View Full Version : BIBLE: Analyzing => Genesis ~ Chapter 1
X-press
10-01-05, 09:29 PM
I believe many of you never read the Bible, which is the book of the 2nd monotheistic religion in the world, Christianity.
As we have spent many years in this forum and never even tried to understand what is written in what the Christians consider their sacred scriptures, I thought it will be educational to learn something new in the coming months.
I hope this thread, which is the beginning of a very long series, will give all of us a better idea of what is revealed in the Bible and will also allow us to raise some interesting questions in a mature discussion.
I decided to use here one of the latest version which is the "King James Version" of the Bible. The Bible, which comprises the Old Testament and the New Testament, is made of 66 books and the first one is Genesis. Genesis is made of 50 chapters and we will look at the first one in this thread.
X-press
10-01-05, 09:31 PM
Genesis 1 : CHAPTER 1 (King James Version)
1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
6And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
8And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
9And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
10And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
11And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
12And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
13And the evening and the morning were the third day.
14And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
15And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
16And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
17And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
18And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
19And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
20And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
21And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
22And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.
23And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
24And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
25And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
28And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
29And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
30And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
31And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
Please tell us which verses caught your attentions and if you have any comments to make or questions to ask regarding this first chapter?
Muslims and Non-Muslims are welcome, so let's the discussion begin... :)
Wanderer
10-01-05, 10:12 PM
Genesis 1 : CHAPTER 1 (King James Version)
Please tell us which verses caught your attentions and if you have any comments to make or questions to ask regarding this first chapter?
Muslims and Non-Muslims are welcome, so let's the discussion begin... :)
How can we have light (called Day) on the first Day of creation when the Sun is not created until the 4th day ? Have you experienced daylight without the Sun ?
Why would a God create plants/trees (3rd Day) - organisms which require sunlight for their biochemical processes - before He created the Sun (4th Day) ? A good engineer would create the Sun first and plants afterward, since plants are dependant on the Sun.
On which day is God more likely to have made Penguins - on the 4th with the flying fowl and sea creatures, or on the 5th with the animals that live on the ground. Seems Penguin, a land dwelling, semi-aquatic bird, straddle the 2 days.
Why would one create predatory animals like tigers, dolphin, white shark, and spiders - when all living things were to eat fruit and nuts ?
Would the tiger chase a watermelon ?
What "fruit" would a dolphin or 20 ft White Shark eat ?
Do spider webs catch falling apples ?
Milliardo Peacecraft
11-01-05, 10:15 AM
Genesis have two narratives of the creation account, as you will see later. Here is Genesis 1 with footnotes in the New American Bible:
Genesis
Chapter 1
1
1 In the beginning, when God created the heavens and the earth,
2
2 the earth was a formless wasteland, and darkness covered the abyss, while a mighty wind swept over the waters.
3
Then God said, "Let there be light," and there was light.
4
God saw how good the light was. God then separated the light from the darkness.
5
3 God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night." Thus evening came, and morning followed--the first day.
6
Then God said, "Let there be a dome in the middle of the waters, to separate one body of water from the other." And so it happened:
7
God made the dome, and it separated the water above the dome from the water below it.
8
God called the dome "the sky." Evening came, and morning followed--the second day.
9
Then God said, "Let the water under the sky be gathered into a single basin, so that the dry land may appear." And so it happened: the water under the sky was gathered into its basin, and the dry land appeared.
10
God called the dry land "the earth," and the basin of the water he called "the sea." God saw how good it was.
11
Then God said, "Let the earth bring forth vegetation: every kind of plant that bears seed and every kind of fruit tree on earth that bears fruit with its seed in it." And so it happened:
12
the earth brought forth every kind of plant that bears seed and every kind of fruit tree on earth that bears fruit with its seed in it. God saw how good it was.
13
Evening came, and morning followed--the third day.
14
Then God said: "Let there be lights in the dome of the sky, to separate day from night. Let them mark the fixed times, the days and the years,
15
and serve as luminaries in the dome of the sky, to shed light upon the earth." And so it happened:
16
God made the two great lights, the greater one to govern the day, and the lesser one to govern the night; and he made the stars.
17
God set them in the dome of the sky, to shed light upon the earth,
18
to govern the day and the night, and to separate the light from the darkness. God saw how good it was.
19
Evening came, and morning followed--the fourth day.
20
Then God said, "Let the water teem with an abundance of living creatures, and on the earth let birds fly beneath the dome of the sky." And so it happened:
21
God created the great sea monsters and all kinds of swimming creatures with which the water teems, and all kinds of winged birds. God saw how good it was,
22
and God blessed them, saying, "Be fertile, multiply, and fill the water of the seas; and let the birds multiply on the earth."
