.......
Who said she will not enjoy?
Below is a question asked to our mufti (Al-Khalili) about female circumcision if it's sunnah or not. And to summrize (by my own words) the answer the mufti said "females circumcision not as males cirumcision in it's assurance/confirmation, but as said it's a gift for the husband because the circumcised woman allows her husand to enjoys her more. However, this should be done within limits without abuse as the prophet instructed the women who used to be looking after this job not to harm/abuse but just remove the skin of the البظر only (don't know what is called in english) without addition.
هل ختان الأنثى سنة أم لا ؟
الجواب :
ختان النساء ليس هو كختان الرجال في تأكيده ، ولكن مما ينبغي ، وذلك كما قيل مكرمة للأزواج ، فالمرأة بختانها يُكرّم زوجها ليتمكن من الاستمتاع أكثر ، ولكن مع هذا كله ينبغي أن يكون هذا الختان في حدود المعقول بحيث لا يكون إنهاكاً كما أمر النبي صلى الله عليه وسلّم المرأة التي كانت معنية بهذا الأمر أمرها أن لا تُنهِك وإنما تقتصر على إزالة جلدة البظر فقط من غير الزيادة على ذلك .
that is so disgusting and very selfish.
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anyways.. I think its savage and I dont agree with it at all.
What is disgusting and slefish?
Ms^Know^It^All
08-02-05, 09:31 PM
Who said she will not enjoy?
Well Icetea... when a woman is circumcised ,,, the nerves in the clitoris are removed which means that she wont get a sexual arousal.
Unless u mean that she will enjoy it bcuz her husband is!!!!
it's a gift for the husband because the circumcised woman allows her husand to enjoys her more.
lol, what???
How is he supposed to 'enjoy' her when she's cringing or yelling out in pain? What level headed & caring husband would get joy out of his wife's pain?!
Sex can't be joyful for one person and not the other, its a shared experience. Rapists don't even rape for pleasure; they do it for other reasons.
And Icey, use your head. One if its painful for her I doubt she'd be so willing to have sex with him as much as he wants which will hurt HIM. Two, if most of its cut off; what is there to enjoy? :rolleyes:
Kazablanka
08-02-05, 09:34 PM
Wisest words you've said in a while kaza...
LOL
In a while?
You never fail to make me feel stupid :p
Well Icetea... when a woman is circumcised ,,, the nerves in the clitoris are removed which means that she wont get a sexual arousal.
Maybe that is when it's considered as abuse or harm to the female if it's not done the way it should be as stated in the 'fatwa', because Islam is not against women to enjoy their sexual life same as men do.
Unless u mean that she will enjoy it bcuz her husband is!!!!
It will be selfish to think that way :D
What is disgusting and slefish?
basically it only focuses on the man's pleasure and not the woman's. Part of the man's pleasure should be knowing that his wife is enjoying it just as much as he is. thats how i see it.
In relation to Islam there are some sayings of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) which are interpreted differently by Islamic scholars. In one of these sayings the Prophet (PBUH) says to Umm Atteya, "If you circumcise do not go deep (i.e. do not encroach on the clitoris) because it would be useful to the wife and desirable to the husband ".
The majority of Islamic scholars doubt the authenticity of these hadiths. This view was supported by the recent declaration of the present Sheikh (head) of Al-Azhar, Sheikh Tantawi, basing his declaration on many references, old and new, and among them some eminent Islamic scholars such as Sheikh Shaltout, a previous head of Al-Azhar.
Another previous Sheikh of Al-Azhar, Sheikh Gad El-Haqq, was in favor of the authenticity of these hadiths and thus, favored circumcision, but on the condition that "it should not cut the clitoris or any part of it." "Only a part of the skin of the hood should be removed." "The operator should pay compensation if he removes or injures the clitoris".
http://www.islam-online.net/iol-english/dowalia/techng-2000-August-22/techng9.asp
Our mufti didn't doubt the Hadith ottherwise he wouldn't mention it in the fatwa:
And I believe if it's done in this way then no harm and the woman will still have the pleasure:
Another previous Sheikh of Al-Azhar, Sheikh Gad El-Haqq, was in favor of the authenticity of these hadiths and thus, favored circumcision, but on the condition that "it should not cut the clitoris or any part of it." "Only a part of the skin of the hood should be removed." "The operator should pay compensation if he removes or injures the clitoris".
