Signs of The Hour: Nature or God?

[X-press]

I was surprised to read, in the thread called "Was your faith affected by the Tsunami disaster?" (http://www.englishsabla.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27980), comments made by some muslim and non-muslim members who apparently believe that earthquakes are just phenomenons deriving from nature and unrelated to God.

Now, it was revealed in the Quran and hadeeth that worst than the Tsunami and past world disasters are yet to come and these revelations are considered 'major signs' that the final Hour is near when they will appear.


@~ Among these major signs, there is the "swallowing up of the earth". Meaning that a place is swallowed up in the earth and disappears into it.

"So We caused the earth to swallow him and his dwelling place…" [al-Qasas 28:81].Among the major signs of the Hour will be three such events, as described in the hadeeth of Hudhayfah ibn Usayd (pbuh), according to which Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) said:

"The Hour will not begin until you see ten signs… (including) three events where the earth swallows up, one in the East, one in the West, and one in the Arabian Peninsula." (Reported by Muslim, 18/27).@~ Among other major signs of the Hour will be the appearance of the smoke all over the earth, the rising of the sun from the West, a cold wind coming and killing all believers, leaving only unbelievers etc...

My question is:

As the events I mentioned above are also part of nature, if we are still alive when they will happen, should we look at these as simple natural phenomenons and not accept them as part of God's Plan?

[Guwantanamist]

Salam,

Excellent approach Exxy. I would like to point to one point that some are missing;
Yes Tsunami is something that happened with known scientific reasons, but then who made those scientific reasons occure ?
Did it happen by like ?
Did it not have a science behind it ?

I wonder why people think that when something is done due to Allahs will, then it should not have a scientific reason ?!
Allah who has the power to do things without scientific reasons can also do things with a scientific reasons !

[Wanderer]

Allah who has the power to do things without scientific reasons can also do things with a scientific reasons !

Yes, but why does he seem to exclusively use the ones with scientific explanations ?

We'd like to see one of the supernatural events for once.

[IceTea]

We'd like to see one of the supernatural events for once.

Do you know the story of prophet Ibraham PBUH with the fire?

[Wanderer]

Do you know the story of prophet Ibraham PBUH with the fire?

Yup.

Do you know the story of Hansel and Gretel ?

[IceTea]

Yup.



Do you consider it as supernatural event?

[Wanderer]

Do you consider it as supernatural event?

No, I consider it a made up story. A fable. Mythology - like that Hercules defeated the Hydra.

Do you consider the story of Hercules defeating the Hydra to be history ?

[IceTea]

No, I consider it a made up story. A fable. Mythology - like that Hercules defeated the Hydra.



Your opinion won't change the facts.

[Wanderer]

Your opinion won't change the facts.


IceTea, my opinion is based on the facts.

You should try it. That way you won't have to selectively filter out facts that conflict with your world view.

[mimosa]

I didn't see anyone swallow up the Earth. Maybe it was just a little nibble. Or maybe it's just silly unfounded superstition that gives Muslims a bad name. I'm sorry Exxy, I know you're sincere. But I really think this sort of thing just opens Islam up to ridicule.

[Guwantanamist]

Yes, but why does he seem to exclusively use the ones with scientific explanations ?

We'd like to see one of the supernatural events for once.

When you see the supernatural events it will be too late !

[EarThQuaKe]

When you see the supernatural events it will be too late !
Will there be any supernatural events, I doubt it. :)

[X-press]

I didn't see anyone swallow up the Earth.Mimo, we never said that someone was going to swallow the earth, but rather that "the earth will swallow up".

It can be a metaphor in the sense that the earth will somewhere expend upwards. During the Tsunami earthquake for exemple, there was a movement of the earth plates in Asia and this movement was done upwards, which causes the sea water to be lifted too. I don't see what is ridicule in this.

Lastly, Mimo, I didn't say that what recently happened was a confirmation of what was revealed in the Quran or in the hadeeth. As the hadeeth mentioned Asia, I personally do not exclude the Tsunami as a possible sign.

The swallowing up of the Earth will apparently happen in the future and this in three different places (East, West and Saudi Pennensula). When it will cover everything with water and cause probably a lots of death, should we simply see these disasters as something from nature only?

[EarThQuaKe]

Mimo, we never said that someone was going to swallow the earth, but rather that "the earth will swallow up". It can be a metaphor in the sense that the earth will somewhere expend upwards. During the Tsunami earthquake for exemple, there was a movement of the earth plates in Asia and this movement was done upwards, which causes the sea water to be lifted too. I don't see what is ridicule in this...