23
Evening came, and morning followed--the fifth day.
24
Then God said, "Let the earth bring forth all kinds of living creatures: cattle, creeping things, and wild animals of all kinds." And so it happened:
25
God made all kinds of wild animals, all kinds of cattle, and all kinds of creeping things of the earth. God saw how good it was.
26
4 Then God said: "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. Let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, the birds of the air, and the cattle, and over all the wild animals and all the creatures that crawl on the ground."
27
God created man in his image; in the divine image he created him; male and female he created them.
28
God blessed them, saying: "Be fertile and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it. Have dominion over the fish of the sea, the birds of the air, and all the living things that move on the earth."
29
God also said: "See, I give you every seed-bearing plant all over the earth and every tree that has seed-bearing fruit on it to be your food;
30
and to all the animals of the land, all the birds of the air, and all the living creatures that crawl on the ground, I give all the green plants for food." And so it happened.
31
God looked at everything he had made, and he found it very good. Evening came, and morning followed--the sixth day.
Table of Contents Preface Next Chapter
Footnotes
1 [1:1-2:4a] This section introduces the whole Pentateuch. It shows how God brought an orderly universe out of primordial chaos.
2 [2] The abyss: the primordial ocean according to the ancient Semitic cosmogony. After God's creative activity, part of this vast body forms the salt-water seas (Genesis 1:9-10); part of it is the fresh water under the earth (Psalm 33:7; Ezekiel 31:4), which wells forth on the earth as springs and fountains (Genesis 7:11; 8:2; Proverb 3:20). Part of it, "the upper water" (Psalm 148:4; Daniel 3:60), is held up by the dome of the sky (Genesis 1:6-7), from which rain descends on the earth (Genesis 7:11; 2 Kings 7:2, 19; Psalm 104:13). A mighty wind: literally, "a wind of God," or "a spirit of God"; cf Genesis 8:1.
3 [5] In ancient Israel a day was considered to begin at sunset. According to the highly artificial literary structure of Genesis 1:1-2:4a, God's creative activity is divided into six days to teach the sacredness of the sabbath rest on the seventh day in the Israelite religion (Genesis 2:2-3).
4 [26] Man is here presented as the climax of God's creative activity; he resembles God primarily because of the dominion God gives him over the rest of creation.
Cetacea
11-01-05, 10:57 AM
9And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
One place? How many oceans, lakes and rivers do we have?
12And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
What about organism that don’t yield fruit? For example, virus, bacteria, algae, fungi, ferns, etc. When were they created?
16And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
We all know that there is only one light source - the Sun, and the Moon merely reflects light from the Sun. What does it mean by "two great lights"?
Honestly Cetacea, did you want God to outline everything like a text book? :os
X-press
11-01-05, 12:51 PM
I believe the Quran does not state the same order of creation as menioned in the Bible, so it is interesting to read what the King James Version has to say.
Thanks Milliardo for giving us also a copy of Genesis 1:1 as per the New American Bible, so we can maybe see if there is any difference with the version I gave.
1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also
It is indeed interesting to read that though the sun was created on the 4th day, the first thing God created was the day and night. Milliardo, was the light of the day a different light than the one coming from the sun, as we know it?
Cetacea
11-01-05, 12:51 PM
Honestly Cetacea, did you want God to outline everything like a text book? :os
No, it doesn’t have to cover everything, but it should be somewhat correct on subjects that it does cover. How can I trust anything else it says if the basic facts are all wrong. I expect the holy book to be at least half as logical as my elementary school text book. Am I asking for too much?
X-press
11-01-05, 01:15 PM
16And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. We all know that there is only one light source - the Sun, and the Moon merely reflects light from the Sun. What does it mean by "two great lights"?Cetacea, even if there is one main light source which is the sun, it doesn't mean that the moon can't be light either and this as a reflection.
Even the Quran says:
"And made the moon a light in their midst and made the sun as a (Glorious) lamp." (71:16)
"Blessed is He who made constellations in the skies, and placed therein a lamp and a moon reflecting light (25:61)
"It is He who made sun a lamp, and moon a light and measured stages so you know number of years and count (of time)." (10:5)
Still waiting what is Milliardo's opinion about the light of the day being created before the light of the sun, according to Genesis 1.
EarThQuaKe
11-01-05, 01:34 PM
Cetacea, even if there is one main light source which is the sun, it doesn't mean that the moon can't be light either and this as a reflection.