Icey, I think you and whoever else need to watch yourself before you go quoting the prophet on hadiths that are even doubted to come from him. Its a crime to spread lies about your prophet PBUH.
I would just like to say that the act is completely barbaric. If and only IF Mohammed did allow it in some form or another than he probably did so in order to keep some of the traditional parts of the people's culture so as not to shock them. Mohammed's da3wa didn't last that long and he only succeeded in prohibiting many things much later (take wine for example). Like we always say, it was a huge change for the people of that time and changing every single one of their bad habits was an impossible thing to do in only 11 years.
Islam has always held women in high regard. Men have been appointed to be their protectors from any harm and its sad that most men nowdays are either encouraging such an act or keeping quiet about it. What is being a muslim man about if its not to take care of the women in your family?
Islam freed women from so many degrading norms, gave them rights and declared them sisters and equals to men. Do you really think that it would allow an act that ruins a married couples sex life, makes a daily habit (urinating) extremely painful, ruins her own right to enjoyment of intercourse .... all this. And if you want to say that the man should 'enjoy' his wife and blah blah then I would ask you how would he enjoy her if she is refusing him because of the pain?
People ponder why women are not allowed to pray during menstruation and you'd be surprised to know that a lot of scholars have informed us this was to give the woman a break! Everything about Islam is about making the human's life easier and more bearable. Why would God give women a break from something so important, one of the rukins of Islam and then allow her to be messed up physically?
And last but not least, alnisaa qawareer. :)
Just to clear things up, forget the G spot, I was extremly tired when I posted that, so things got mixed up in my head:S Sorry you guys.
CrazyReD
08-02-05, 11:06 PM
excuses Nnniie :p
just a questoin the fatwa said the skin not the clitoris it self does that make a difference or it -vly effect the female (not that i'm with this idea but just asking)
X-press
08-02-05, 11:11 PM
...when a woman is circumcised ,,, the nerves in the clitoris are removed which means that she wont get a sexual arousal.Ms^Know^It^All, though the clitoris is a great source of pleasure, even if it is partially or fully removed through circumcision, a woman can still be sexual aroused and this through her vagina. However, as for many women it is difficult to reach an orgasm only via the stimulation of that last organ, they might be aroused but at the end not fully satisfied.
X-press
08-02-05, 11:12 PM
How is he supposed to 'enjoy' her when she's cringing or yelling out in pain? What level headed & caring husband would get joy out of his wife's pain?! Enigma, a woman will feel pain if she is circumcised with no proper anesthesia and this only during the procedure and the days following it if it is a full circumcision.
However, once the organ has healed, there is no reason for her to continue to feel pain when she is intimate with her husband. If it is only the skin that has been removed, she will not only not feel any pain but she will be able to have a normal sexual relationship with all the enjoyment that it brings. If it is the entire clitoris that has been removed, she will not necessarily feel any pain once healed, but for sure she will not be able to feel anything in that area.
Kazablanka
08-02-05, 11:15 PM
X-Press, you should be like a Dr or something.. u're too smart.. too smart I tell ya
Enigma, a woman will feel pain if she is circumcised with no proper anesthesia and this only during the procedure and the days following it if it is a full circumcision.
However, once the organ has healed, there is no reason for her to continue to feel pain when she is intimate with her husband. If it is only the skin that has been removed, she will not only not feel any pain but she will be able to have a normal sexual relationship with all the enjoyment that it brings. If it is the entire clitoris that has been removed, she will not necessarily feel any pain once healed, but for sure she will not be able to feel anything in that area.
