Is the Quran for today? [Archive]

DorellaM

28-10-04, 12:26 AM

quran is supposed to be forever!!
and the Bible was sent by GOD so it will last till the quran comes coz we muslims belive that the bible isnt the real bible sent by GOD because it wsant written till 400 A.D!!
soo in the "REAL" bible there was a part which says that the last prophet will come and his name is ahmed(same meaning as mohammed)!!

How can the Bible be written at 400 A.D. is the first 5 books of the Bible are the Torah??? The Torah was written way before Jesus.... :lost:

And can you tell me where in the Bible is talks about Ahmed?

Thanks

To be more specific on my original question:

The Four wives option

I know it has been discussed before and i saw that many women didn't agree that that part of the Quran is for today, and alot did agree. But if the Quran is written for today then that still applies right?

Omani King

28-10-04, 12:38 AM

ok,
the torah was written in moses time(its for the jewish ppl)and then jesus was sent by god for a task whoch is show thethe jewish ppl to the right path but only little belived in him soo the christians were hunted by the jews and they couldnt write the bible till 400 A.D!! and in the bible that was sent by jesus Ahmed was described as the last prophet after jesus!!
and bout the four wives u can marry four but its best that u marry one then if u want to marry another she should(not a must) be a wife of a dead man and she has children so u take cae of the children!!
and if u did marry more than one you must be very fair between then(although most ppl who have more than one wife these days ignore this rule :mad: !!) for E.G if u gave a wife a hair comb you must give the other the same thing!!

Scorpio27

28-10-04, 12:41 AM

Dore , I had a thread about Polygamy !

You better search those..;)

DorellaM

28-10-04, 12:49 AM

ok,
the torah was written in moses time(its for the jewish ppl)and then jesus was sent by god for a task whoch is show thethe jewish ppl to the right path but only little belived in him soo the christians were hunted by the jews and they couldnt write the bible till 400 A.D!! and in the bible that was sent by jesus Ahmed was described as the last prophet after jesus!!

I'm just asking where you get this info from.....

OK, how about the verse in the quran that says:

Slay or crucify or cut the hands and feet of the unbelievers(5:34)

Was that for then or now?

Scorpio27

28-10-04, 12:52 AM

:( Don't confuse me again DorE!

Omani King

28-10-04, 12:59 AM

heeey DORE i checked it it says ((the punishment of the people that fight against ALLAH and his prophets is slaying or cut their hands or crucify them)) heres the explination:
the quran is forever we belive in that ok, but sumtimes ALLAH sends messages to his prophet through the quran and this was one of the messages!!

DorellaM

28-10-04, 01:00 AM

Dore , I had a thread about Polygamy !

You better search those..;)

Yea i know, and that is one of the reasons i started this thread. Because alot of the women didn't agree with that.

Omani King

28-10-04, 01:04 AM

and i got this story in the our books and sum christian books too!!

DorellaM

28-10-04, 01:05 AM

heeey DORE i checked it it says ((the punishment of the people that fight against ALLAH and his prophets is slaying or cut their hands or crucify them))

It doesn't say "nonbelievers" ?

Listen, no need to get upset, im just a person who is curious. I'm not attacking anyone or any belief, im just trying to understand some things here. I would think you and many would be happy to give answers to some of my questions because i have alot.

Omani King

28-10-04, 01:06 AM

he did send to the prophet messages and i can give you over 100 E.G's if u want!!!

Omani King

28-10-04, 01:09 AM

ok and who said imm upset im just tryin to answer in my way but ahh i couldnt find a very clear way to explain it!!!

Omani King

28-10-04, 01:10 AM

and no it doesnt say no-belivers it say the ones that fight against ALLAH and his Prophet!!

DorellaM

28-10-04, 01:11 AM

Can you point me to an online version of the quran in english?

Omani King

28-10-04, 01:14 AM

well wait ill look and give u the link.......!!!

Omani King

28-10-04, 01:16 AM

005.033
YUSUFALI: The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;
PICKTHAL: The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom;
SHAKIR: The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement,

Omani King

28-10-04, 01:17 AM

and here's the link just select the chapter
http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/SURAI.HTM

DorellaM

28-10-04, 01:26 AM

Thanks, ill check it out!

Blessed

28-10-04, 01:37 AM

http://www.quran.nu/

This one, in my opinion, is more eye friendly. It has the Arabic text with the English translation of the meanings, and you can even listen to the recitation of each ayah (verse) and look at the transliteration.

By the way: Surah means chapter and Ayah means verse. Hope this helps.

X-press

28-10-04, 01:40 AM

Is the Quran written for yesterday, today, and forever?

The Quran, being the Last Revelations of God, is meant to be till the Last Day men are on earth. Why it may seems by some that it is not meant for today, it is because these particular individuals are already on a path which goes against what God has told them to do...

As years and centuries pass, societies are overall going astray and it is easier for them to say that the Words of God doesn't match their 'deviation' (if I may say), rather than for them to admit that their are in fact on the wrong path...

DorellaM

28-10-04, 01:42 AM

Thanks Blessed!

So who wages war against them? I mean is there anyone in specific today that wage war against "Allah and his Messenger"?

But in the very next verse those people are forgiven in they become muslims...?