Even the Quran says:
"And made the moon a light in their midst and made the sun as a (Glorious) lamp." (71:16)
"Blessed is He who made constellations in the skies, and placed therein a lamp and a moon reflecting light (25:61)
"It is He who made sun a lamp, and moon a light and measured stages so you know number of years and count (of time)." (10:5)
Still waiting what is Milliardo's opinion about the light of the day being created before the light of the sun, according to Genesis 1.
X-Press.. this is a bible thread, do you mind not getting the Islamic beliefs and the Quran in it.
Want to discuss the bible, then fine discuss it. If you want to discuss the Quran, then please open a new thread.
monotheism
11-01-05, 03:09 PM
If you read the Hebrew Bible, you see clearly that it was revealed to the Jewish people. It would thus seem logical to consult with them about what it means, and not with the Christians, who were never authorised by the Creator to offer their interpretations. It's certainly odd that the first people that the first poster above considered consulting with was those who never received the Torah.
Wanderer
11-01-05, 06:41 PM
If you read the Hebrew Bible, you see clearly that it was revealed to the Jewish people. It would thus seem logical to consult with them about what it means, and not with the Christians, who were never authorised by the Creator to offer their interpretations. It's certainly odd that the first people that the first poster above considered consulting with was those who never received the Torah.
Indeed.
It'd be like me asking you about the best glazes for a baked ham.
:)
Wanderer
11-01-05, 06:47 PM
If you read the Hebrew Bible, you see clearly that it was revealed to the Jewish people. It would thus seem logical to consult with them about what it means, and not with the Christians, who were never authorised by the Creator to offer their interpretations. .
Glad you're here.
Do you interpret the above Genesis passages to indicate that when these creatures were created, God intended them to eat fruit and nuts ?
http://www.batnet.com/seeandsea/animals/bpics/gws1_b.gif
http://www.plainsboro.com/~lemke/prizegames/switcharoo/gamepics/Animals/tiger.jpg
I liked "That's All" from the eponymous album.
Cetacea
12-01-05, 02:57 AM
If you read the Hebrew Bible, you see clearly that it was revealed to the Jewish people. It would thus seem logical to consult with them about what it means, and not with the Christians, who were never authorised by the Creator to offer their interpretations. It's certainly odd that the first people that the first poster above considered consulting with was those who never received the Torah.
Were you there when the Torah was “revealed”? Why do you think that only Jews can be consulted? Is it because
1. Jews were the chosen people therefore they received the knowledge directly from God?
2. Jews are smarter than anyone else?
3. Jews are more likely to be able to read Hebrew. If this is your choice, what about non-Jews who learned to read and write Hebrew?
I’m just trying to understand where your superiority came from.
Milliardo Peacecraft
12-01-05, 05:13 AM
Light of day--would mean then sunlight, as opposed to the lesser light, which would mean moonlight, though we can see that God also made light and darkness in the first day. I think the first day God separated time, or made time, so that there is a day and night before fixing the sun and moon on those respective times.
As for the other questions, the Bible is not meant to be a scientific book; the creation narrative was made to show God as Creator and Ruler of the universe, who can make order and govern everything He made. That is the foremost thing that should come to mind first. Since God created all things then, and saw all are good, then we can then assume that such things as viruses, bacteria, etc. were created by Him as well.
As for consulting only Jews--I don't see why we should be limited to that. God doesn't seem to have given any one people monopoly of knowledge of Scripture. Christians as well see Jews as the first people who have been given by God His message, so we give due respect to them. I hope Jews would also give as much to Christians as well.
Do you interpret the above Genesis passages to indicate that when these creatures were created, God intended them to eat fruit and nuts ?
Sorry to butt in, when I read it I got a different meaning (possibly because I have just finished studying ecology), because technically the animals on a higher trophic level animals such as the ones you listed do eat plants but indirectly. Carnivores eat herbivores which eat plants. Funnily enough if you disturb the vegetation the animals at the higher trophic level would be the first die off.
Were you there when the Torah was “revealed”? Why do you think that only Jews can be consulted? Is it because
1. Jews were the chosen people therefore they received the knowledge directly from God?
2. Jews are smarter than anyone else?
3. Jews are more likely to be able to read Hebrew. If this is your choice, what about non-Jews who learned to read and write Hebrew?
Or perhaps because they have been reading, studying and questioning it a lot longer than the christians.
Please direct me to a church that has been reading the same portions every week, every year for the pass 3000 years.
X-press
12-01-05, 11:47 AM
X-Press.. this is a bible thread, do you mind not getting the Islamic beliefs and the Quran in it. EarThQuaKe, thanks for the comments and my exemples were not meant to be any comparaisons, but more a support that both the Sun and the Moon were looked as 'lights'.
