View Full Version : My Sadness: What 'Muslims' are Doing
~Slaughtering innocent human beings as if they were animals while chanting Muslim prayers.
~Reintroducing black slavery and genocide against blacks.
~Murdering daughters and sisters for imagined or real sexual behavior.
~Stoning women accused of adultery.
~Burning Hindu temples and Christian churches, and the destruction of among the greatest Buddhist sculptures.
~Banning women driving cars or learning to read.
~Kiddnapping & killing innocent children & people.
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What do you feel when you hear about fellow 'muslims' doing such things? (I'd like to hear both muslim members & non's comments). How do you accept it when someone claims he has the same religion as yours, does such terrible things? How do you justify it, or do you? What does it tell you about muslims today? Did it ever lead you to question your own faith in the face of it?
Pineapple Thief
19-09-04, 06:30 PM
This is how I feel: there is no muslim ummah. There is no 'organised Islam'. There are only muslims, like me and you, who have a heart and are real people. Our actions towards Islam are not radical, extreme madness as you've described above, but the small things, like helping the old lady across the road, or taking your toddler cousin to the park. Like donating money to an old persons home, or even just learning at school or college, so that we can better help our people in the future. THIS is what the 'muslim ummah' needs: kind, educated people who have no hate for anyone. This is what I aspire to be anyway. We dont need bloodlusting, self-rightious arrogant (and sadly misinformed: not all of them are bloodlusting, just unfortunately misguided) people telling us how to live our lives, and giving Islam a bad name.
[/rant]
Scorpio27
19-09-04, 07:55 PM
True, but why the muslims are acting like butcher ?!
Do u have an answer Enigma?
True, but why the muslims are acting like butcher ?!
http://www.reuters.co.uk/newsPackageArticle.jhtml?type=worldNews&storyID=586450§ion=news
"The puppet Kurdish groups...have pledged allegiance to the crusaders and continue to fight Islam and its people," said the statement signed by the group and dated Sunday.
Because these (call them what you want) must have support from the ummah to succeed.
And many from the ummah will support them :rolleyes:
No matter what tactics they use ... :bang:
elect me as ur "khalifa" and ill solve everything within 300 days!
Scorpio27
19-09-04, 09:12 PM
Shocking. But I wonder how the puppet government of Iraq is serving for USA.
Can we treat Iraq as an independent country? What the hell did USA achieve by invading Iraq? I guess only bloodshed. And the freedom fighter of Iraq is naturally should be mad
At this point, right. I don’t support killing, but I believe the Muslim militants are the outcome of western high ambition.
Wherever Muslims are suppressed there we experience such bloodshed. If UN had superpower and the Veto right would be withdrawn, the globe would be in more peace.
If the superpowers don’t stop treating Muslims as slave it is obvious to experience the horror and butcher acts.
I am not an extremist; I told in a thread that “ I am a human before I am a Muslim” & you all know that I believe “Humanity is the best Religion”.
Sorry I can’t express myself clear, nor I am a good critic, I write what I observe and believe ; in poor English.
Thanks
I'm sure Enigma started this thread in the religious sabla and not in political for a purpose.
:bang:
Scorpio27
19-09-04, 09:30 PM
you are right brother. In fact Islam has nothing to do with cruelty. It's the groups personal theories. :( For some brute Muslims we can't blame Islam, for some brute Christians or hindu's we can't blame those religions.
Frustrating
It really upsets me to see people who ruin Islam by these stupid acts. Yes I call it stupidity. These people are spreading the wrong idea about our religion. They don't really understand what islam is all about, and they have this misleading believe that it's only them, and not other muslims mind you, know what's right and what's wrong, and they can take extreme measures to correct this 'wrong situation', which usually leads to devastating results.
The islam I know is all about love and peace. About doing good deeds, no matter how small, yet hold great values. Even a smile to a stranger is something which we believe you're rewarded for!
I'm against those people, and to be, I don't really believe in them being real muslims, no matter how much they pretend they are.