Omani King

28-10-04, 01:47 AM

well yeah i think(im being sarcastic) the jews in general( the ones in israel specificly) are destroying thousands of palestenian homes in palestine everyday just because they say ALLAH is our GOD!!
i mean if those ppl were jew i bet 100000000000000000% tht there houses weent going to be demolished or dont u think soo?!!
i mean see the americans if a cat died during an operation done by a vet he would be sued!!!, wut bout the palestinians dont they deserve to live in peace lik us!!!
think it for yourself and answer me!!

Omani King

28-10-04, 01:55 AM

One of ALLAH 's names is the forgivenor he says tht any human that was a non-beliver and even was even hurting muslims once he becomes a muslim then his blood is sealed from all the other muslims!!
and all his sins are forgiven, this was the message the muslims were fighting for in the old day!!!, but where r the muslims today?!!!
Life has attracted them more than the honour of dieng in ALLAH 's will :sorry: :shut: :( :mad: :bang: !!!! :shoot: :no: <-----ME!!!

DorellaM

28-10-04, 01:55 AM

I thought the Palestinians and the Jews were waging war against each other...HMMM

thats another story in itself.

So these are the people (the jews) who are allowed to get their hands cut off?

amo_l_oman

28-10-04, 01:55 AM

So who wages war against them? I mean is there anyone in specific today that wage war against "Allah and his Messenger"?
The verse was revealed when the new born and established muslim community was attacked to mine its unity, and the verse is valid also for today.

But in the very next verse those people are forgiven in they become muslims...?
It says:

Save those who repent before you overpower them. For know that Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

If they repent in time , sure God will forgive them.

DorellaM

28-10-04, 01:56 AM

It says diff in that second online Quran link

Omani King

28-10-04, 01:58 AM

if the jew raised a weapon against islam then when the muslim wins they are allowed to cut their hands of but like weak muslims do today and attack innocent people or sum1 tht didnt want to harm islam, the mmuslims arnt allowed to touch them or their money or anything tht has to do with them!!

Cetacea

28-10-04, 02:00 AM

If you believe the universe was created in six days, stars are missiles thrown at devils, salt water and fresh water don’t mix, humans were created from a clump of dirt, bones were developed before muscles in fetal development, then Quran is definitely forever for you. ;)

Omani King

28-10-04, 02:04 AM

DorellaM

28-10-04, 02:05 AM

What....??? :confused:

Omani King

28-10-04, 02:07 AM

What....??? :confused:
which part amazez u?!!

Cetacea

28-10-04, 02:11 AM

and add to that cetacea that ants get crushed and not killed!!!coz they have a very high quantities of glass an australian proffesor was researching this when he saw the bits of glass and knew tht the quran said this 1400 years ago he became a muslim!!
Like the king said, if you believe that ants are made of glass, the Quran is definitely forever and ever for you. ;)

DorellaM

28-10-04, 02:19 AM

Nothing amazes me,,, all of it confuses me, i dont have any idea what you both are talking about.

Omani King

28-10-04, 02:23 AM

ok these are facts which are told in the quran 1400 years ago and these days scientst prove tht they are right and most of them when they know tht these facts were in the quran they become muslims!!

this is it breifly!!

Cetacea

28-10-04, 02:52 AM

Nothing amazes me,,, all of it confuses me, i dont have any idea what you both are talking about.
If you find what we said confusing and contradicting to reality, the Quran is probably not for you. Try the Origin of Species instead. :D

X-press

28-10-04, 03:57 AM

the Bible was sent by GOD so it will last till the quran comes coz we muslims belive that the bible isnt the real bible sent by GOD because it wsant written till 400 A.D!!With all my respect, what you said here Omani King can be somehow confusing...

The Bible was part of the Revelations sent by God in the time of Prophet Jesus (pbuh) and we, muslims, believe in its original version only, which can no longer be found!...as according to the Quran, the Bible has been distorded by men:

[3:78] There is among them a section who distort the Book with their tongues: (as they read) you would think it is a part of the Book, but it is no part of the Book; and they say, "That is from Allah," but it is not from Allah: it is they who tell a lie against Allah, and (well) they know it!
[5:14] From those, too, who call themselves Christians, We did take a Covenant, but they forgot a good part of the Message that was sent them: so We estranged them, with enmity and hatred between the one and the other, to the Day of Judgment. And soon will Allah show them what it is they have done.

X-press

28-10-04, 04:14 AM

And can you tell me where in the Bible is talks about Ahmed?
And can you tell me, in the thousand prophecies regarding the coming of Jesus in the Old Testament, where Jesus is mentioned by name?

I am not talking about the title 'Messiah', which is translated as 'Christ', but the name 'Jesus' itself? Is there a single Prophecy where it says the name of the Massiah to come will be "Jesus"?

Once you give me the answer, then I will tell you were the coming of Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) was already prophesized in the Bible...

Dorellam, to avoid more confusion, I think you should stick to one specific question and eventually move on to the next, once you gave time to the members to reply properly....

DorellaM

28-10-04, 07:17 AM

With all my respect, what you said here Omani King can be somehow confusing...

The Bible was part of the Revelations sent by God in the time of Prophet Jesus (pbuh) and we, muslims, believe in its original version only, which can no longer be found!...as according to the Quran, the Bible has been distorded by men:

The earliest version of the Bible is found contained in The Dead Sea scrolls found here: http://www.ibiblio.org/expo/deadsea.scrolls.exhibit/intro.html

And can you tell me, in the thousand prophecies regarding the coming of Jesus in the Old Testament, where Jesus is mentioned by name?