I personally do not see why we shouldn't be allow to give the islamic point of view, but on my side I will try to minimize it as much as possible. I would have surely like to hear your opinion about this first chapter of Genesis.
X-press
12-01-05, 11:52 AM
Light of day--would mean then sunlight, as opposed to the lesser light, which would mean moonlight, though we can see that God also made light and darkness in the first day. I think the first day God separated time, or made time, so that there is a day and night before fixing the sun and moon on those respective times.
God can do anything and It could be possible that He created (on day one) a light of the day, which was not the light reflected by the sun as we know it. It could have been another type of light. As a thought: Will the light in Heaven or in Hell have something to do with the sun?
Scientifically speaking, it doesn't seem logical that plants can be created before the Sun, but again knowing God's power, He could surely have made or programmed them in such a way that they didn't immediately need the Sun light to grow. My answers are of course an attempt to try to find a logical explaination to Genesis, chapter 1.
Could "Genisis 1" be how God just invisioned the big picture and did not create anything at all until later in a logical order?
X-press
12-01-05, 12:12 PM
If you read the Hebrew Bible, you see clearly that it was revealed to the Jewish people. It would thus seem logical to consult with them about what it means, and not with the Christians, who were never authorised by the Creator to offer their interpretations. It's certainly odd that the first people that the first poster above considered consulting with was those who never received the Torah.Monotheism, as for you saying that the Christians "were never authorised by the Creator to offer their interpretations", I am not sure everyone will agree on this. As you know, the Christians do not limit themselves to the Old Testament only as the Jews do.
I agree that it will be interesting to read the Hebrew Bible, but I believe none of us knows Hebrew. However, I will make sure that a separate analysis of an english version of the Torah is done in this forum.
Cetacea
12-01-05, 08:34 PM
[font=comic sans ms]Light of day--would mean then sunlight, as opposed to the lesser light, which would mean moonlight, though we can see that God also made light and darkness in the first day.
Lesser light? There is light(the Sun) and no light (the Moon). If you have a lamp and a mirror, would you call the mirror the lesser light? The passage talked specifically about two LIGHT SOURCES. Is it possible that people back then thought the Moon emitted light too?
[font=comic sans ms]I think the first day God separated time, or made time,
Nice try, but what does time have anything to do with light? Without the Sun we wouldn’t have the concept of day or night because we’d be spinning in the dark, but of course, we wouldn’t be here either.
[font=comic sans ms]so that there is a day and night before fixing the sun and moon on those respective times.
The timing of day and night is dictated by the rotaion speed of the Earth. How does "fixing" the sun and the moon make any difference? It’s amazing how people offer twisted interpretations when things don’t fit.
Wanderer
12-01-05, 10:13 PM
Sorry to butt in, when I read it I got a different meaning (possibly because I have just finished studying ecology), because technically the animals on a higher trophic level animals such as the ones you listed do eat plants but indirectly. Carnivores eat herbivores which eat plants..
Except that permission to eat meat is given later, to Noah.
009:003 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.
http://www.rosicrucian.com/bible/01_gen.htm
This would be unnecessary if mankind (and what we call carnivores) had already found and exploited your apologist "loophole".
Funnily enough if you disturb the vegetation the animals at the higher trophic level would be the first die off.
Theory or observation ? Micro or Macro ?
The reason I question your statement is that in some ecosystems - say one with deer, rabbit, and wolves - there will be many, many more rabbits and deer than wolves. The diminishing of vegetation causes immediate distress to the herbivores (which eat almost constantly) but until the herds of deer and rabbits start dying off, the wolves have plenty to eat (and they eat periodically/sporadically). Especially all the weakened, starving, distressed rabbits and deer moving about looking for food.
Additionally, once herbivores are scarce, our wolves can start eating each other.
X-press
12-01-05, 10:18 PM
Lesser light? There is light(the Sun) and no light (the Moon). If you have a lamp and a mirror, would you call the mirror the lesser light? The passage talked specifically about two LIGHT SOURCES. Is it possible that people back then thought the Moon emitted light too?What you say Cetacea to Milliardo makes sense, but as the moon is also mentioned by God in the Quran as a light, there must be an explaination somewhere. I know it is a thread about the Christian point of view, but could it be possible that God made twice the same mistake? I don't think so...
Would it be wrong if God had mentioned that He created small lights scattered in the sky, when He refers about the stars?