Who are these we exactly. Muslims in general or muslims in english sabla or you only. :think:

[IceTea]

I'm not really sure about this "swallow" thing XP is talking about!

[X-press]

Who are these we exactly. Muslims in general or muslims in english sabla or you only. :think:Earthquake, why you always have to be so picky in irrelevant details, instead of participating positively in a thread?

When I wrote "we", I didn't have in mind 'myself', but rather what was said by others. In this case Allah for the Quran and Muslim for the hadeeth. Probably I could have used 'They' instead, but I don't belive that the pronoun I wrote distorted the content of my text.

Icy, if you don't understand, I advise you to read again verse 28:81 and to read about the major signs which will happen in this earth before it completely shuts down.

[IceTea]

Icy, if you don't understand, I advise you to read again verse 28:81 and to read about the major signs which will happen in this earth before it completely shuts down.

Exy, that verse refers to the punishment from Allah to Qaroon.

[EarThQuaKe]

Earthquake, why you always have to be so picky in irrelevant details, instead of participating positively in a thread?

When I wrote "we", I didn't have in mind 'myself', but rather what was said by others. In this case Allah for the Quran and Muslim for the hadeeth. Probably I could have used 'They' instead, but I don't belive that the pronoun I wrote distorted the content of my text.

Icy, if you don't understand, I advise you to read again verse 28:81 and to read about the major signs which will happen in this earth before it completely shuts down.

Good, now if you read the quranic verse again you will know that it has nothing to do with the signs of the hour. This had already happened long time ago.

About the hadeeth do you mind giving us the sanad. I need the names of the narrators. I mean like A said to B said to C said to D... until the prophet said.

X-press how do you explain this verse from the quran: "Do they then only wait for the Hour,- that it should come on them of a sudden? But already have come some tokens thereof, and when it (actually) is on them, how can they benefit then by their admonition? " {Muhammed 18}

[X-press]

Exy, that verse refers to the punishment from Allah to Qaroon.Icy and Earthquake, it seems you read only part of my first post and didn't look at the overall topic and questions I raised. According to muslim scholars or analysts, some of the signs of the Last Hour already happened in the past and some are yet to come in the future.

~ When I quote Chapter 28, Verse 81, it was to show that, in comparaison to the recent Tsunami, a swallowing up of the earth already happened (as Qarun was arrogant towards his people and transgressed against them). I am not aware of any verse related to the swallowing up of the earth which could be linked to any recent world disaster.

~ When I quote the Hadeeth, it was to show that, in comparaison to the recent Tsunami, more similar events (swallowing up of the earth) will happen in the future and this apparently in 3 locations. There are considered as part of Major Signs of the Last Hour.

Besides some areas of the earth which will disappear (or already dissappeared), other major events which are linked to nature are also mentioned as events which will occur (or already happened)....exemples: the appearance of the smoke all over the earth, the rising of the sun from the West, a cold wind coming and killing all believers, leaving only unbelievers, years of earthquakes etc...

The aim of this thread is to find out if the members will look at these events as simple natural phenomenons and not accept them as part of God's Plan?

[X-press]

About the hadeeth do you mind giving us the sanad. I need the names of the narrators. I mean like A said to B said to C said to D... until the prophet said.Earthquake, I am not a religious scholar like you and only based myself from the Quran, from hadeeths or from islamic documentations I come across. To answer your question, I think I clearly wrote in my first post that it was Hudhayfah ibn Usayd who said this hadeeth and that it was support by Muslim (18/27).

Here are some links which might support my post:

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/pillars/signsofthelasthour.html

"Three places in the world will sink and be swallowed up by the earth. One in the west, one in the east, and one in the Saudi Arabian peninsula." [This may refer to a series of giant, epic earthquakes.]
or: http://www.islam-qa.com/QA/1|Basic_Tenets_of_Faith%28Aqeedah%29/Ashraat_al-Saa%27ah_%28Signs_of_the_Last_Hour%29/Signs_of_the_Hour.29081998.2281.shtml

Among the major signs of the Hour will be three such events, as described in the hadeeth of Hudhayfah ibn Usayd (may Allaah be pleased with him), according to which the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: "The Hour will not begin until you see ten signs… (including) three events where the earth swallows up, one in the East, one in the West, and one in the Arabian Peninsula." (Reported by Muslim, 18/27).