I am not talking about the title 'Messiah', which is translated as 'Christ', but the name 'Jesus' itself? Is there a single Prophecy where it says the name of the Massiah to come will be "Jesus"?

Once you give me the answer, then I will tell you were the coming of Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) was already prophesized in the Bible...

I never said Jesus name was mentioned in the Old Testament, Omani King said Ahmed's name was mentioned as "The Prophet" and i was just questioning where in the Bible it was written.

If you want i can list 44 prophecies that were written by the Prophets of the Old Testament that Jesus fullfilled...

Should i open another thread since this is off the topic? :duck:

IceTea

28-10-04, 07:56 AM

The Four wives option

I know it has been discussed before and i saw that many women didn't agree that that part of the Quran is for today, and alot did agree. But if the Quran is written for today then that still applies right?

That doesn't prove anything, because as you can see in today world the four wive options provide the solution against women getting spinster, divorced, prevent adultry and causes a balance of men/women ratio in the society. As you can see it's a safe door to prevent a lot of society problems.

IceTea

28-10-04, 08:02 AM

I never said Jesus name was mentioned in the Old Testament, Omani King said Ahmed's name was mentioned as "The Prophet" and i was just questioning where in the Bible it was written.

It's stated in the Quran that prophet Mohammed PBUH mentioned in the Torah and the Gospel:

Those who follow the messenger, the Prophet who can neither read nor write, whom they will find described in the Torah and the Gospel (which are) with them. He will enjoin on them that which is right and forbid them that which is wrong. He will make lawful for them all good things and prohibit for them only the foul; and he will relieve them of their burden and the fetters that they used to wear. Then those who believe in him, and honour him, and help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him: they are the successful.

IceTea

28-10-04, 10:13 AM

If you believe the universe was created in six days,

What is your objection about that? if Allah want anything will say be and it will be.

stars are missiles thrown at devils,

It's not stars but a flaming fire.

And that we used to sit in some of the sitting-places thereof to steal a hearing, but he who would (try to) listen now would find a flame lying in wait for him:

salt water and fresh water don’t mix,

We have discussed this issue before and you can refer the old thread for details.

humans were created from a clump of dirt, bones were developed before muscles in fetal development,

what dirt??

This is the process:

Then We made the sperm into a clot of congealed blood; then of that clot We made a (foetus) lump; then we made out of that lump bones and clothed the bones with flesh; then we developed out of it another creature. So blessed be Allah, the best to create!

Are you suggesting that bones developed after flesh?

Omani King

28-10-04, 11:05 AM

yeah its dirt icetea!!!
coz the scientist realized that every seven years ur body completly changes because a human is affected by his surronding's e.g. dirt mud!!!

Omani King

28-10-04, 11:17 AM

Cetacea

28-10-04, 11:30 AM

the quran was immediatly written from the 1st time Prophet Muhamad says the verse!!!
The Quran was written years after the Prophet had died. Is there any evidence that it was truly Mohammad’s words?
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/compilationbrief.html

CrazyReD

28-10-04, 11:34 AM

It was written on bones and leafes but not collected
it was collected in one book later

IceTea

28-10-04, 11:40 AM

Cetacea, Quran is protected by Allah from abuse, that is why it remains one version up to date.

As CR said it was written and memorized by many "sahaba" at the prophet PBUH time and latter collected in one book.

Omani King

28-10-04, 11:48 AM

thanx for explainin it CR and IceTea :D !!

IceTea

28-10-04, 11:55 AM

You are welcome OK :)

Still waiting for Cetacea to answer:

Are you suggesting that bones developed after flesh?

And I will add to that what is your evidence?

Omani King

28-10-04, 01:11 PM

yeah ICET. there r evidence in the quran, but i forget where it was :D !!!!
ill try to find it then post it!!

Omani King

28-10-04, 01:26 PM

surah 2.ayah 259. Or (take) the similitude of one who passed by a hamlet, all in ruins to its roofs. He said: "Oh! how shall Allah bring it (ever) to life, after (this) its death?" but Allah caused him to die for a hundred years, then raised him up (again). He said: "How long didst thou tarry (thus)?" He said: (Perhaps) a day or part of a day." He said: "Nay, thou hast tarried thus a hundred years; but look at thy food and thy drink; they show no signs of age; and look at thy donkey: And that We may make of thee a sign unto the people, Look further at the bones, how We bring them together and clothe them with flesh." When this was shown clearly to him, he said: "I know that Allah hath power over all things."

here is ur prooof ICET :D !!!

IceTea

28-10-04, 01:52 PM

OK, I was asking Cetacea to prove the opposite :rolleyes:

DorellaM

28-10-04, 06:24 PM

That doesn't prove anything, because as you can see in today world the four wive options provide the solution against women getting spinster, divorced, prevent adultry and causes a balance of men/women ratio in the society. As you can see it's a safe door to prevent a lot of society problems.

That may be the case today, but in any verses in the Quran where this is written, i don't see where Muhammed wrote this law for this reason. When he spoke this law, does he give a reason that i'm not seeing?? :lost:

It's stated in the Quran that prophet Mohammed PBUH mentioned in the Torah and the Gospel:

I'm merley asking someone to point out to me where it is written in the BIBLE, that's all.

because it wasnt written till 400 A.D

http://www.carm.org/bible/biblewhen.htm

amo_l_oman

28-10-04, 07:45 PM

May i ask you something Dore: did you read at least once the translation of the whole Quran?