The islam I know is all about love and peace. About doing good deeds, no matter how small, yet hold great values. Even a smile to a stranger is something which we believe you're rewarded for! :) .... :D
Arabian Princess
19-09-04, 11:22 PM
Its sad to hear that any human being doing such a cruel behavior , killing children and slaughtering inncoents without any right whatsever. When they are muslims, it hurts more coz they give islam a cruel image when what islam is about peace.
Surat Yunis 10:
"Their cry in it shall be: Glory to Thee, O Allah! and their greeting in it shall be: Peace; and the last of their cry shall be: Praise be to Allah, the Lord of the worlds"
Scorpio27
19-09-04, 11:42 PM
:) .... :D
Dear Jack, Please don't laugh at Islam.
Those buthers are not Muslim. No way.
They will be punished by nature or god here in the world or if there is a afterlife awaiting.
:eyes:
CrazyReD
20-09-04, 02:47 AM
I fail to see how the term Muslim is associated with these ppl
thier actions are clearly no what islam is about so how come they are labeled as muslims?
just because of the area they are in or name they have? that's not what a muslim is.
Dear Jack, Please don't laugh at Islam.
Those buthers are not Muslim. No way.
They will be punished by nature or god here in the world or if there is a afterlife awaiting.
:eyes:As usual you do not have a clue ...
I smiled at DrN's comment ...
And she graciously smiled back ... in her own way. ;)
And if those butchers and the rest that support their cause are not muslim ...
Then I say that estimate of the muslim population/followers ... 1.3bil
Just went way down.
Arabian Princess
20-09-04, 07:46 AM
Jack, they are muslims, but thier actions doesnt necesserly represent Islam!!
CrazyReD
20-09-04, 07:50 AM
arby how are the muslims if they are killing innocents and going against what islam tells us?
espeically that a good number of the guys who are kidnapped are actually trying to help re build the country
islam never told us to kill the innocent and those who can't helpthemselves I for one agree with jack i don't care if the muslim population goes down to 1 as long as that 1 represents how ISLAM really is
yall are so pessimistic its unbelievable! Look at the bright side, the filled half of the cup. It is recorded in Israelite stories in Islamic books; Jesus once passed by a dead mule and asked the apostles what is it you see? Everyone said: corpse, dead body, stinking smell with loads of flies when he simply said: How white are those teeth! Even a negative charge such as an electron has a positive side “less negative charge to it” “BLESSED :help: “
Krazy, Pineapple and Princess's comments made me think (as usual!):
At what point does a "bad" Muslim cease to be considered a Muslim by others, or is that just for Allah to decide?
CrazyReD
20-09-04, 09:14 AM
I think it goes to what you define a muslim to be and based on that defenition you compare the rest. you can have a bad muslim turn into a good muslim if that muslim really regrets what he has done and asks Allah for forgiviness maybe the community will never forget that person and he/she should live with that sine he/she did something(s) to desrve that treatmen
Arabian Princess
20-09-04, 09:24 AM
Krazy Red, do you sin??
I am sure the answer is right ..
if whats his doing is wrong. its wrong, but he doesnt cease to be a muslim because he is doing mistakes. Not all muslims are angels!
takfeer game started ?! he is not Muslim, oh he is not Muslim cause he called me a non-Muslim !
Abdullah Abdullah- fought UBL for years- and when he was asked on Larry King's if UBL is Muslim?! He said: " I cannot say he is not Muslim because I am fighting against him, the man calls himself a Muslim!"
Famous scholars such as Ibn Taymah were reported to repent from any accusation of someone being a non-Muslim.
Arabian Princess
20-09-04, 10:14 AM
EXACTLY Raed!!!
its a very big thing to call somoene non-muslim .. so we should refain from doing that even if we dont agree with what they do!!
So would you answer my question? At what point would you call someone a non-Muslim even though he calls himself a Muslim? Spell it out!
Arabian Princess
20-09-04, 10:37 AM
I said it before , if he beleive in the basic faith of muslims:
- Shahadat ana la ilaha ila allah wana muhamdan rasul allah
- and what came out in the Quran ..
then he is a muslim.
actions he does after that doesnt mean we cast them out of the religion, no .. but we punish them for thier mistakes.