[Wanderer]

... other major events which are linked to nature are also mentioned as events which will occur (or already happened)....exemples: the appearance of the smoke all over the earth, the rising of the sun from the West, a cold wind coming and killing all believers, leaving only unbelievers, years of earthquakes etc...

The aim of this thread is to find out if the members will look at these events as simple natural phenomenons and not accept them as part of God's Plan?
.

I have to admit that I would NOT consider a cold wind that killed all Muslims and left all others untouched as a particularly natural event !

But there would be some confusion as the Christians and Jews would immediatly conclude that it was their God's plan to get rid of the evil Muslims and create paradise on Earth. They would probably then look at each other to see who would be next.

[Pineapple Thief]

Is it really safe to try to interpret events as they are part of the end at all? It seems dangerous to me, to try to fit the pieces of the puzzle.

1) It may be innacurate.
2) Theres nothing we can do to stop it, why worry about it?
3) Do we really need to worry ourselves about it? Does the end coming closer make us better muslims? It shouldnt. Judgement day shouldnt be a factor for bettering ourselves. I might die tomorrow, in which case the hour for me would be tomorrow. I cant wait for it to come before I make myself a better person.

Its 99% sure (if not more, obviously) that we wont see the hour in our lifetimes. Instead of worrying about it excessively and trying to fit events into it, we should concentrate on the here and now, make ourselves better people now, so that we have heaven :). Remember, idle talk is dangerous...

[X-press]

Not to further confuse the members, I would like us to focus on the main question of this thread which until now was not really answered.

Beside the years of earthquakes....

@~ Among other major signs of the Hour will be the appearance of the smoke all over the earth, the rising of the sun from the West, a cold wind coming and killing all believers, leaving only unbelievers etc...

My question is:

As the events I mentioned above are also part of nature, if we are still alive when they will happen, should we look at these as simple natural phenomenons and not accept them as part of God's Plan? Thanks Wanderer and PT for starting this debate :).

[Pineapple Thief]

Ill try to answer your question as best as I can XP, but forgive me if it sounds a bit confusing...

I dont know if they will be natural or supernatural. My personal belief, based on nothing really but how it just seems to be in my mind, is that most things will be natural until the very, very, end, which would probably be the sun rising in the west or something.

But then again, who's to say? Sun rising in the west, as one sabla member said i think, may actually sun rising ON the west, as in civilisation being centered there as opposed to the more historic 'east'. Cold wind, could be anything. Smoke, if one were to interpret it, could be pollution. Nothing miraculous in those.

But I think something has to happen which would be more than just natural, eventually. The end, as it is. Im not really sure.

What Im trying to say basically is that even though these events may be natural, everything, down to the moments of the smallest amoeba, are according to God's plan. God is a perfectionist, after all ;)

[EarThQuaKe]

Earthquake, I am not a religious scholar like you

How many times do I have to say this. I am not a religious scholar. I am a student. This is the first time I hear about this and I want to learn more although I am not a big fan of these sort of things. Any, here is the whole Hadeeth:

حدثنا ‏ ‏أبو خيثمة زهير بن حرب ‏ ‏وإسحق بن إبراهيم ‏ ‏وابن أبي عمر المكي ‏ ‏واللفظ ‏ ‏لزهير ‏ ‏قال ‏ ‏إسحق ‏ ‏أخبرنا ‏ ‏و قال ‏ ‏الآخران ‏ ‏حدثنا ‏ ‏سفيان بن عيينة ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏فرات القزاز ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏أبي الطفيل ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏حذيفة بن أسيد الغفاري ‏ ‏قال ‏
‏اطلع النبي ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏علينا ونحن نتذاكر فقال ما ‏ ‏تذاكرون قالوا نذكر الساعة قال إنها ‏ ‏لن تقوم حتى ترون قبلها عشر ‏ ‏آيات ‏ ‏فذكر الدخان ‏ ‏والدجال ‏ ‏والدابة وطلوع الشمس من مغربها ونزول ‏ ‏عيسى ابن مريم ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏ويأجوج ‏ ‏ومأجوج ‏ ‏وثلاثة خسوف خسف بالمشرق وخسف بالمغرب وخسف بجزيرة ‏ ‏العرب ‏ ‏وآخر ذلك نار تخرج من ‏ ‏اليمن ‏ ‏تطرد الناس إلى محشرهم