DorellaM

28-10-04, 08:45 PM

What?? I haven't even read the whole Bible...why would i read the whole Quran. Who better to ask these questions to than muslims correct? I would think that questions would be welcomed by muslims, that way they can understand how a "non-beleiver" thinks and then go research and in turn learn more about their religion. I feel honored when someone asks me about the Bible cause it prompts me to learn more about it myself.

I have studied the issues in Islam that i have questions about. Have you read the whole Bible?

Cetacea

28-10-04, 08:50 PM

What is your objection about that? if Allah want anything will say be and it will be.
The Bible also says that everything was created in six days, plants and animals were created before the Sun, and the Sun and the Moon are two light sources, one to rule the night and one to rule the day. The overwhelming scientific evidence paints quite a different picture - the big bang happened ~14 billion years ago, the Earth is about 4.6 billion years old, the Moon is 150 million years younger than the earth, and humans didn’t come to existence until ~6 million years ago. I’m not here to argue who is right who is wrong. I was merely pointing out that if one believes the 6-day creation theory, then one should have no problem accepting the Quran.

It's not stars but a flaming fire.
Another translation error? What was the Arabic word used in that sentence?

then we made out of that lump bones and clothed the bones with flesh; then we developed out of it another creature. So blessed be Allah, the best to create!

Are you suggesting that bones developed after flesh?
By examine the specimens we know that muscles develop before bones. Your notion of flesh clothing the bones is laughable. But feel free to ignore facts and believe whatever you like. I'm not here to argue with you.

Cetacea

28-10-04, 08:58 PM

It was written on bones and leafes but not collected
it was collected in one book later
I've read that before, but I've always wondered where that information came from. Has anyone found any of these bones and leaves? Is there any solid evidence beyond mere hearsay to prove that the Quran was authentic?

amo_l_oman

28-10-04, 09:07 PM

I have studied the issues in Islam that i have questions about. Have you read the whole Bible?
Honestly no, just those parts our teachers used to make us study at school and this when i was a catholic. I didn't even bother myself to do it, i can understand what you mean.
I asked you if you tried to read the translation of the Holy Book entirely, cause before thinking of converting ( am an italian Muslim since almost 3 years now) i was just curious about it and same as you and other non Muslims, i focused my attention on some arguments reading only some verses or some surahs plus articles on net and so on, to satisfy my knowledge but it was just a partial way to fullfill my interest.
Now i understand is difficult with our busy life to dedicate our time to read the whole Book but your questions remind me that period in which i used to jump here and there and was difficult to have a clear idea and picture of Islam, moreover some issues sounded really absurd and confused.
I don't wanna say that i understood everything today just cause i have a certificate of Muslim, but sometimes is important to take in consideration many factors to understand an issue.
Hope you didn't get offended from my question, it was simply to clarify my point :)

Scorpio27

28-10-04, 09:17 PM

Thanks Amo for your nice post. I never new you are a converted Muslim. Thanks for sharing brother.

I learned one thing surely from your post that " I/we should study the whole thoroughly before arguing"

If i want to talk on Islam I have to learn a lot about other mono religions.

Thanks a lot.

DorellaM

28-10-04, 09:32 PM

Not a problem , and a good question at that. I guess i will just have to read the whole Quran.....but unfortunately that might have to come after i read the whole Bible :D

DorellaM

28-10-04, 09:33 PM

IceTea

28-10-04, 10:02 PM

That may be the case today, but in any verses in the Quran where this is written, i don't see where Muhammed wrote this law for this reason. When he spoke this law, does he give a reason that i'm not seeing?? :lost:

First of all the the law is made by Allah and not the prophet PBUH, and second thing it's open option, meaning it's allowed for men to marry more than one wife with one condition only which is treating the wives in justice and be fair to all.

I'm merley asking someone to point out to me where it is written in the BIBLE, that's all.

If you can provide the original version of the Bible as revealed by God to Jesus PBUH then you will find where it's stated I believe.

IceTea

28-10-04, 10:08 PM

Another translation error? What was the Arabic word used in that sentence?

Shihab or shuhub "شهاب" or "شهب".

By examine the specimens we know that muscles develop before bones. Your notion of flesh clothing the bones is laughable. But feel free to ignore facts and believe whatever you like. I'm not here to argue with you.
[/quote]

The sequence of stages mentioned in Surah (23:14) Then We made the seed a clot, then We made the clot a lump of flesh, then We made (in) the lump of flesh bones, then We clothed the bones with flesh, then We caused it to grow into another creation, so blessed be Allah, the best of the creators. is strikingly accurate. "This verse states that out of the chewed lump, bones are made which are clothed with muscles." Dr. Moore relates the conclusion of modern science: "After the chewed-like appearance, bones develop which are soon clothed with muscles."

A hadith too is found to be remarkably accurate. The hadith states that God sends an angel to the developing child "to create its hearing, vision, skin, flesh and bones." "The ears and the eyes begin to form in the fourth week", says Dr. Moore, "and are clearly visible at six weeks, 42 days after the zygote or nutfa forms. Noting that in the hadith the angel asks God whether the child is male or female, Dr. Moore points out that the sex of the child is not distinguishable at this stage. Males and fema1es look alike at this stage and become clearly distinguishable only in the 12th week. This he has clearly documented with the help of a diagram culled from his book the Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology, 3rd edn., 1982.

http://members.tripod.com/quranscience/Quran1.html

I will ask you a question by common logic, when a person want to build a house does he first put the cement or the steel structure?