Xpress, not all circumcised procedures are the same. Some are much more than just cutting off some extra skin.
Here is what I mean:
1st degree circumcisionis the removal of the prepuce of the clitoris.
2nd degree circumcision consists of removal of the prepuce and glands of the clitoris and often the removal of the whole of it.
3rd degree circumcision includes excision and paring of the adjacent parts of the labia minora above the plane of the labia majora, or the removal of the whole of it
4th degree circumcisionor Pharaonic circumcision- consists of removal of all the external genitalia, the whole of the clitoris and the entire labia minora
Now I daresay it would be wrong to classify all of them under one rule. I once read a story in Readers Digest about a woman who was into her late forties and had been in pain everysingle time she urinated and had sex with her husband!
X-press
09-02-05, 12:05 AM
Enigma, if you read my post carefully again, you will see that I am not talking about one case only, but two. I understand that the word circumcision for a woman means removing the prepuce or the entire gland of the clitoris.
If any other procedures are done beyond that point or area (expl removing the entire labia or even stiching the vigina) this doesn't fall under the word circumcision. It is a procedure done for cultural reason.
The same case for a man. Circumcision means removing the forskin at the head of his penis. If by mistake or by purpose the entire head is chopped too or the entire penis, it is no longer a circumcision but a 'gross error' or a 'barbaric Mutilation'!.
Icey, I think you and whoever else need to watch yourself before you go quoting the prophet on hadiths that are even doubted to come from him. Its a crime to spread lies about your prophet PBUH.
First of all I didn't post the Hadith, I posted our mufti fatwa about the issue, if you disagree with him then you can visit him and discuss it :).
I would just like to say that the act is completely barbaric. If and only IF Mohammed did allow it in some form or another than he probably did so in order to keep some of the traditional parts of the people's culture so as not to shock them. Mohammed's da3wa didn't last that long and he only succeeded in prohibiting many things much later (take wine for example). Like we always say, it was a huge change for the people of that time and changing every single one of their bad habits was an impossible thing to do in only 11 years.
Thereis no Hadith saying that female Circumcision is prohibited. So I guess it's ok to be done as per our mufti fatwa in one condition is not to haram the woman in anyway.
Islam has always held women in high regard. Men have been appointed to be their protectors from any harm and its sad that most men nowdays are either encouraging such an act or keeping quiet about it. What is being a muslim man about if its not to take care of the women in your family?
Do you think any parents will harm their daughters, you can say same thing about males circumcision then.
Islam freed women from so many degrading norms, gave them rights and declared them sisters and equals to men. Do you really think that it would allow an act that ruins a married couples sex life, makes a daily habit (urinating) extremely painful, ruins her own right to enjoyment of intercourse .... all this. And if you want to say that the man should 'enjoy' his wife and blah blah then I would ask you how would he enjoy her if she is refusing him because of the pain?
Why you are so sure it will ruins the married couple if it's done properly, I agree with you if it's done in the wrong way. Are you saying that women who are circumcised don't enjoy their sexual life? Any evidences?
People ponder why women are not allowed to pray during menstruation and you'd be surprised to know that a lot of scholars have informed us this was to give the woman a break! Everything about Islam is about making the human's life easier and more bearable. Why would God give women a break from something so important, one of the rukins of Islam and then allow her to be messed up physically?
Is it a break of something to do with purity?, if it's for break then Allah wouldn't allow pregnant women to pray also as they always feel tired.
And last but not least, alnisaa qawareer. :)
That is why we take care of these qawareer ;)
The increased enjoyment for the husband of a "circumcised" woman is how many barbarians defend this practice. The idea being that as the woman cannot be stimulated in the normal way, the vagina remains tight and dry - this is painful for the woman, but some men like the increased friction (sorry for being graphic).
Personally I'd rather my wife was turned on by making love with me rather than in pain, and I think the idea is pretty sick.
