View Full Version : sheikhs in mecca... going overboard?
*NK 105*
06-10-04, 11:28 PM
I'd just like to share a worrying experience.. I went for 3omra for the first time in a group with my school, and so all of us wore 3abayas when we did the 6awaaf. and wherever we went in saudia we went around with loose 3abayas and our la7aafs covering our heads with no hair showing from underneath.. now one of the nights that we were there, my friend and i were doing 6awaaf, and we would pass some of the sheikhs there, and they would tell us (in arabic) "cover ur head woman!! cover ur face!! the rasools wife covered her face!!" and both of us had our la7aafs on properly, with no hair showing at all.. and we found it strange them wanting us to cover our FACES, as from our knowledge it wasn't written anywhere that women of islam should cover their FACES.. just their heads.. but then these people were shuyookh of mecca.. they all wore special clothing and tags to let us know that they were shuyookh of mecca. They represent islam more than anybody else in the current world, and there they were telling us to cover our faces!! :( to be honest i felt extremely confused after that.. and EACH time we went for 6awaaf.. different shuyookh (wearing the same robes with tags) would tell us the same thing over and over again! and when they would talk to us, they wouldnt look at us.. they would always look at the floor...
so what do u think of all of this?... thoughts?
I agree with you it's sad that such important personalities do such stuff instead of sitting you girls and trying to teach you or convince that this is wrong and this is right they scream out at you! WHO WILL EVER WANT TO LEARN LIKE THAT! Even if that person was doing something wrong they would nto b convinced becuz of the rude way they were talked to! :fire:
Am really dissapointed and shocked :sorry: ! Them as shaikhs should sit poeple down and explain to them in a nice way and NOT EMMBARESS THEM! and there is a 7adeeth also i do not remmember it though saying you should not emmbaress your fellow brother/sister you should take them a side and explain! and YET a SHAIKH does :bang: .
I personally never saw anywhere or heard of such thing in Islam that it is a Fareetha or wajib to cover your face! PLUS if the rasool did something it doesn't not mean WE ALL HAVE TO FOLLOW sometimes rasool did somethings for reasons. And if the rasool's wife/daughters covered thier faces then perhaps it was the TRADITION to do so...i have realised these days so many people tend to confuse between tradition and islam they tend to mix them both up. AND THATS WRONG. :angre:
Some of my friends who are boys think that ABAYA IS A MUST!!! who said so!!!! Islam did not say women have to wear abayas it just stated she has to cover her body in something loose not fit!! AND not transperant! and to also cover her hair! ISLAM DID NOT SAY WOMEN SHOULD BE WEARING BLACK DRESSES (ABAYAS) . But in Oman and other countries they wear abayas cuz of tradition oh well i guess am getting a bit of the topic but i was just trying to explain the difference between traditions and Islam!
:wave:
*NK 105*
06-10-04, 11:52 PM
ehehe yeah i get what ur trying to say... it's just that we wern't doing anything wrong at the time.. and yet a line of sheikhs were telling us to cover our faces...
Arabian Princess
07-10-04, 12:06 AM
according to my knowledge, you shouldnt be covering your face when you are doing 6awaf actually!!
*NK 105*
07-10-04, 12:15 AM
thats what i thought too!!! but we wern't doing 3omra at the time.. just 6awaaf..
yet these shuyookh were telling us otherwise!!