Omani King

28-10-04, 10:37 PM

I will ask you a question by common logic, when a person want to build a house does he first put the cement or the steel structure?
good 1 ICET :D !!
i think the cement is first(im being sarcastic), dont u think so cetacea??!!! :P !!!

Cetacea

28-10-04, 10:58 PM

I will ask you a question by common logic, when a person want to build a house does he first put the cement or the steel structure?
You are comparing human embryo development to building a house? Sigh… posts like this make me wonder what they teach you in science classes. :no: I suggest that you read up on Embryology before posting again on this subject. King, same goes with you.

Omani King

28-10-04, 11:03 PM

Omani King

28-10-04, 11:08 PM

and DORE i just knew that in the quran ALLAH gives an example of a human's book of life by a digital book(it can hold a vey large amount of info in it ;) )!!!!
it says "kitaboon marqoom" which is in these days translation is a digital book!!
and the translation says sumthin like a numbered book I KNOW but in arabic MARQOOM means digital!!!!!
isnt this enough info to prove that the quran is forever?!!

Pineapple Thief

28-10-04, 11:09 PM

I've read that before, but I've always wondered where that information came from. Has anyone found any of these bones and leaves? Is there any solid evidence beyond mere hearsay to prove that the Quran was authentic?

The concept of faith. I'll admit, you'll never accept the Quran without the slightest faith that it may be true. Faith is something hard to understand for people who dont have any: I have lots of experience with hardcore athiests. No, theres no evidence that its 'authentic', or at least the type of evidence you're looking for, thats where faith comes in. When you nitpick at every little aspect, you're going to have unanswered questions. If you automatically all of these unanswered questions are loopholes, then of course you're going to reject it. Its about accepting. Once you accept that you may be wrong, and approach the topic with a 'truly' open mind, and not a falsely open one, you might start to understand.
Ill admit, its difficult. Your culture is way different from the arab culture now, muchless the arab culture in the time of the quran. Some of the things in the Quran seem inplausible! But for an outsider to accept the quran, he or she must drop all preconceived notions of wrong or right, and try to accept things for what they are. Only then can you start to understand, and possibly delve deeper.

Good luck :)

Scorpio27

28-10-04, 11:09 PM

Not a problem , and a good question at that. I guess i will just have to read the whole Quran.....but unfortunately that might have to come after i read the whole Bible :D

Sure Dore, I appreciate. You should read the whole of your religion first then Study other ones.

I feel ashamed to say that being a Muslim by Birth, I know very little about Quran.

We should first know the matter completely before we can comment on it.

I am not Fanatic but I found Quran far better then others as far as I knew the religions. I better study seriously before participating :(

DorellaM

28-10-04, 11:13 PM

First of all the the law is made by Allah and not the prophet PBUH, and second thing it's open option, meaning it's allowed for men to marry more than one wife with one condition only which is treating the wives in justice and be fair to all.

If you can provide the original version of the Bible as revealed by God to Jesus PBUH then you will find where it's stated I believe.

I did provide that link above to the original version, but if you want to look at the original version, its in hebrew. So you might have to settle for an english or arabic version just as i have to settle for a english version of the Quran. And no i have not seen that verse, that is why i am asking you. That is a big claim in the Quran so i would think you would know where to find it cause i can't find it.

DorellaM

28-10-04, 11:22 PM

isnt this enough info to prove that the quran is forever?!!

See, i wasn't saying that it wasn't forever. My question came because i saw how some of the women here disagreed about the 4 wives thing so i asked out of curiosity. Infact i listed that i thought that if it was inspired by God, that it would be forever.

Pineapple Thief

28-10-04, 11:28 PM

Not only the women disagree, a lot of the men disagree, since the verse continues, '..but if you cannot treat them fairly, and surely you cant not, then do not take more than one.' Something like that. I dont remember it in arabic, but I remember the meaning.

Thus its a debate even amongst muslims. These are not issues that are important in Islam. To understand Islam, one should seek to understand its basic principles and the like first.

IRONY

28-10-04, 11:36 PM

And can you tell me, in the thousand prophecies regarding the coming of Jesus in the Old Testament, where Jesus is mentioned by name?

I am not talking about the title 'Messiah', which is translated as 'Christ', but the name 'Jesus' itself? Is there a single Prophecy where it says the name of the Massiah to come will be "Jesus"?

Once you give me the answer, then I will tell you were the coming of Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) was already prophesized in the Bible...
....

As I was reading you post one of my friends entered my room and was reading it with me then she ran to get her bible and asked me to post back this to you.
Mathew chapter 1,verse 21 says: he will give birth to a son and you must call his name jesus for he will save his people from thier sins. :wave:

DorellaM

28-10-04, 11:43 PM

I'm sorry Irony but that is in the New Testament :shy:

Cetacea

29-10-04, 12:17 AM

Cetacea,
dont you have logical thinking?!!!
tell me how accurate can they see the eymbro inside the pregnant women's stomach??
i mean i know its very accurate by 99.9% but how do they know what forms first?!!
How did doctors and scientists a century ago know for sure that soft tissue developed before bone ossification (hardening of the bones) when modern diagnostic tools were not available? Hint: miscarriages, aborted fetuses.