Wanderer
12-01-05, 10:21 PM
What you say Cetacea to Milliardo makes sense, but as the moon is also mentioned by God in the Quran as a light, there must be an explaination somewhere. I know it is a thread about the Christian point of view, but could it be possible that God made twice the same mistake? I don't think so...
Perhaps you've assigned the mistake to the wrong person.
Could it be possible that ancient authors (people) "made twice the same mistake?"
The answer is clearly, YES !
X-press
12-01-05, 10:33 PM
I would like to know why the King James Version of the Bible says:
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
While Milliardo's New American Bible says:
2 the earth was a formless wasteland, and darkness covered the abyss, while a mighty wind swept over the waters.
Isn't there a big difference between the two?
Cetacea
12-01-05, 10:41 PM
Would it be wrong if God had mentioned that He created small lights scattered in the sky, when He refers about the stars?
Stars do emit light, but they are not small. And no star other than the Sun is close enough to "light" the Earth. Referring stars as "small lights" is consistent with the ancient and primitive view of the universe, another proof of the human origin of the Bible.
Wanderer
13-01-05, 12:21 AM
I would like to know why the King James Version of the Bible says:
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
While Milliardo's New American Bible says:
2 the earth was a formless wasteland, and darkness covered the abyss, while a mighty wind swept over the waters.
Isn't there a big difference between the two?
Yes, there surely is. (Nice that we get to agree for a change, eh?).
In one, it appears that a "part" of God moved to and fro - but isn't God everywhere ?
In the other, a natural (non-spirit) force moves. This avoids the problem in the KJV translation.
Wanderer
13-01-05, 12:29 AM
Scientifically speaking, it doesn't seem logical that plants can be created before the Sun, but again knowing God's power, ....
Actually, you are presuming God's power.
My answers are of course an attempt to try to find a logical explaination to Genesis, chapter 1.
Not really true unless your possibilities for a logical explanation includes that it is a man-made fiction - like Hercules fighting the Hydra.
Milliardo Peacecraft
13-01-05, 01:02 AM
As said in the footnote: A mighty wind: literally, "a wind of God," or "a spirit of God"; cf Genesis 8:1. This refers to X-press' question about the KJV and NAB versions.
Source of light: it should be noted that the passage should not be taken literally, though for the ancients it would also be true that moonlight would be taken as a source of light at night. For us it would mean that the moon provides the light at night, though that doesn't mean the moon in itself is a source of light the same way the sun is.
X-press might be right in the first day wherein the light spoken is God's light, which would be possible in that context.
Wanderer
13-01-05, 01:09 AM
MilliP, are you saying wind and spirit are synonymous ?
Source of light: it should be noted that the passage should not be taken literally, though for the ancients it would also be true that moonlight would be taken as a source of light at night. For us it would mean that the moon provides the light at night, though that doesn't mean the moon in itself is a source of light the same way the sun is.[/font]
The Moon is a terribly unreliable source of light as it goes through its phases. Remember, it's full or nearly full for only a few days a month and is dim and completely dark for an equal number of days.
X-press might be right in the first day wherein the light spoken is God's light, which would be possible in that context.[/font]
In other words, you have no clue what it all means .
Milliardo Peacecraft
13-01-05, 01:38 AM
In the Bible the wind sometimes would be referred to as a spirit, or in this case the spirit of God.
As for some of the other discussions, it might be interesting to look here: http://forums.starwars.com/thread.jspa?threadID=197223&start=7065 It seems the creation narrative (and then some) is being discussed there.
No, Wandy, it's only after X-press' post that the reason seems plausible. After that, it seems to fit in well and explain the first and fourth days.
Pineapple Thief
13-01-05, 01:46 AM
We know the Sun may be the primary source of light, but its not the only source of light. On certain cloudless nights the stars light up the sky :)
Which, of course, isnt enough to light up the earth, because they are too far away. However, it does open the door.
Cetacea, you know she doesnt think they are 'little lights' or little at all. At least I hope you do.
Wanderer
13-01-05, 01:46 AM
In the Bible the wind sometimes would be referred to as a spirit, or in this case the spirit of God.
Do you yet believe that God prefers to move from areas of high pressure to areas of low pressure ?
I can certainly understand the confusion of ancient peoples who experienced this strange, invisible force (wind) and could only imagine what it was. That would easily explain how and why "the wind sometimes would be referred to as a spirit, or in this case the spirit of God"
No, Wandy, it's only after X-press' post that the reason seems plausible. After that, it seems to fit in well and explain the first and fourth days.
Do you think God was just a wee bit surprised when He saw that the light was good ?