Are there Muslim rapist, killers, theives yes there are.. we do admit we have our own black sheep. Its not like a faith where someone could easily be invited, kicked out, and welcomed back.
I'd agree to most of what you've said. It's really hurting to hear such un Islamic acts done by Muslims. But remember, it's not that all Muslims are doing these actions. In fact, if you look at this matter deeply, you'll find that it's done only by some few Muslims who don't necessarily represent Islam. However, the point I don't agree with you about is the Stoning of women ((married ones))who commit adultery. I think these women should be stoned and that's, of course, according to the Islamic rules.
~Stoning women accused of adultery.
and your take on the matter is?
OK, so so far, Raed and Princess say as long as someone calls himself a Muslim, it is not for others to say otherwise. But Niggy and Pineapple say that those who commit heinous crimes cease to be Muslims.
(And before somebody jumps in, yes, we all know that terrible crimes are un-Islamic - I asked specifically about whether Muslims can deny each other's faith based on certain evidence).
Any other opinions?
mimosa ..
here is my argument :
it is a fine line that none over here that I know of can tell where it is drawn, and even those who saw it "where someone stops being Muslims" have backed off from it all at their final moments in this life. We consider it to be serious. that’s all.
For instance when a guy from the Nation of Islam was asked to say the Shehadah "la Ilah Ila Allah, Mohammed Rusool Allah" he said , which mohammed ? cause if it is alija mohammed then its all cool yo!
And the scholars were like : :lost: " Declined " but many of the nation of Islam go by that.
====
Crash course:
Sunni sector divides into four schools that go about how things are done, "just like how people would differ about preparing a dinner table, but at the end everyone gets served the same food"
Anyways, he was faced with heresy that got stated that Quran was created not said by God, and for 28 months he stood there saying now and was tortured by dislocating his shoulder almost daily.
He used to say: " this is a "Quran being created" is a saying of Kufr , but he did not accuse those who opposed him for being non Muslims" he just pointed out that it was not Islamic and of deviation to say such things
Pineapple Thief
20-09-04, 12:04 PM
Its a difficult question. They cease to be muslims in my eyes, because for me, Islam is not 'just' a religion: its a way of life. However, if they follow the basic pillars, then they have to be considered a muslim, at least in faith.
No muslim can deny another muslims faith, because religion is an intensely personal issue as well. My islam may well be very different from your islam, and you can call me a 'kafir' - I dont give a ****, because the path of every muslim is different. Ive stated this before, I dont think there is any 'right' path (well there is, but its very broad). Ultimately its determined by morality, and some universal truths. If you think slaughtering men women and children for no reason is acceptable in Islam, well, God help you.
But no, to answer Mimosa's question, I dont think anyone has the right to cast anyone else out of religion. Its not possible. But I maintain that there is no muslim ummah, and there probably never will be, until common sense and education prevails.
PT
No Mo2men Ummah "believers Nation" is more accurate and politically correct.
Haroundb
20-09-04, 12:20 PM
~Stoning women accused of adultery.
This shouldn't be here!
This one is Original Islamic Punishment for adultery, and for your information, this is not considered (Something Bad). And you should not include it in here. If you are talking about the brutality of the un-aware Muslims, remember that this Allah's decision for the Zina sin (adultery), not a radical Muslim who's decides according to what comes out of his won mind.
"If you don't like this way of punishment, just don't do the sin", this is the whole idea.
And remember that no one can ask Allah about, "why is he using fire in Gahanam "Hell", not anything else. He know better than any one else do. And what looks like harsh punishment is much better than what we see in the western community now. "Every one sleeping with every one, even relatives together, as a result of silly / No punishment for the modern and civilized countries.
I think that this punishment is better than people sleeping with each other, and ending with a lots of “Killings”, “Single Mothers”, “Un-Known Father (which of the men I slept with is the father?)", “AIDS”, “Homosexuals”, “Brother X Sister Marriage”,” Babies in Garbage”, “Women Abuse”…etc. I think this is more disgusting than throwing adulterer with stones till he dies.