Arabian Princess
07-10-04, 12:31 AM
السؤال(19)
حجاب المرأة هل يشمل تغطية الوجه أم يكفي تغطية الشعر فقط ؟
الجواب :
اختلف العلماء في الوجه والكفين هل هما داخلان في عورة المرأة ، أو غير داخلين في عورتها ، وهذا الاختلاف منذ قديم ، منذ عهد الصحابة رضوان الله عليهم ومن بعدهم من التابعين ومن بعدهم ، والذي نذهب إليه أن الوجه غير عورة وكذلك الكفان من غير عورة المرأة ، والدليل على ذلك أن المرأة مطالبة بأن تكشف عن وجهها عندما تكون محرمة وبطبيعة الحال هذا إن لم تكن عند الرجال الأجانب ، وهذا دليل على أن الوجه غير عورة إذ لا يتعبد بكشف شيئاً من العورة ، لا يكون كشف شيء من العورة عبادة ، ولكن مع ذلك عندما تكون خائفة من الفتنة فعليها ستر وجهها لسد ذريعة الفساد ، لا لأجل أن الوجه عورة لأجل ستر العورة ، وإنما ذلك لأجل سد ذريعة الفساد ، و وذرائع الفساد يجب سدها ، والله تعالى أعلم
it says that there is a contrversery between scholars whether the face should be covered or not, however, he goes that its not a must because she is asked not to cover her face when she is at Umrah, and when you dont cover something while praying it means its not a awrah. but if the women thought its better to stop "fitna" (dont know how to translate that word ) then its good.
if somone can translare it better it would be great :)
CrazyReD
07-10-04, 02:26 AM
first I don't think they should be wearing tags we are all equal
and I have no idea why they'd say that in a forcing manner
they are not shyookh mecca, they call them "El-mu6aw3a", some of those men had bad history and they take bunch of those in jail's train them to be mu6aw3a (i know this from a good source) and then they go tell and FORCE actually people to do what they want you to do, they can also bit you if you were so ignorant ....etc
In 6awaf like arby said you don't have to cover your face, but out side of that everywhere they want you too because most of them in saudia interpret the aya about veil to cover everything....etc.
Don't be confused they mix tradition ALOT with religion, you did it right and you did nothing wrong and 7ajan maqboolan inshalllah...
Alah kareem, its saaad how they can extreeeeemly cross the lines.
according to my knowledge, you shouldnt be covering your face when you are doing 6awaf actually!!
That's exactly what I thought after reading the first lines of her post.
they are not shyookh mecca, they call them "El-mu6aw3a", some of those men had bad history and they take bunch of those in jail's train them to be mu6aw3a (i know this from a good source) and then they go tell and FORCE actually people to do what they want you to do, they can also bit you if you were so ignorant ....etc
In 6awaf like arby said you don't have to cover your face, but out side of that everywhere they want you too because most of them in saudia interpret the aya about veil to cover everything....etc.
Don't be confused they mix tradition ALOT with religion, you did it right and you did nothing wrong and 7ajan maqboolan inshalllah...
Alah kareem, its saaad how they can extreeeeemly cross the lines.
Najah,
An educated woman such as yourself, needs to distinguish the thin line between “Chit chats” and discussions. You almost sound like politicians who bring up stories with the final knock out line “ I have a good source” come forth with statistics, documented events.
It reminds me of the interview aired last night on al Jazeerah, and I was highly disappointed with ahmad mansoor, the host, when shaikh Ayeth asked : do you have statistics to back what are accusing scholars of ?
And Ahmad’s final blow was : “ heya 7agah zy kedah 3ayzah isbaat?” “a thing known to the world like that needs a proof?”
Well hate to bring up the bad news : YES!
Even if those men ex-cons are now what they are, does that mean we shouldn’t give them credit for what they are doing? Are you aware of how many people visit the house of God? How many mistakes are made when the Ka’aba is few feet away! Yes there is a negative side to everything, but only a wise person would look at the whole picture to see if there is more goodness coming out of it.
It is your duty to not think ill of your muslim brothers and sisters. Find them excuses, we do that to our loved ones “finding them excuses if they did something stupid” They see a lot of people, they have been out in the sun for too long, maybe his son is sick, maybe he just got divorced. They are human beings like us. “emotions and stuff”
Thirdly and lastly, regarding looking at your face! Yes I understand where you are coming from and thinking this is bad manner. Have you stopped to think, that might be attractive to him and he shouldn’t be looking at you! If you were young and there is no way for him to find you attractive, but then he started looking at women all the time it would cause more damage and defy the purpose!
I hope I was clear enough.