Wanderer
13-01-05, 01:51 AM
Sorry to butt in, when I read it I got a different meaning (possibly because I have just finished studying ecology), because technically the animals on a higher trophic level animals such as the ones you listed do eat plants but indirectly. Carnivores eat herbivores which eat plants.
God: "I said thou shalt not kill"
Kara: "Whoa, hold on. All I did was pull the trigger - it's that darn bullet hitting him in the head that killed him."
This would be unnecessary if mankind (and what we call carnivores) had already found and exploited your apologist "loophole".
Considering I take genesis as allegorical and not literal as you seem to do, that makes me an apologist? I was only offering a suggestion to this
conundrum.
The reason I question your statement is that in some ecosystems - say one with deer, rabbit, and wolves - there will be many, many more rabbits and deer than wolves. The diminishing of vegetation causes immediate distress to the herbivores (which eat almost constantly) but until the herds of deer and rabbits start dying off, the wolves have plenty to eat (and they eat periodically/sporadically). Especially all the weakened, starving, distressed rabbits and deer moving about looking for food.
It has more to do with the flow of energy, not so much with population. The energy flow decreases exponentially by the time it reaches the carnivores any disturbance and this could decrease it dramatically .
But I should correct myself and I apologise, I should not have said "first to die off" but to become extinct in that community.
God: "I said thou shalt not kill"
Kara: "Whoa, hold on. All I did was pull the trigger - it's that darn bullet hitting him in the head that killed him."
I am going to consider that as ad hominem and possibly non sequitur to boot.
To me day 4 is the creation of time or more likely regulation of time. Perhaps on day 4 the earth settled into orbit around the sun and the moon around the earth. Again it is only a suggestion.
monotheism
13-01-05, 04:05 PM
Thanks for your questions, cetacia:
Were you there when the Torah was “revealed”?
Well, my direct ancestors were there, and according to the Jewish traditional, all souls of all Jews of all future generations were present, so the answer is yes.
Why do you think that only Jews can be consulted?
Because G-d only granted them the authority to interpret and apply the Torah's teachings, to serve as "A light unto the nations," as Isaiah says. Read the Hebrew Scriptures inside, and you'll see that for yourself.
Is it because
1. Jews were the chosen people therefore they received the knowledge directly from God?
Actually, the Jewish nation was chosen when the Torah was revealed at Sinai.
Jews are smarter than anyone else?
No, Jews are not necessarily smarter, but they are spiritually built differently such that they can serve as the teachers and Rabbis for mankind.
Wanderer
13-01-05, 05:09 PM
Considering I take genesis as allegorical and not literal as you seem to do, ...
Perhaps on day 4 the earth settled into orbit around the sun and the moon around the earth. Again it is only a suggestion.
You seem to contradict yourself. You take an allegory (symbolic) and then map it onto a proposed (and very unscientific) "real world" event.
"The allegory is closely related to the parable, fable, and metaphor, differing from them largely in intricacy and length."
http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/ent/A0803383.html
I do not take Genisis literally. I see it as mythology. Thus I have no reason to try and map it to physical, "real world" events in the hopes of keeping it perceived as a meaningful source of information about the origins of the world.
I was only offering a suggestion to this conundrum..
= apologist.
"A person who argues in defense or justification of something, such as a doctrine, policy, or institution"
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=apologist
Wanderer
13-01-05, 05:21 PM
I am going to consider that as ad hominem and possibly non sequitur to boot.
If that helpos you cope, then by all means do so.
Cognitive dissonance at work.
God creates falcons and eagles.
God says fruit and nuts and green things are for food.
You know from your studies (and simple logic) that the raptors are not suited for swooping down on unsuspecting oranges. However, they are exceptionally suited for eating wabbits, mice, fish and poodles (which might qualify as a vegetable).
So you concoct a possible "loophole" to explain away the, what's your word, ah, "conundrum". As in my example re: the bullet.
Cetacea
13-01-05, 08:44 PM
Thanks for your questions, cetacia:
Well, my direct ancestors were there, and according to the Jewish traditional, all souls of all Jews of all future generations were present, so the answer is yes.
All I can say is that you have got to be delusional to believe this stuff.
Because G-d only granted them the authority to interpret and apply the Torah's teachings, to serve as "A light unto the nations," as Isaiah says. Read the Hebrew Scriptures inside, and you'll see that for yourself.
You mean the book written by Jews and for Jews? Why am I not surprised that it says “Jews are the best"? Every nation and ethic group has something like that. Ancient Chinese thought they were the "chosen" people and that's why they called their country China which means center kingdom. Everyone else was supposed to serve the "center kingdom." Boy were they surprised when the Europeans showed up at the door with guns and cannons.