Actually seeing a punishment like this is the 100% cure for this ‘Sin’ .And Muslims being advise to participate in it (by throwing stones)is the best thing that someone will remember when (Zina) comes to his mind. He will be thinking 1000 times before doing any thing. And remember that no one will be going straight in his life, and will admit such a sin. The man who did (Zina) must have done a lots of other leasures before that, and I am sure that Allah did give him the chance many times before he discloses his sin.
Thinking in it makes you feel brutal and inhuman, but remember the following:
1- It was very few times this punishment was applied, because most of those whom it was applied on them, confessed themselves with the sin, and asked for the punishment themselves for purification.
2- To prove adultery you have to come up with 4 adult responsible witnesses of whom will see the whole process and will confess the 100% sexual origins intercourse.( How can you achieve that, unless who is donning this is a man who is doing it on TV!). Then these restrictions really reflects the type of people who is doing it (professionals).
3-Applying these punishments will reduce the amount of sinners dramatically because the punishment is both physical and spiritual.
4-Don’t ever think that your judgment on things will be better than Allah’s judgment. But our problem we keep repeating what we don’t understand. And those who fight for human rights MUST confess that they are loosers in front of the distractive results of adultery.
5-If we applied the punishment stated by Allah we will living in a better world, but the limitation of our awareness give us the horrible picture of the man or woman being stoned, and totally ignores the whole miserable situation adultery is causing.
Raed,
It's "sect" not "sector", and I'm well aware of the different Sunni schools of jurisprudence, but thank you. It seems that the Vegetable Villain is coming round to your way of thinking: I am Muslim if I say I am, the rest is between me and God. Interesting....come on Niggy, let's have it!
Of course, what we're missing is that the so-called Grand Muftis of all of these schools are forever declaring other Muslims apostate. Does that mean they're wrong?
Haroun,
By "responsible witnesses" you mean Muslim witnesses right? It's not four unless they're women, it's two if they're men. And they don't have to see the pink stormtrooper knock the door down in order to be witnesses, they just have to swear it's true. And of course very few "crimes" of this nature are prosecuted on the basis of witnesses. Why bother when a "confession" will do? Given the standards of evidence and detainees rights in the Islamic world, do you really want to see your women-folk stoned in the street on the word of two busybodies, or the basis of a "confession" extracted in private by God knows who?
Anyway, not all agree on stoning "adulterers". It's a matter of opinion through Islamic jurisprudence, like 90% of the other "truths". It's not specified in the Qur'an, is it?
First, it is 4 male witnesses who have to swear they have seen the actual sexuel intercourse-taking place. It is not like I can say go and swear along with three of my buddies that Abdullah, the Arabic version of Joe, was having sex with someone, and he gets stoned before he can be heard!
And yes we do not bother when a "confession" is there. Check Ma'ez & Ghamdyah at the time of the prophet Peace Be Upon Him and how he rejected both of them until both were persistent to undergo the punishment. Ma’ez’s tribe were asked several times if he was insane and coming up with stuff? And the Ghamdyah was rejected until her baby grew up, and she came back afterwards.
Islam resurrects consciousness within, where stones thrown at one’s body are of less pain than guilt thrown on one’s soul.
Mimosa: did you know if those who are stoned ran away at the time the verdict took place, which they could have, they are not to be followed.
Ma’ez tried escaping but he was followed and when the prophet heard of it he said Peace be Upon Him: “ why didn’t you let him run away? “
Anyway, not all agree on stoning "adulterers".
Since when truth was measured by how many believe in it? Truth is independent of the number of those who believe in it.
Raed,
It's "sect" not "sector", and I'm well aware of the different Sunni schools of jurisprudence, but thank you.
- New day new info. Mucho Gracias :gap:
It seems that the Vegetable Villain is coming round to your way of thinking:
- I used to go by something I believed in: "When Arabs talk amongst themselves the debate extends from the topic to those who are discussing it in a classical bash contest"
I took out the word: " Arabs" and placed "people" instead. :rolleyes:
CrazyReD
20-09-04, 07:20 PM
to each his ideas wether i sin or not is up to allah to decide and the angels to record if i do sin then i hope allah forgives me
killing other muslims is not part of islam is it? it's against it true there are bad muslims
but i fail to see how you call some one who drinks, commits adultery a true muslim if that is what islam is or that's some one people gladly call muslim then there's a serious problem
lets distinguish between two terms Muslims, Mo'mens.