P.S. Icey: You are very selective in your translation of Sheikh Ahmed's reply. On reading it again, Sheikh Ahmed says that the Prophet (pbuh) ordered that: "it should not be more than removal of the skin of the clitoris". He does not say either that removal of the clitoris is permissable, or that removal of anything is REQUIRED. This sounds far more like what Niggy said: The Prophet (pbuh) placed restrictions on an existing cultural practice, he did not say that that practice was Islamically necessary.
X-press
09-02-05, 12:14 PM
Thereis no Hadith saying that female Circumcision is prohibited. So I guess it's ok to be done as per our mufti fatwa in one condition is not to haram the woman in anyway.Icy, when it comes to wormen, I understood that the normal procedure of a circumcision, which is the removal of the foreskin (prepuce) covering the tip of the clitoris, is not at all haram as per the religion. As you said, such procedure will not at all affect in a negative way her sexuality, as it is exactly the same thing which is done when a man is circumcised, but at a smaller scale.
However, I understood that it is haram in islam (and I suppose in most religions) to remove the entire clitoris of a woman, as it will automatically deprive her from some sexual pleasures mainly triggered in that area.
XP, the islam has nothing against the circumcision where the prepuce is removed only, it didnt' say it's Haram but at the same time there is no Hadith that says that you can't do it. But it's not the same as that of a man, the idea of removing the skin is the same, and the two do come from the same embryonic origin, but they are not done for the same reason. In men, it has absolutely no affect on their sexual desires, it's just a matter of hygiene, in women though, the whole purpose of the female circumcision, according to the many cultures, that it's a 'gift' to women, and basically what it does is that it decreases the sexual desires, using this as a way to protecting her.
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I am totally against it. I don't see how this can be a 'gift' to a woman. It's barbaric, but when I said that in class, I was told I had no right to call something that a lot of cultures believed in as barabric.
The problem is, it just doesn't stop. A woman is circumcised, she grows up thinking this is for her 'own' good, and when she gets married, she makes sure she does the same with her daughters, you see, it just goes on and on with the cycle.
Now we were asked whether we as docs, if put in a situation where a lady comes to us with her little girl and asks us to cirmcumcise her, even though it's against hospital policy, or else she'll go to a traditional healer, who uses the same equipment for everyone, and so the risk of infection is higher. You can't imagine how many of em said yes. I was just sitting there shaking my head, I think I provoked a lot of em', but anyway, I think that's one good oppertunity for someone to interfere and try to change this idea.
Ice t, as for the Hadith's, what I know is that a lot of these hadiths are very weak, so you can't really depend on them to come up with a fatwa, because you need the good evidence to do so.
sophis^catrina
09-02-05, 05:16 PM
Ice t, as for the Hadith's, what I know is that a lot of these hadiths are very weak, so you can't really depend on them to come up with a fatwa, because you need the good evidence to do so.
Same here. Interesting thread.
Some hadiths are weak and those hadiths are not agreed by all sects... there is a lot of doubt...
All I can say is that is that Islam would never allow anyone to conflict harm on another or oneself... if female circumcision is harmful to a woman, then there is only one way of thinking of how religion might view it.... wa Allah A3lam...
If the hadiths are genuine, then as others have said that means there are restrictions and going beyond them would be haram... these restrictions could be because in some cultures; pain=more pleasure.... I remember my aunt was telling me once abt a Sudanese lady who even though married after some years would sew her vagina more tightly to increase the pain, for her own pleasure... I guess in different cultures, they view pleasure in different ways...
I have a couple of friends who admitted to having the circumcision done! They said it was painful. But they are proud they did it. Their parents’ brain washed them to tell them that they are purer (?), than the girls who didn't have it done.
I think it’s unnecessary and barbaric.
It is a blessing that women enjoy sexual intercourse, and that shouldn’t be taken away.
MaterialBoy
15-02-05, 12:17 PM
I never knew that. I know this isn't what you wanna discuss but can you please elaborate? What medical reasons are there for male circumcision?