No, Jews are not necessarily smarter, but they are spiritually built differently such that they can serve as the teachers and Rabbis for mankind.
In other words, Jews ARE superior. You know this my people are better than your people crap was used by Nazis to justify the holocaust. Muslims, Christians, Mormons, etc all think that they are "spiritually built differently" than anyone else. You wonder why there is no peace in this world.
You seem to contradict yourself. You take an allegory (symbolic) and then map it onto a proposed (and very unscientific) "real world" event.
I don't know to me it seemed to be a very basic solar system formation explanation, but then again I am no physicist. I am only trying understand what is meant in this book with what we know today, do you think that if this book was written today and not ~3000 yrs ago, the language and terms used would be a little different?
"The allegory is closely related to the parable, fable, and metaphor, differing from them largely in intricacy and length."
Thank you for telling me what allegory means. :duh:
"A person who argues in defense or justification of something, such as a doctrine, policy, or institution"
Ohh Gawd, you telling me i didn't know what an apologist is either? Shame on me.
But then again i am not the one on trial, the book of Genesis is. Offering a suggestion either right or wrong because I take the book allegorically and not mythological and trying to understand it in terms we use today, makes me apologist then so be it. Do you think they will let me change my moniker?
X-press
14-01-05, 12:22 AM
All I can say is that you have got to be delusional to believe this stuff. Ceatacea, with all my respect I appreciate your participation in this forum and you are surely a very smart person, but I am afraid that you are in no better position to tell a member that he must be 'delusional' to believe in what he believes...in this case the Torah for monotheism. We all have our faith in something, so let's respect that.
Pineapple Thief
14-01-05, 12:27 AM
I think respect is something a little lacking in this sabla in particular. Its one thing to discuss a faith and put forth your views, its another to show absolutely no respect to other people. And it doesnt make you look very smart, either.
X-press
14-01-05, 12:39 AM
11
Then God said, "Let the earth bring forth vegetation: every kind of plant that bears seed and every kind of fruit tree on earth that bears fruit with its seed in it." And so it happened:
12
the earth brought forth every kind of plant that bears seed and every kind of fruit tree on earth that bears fruit with its seed in it. God saw how good it was.
13
Evening came, and morning followed--the third day.
....
20
Then God said, "Let the water teem with an abundance of living creatures, and on the earth let birds fly beneath the dome of the sky." And so it happened:
21
God created the great sea monsters and all kinds of swimming creatures with which the water teems, and all kinds of winged birds. God saw how good it was,
22
and God blessed them, saying, "Be fertile, multiply, and fill the water of the seas; and let the birds multiply on the earth."
23
Evening came, and morning followed--the fifth day.
Do you interpret the above Genesis passages to indicate that when these creatures were created, God intended them to eat fruit and nuts ?I still don't understand why Wanderer thinks that there is no logic in creating vegetations, fruits and seeds and then birds with sea creatures?
Where does it say that the sea creatures are meant to eat this vegetation, fruits or seeds??? This can be for the winged birds and the other creatures to come later on. Aren't the sea creatures eating sea plants (see weeds) or eating fishes among them??
Pineapple Thief
14-01-05, 12:47 AM
I always find these kinds of discussion impossible because you're trying to compare apples with oranges. And when the logic in either one of them is flawed, as is the case here (and most places), it makes it even more difficult.
X-press
14-01-05, 01:02 AM
PThief, I still think that a conversation can take place even if we all have a different opinion. The point is not really to all agree but to compare each others views and learn from each other.
If, for instance, I had read alone this chapter of Genesis, I would have probably miss many points already brought here by other members and which can make me later on think deeper about a particular passage.
Lastly, the point of this thread is for some of us (who are interested) to read together the begining of the Bible and present our opinions. I personally don't think it is a waste of time and I hope others will agree with me.
Pineapple Thief
14-01-05, 01:09 AM
Oh no, not a waste of time XP :) Sorry if it came out that way. Constructive criticism, positive thinking is always wonderful. A perfect example is when Millardo said ' X-press might be right in the first day wherein the light spoken is God's light, which would be possible in that context.'
It showed that there HAS been some progress made, which is beyond brilliant. My criticism was not actually aimed at this thread in particular, but any general thread where one person says 'you are wrong' and the other says 'you are wrong' in religion sabla. Trying to prove each other wrong, thats the difficulty. If we were to accept that its impossible to prove anyone wrong either way, jsut to try to show others why we think we are right, thats the way.