I was going to answer your question then I thought it would be nice if you actually do some learning yourself. Here are a couple of sites to get you started. http://www.visembryo.com/baby/stage18.html and http://embryology.med.unsw.edu.au/wwwhuman/Stages/carnegie.htm

Cetacea

29-10-04, 12:33 AM

The concept of faith. I'll admit, you'll never accept the Quran without the slightest faith that it may be true.
Fair enough. You choose to believe something that can’t be proven while I choose to believe something that can. It is perfectly fine with me. I only have a problem when people make statements that clearly contradicts with observable facts, for example, “flesh clothed the bones.”

When you nitpick at every little aspect, you're going to have unanswered questions. If you automatically all of these unanswered questions are loopholes, then of course you're going to reject it. Its about accepting.
In other words accept what you’ve been told and don’t question.

Once you accept that you may be wrong, and approach the topic with a 'truly' open mind, and not a falsely open one, you might start to understand.
It seems that you are asking me to be “open-minded” and accept that I might be wrong while you insist that you are right without providing any facts or evidence to support your position. My question to you is that do you accept the possibility that you might be wrong?

Anyway, I do appreciate your post even though I disagree with you.

amo_l_oman

29-10-04, 01:20 AM

I thought Amo was a girl... :lost:
I am but all think am M dunno why :lost: will open a thread one day :rolleyes:

Pineapple Thief

29-10-04, 01:46 AM

Fair enough. You choose to believe something that can’t be proven while I choose to believe something that can. It is perfectly fine with me. I only have a problem when people make statements that clearly contradicts with observable facts, for example, “flesh clothed the bones.”

In other words accept what you’ve been told and don’t question.

It seems that you are asking me to be “open-minded” and accept that I might be wrong while you insist that you are right without providing any facts or evidence to support your position. My question to you is that do you accept the possibility that you might be wrong?

Anyway, I do appreciate your post even though I disagree with you.

No no, you've gotten me wrong.
1) I choose to believe something that cant be proven, and you choose to believe something that can be proven. Do you believe in nature? Then your statement is true. Do you believe in science? Then it can be proven. Do you believe that there is no God? Then it cant be proven. Simply put - without a 'sign', it cant be proven. You may like to apply the strawman argument and say 'well, do you believe in Santa?' or something similar, but you know as well as I that doesnt apply. The existance of a 'God' simply cannot be proved or disproved in any way we can fathom, because our thought processes are limited to things we understand, while the concept of a higher being is beyond our comprehension.

In other words accept what your told and dont question. In other words, yes, except those would be the wrong words. You misunderstand the concept of faith. What you refer to is blind faith. Islam asks you to question, in order to better understand. Having faith is like opening the door, its up to you to walk through. Cliche, but true. Its hard to describe to someone, this faith concept, but its there.

Yes I accept the possibility that I am wrong. I accept that there may be no such thing as Allah, that maybe there is no God, and that the world runs as is. While obviously I dont think its the case, I accept it might be. Other muslims dont (many of them anyway), and I have been criticised for this, but speaking personally, I accept this. I also accept that other religions may be correct, while mine is wrong. Once again, its not my belief though, but I accept it, and people have criticised me for that.

This discussion is getting interesting :)

IceTea

29-10-04, 08:44 AM

You are comparing human embryo development to building a house? Sigh… posts like this make me wonder what they teach you in science classes. :no: I suggest that you read up on Embryology before posting again on this subject. King, same goes with you.

I'm expecting an answer not a lecture!

IceTea

29-10-04, 08:47 AM

IAnd no i have not seen that verse, that is why i am asking you.

If you didn't find it then it means you are not refering to the first version as revealed by God.

That is a big claim in the Quran so i would think you would know where to find it cause i can't find it.

It's not a claim, it's a fact.

DorellaM

29-10-04, 06:10 PM

It's not a claim, it's a fact.

If it's a fact then prove it. Infact, just name the book it's in.

Cetacea

29-10-04, 11:35 PM

No no, you've gotten me wrong.
1) I choose to believe something that cant be proven, and you choose to believe something that can be proven. Do you believe in nature? Then your statement is true. Do you believe in science? Then it can be proven. Do you believe that there is no God?
What you said was almost correct except you made the wrong assumption that I'm an atheist. I’m an agnostic which means I do accept the possibility that there is a higher power.

Cetacea

29-10-04, 11:39 PM

I will ask you a question by common logic, when a person want to build a house does he first put the cement or the steel structure?[/i]
Reading what you said about concrete and steel structure, I came up with this image of a full-grown fetal skeleton in the womb, a pretty good scene for a horror movie. It IS almost Halloween you know. LOL. :D

http://science.nhmccd.edu/biol/skeleton/awhole.jpg

http://science.nhmccd.edu/biol/skeleton/fetal.htm

IceTea

30-10-04, 12:22 PM

I feel sorry for you if you think it's in that way :rolleyes:

Still you didn't answer the question and you are just running in circles :)

Cetacea

02-11-04, 11:47 AM

I feel sorry for you if you think it's in that way :rolleyes:
You said "This verse states that out of the chewed lump, bones are made which are clothed with muscles." Why don't you tell us which way we should think?

Still you didn't answer the question and you are just running in circles :)
What I said wasn’t anything complicated, but it does take an IQ of higher than room temperature to get it. Sorry that you are still clueless. My basic point is that the reality is the opposite of what the Quran describes.

