No Religion is perfect, those are getting aged

[Scorpio27]

I guess no religion is perfect but you can rate best better and worst.
I don't want to urgue, but wanna see what people thinks. :help:

[monotheism]

If it's the Word of G-d, it's perfect, and if not, it's no different from English literature; a mixture of truth and falsehood. I reject the premise of this thread, which is that G-d created mankind, but never revealed His Will, like a father who abandons his child, or like a machine designer who fails to write a user's manual, I find this absurd.

Just as a craftsman carefully fashions an instrument so that it effectively perform a given function, so did the Creator construct our world precisely – to the tiniest detail – so that His Purpose may ultimately be accomplished.

Furthermore, if even a mortal, fallible artisan would give exact instructions to a layman to know how to best use his invention, certainly the Creator would not neglect to provide us with the proper guidelines to achieve our Purpose.

Indeed, the very fact that all the other levels of creation function according to definite laws strongly indicates that the same is required of the highest creation – man, in his exercise of choice.

G-d has revealed his Will--in the Torah.

[Pineapple Thief]

I think religion itself, in bulk, is perfect, as I mentioned in the other thread. its the perfect creation because it can neither be proven or disproven. It forever forces us to continue in life, to discover, to think. If religion were proven and everything were laid down, well, we would be robots, just following commands. Thus, Islam asks us to think and to come to our own decisions and conclusions. But can it be proven? Not until the day of judgement. No religion can be proven till that time, or disproven.

[monotheism]

1) Logically, since the various religions are mutually contradictory, only one can be absolutely true--though the others may well contain certain elements of truth.

2) G-d's revealing His Will doesn't make man a robot, because he then has free choice whether to obey G-d's commands.

3) The suggestion that it is impossible to know which religion is the true one suggests that G-d left man to wander aimlessly, and never bothered revealing His Will to mankind. This is self-contradictory, for this assertion in effect claims knowledge of the sphere that it deems unknowable.

[mimosa]

1) Logically, since the various religions are mutually contradictory, only one can be absolutely true--though the others may well contain certain elements of truth.

2) G-d's revealing His Will doesn't make man a robot, because he then has free choice whether to obey G-d's commands.

3) The suggestion that it is impossible to know which religion is the true one suggests that G-d left man to wander aimlessly, and never bothered revealing His Will to mankind. This is self-contradictory, for this assertion in effect claims knowledge of the sphere that it deems unknowable.


lol Mono...don't you think that "3" contradicts "1"? Being "aware" that a religion exists doesn't make it a certainty of fact!

And as for "2", a little disingenuous for a follower of a Semitic religion to say "man has a free choice to obey or not": If you are a genuine believer, then you believe you have a "free choice" between absolute obedience and buring in Hell for eternity. Not quite my definition of freedom of choice! Are you a friend of the late Leader President Field Marshal Idi Amin by any chance?!

[MoonChild]

a perfect religion would be internally consistent at the VERY LEAST ... since none of the major religions meet this criteria, they must be imperfect... implying that they are not truly sent from God. In other words, all are made up by men, at least in written form, even if inspired by God, S/he didn't stick around to edit.

[Pineapple Thief]

Theres an error in that statement, and I'd like to ask another member to point it out and rectify it.

[monotheism]

The Torah IS internally consistent; I suggest learning more before drawing such conclusions. All of the questions asked on the Written Law are thoroughly addressed in the vast literature of the Rabbinic teachings.

[IceTea]

a perfect religion would be internally consistent at the VERY LEAST ... since none of the major religions meet this criteria, they must be imperfect... implying that they are not truly sent from God. In other words, all are made up by men, at least in written form, even if inspired by God, S/he didn't stick around to edit.




يُرِيدُونَ أَنْ يُطْفِئُوا نُورَ اللَّهِ بِأَفْوَاهِهِمْ وَيَأْبَى اللَّهُ إِلَّا أَنْ يُتِمَّ نُورَهُ وَلَوْ كَرِهَ الْكَافِرُونَ


"They desire to put out the light of Allah with their mouths, and Allah will not consent save to perfect His light, though the unbelievers are averse."

And to answer Hasanain question:


وَمَنْ يَبْتَغِ غَيْرَ الْإِسْلَامِ دِينًا فَلَنْ يُقْبَلَ مِنْهُ وَهُوَ فِي الْآخِرَةِ مِنَ الْخَاسِرِينَ


"And whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers."

[MoonChild]

The Torah IS internally consistent; I suggest learning more before drawing such conclusions. All of the questions asked on the Written Law are thoroughly addressed in the vast literature of the Rabbinic teachings.

I disagree - at least in the English translations I've read. My interest doesn't extend quite so far as to learn Hebrew though. Largely because even were the Hebrew to clear up any internal consistences, it's still not consistent with externally observable reality AND because I completely disagree with it's depiction of the characterization of God as a forbidding, rule-setting, vicious punisher father-figure.

[monotheism]

The translations you've read are probably from sources that are not Orthodox Jewish sources, which thus do not conform to the traditional interpretation. I have no problem if someone suggests that there are contradictions in that.

In any case, as I have explained throughout the forum, the Written Law of the Hebrew Bible is inseparable from its interpretation and application by the Jewish Sages throughout the ages, as recorded in the extensive Rabbinic literature. Together, the Written and Oral (Rabbinic) Laws comprise the Torah.

Thus, there may be apparent contradictions in the text of the Hebrew Bible, but they are all resolved in the Talmud and the countless other Rabbinic texts, as any beginning student of Torah knows. Thus, challenging the Torah's internal consistency without thoroughly studying these texts is improper.

I'm not sure what you mean when you assert that the Torah is "not consistent with externally observable reality."

You say that you "completely disagree with it's [alleged] depiction of the characterization of God as a forbidding, rule-setting, vicious punisher father-figure." So do I! That's totally inaccurate. The Jewish mystical teachings (omitted on all the atheist sites, for some reason) teach that G-d has (in addition to and counterbalancing His attribute of strictness) 13 attributes of Mercy:

Merciful God, merciful God, powerful God, compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, and abundant in kindness and truth. Preserver of kindness for thousands of generations, forgiver of iniquity, willful sin and error, and Who cleanses. (Exodus 34:6-7)

These are daily recited by Jews in the liturgy; see here for more discussion: http://www.aish.com/hhElul/hhElulDefault/Slichot_and_the_13_Attributes.asp

I think that only someone whose knowledge of Torah stems from third-hand reports is under such an impression. To see for yourself what the Torah is really about, I suggest that you study primary sources.