*NK 105*
07-10-04, 02:04 PM
As it was my first 3omrah i must say it was a sight to see, and i was amazed to see the ka3ba, i was taken aback and couldn't believe my eyes for quite a while!
Anyways, the thing is that it wasn't just one shaykh.. each time we went round there would be several of them at each corner.. and we had around 8-10 of them saying the same thing!! Although they were telling us to "istiry 3awrataki" ...
Another shaykh told one of the girls that her 3abaya was too tight!!! In my opinion it was lose, you couldn't see her figure in it.. I don't believe in tight abayas as it defeats the whole purpose, and i didnt think it tight.. but maybe to him it was.. i dont know..
Another thing was that when we went into the mosque there were women checking our bags! im not sure what they were checking for.. but there would be a check point.. does anybody know what they might be have been looking for?
Arabian Princess
07-10-04, 03:51 PM
Raed, I agree with you that we shouldnt take credits from those mutawaa who are first doing thier job, are trying to Ihdi people .. .. but I think they should be more considerate of people around them. Almost more than half of the muslim world dont consider Niqab as something compulsory and when they go and work thier best to feel focused they get these comments.
I think they should be more understanding .. and if they think these women are sinning, there are other more than this inconsiderate direct way of telling women that they are fitna!!
they check for food usually, it is not allowed to get in food or drinks inside besides dates and laban in Ramadhan.
sophis^catrina
07-10-04, 04:55 PM
lol yeah they said that to my sister, and she was just 12 years old :yawn: Poor girl, she got scared of the mullahs later. But we had a laugh abt it.
They didn't say anything to me though, luckily I was wearing my aunts huge abbaya :flamed: . Actually one of them mullahs was really nice to me. I was in the wrong place once and he spoke so softly to me saying 'amat allah plz move to that side'.
One thing abt one of the mullahs that annoyed me, was when we went to touch the cloth of al-kaaba and were there for quite a while praying and stuff. This mullah came to us and was like 'you women are showing off your bodies'. And we were like 'Huh? We came all the way to the mosque, are covered from head to toe in loose abbayas and u think that we are showing off our bodies?'. That shocked me. He was so discriminatory, just coz we were women he wanted us to move. It wasn't crowded, it isn't like people were behind us, so that could not have been an excuse. Anyway :yawn: .
Raed,
I agree very much, I mean I realized my mistake in the way i replied to the thread earlier. I've been told about it by someone who was actually there and witnessing it happening almost all the time, however i said most and not all, i never generalize and will never do. I stand in a place that i can never judge people!
BUT raed, due to the fact that I’m indeed an educated woman I FAIL, and fail again to understand and appreciate what some of them do and the way the thing is being done. "Latakhafu fi’llah lawmata la2im" Don't fear anything in the name of god is something and bad behavior is something else. When they hit you with their STICK whatsoever because your Abaya is open from front (you're wearing EXTRA cloths inside) is very IGNORANT and never was and will be by the name of the Islam I grew up knowing. When they train them for this job correctly i will know for a fact that what i said is 100% wrong.
Their job is to take care of the place, that’s one of the most wonderful and hard jobs I AGREE, but again and again these things that they keep on hitting people on is something no one can tolerate. Instead of welcoming and brining people in, they are actually causing the other way around, which is forcing people to get out of Islam!? I can’t imagine a new girl in Islam in there and get all this treatment and still think positively about Islam!!!!!!!!
About fitna, then am sorry to say every guy in this world is sinning and all of my beloved male creatures are Sining!!! Hundreds of thousands of GREAT Muslimat don't cover their face because we believe that its not a must, so why then just cover for the MU6AW3A's, are they something better or ?
Finally, I would like to say that I agree that its my duty not to think wrong on my fellow Muslim brother's and sister's, but please reconsider your post, it feels when I read it that I’m a child who knows nothing about anything and I’m an ignorant with a black hearted HEART! I do care for people more than you can imagine but being in real life and talking about wrong things that’s being done is something and feeling and supporting is something else. God bless those souls that intentionally do it for the sake of Allah but we are not here talking about the intention we are talking about the wrong way of "advising" that I'm seeing.