I will ask you a question by common logic, when a person want to build a house does he first put the cement or the steel structure?
When you build a house, you use concrete which is a mixture of cement, gravel, sand and water. Cement and water alone gives you a crumbly mess with no compression strength whatsoever. It’s understandable that you are clueless about Embryology since you are not a biologist, but as an engineer, you should know the difference between cement and concrete, a rather basic concept. I wonder if any of the houses you built are still standing. :laugh:

Omani King

02-11-04, 01:17 PM

heey Cetacea i asked my BIO teacher about this he told me that the bones form b4 the muscles!!!
he told me that if there were muscles they are useless so they are not called muscles!!
an example is is the cow or goat meat u eat called muscles?!! no its called flesh (it is formed from muscles but they are useless muscles!!).

Don Khaled

02-11-04, 05:56 PM

To be more specific on my original question:

The Four wives option

The beauty of Islam, as some jewish scholar said once (don't have a source for this, but ignore the jewish part, and focus on the other part of this), that it is based on contracts.

According to Islamic law, the woman has the full right, without anyone interfering in her decission, to write a contract with her future husband, before marriage. Meaning, she can specify "I have the full right to divorce my husband, with no questions, if he marries someone after me." Now, she might also say "I have the full right to divorce him, if I find out that he married before me or he still is married to someone else".

Now, why would a woman complain about Islam itself, when such right had been given to her? It is MEN whom abuse these rules. Muslim men do NOT represent Islam, generally speaking.

Now, why did Islam allow maximium 4 wives? Islam wants to be realistic. It knows that at some point of life, there could be alot of wars, which would leave behind allot of widows whom can not take care of themselves. Now, the man can help the woman without marrying her, but as God said in the verse "And if you fear that you cannot act equitably towards orphans, then marry such women as seem good to you, two and three and four; but if you fear that you will not do justice (between them), then (marry) only one or what your right hands possess; this is more proper, that you may not deviate from the right course.", if you are worried that you might NOT be able to help her because of such and such, then marry her.

Let's focus on the bold part of the verse itself. If the man, can not fairly treat his wives (money wise, staying with them aproximately the same time, and so on), then he should NOT marry that much (upto 4).

If the marriage between the husband and wife is going to be destroyed when the man is going to marry another woman, then he better think twice before the damage even starts, because he will be held account on such thing if his wife had made such contract.

Another small example. In societies where OLD men marry YOUNG women; when you look at the pyrimid of age vs population. You will find out that young people within the age of 16-25 are more in amount than 45-55. So when such society goes with such marrigae (old man to young women), then you will find more young women throw around with no wives. Now, is it wrong to for an old man to marry a young woman? NOPE, nothing wrong with that. So if such case happens, the why leave all these young women around? So God, gave muslims a more realistic solution and told them "Marry upto 4". So muslims, can fix such solutions.

Again, I can go forever giving other examples, but I am kind of tight with time here.

Islam is a way of life. It gives you all possible solutions when such and such happens. It does NOT tighten you with such rules, such as marrying ONLY one women, when it is un-realistic in the cases mentioned above.

Think about what I said above very carefully, and don't just jump to conclusions because many, usually, forget the main points of marrying UPTO 4 women, and jump back to the question "Why allow marriage of 4 women?".

At the end of the day, Allah knows best, and because he is the creator of us, he knows us better than we might think we do.

Don Khaled

02-11-04, 06:02 PM

I guess i will just have to read the whole Quran...

I do not recommend you to go reading the whole quran like how you read the bible. Because the bible is more like sayings and stories, which I could say it is equivelent to hadith. In order to UNDERSTAND the quran, you have to read explinations of each verse. There is such a verse which says "Do not take the jews and christians as friends" (that is not the original verse, but I wrote the meaning". If you read it like that, you will think that muslims find themselves superior on christians/jews and don't take them as friends. While, if you read the explination (intereptiation, how that is spelled), you will know that it specifies SPECIFIC jews and christians, BUT not all.

I hope you got my point. So go ahead and read the quran if you want to, some verses are straight forward, but some are should be explained by Muslim scholars.

Cetacea

02-11-04, 08:01 PM

heey Cetacea i asked my BIO teacher about this he told me that the bones form b4 the muscles!!!
he told me that if there were muscles they are useless so they are not called muscles!!
Time to get a new biology teacher. :D

an example is is the cow or goat meat u eat called muscles?!! A piece of steak is mostly muscles with some fat and connective tissue on the edges.

no its called flesh (it is formed from muscles but they are useless muscles!!). Flesh is formed from muscles but is useless??? Can you define useless muscles for me? Sad if that's what they teach you in schools.

http://answering-islam.org.uk/Quran/Science/embryo.html

The final stage of human development which the Qur'an describes is the creation of bones, and the clothing of bones with flesh. However, according to modern embryologists including Prof. Moore, the tissue from which bone originates, known as mesoderm, is the same tissue as that from which muscle ("flesh") develops [17]. Thus bone and muscles begin to develop simultaneously, rather than sequentially. Whereas however most of the muscle tissue that we have is laid down before birth, bones continue to develop and calcify (strengthen with calcium) right into one's teenage years. So far from bones being clothed with flesh, it would be more accurate if the Qur'an had said that muscles started to develop at the same time as bones, but completed their development earlier. The idea that bones are clothed with flesh is not only scientifically completely false, but is directly copied from the ancient Greek doctor Galen...
...