ITs cleaned and you're less likely to contract STDs if you have less foreskin
sophis^catrina
26-02-05, 02:59 AM
Their parents’ brain washed them to tell them that they are purer (?), than the girls who didn't have it done.
I think it’s unnecessary and barbaric.
It is a blessing that women enjoy sexual intercourse, and that shouldn’t be taken away.
Exactly. Here is a happy 'woman' fact: The clitorus is pure for purpose. It is the only organ in the body designed purely for pleasue. The clitorus is simply a bundle of nerves: 8,000 nerve fibres to be precise. That's a higher concentration of nerve fibres that is found anywhere else in the male or female body, including the fingertips, lips, tongue, and it is TWICE the number in the penis.
("Women An Intimate Geography" Natalie Anglier).
And some people can actually be cruel enough to remove this from a woman's body and so she cannot enjoy what's rightfully hers?
I didn't know where to post this thread, so I've just put it here.
---------------
I've just known couples of days about Female Circumcision. Of course, I know very well about Male Circumcision, because I did it. And all the boys do it. But I've just known about the Female Circumcision and I discussed this with someone.. From what I've known, it brings less sexual desires to the woman...
Anyhow, I'm posting this thead here to know more about it from you...
What do you know about Female Circumcision ?!
If you are a girl, do you want and/or think that you need to circumcise ?!
If you are a guy, will you circumcise your daughters ?!
Many questions in my mind about Female Circumcision, and if it's legal or not ... Some say it's a taboo, and some say it's not...
Please share your thoughts...
The thread should have been posted in the social problem sabla, but don't worry, it would be moved by the moderators :)
----------------------------
I'm completely against it and it just disgusts me how circumcised girls think that they're cleaner just because they had it done on them. Anyways, I will just post the same reply I posted in the other circumcision thread
I have a couple of friends who admitted to having the circumcision performed on them. They said it was painful because they'd done when they were six by village women. But they are proud they did it. Their parents’ brain washed them to tell them that they are purer, than the girls who didn't have it done. I think it’s unnecessary and barbaric.
It is a blessing that women can enjoy sexual intercourse, and that shouldn't be taken away.
A good discussion and debate about this topic took place in the sabla here : Female Circumcision. (http://www.englishsabla.com/forum/showthread.php?t=28686&highlight=Female+Circumcision)
Superbia
10-05-06, 04:54 PM
am lost wt does circum..... mean ?
^^ It is called 5atn in Arabic. The circumcision of a man is to remove a layer of skin from their penis at birth and this is mandatory as Islam preached. However, for women, it means removing a part of your vaginal genitalia. It varies in procedures, sometimes it is just the clitoris that is removed and sometimes the whole outer part of the vagina is extracted.
That's me explaining it in simplistic terms. Go through the thread I posted and you will understand the procedures more :os
It is a blessing that women can enjoy sexual intercourse, and that shouldn't be taken away.
Lym, how do you know women who do it won't enjoy sexual intercourse?
Superbia
10-05-06, 05:01 PM
o ya thnx now i get it .. but doesnt that mean the gurl will no longer b a virgin ??
MsKnuckles
10-05-06, 05:01 PM
I didn't know that actually existed on a wider scale... that's sad and a nuisance.
cLueLess
10-05-06, 05:03 PM
Juve, circumcision is khetaan in Arabic. I know that female circumcision is still widely practiced in Sudan and parts of Egypt and Saudi Arabia. I don't know about Oman though. I certainly don't agree with it because the concept is wrong to begin with. First, it is irrelevant to purity. Second, stopping sexual pleasure has nothing to do with stopping sexual desire. Third, it is done unprofessionally, which may sometimes cause long-term injury, and is a barbaric act.
A good discussion and debate about this topic took place in the sabla here : Female Circumcision. (http://www.englishsabla.com/forum/showthread.php?t=28686&highlight=Female+Circumcision)
I didn't know that there was a thread about Female Circumcision opened in Sabla.. I will check it now though, thanks Lym!
So, is it a taboo ?! or is it a religous requirement ?!