Thanks for making me clarify XP, dont want anyone to get the wrong idea ;)
Cetacea
14-01-05, 02:46 AM
Ceatacea, with all my respect I appreciate your participation in this forum and you are surely a very smart person, but I am afraid that you are in no better position to tell a member that he must be 'delusional' to believe in what he believes...in this case the Torah for monotheism. We all have our faith in something, so let's respect that.
XP and PT, with all my respect some of the stuff put forth by monotheism is bordeline racism or justification for racism. It is what Nazis used to justify holocaust and what Israelis use to justify the occupation of Palestine. If you feel this kind of stuff should be tolerated then don’t complain next time IDF bulldozes some houses in Gaza or West Bank because according to their holy book, Israel is their land not yours.
If that helpos you cope, then by all means do so.
Just goes to show your debating techniques are laughable.
Cognitive dissonance at work.
Far from it.
God creates falcons and eagles.
God says fruit and nuts and green things are for food.
You know from your studies (and simple logic) that the raptors are not suited for swooping down on unsuspecting oranges. However, they are exceptionally suited for eating wabbits, mice, fish and poodles (which might qualify as a vegetable).
So you concoct a possible "loophole" to explain away the, what's your word, ah, "conundrum". As in my example re: the bullet.
Well if you want to take it literally, then yes the all the animals had to eat a Banana for breakfast, a salad for lunch and a big bowl of fruit for dinner. You said that you consider this mythology, does mythology have to make sense (even though some myths are based on truths). Since myths (aka "allegory" according to Oxford dictionary) usually contain the supernatural and abnormal, so why can't God or this omnipotent force in this story make a usually canivorous animal eat fruit?
Isn't there a big difference between the two?
That is something expected from too many versions!
All I can say is that you have got to be delusional to believe this stuff.
All I can say is when you truthfully write something about your culture and beliefs please remind me to show you the same discourtesy.
Cetacea
14-01-05, 10:38 PM
All I can say is when you truthfully write something about your culture and beliefs please remind me to show you the same discourtesy.
If my culture believed that I was superior than anyone else, your land belonged to me and you had to move out right now (where do you live in Australia?), please do tell me that I’m delusional.
If my culture believed that I was superior than anyone else, your land belonged to me and you had to move out right now (where do you live in Australia?), please do tell me that I’m delusional.
Actually i wouldn't call you delusional, I would call your culture delusional. Big difference. And something you should learn to differentiate.
And another thing you should learn, instead of attacking the messenger, attack the message.
monotheism
19-01-05, 08:24 AM
All I can say is that you have got to be delusional to believe this stuff.
to believe in souls? in a Creator? in higher spiritual forces and realities that are beyond the human brain's ken? If that makes me "delusional," so be it.
You mean the book written by Jews and for Jews?
Well, yes, with Divine authority. In any case, you seem to have acknowledged my point that non-Jews, being that the Torah was not revealed directly to them, are unqualified to offer interpretations of the Torah's text.
That's not to say that non-Jews shouldn't study the Torah, G-d's Law and moral teaching; on the contrary, they should study it, but only under the guidance of its Divinely appointed teachers, the Jewish people. (Unfortunately, nowadays many Jews are ignorant of their heritage and are thus not in a position to teach it to others; however, those who adhere to the traditional Orthodox Jewish teachings, e.g., as explained on www.chabad.org are in that position.)
Why am I not surprised that it says “Jews are the best"? Every nation and ethic group has something like that...You know this my people are better than your people crap was used by Nazis to justify the holocaust. Muslims, Christians, Mormons, etc all think that they are "spiritually built differently" than anyone else. You wonder why there is no peace in this world.
Good question. The radical difference is very simple: The Jews' chosenness gives them far greater obligations to the Creator, which is why there are far more commandments for Jews than for non-Jews, and it gives them a responsibility to set an example and teach the world about the Creator and the obligation to serve Him by being a moral person, according to the Torah's universal laws of morality.
For more explanation on this, see: http://moshiach.com/explore/kb/index.php?page=index_v2&id=182&c=8
Milliardo Peacecraft
20-01-05, 03:03 PM
That's not to say that non-Jews shouldn't study the Torah, G-d's Law and moral teaching; on the contrary, they should study it, but only under the guidance of its Divinely appointed teachers, the Jewish people. (Unfortunately, nowadays many Jews are ignorant of their heritage and are thus not in a position to teach it to others; however, those who adhere to the traditional Orthodox Jewish teachings, e.g., as explained on www.chabad.org are in that position.)
I won't take this matter up here; later on when we move into the New Testament would this be more pertinent. To go into this issue would make the thread off-topic.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.1.10 Copyright © 2012 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.