MoonChild
20-09-04, 09:12 PM
Most Christians don't give a second thought to the KKK, white supremacist skinheads, and other radicals who call themselves Christian but do nothing but hate- like the moderate Muslims of today, they simply don't consider them "real christians" or representative of what Christianity is about. So I don't blame the vast majority of good people who are Muslims who really don't feel responsible for the actions of terrorists who call themselves Muslim.
However, because these "so called" muslim extremists are wielding so MUCH power in the political arena today through their terrorist and military actions, you moderate "real" muslims have been placed BY THEM in the position of either defending your religion in a more vocal and organized manner, or risk appearing complicite in their representation of Islam.
It may be no more "fair" to judge Islam by these fanatics than it would be to judge Christianity by the Inquisition; yet without a moderating voice rising up to defend Islam, the rest of the world only knows what it is "told" of Islam through the violence it sees every day :(
CrazyReD
21-09-04, 02:43 AM
good reply moonchild i wasn't aware that the kkk called themselves christian.
anyway I personally don't consider them muslims simply because they mass murder innocents and they claim they are doing it in the name of islam, they are doing it for the muslims, they are doing it cause god says so. Where in Islam does it say kill innocents(wether enemey or friend?)
another thing islam has 5 pillars the shada is part of it anyone can go saying those words but saying something is different when you say it and back it up by actions which go side by side with islam not actions that islam never encouraged
Arabian Princess
21-09-04, 08:07 AM
It may be no more "fair" to judge Islam by these fanatics than it would be to judge Christianity by the Inquisition; yet without a moderating voice rising up to defend Islam, the rest of the world only knows what it is "told" of Islam through the violence it sees every day
moonchild, the voice of real muslims is clear, but I think the west media find it more intresting to stress on the attituide of the wronged muslims ;)
Krazyred, when I asked you if you sin is because everyone sins on things that are away from islam, even if they were minute. We didnt stop calling ourselves muslims and so we shouldnt stop calling other people muslims who might have wrongly represented Islam!!
CrazyReD
21-09-04, 08:30 AM
to each his opinion
I'm just posting what I think
I realize you want to probably leave a positive image and even correct my mistakes which I thank you for but I prefer the way I think Some of these "Muslims" go killing other muslims "a muslim dosn't kill his own muslim brother" so if a muslim is killing another muslim then he/she isn't one
again each has his own opinion
Raed,
The "truth" does not vary? Then let's put it another way...perhaps there are six billion truths....
mimosa ... there are six billion roads which lead to a ONE truth.
I have explained my concept of truth in a previous thread.
Truth is independent of those who endorse it, their number and most of all is not opinionated. However, scanning through this part of the forum you run across words : " I think, I believe, I cannot believe that, in my opinion" which states no more than personal opinion that deviates from the road to truth.
يقولون هذا عندنا غير جـــائزٍ ___ومن أنتم حتى يكون لكم عندُ؟
a line of poetry which is translated to : and should they say Oh this is not acceptable to us____ Who are you to even cast an opinion to the matter?
Your version of truth can never be more than your opinion. I too believe in a single higher truth, but it can never be more to you than my own human best guess. Nor can yours to me.
Let's put some bets on and settle up in the next World :scratchchin:
CrazyReD
21-09-04, 09:26 AM
well isn't this forum about opinions? and indivdual thougts?
everything we do in this world is acording to how we preceive things and then give an opinion about it.
and who are we to voice our opinion ---> the human's god gave us a brain :)
as for why using I belive or in my opinion it's because I'm saying what I think I might be wrong and if my thinking is wrong I don't want the whole "Islam" be assosiated with such a mistake unlike some muslims who go killing in the name of Islam ;)
can we call munafqeen muslims?
Your version of truth can never be more than your opinion. I too believe in a single higher truth, but it can never be more to you than my own human best guess. Nor can yours to me.