I've also known or heard tht despite the less sexual desires the circumcised girl gets, she gets more pleasure in sexual intercourses... I'm not sure though... I really want to know more about this issue. I will check the thread you provided.
Superbia
10-05-06, 05:05 PM
then y do it at the first place ?
Libellula
10-05-06, 05:06 PM
Usually when it comes to female circumcision, part or all of the clitoris is removed. And since we all know that the clitoris is one of (if not the) most sensitive area in a woman's lower region which gives her pleasure, then we can surmise that a woman who has been circumcized is not going to enjoy sex as much as one who hasn't been circumcized.
I personally think that this is a barbaric act that should be illegal in ALL countries. It is widely practised in some parts of North Africa (eg Sudan)
There is no evidence in the Quraan saying that it is obligatory.
Lym, how do you know women who do it won't enjoy sexual intercourse?
Lets just say that we women talk and talk with ones who were circumcised ;)
Scientifically, the clitoris has a lot of the nerve endings for pleasure purposes, if that's removed, it is only logical, that the woman won't feel pleasure as much as she would if her clitoris were still intact.
Superbia
10-05-06, 05:17 PM
Wow Very Interesting Facts !!
o ya thnx now i get it .. but doesnt that mean the gurl will no longer b a virgin ??
No, she is still a virgin. You only lose your virginity when you've sex Juve.
Ok .. and what's with the three degrees or kinds of female circumcision?! ..
They say the third kind is legal, but the first one isn't .. in fact I know nothing about them.. But what's the difference ?!
Libellula
11-05-06, 01:16 AM
then y do it at the first place ?
Some very close minded people think that it makes the girl "purer" and it'll make her abstain from any sexual activities.
Oblivious
02-07-06, 05:39 PM
then y do it at the first place ?
I didn't get that either, why would they do so?
...hmm..I saw a programme once, and there was a man who forced his wife to do so, when they asked him why, he said that he want to enjoy his wife, and he doesn't want her to enjoy sex, so she can't cheat on him:os
MorphaKnight
02-07-06, 08:06 PM
female circumcision?! are you nuts?! I'm uber against it, aside from the fact that my woman would feel nothing when having sex... i mean in sex, a man feels much more satisfied when he is pleasing his wife and that is a challenge that makes a man pleased with his accomplishment.. and yes as dumb as it sounds like, im serious
Oblivious
02-07-06, 10:35 PM
It's not dumb..I agree with u, many guys feel depressed bcoz they cnt please their women in bed..
But, I jus wanna know..why do it in the 1st place? is it bcoz of the reason I talked about in my 1st reply?
ToomuchaT
02-07-06, 10:45 PM
.. i think when kt comes to such issues.. regardless if it's 7aram or not!! .. u have to get ur opinions from ppl ( in this case women who had circumcision and who hadnt got it) , when u get the answer from them then u can say ur opinion about something u have no idea about!!
.. i hope u ppl do understand what im talking abt there lol.
MorphaKnight
02-07-06, 10:55 PM
its because of simple minded women who think that way they're protecting their girls from pubescent boys.. another example would be breast ironing.. this is a traditional thing in cameroon where it involves pounding, massaging a young girls breasts with hot objects when she hits puberty. Many mothers believe this helps stop the advances of young boys.. Other things used is heated coconut shells, heated bananas and the most popular one is a wooden pestle (thing used to pound and grind vegetables like molokheya and garlic) this somehow flattens the breasts..
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/5107360.stm
Oblivious
02-07-06, 10:58 PM
omg...this is a crime, isn't it?..
MorphaKnight
02-07-06, 11:04 PM
yup...
anyways i want to ask what about circumcision.. forget the fact that its a male/female thing but whats more important is consent.. In islam you're supposed to have your own freedom of choice to do whatever it is that suits you... to force it upon another person is a heinous crime
Oblivious
02-07-06, 11:08 PM
yea, and what's killing me, is that the man I saw in the programme, is a strict muslim...which I believe, most of them think this way..overprotective.