Anyhow, i would like to say that i realize my mistake of not giving them at least a credit but i was focusing on the bad side more than the other and i don't realize the mistake in my “stastical” side cause when i mentioned it i didn't need any , i was mostly talking about a certain group and facts that I personally aware off and tried as much as I can not to generalize. there are things hidden in life we never know about we keep on not wanting to know about. If you wan't to take the fact do if not then i have nothing to say. That holy place needs organization I AGREE but what kind of Organization needs to be done is the question.
God help those who fullfilly work for it to be the best place like it used to be ages ago :)
lol yeah they said that to my sister, and she was just 12 years old :yawn: Poor girl, she got scared of the mullahs later. But we had a laugh abt it.
They didn't say anything to me though, luckily I was wearing my aunts huge abbaya :flamed: . Actually one of them mullahs was really nice to me. I was in the wrong place once and he spoke so softly to me saying 'amat allah plz move to that side'.
One thing abt one of the mullahs that annoyed me, was when we went to touch the cloth of al-kaaba and were there for quite a while praying and stuff. This mullah came to us and was like 'you women are showing off your bodies'. And we were like 'Huh? We came all the way to the mosque, are covered from head to toe in loose abbayas and u think that we are showing off our bodies?'. That shocked me. He was so discriminatory, just coz we were women he wanted us to move. It wasn't crowded, it isn't like people were behind us, so that could not have been an excuse. Anyway :yawn: .
they do sometimes tell you that when you are wearing "A kitf" abaya, the one that starts or show your shoulder's shape. They want the "actual" abaya like they call it, the one from head to Toe.
sophis^catrina
07-10-04, 11:12 PM
they do sometimes tell you that when you are wearing "A kitf" abaya, the one that starts or show your shoulder's shape. They want the "actual" abaya like they call it, the one from head to Toe.
Well he didn't say that and most people who were doing tawaf werent wearing that khayma abbaya.
*NK 105*
08-10-04, 12:19 AM
yes most of them just come up and tell u all sorts of things. In the end most of the girls just ignored them. We actually started making jokes out of it later on, because it was over-exaggerated the way they hassled us just because we were a group of young women. They should welcome us being a group from a school from another country.
But still overall i have to say it was a wonderful experience.
In 6awaf like arby said you don't have to cover your face, but out side of that everywhere they want you too because most of them in saudia interpret the aya about veil to cover everything....etc.
I thought women aren't supposed to cover their faces anywhere in the masjid? :os
Those shuyookh are ppl at the end of the day and they can't always be right. It's a shame that they sit there and harrass ppl who are only concerned with performing religious duties. :angre:
Oh...and mabrook on the 3omra NK 105 :color:
I think its their line , Gha6y wajhk ya Mara !! used to get that all the time , but i wouldn't say anything and just continue my 6awaf , i dont blame them according to Saudi Tradition , all women Cover so just seeing few Faces uncovered is kinda weird and drives attention .
I thought these shyoukh were doing a great Job , seriously, i've seen some women being so Careless , we all know how croweded it gets during 6awaf , i used to prefer being little bit far from ka3ba during 6awaf to avoid any kind of unintentional touch or bump with men, some women would mix and fight to touch alka3baa, its not a must if you cant , this is what upsets the shyoukh, then they go on saying stuff, i dont blame them.
Clarification:
“but please reconsider your post, it feels when I read it that I’m a child who knows nothing about anything and I’m an ignorant with a black hearted HEART!Najah,
I apologize if the wording of my previous post were misunderstood. I did not mean that at all. I never claimed to be at a higher plain of knowledge, please do understand that I respect many members over here and you happen to be a cool one of them.
---------------
I would like to quote Quran and Hadeith but our server has a fire china wall that blocks everything and Arabic text is not supported so ,,!