It seems that not even Prof. Moore is sufficiently convinced by the scientific "facts" in the Qur'an to risk his reputation as a highly respected professor of anatomy in the medical establishment. The Islamic edition of his textbook is not available even in the British Library or the US Library of Congress, let alone other medical libraries in Western countries [54], presumably because he is aware that not only do the Islamic contributions in it contradict known science, but they also contradict what he has written in the standard version of his textbook. And ironically in the bibliography for the first chapter, "A history of embryology", in both the standard and Islamic versions he refers to Needham's important work on the history of embryology [55]. Needham however is unimpressed with the Arabic claims of embryology and after writing almost 60 pages about ancient Greek, Indian and Egyptian embryology he dismisses the entire Arabic tradition in less than one page, concluding that "Arabic science, so justly famed for its successes in certain fields such as optics and astronomy, was not of great help to embryology". After listing some of the verses in the Qur'an about embryology he dismisses them as merely "a seventh-century echo of Aristotle and the Ayer-veda" [56], in other words a mixture of Greek and ancient Indian teachings. In the most recent (1998) edition of The Developing Human, Moore also directs his readers to a book which contains another essay by Basim Musallam, which again points out how similar the Qur'anic science of embryology was to that of Galen, and how this close association was never questioned by the ancient Muslim scholars [57].
In conclusion then there is not a single statement contained in the Qur'an relating to modern embryology that was not well known through direct observation by the ancient Greek and Indian physicians many centuries before the Qur'an was written. Morever, much of what the Qur'an actually does say about embryology is scientifically inaccurate. The ancient physicians' works were translated into Syriac in the century preceeding Muhammed, and were therefore accessible to non-Greek speakers. We know that one of the Companions of the Prophet was a doctor who trained at the very same medical school that the Greek translations were kept and taught at. We even know that at least one of the verses which describes embryology, sura 23:14 contains the words of another of Muhammed's companions. We are forced to conclude that, far from proving the alleged divine credentials of the Qur'an, its embryological statements actually provide further convincing evidence for its human origins.

Omani King

03-11-04, 05:25 AM

yeah i know that the peice of steak is mostly made of muscles but u dont call them muscles!!
what i meant is tht the muscles are useless AT THAT TIME not ALWAYS!

Cetacea

03-11-04, 07:11 PM

yeah i know that the peice of steak is mostly made of muscles but u dont call them muscles!!
what i meant is tht the muscles are useless AT THAT TIME not ALWAYS!
Sorry to see that you are having trouble posting coherently. It has to be the mutant Omani cows that have muscles but are useless so are not called muscles, but are formed from flesh, useless, at that time, but not always … :rolleyes: This discussion is obviously over your head. Go get some sleep and get back to reading cartoons.

IceTea

06-11-04, 09:56 AM

What I said wasn’t anything complicated, but it does take an IQ of higher than room temperature to get it. Sorry that you are still clueless. My basic point is that the reality is the opposite of what the Quran describes.

Ok so you are saying the opposite, meaning the flesh first then bones no matter how the gap between the two, right? Ok then why don't you create a living creature based on your concept?

When you build a house, you use concrete which is a mixture of cement, gravel, sand and water. Cement and water alone gives you a crumbly mess with no compression strength whatsoever. It’s understandable that you are clueless about Embryology since you are not a biologist, but as an engineer, you should know the difference between cement and concrete, a rather basic concept. I wonder if any of the houses you built are still standing. :laugh:

I know you use concrete but you will need steel also to withstand the increasd load, or you are suggesting you don't need steel? and I'm not civil engineer BTW :).

Desert_Sloath

09-11-04, 03:25 AM

For example, alot of Christians think that the Bible was written for it's time and should not be taken "word for word"

and when did they :alot of Christians come to realise that ? i`i`i mean after 1945 onwards or before ?

.

Desert_Sloath

09-11-04, 03:38 AM

We know that one of the Companions of the Prophet was a doctor who trained at the very same medical school that the Greek translations were kept and taught at.

http://answering-islam.org.uk/Quran/Science/embryo.html

Who was this Companion ? :help:

.

amo_l_oman

09-11-04, 10:09 AM

Who was this Companion ? :help:

.
<strong>
According to Muslim historians, especially Ibn Abi Usaybia and al-Qifti [37], the most celebrated early graduate of Jundishapur was a doctor named al Harith Ibn Kalada, who was an older contemporary of Muhammed. "He was born probably about the middle of the sixth century, at Ta'if, in the tribe of Banu Thaqif. He traveled through Yemen and then Persia where he received his education in the medical sciences at the great medical school of Jundi-Shapur and thus was intimately acquainted with the medical teachings of Aristotle, Hippocrates and Galen." [38]

He became famous partly as a result of a consultation with King Chosroes [39]. Later he became a companion of the Prophet Muhammed himself, and according to the Muslim medical traditions Muhammed actually sought medical advice from him [40]. He may even have been a relative of the Prophet and his "teachings undoubtedly influenced the latter" [i.e., Muhammed] [41]. "Such medical knowledge as Muhammed possessed, he may well have acquired from Haris bin Kalda [sic], an Arab, who is said to have left the desert for a while and gone to Jundi Shapur to study medicine...On his return Haris settled in Mecca and became the foremost physician of the Arabs of the desert. Whether he ever embraced Islam is uncertain, but this did not prevent the Prophet from sending his sick friends to consult him." [42]</strong>

.