Soulless
02-07-06, 11:21 PM
its good when all Humans become Genderless :)
actually i don't want sex to be banned, but i want people to lose interest in it.. :)
ToomuchaT
03-07-06, 11:07 PM
.. i think when kt comes to such issues.. regardless if it's 7aram or not!! .. u have to get ur opinions from ppl ( in this case women who had circumcision and who hadnt got it) , when u get the answer from them then u can say ur opinion about something u have no idea about!!
.. i hope u ppl do understand what im talking abt there lol.
.. one of the members disagreed with me above but unfortunately s/he prefered to use the "FAC or Fat Australian Chicken" technique .. since i dont like that technique.. i'll use the clear mode..
.. the member said: by following what i said, that would be based on someone else opinion..
.. i say yes that's true.. but that would be the true and undoubtful opinion instead of the opinion u base them on what books said!!
arabian bella
16-07-06, 02:18 AM
When you discuss circumcision for the woman it is always about how she is feeling in the vaginal area!!! Think outside that area.
Think of it this way for a moment;
When a woman gets aroused it does not only occur within the vaginal area. Women get aroused all over their body including the G-Spot that is internally inside her vagina. However....what about a womans nipples?? When the male touches them she gets aroused, do you cut them off? Oh thats right you can not do that, bcuz once she has a baby, how will she breastfeed?
When a woman is kissing her lover she gets aroused inside her body, it all starts from the mind, her heart starts beating, her body sets in crazy mode, uncontrollable feelings start raging in her system, love, passion, need, pleasure, you name it. When her lover tells her passionate words during the process she gets more aroused and its not just created from the clitoris, her mind and heart play the major role. Remember you can not function without a brain, your brain sends msgs to ur whole body & ur heart creates the feelings thats passing in her body. Y would a woman be created with a delicate heart and other sensitive areas that make her weak and fall down to her knees for when she sets in affection mode? All of that intensity & desire creates an outburst & her G-Spot starts craving for need & the clitoris makes her indignation complete for her & her lover. It is there for a reason. To enjoy the means of pleasure from head to toe.
As for being a woman, I am totally against circumcision, it destroys a woman completely. Woman and Man were created equal, it is Man that created the tradition to cut a woman's clitoris, it was probably used as a punishment for a woman that acted promiscuous in her lifestyle.
So please whenever you discuss this topic please make ppl aware of the outside of the vaginal area help and inform people to see the wider view of this subject.
CrazyReD
16-07-06, 02:34 AM
it is Man that created the tradition to cut a woman's clitoris, it was probably used as a punishment for a woman that acted promiscuous in her lifestyle.
are you ***-u-ming? or you got a source for that?
not that I encourage female Circumcision but just wondering
arabian bella
16-07-06, 12:51 PM
are you ***-u-ming? or you got a source for that?
not that I encourage female Circumcision but just wondering
I knew that somebody was going to make a comment on that....that comment was just a suggestion bcuz we continuously hear that a woman needs to be circumcised to keep her chaste.
This information has come from Wikipedia....
No form of genital modification and mutilation is mentioned in the Qur'an, but only in a disputed hadith
There is no evidence concerning whether this was practiced on Muhammad's daughters
Neurectomy, or severing of the pubic nerve to permanently numb the genitals and approximate the effect of a clitoridectomy was performed on institutionalized girls and women around the turn of the 20th Century in America and Australia, and electrical cauterization of the clitoris was reported to have been occasionally performed on mental patients in the USA to stop them from masturbating as recently as 1950.
it has been attributed by some authors to a deep-rooted fear of elder women that the more attractive younger women might seduce away their husbands and thus leave them without support
As u can see these are a couple of reasons why circumcision was performed. And as for religion matters this comment is also useful to read;
Some Muslim scholars believe FGC (Female Genital Cutting) is practiced as a result of ignorance and misconceived religious fervor rather than for reasons of true religious doctrine--and any religious basis for the practice is denied.
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