Again you assume. I do not go through discussions with a hardheaded brain, if I am right then I was lucky, if I am wrong then I am ever luckier that I found out that I was wrong.
Let's put some bets on and settle up in the next World :scratchchin:
Yes! I have mentioned that to Scottish, the member, before. It is gambling and I am willing to take the risk.
well isn't this forum about opinions? and indivdual thougts?
everything we do in this world is acording to how we preceive things and then give an opinion about it.
True, but have you seen someone saying I really do not like the theory of relativity, or I do not think that it is right? Wouldn't people straight ahead ask what is that you can provide them with to prove them wrong? I view religious verdicts to be as methodical, and systematic as a legitimate science is. Say Physics!?
and who are we to voice our opinion ---> the human's god gave us a brain :)
surely people would consider your contribution to any matter with more seriousness once they realize that you obtain broader knowledge. Think PhD, and university freshman!
as for why using I belive or in my opinion it's because I'm saying what I think I might be wrong and if my thinking is wrong I don't want the whole "Islam" be assosiated with such a mistake unlike some Muslims who go killing in the name of Islam ;)
I agree.
can we call munafqeen muslims?
What Nefaq- hypocrisy- are we talking about?
CrazyReD
21-09-04, 09:24 PM
in general but to be specific to the topic on hand
someone claiming to be muslim but does nothing that shows that the person is (isn't seen in mosques, seen murdering innocents)
as for the freshman comment i'm a Junior and gonna graduate next year inshalla.
As "I view religious verdicts to be as methodical, and systematic as a legitimate science is. Say Physics!?" can you prove the existence of djin by a legitimate science? or the existence of a god or to disaprove the exisitence of god. If we go by science then were we apes at first and then all of the sudden we are humans, however just few number of apes evolved and the rest have failed to do so?
~Slaughtering innocent human beings as if they were animals while chanting Muslim prayers.
~Reintroducing black slavery and genocide against blacks.
~Murdering daughters and sisters for imagined or real sexual behavior.
~Stoning women accused of adultery.
~Burning Hindu temples and Christian churches, and the destruction of among the greatest Buddhist sculptures.
~Banning women driving cars or learning to read.
~Kiddnapping & killing innocent children & people.
---------
What do you feel when you hear about fellow 'muslims' doing such things? (I'd like to hear both muslim members & non's comments). How do you accept it when someone claims he has the same religion as yours, does such terrible things? How do you justify it, or do you? What does it tell you about muslims today? Did it ever lead you to question your own faith in the face of it?
I don't think it's right to call them muslims unless you are 100% sure, if you are refering to the suitation in Iraq then who knows maybe the Americans are doing it or the Jewish. You know there is no security in Iraq now after the illegal war by the US and the killing of innocent muslims there.
in general but to be specific to the topic on hand
someone claiming to be muslim but does nothing that shows that the person is (isn't seen in mosques, seen murdering innocents)
as for the freshman comment i'm a Junior and gonna graduate next year inshalla.
As "I view religious verdicts to be as methodical, and systematic as a legitimate science is. Say Physics!?" can you prove the existence of djin by a legitimate science? or the existence of a god or to disaprove the exisitence of god. If we go by science then were we apes at first and then all of the sudden we are humans, however just few number of apes evolved and the rest have failed to do so?
I will go by Bruce Lee's advice "See this cup? Become the cup! See this water? Become the water! Be like water my friend" Today's Science refutes Darwin's evolution dogma. Jin we have beaten that topic to death brought to life again and kicked the crap out of it, so no more lets have mercy over Jin. God? I quote
ameer al mo'mneen Ali bn ABi Talib when he was asked what is the proof for God's existence? When he answered :" سبحان الله ومتى غاب الله حتى يحتاج وجوده إلى دليل؟"
Sobhan Allah , and since was he not present so that we need to prove him?
To me he is there scientifically there, but that’s not why I believed in him first. I believed in him way before my brain understood science and what it is.
P.S : the freshman thingi was only an analogy and a bad one too ! good luck with your studies chief. :gap:
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