---------------
With that being settled “I hope” lets get to matter shall we? : :yes:
When discussing a matter I always like to have a refrenence that governs the flow of my thoughts rather than gushing it all over the place. I refer to Quran and sunnah, these are the only sources that I will abide to along this conversation and I hope you do to.
It is always good to go back to square one and start remembering why we are here in the first place?
The post mainly had to do with the behavior of shyookh around Mecca particularly inside the main mosque and particularly inside the “Sahan” where al ka’aba is.
Both you and I agree now on the very fact that we should them credit. “they are doing a good job” YAY! :hbd:
And yes I agree there are sometimes when they might go over the edge but when that happens it is due to them being human beings“They are not perfect” there is always a room for progress, and progress is being made as well. Sadly, and to please other nations concept of what a happy life is, instead of improving this service “ it is slowly being taken out” by limiting its jurisdiction.
As for the stick, I never saw it in action to be honest, but with many of you being projected to the pain I guess it does happen. In the back of my mind, I picture a painful whip that makes one rubs the place that received the blow going “A7777” or “ouch” so yes my take would be get that stick out of the way.
Maybe though to them that touching a woman other than “maharem” “a mother, sister and so on” might cancel their “wudo” and moreover, some women DO NOT listen. That does not mean hitting them with a cane or a stick, it might be to get their attention, by nudging .I have faced that personally and I was not using a stick, I wish I had a shotgun :bang: “Just kidding God knows how many red reputations I have received for expressing my point of view” :scary:
which is forcing people to get out of Islam!?
Did someone actually do that? Like covert to Christianity ? some evil stick that is! :6:
About fitna, then am sorry to say every guy in this world is sinning and all of my beloved male creatures are Sining!!!
Am sorry too!
Hundreds of thousands of GREAT Muslimat don't cover their face because we believe that its not a must, so why then just cover for the MU6AW3A's, are they something better or ?
Ok, and hundred of thousands of GREAT Muslims do not believe in staring in a girls face!
Whats the way out of it ? kill each other! NO.. Men who do not want to stare at a woman’s face are as free as those women who chose to show their faces.
Many family members of mine do not cover their faces. But I cannot use personal stories or quantity to back up my argument. And I cannot force men who chose not to look at women going : Hey you better look at her when she is talking to you!
To sum it all up,
You and I believe that they are doing good work, they have to modify their methods to suit larger crowds i.e. stop using the stick.
Maybe in Wahabi math'hab you should cover your face! :os...
As far as I know that women just have to cover their full arms, and they have to cover their full body, and just their head, but not face! The only parts that should be visible are palms and face, and the rest should go inside the clothing... isn't it how it has to be?
sophis^catrina
09-10-04, 06:59 PM
Maybe in Wahabi math'hab you should cover your face! :os...
Don't think so :s ... always thought it was just saudi tradition... but then i was listening to this saudi sheikh once and he was saying that women should cover their faces , coz Prophet's wives covered.
seriously, i've seen some women being so Careless , we all know how croweded it gets during 6awaf
lol, this reminds me once while I was doing tawaf, we saw this woman arguing with the mullah abt covering her head hair, coz her fringe was sticking out. And she was arguing saying that God didn't say to cover head hair.
Anyway I agree with Raed, that it depends on the mullah himself. Using my example, one of the mullahs that I encountered was very nice to me. While the other mullah was discriminatory and rude.
tap tap tap ...
testing 1 .. 2 .. 1 .. 2
Hello people ...
Dorothy asked the good witch of the north.
Is this "Kansas"!
No my dear this is "Saudi Arabia"!
And don't loose those slippers ... :yes:
Blessed
09-10-04, 10:08 PM
People love to hate Saudi Arabia.
sophis^catrina
09-10-04, 10:24 PM
People love to hate Saudi Arabia.
LOL! Mubarak, come on don't be so pessimistic!
Thanks for the clarification:
Before replying to what you mentioned why would you care about a red spot! You are here to share not to please so keep it up.