My Translation:
Abu Khaithamah Zuhair bin Harb and Issac bin Ibrahim and Ibn Abi Umar Almaki and the wordings are to Zuhair, Issac told us and the other two said: Sufiyan bin Auyyna said: Furat Alqazaz said: Abi Altufayl said: Hudhayfah bin Aseed Alghafar said: The prophet sallah allah aalyh wassalam cam to us and we were talking, he said "What are you talking about". We said: We are talking about the hour. He said: "It wont come until you see 10 signs before it" and he mentioned the smoke, The Dajal, The animal, The sunrise from the west, the coming of Jesus son of Mary, Yajouj and Majouj, 3 swollow up from the east, one in the west and one in the arabian peninsula and finally a fire starting from Yemen pushing humans to their judgment.

I need more time to give you what I think though. :)

[Pineapple Thief]

From Yemen? :o But we're right next to Yemen! :cry:

...sorry, Ill stop going off topic.

[Wanderer]

the appearance of the smoke all over the earth, the rising of the sun from the West, a cold wind coming and killing all believers, leaving only unbelievers ..

As the events I mentioned above are also part of nature, if we are still alive when they will happen, should we look at these as simple natural phenomenons ...



Excuse me, XPress. While I can accept " the appearance of the smoke all over the earth", and can half imagine a catastrophe leading to "the rising of the sun from the West", in what possible way is "a cold wind coming and killing all believers, leaving only unbelievers " construed as a natural event ?

[EarThQuaKe]

I found a book about these signs. To tell you the truth, I never believed in those signs because nothing was mentioned in the quran about it. Anyway, the book talks about all the hadeeths that were said about the signs and were proven as a fabrication. If I get hold of another book then I can support what I am saying even further.


. زهير بن حرب ت 234 وهو ابن أربع وسبعين سنة ، كان متقنا ضابطا ، روى عنه البخاري ومسلم ، وروى عن كثير عند مسلم ، منهم الوليد بن مسلم وروى عن قليل عند البخاري ، اسمه زهير بن حرب بن شداد الشامي يكنى أبا خيثمة سكن بغداد .

دراسة في حياة هذين الراويين
الراويان معاصران للبخاري ومسلم ، ومع أن البخاري يثبت سماع محمد بن مهران عن الوليد بن مسلم إلا انه لا يخرج هذا الحديث مطلقا ، فلماذا ؟ وكذلك فالبخاري ومسلم يرويان عن زهير بن حرب ، إلا أن البخاري أيضا لا يخرج هذا الحديث ، ولا يثبت سماعه عن الوليد بن مسلم .

إلا يكون سكوت البخاري وعدم تخريج هذا الحديث أنَّ هناك شذوذاً أو علة في سند الحديث أما الشذوذ والعلة في متن الحديث فانـهما أوضح من الشمس .

Zuhair bin Harb lived with Al-Bukhary an Muslim and both of them listed the ahadeeth that he told. About in this hadeeth, Al-Bukhary did not mention this hadeeth in his saheeh. If Al-Bukhary did not mention it then there has to be a problem.

[EarThQuaKe]

They ask thee about the (final) Hour - when will be its appointed time? Say: "The knowledge thereof is with my Lord (alone): None but He can reveal as to when it will occur. Heavy were its burden through the heavens and the earth. Only, all of a sudden will it come to you." They ask thee as if thou Wert eager in search thereof: Say: "The knowledge thereof is with Allah (alone), but most men know not." {AlA'raf 187}

[IceTea]

Icy and Earthquake, it seems you read only part of my first post and didn't look at the overall topic and questions I raised. According to muslim scholars or analysts, some of the signs of the Last Hour already happened in the past and some are yet to come in the future.



How come you are talking about signs of the final day and you said that some of the signs already happened in the past.

The Quran states in many verses what will happen that day, some verses below.

[18:47]"One Day We shall remove the mountains, and thou wilt see the earth as a level stretch, and We shall gather them, all together, nor shall We leave out any one of them".

[69:13,14]And when the trumpet is blown with a single blast, And the earth and the mountains are borne away and crushed with a single crushing.

[101:5]And the mountains will be like carded wool.

[14:48]On the day when the earth will be changed to other than the earth, and the heavens (also will be changed) and they will come forth unto Allah, the One, the Almighty,

[Guwantanamist]

Will there be any supernatural events, I doubt it. :)

Did you read the first 2 ayat from Surat Al-Hajj ?
;)