When discussing a matter I always like to have a refrenence that governs the flow of my thoughts rather than gushing it all over the place. I refer to Quran and sunnah, these are the only sources that I will abide to along this conversation and I hope you do to.
If I can bring the person who lived in it i would've loved to, otherwise no any stastical prove can be shared. It's like history, we have it and we believe it from people, people who we believe in isn't (Nas thiqah!). It happened, but were we there at the time? No, we wasnt. The same thing applies here; it happened but heard it from trusted people would that need a number. It's not related to quran not suna, i was talking plan happened talk in here.
OK so good, we agree upon the stick, wonderful.
Ok, and hundred of thousands of GREAT Muslims do not believe in staring in a girls face!
They should believe in not staring, because that’s one of the Islamic teachings. "ghudh basarak".
Whats the way out of it ? kill each other! NO.. Men who do not want to stare at a woman’s face are as free as those women who chose to show their faces.
We don't have to cover our face men needs to lower their gaze as we do cover our head. We dress in modesty to prevent men from trapping into ratheela and so they should lower their gaze when they look at us. Islam is flexible and it came to guide all centuries so, if you think about it, these day's we work we interact we have to, life today is different so it goes back to the men, they need to have the good intention. Inama ala3malu bilniyat walikul miri2in ma nawa. So we don't cover you don't stare you go with your life smoothly, those who stare with bad intention are the ones to be excluded AND punished. It's not hard, and no one can convince me about how hard it is for men not to stare when a girl FACE is uncovered.
I hope my point is understandble.
Many family members of mine do not cover their faces. But I cannot use personal stories or quantity to back up my argument. And I cannot force men who chose not to look at women going : Hey you better look at her when she is talking to you! !
Why argument? We are not arguing here brother Raed we are discussing things. It always feels like you are :angre: :shut: oh well..
you can't force i agree no one can, but those who think they will intentionally have bad stare at woman’s face (they can't control it :eek: ) then should stare at the wall or the ceiling or somewhere else if he didn't want to be rude!
Islam is a religion of peace and it accommodates its self anywhere anytime, it's us who need to be changed. We have so much from that book and what’s happening is that some of us are raised to memories and apply the past into present without thinking, and we Muslims are so caught into seeing it with YERSTERDAY'S eyes that’s why we miss a lot of the values of islam in today’s world..
I'm very much aware of how hard it is to correct those trillion of people in there BUT there are better ways than that. Like for instance the one Sophi mentioned, if he talked with the lady nicely and proved her with the verses about hijab and talked about it in a nice way the lady might get convinced but if you go alll bushing around who would listen! ( i know i wont). and this stick, and those forcing habits, and the unnecessary words that when you hear it you think you are not aware of what your religious teachings are, their job is not to help those who don’t know to educate those uneducated to how to do it, what and why to do.
Note: Keep in mind i'm JUST expressing what I think about those who do it in a wrong way and if I drifted away from the topic, push your ignore button please I couldn’t help it. whenever i write long posts i go in circles and hope this is not one of them.
god bless that land and the people working after and for it.
People love to hate Saudi Arabia.
I hope you didnt mean that to me too, I will never hate that land because it's just tooooooo preciouse to me... it's just few little things in it that EVERY AND EACH soceity haaas that needs to be modified and offcourse people like me don't do anything but have negative thoughts and words to share..
Jack, EXCELLENT POINT, proves alot of your biased shade of thought. Keep it up.
fatamooo
10-10-04, 12:50 AM
Wow I hate it when people do that - these men are supposed to be in a position of esteem and should respect the people who hold respect for them, but instead they abuse their privilege and force people to do things according to their own personal beliefs.
I remember learning last year that women are free to cover their faces if they want to or not, but that when they pray they should remove it so I'm just concluding that during 6awaf, since it's a form of worship, the same condition would apply...
These men were being unfair and its not wrong to say so to them, as long as its done politely and with all due respect. After all, no ones perfect right?
this is going no where, I think we have talked about where we have agreed and disagreed, so am outta here
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