Zena.

[Delicate]

Zani: a man who has sex with another woman who's not his wife.
Zanya: a woman who has sex with another man who's not her husband.
Zena: The act; sex.

Last night I heard something that really shocked me... for the first time I come to know that in abadhiya school a "zani" is not to marry a "zanya"!!!!!!!!

I asked for the definition of "zena".. and I was told that ONCE the reproductive organs of EACH individual JUST TOUCH, then it falls under "zena"! Not necessarily, having sex...

I am "abadhiya", and I am not comfortable about what I heard.. I mean, why shouldn't a zani and a zanya get married? In my opinion, I think it's better and even safer... and there's no harm in that.
They also said: The man who did the zena with the woman can't get married, but he can get married to another woman who did zena with someone else, and the same with the women!

There's a verse in the Quran, which I don't know the ayya or sura, but it says: "al zani la yanki7uhu ila zanyatan aw mushrik, wal zanya la yanki7uha ila zani aw mushrik" which says: zani cannot marry anyone but a zanya or non-muslim, and zanya can't marry anyone but a zani or non-muslim. Maybe someone can help with the translation in Arabic.
I find this verse very clear, and that a zani and zanya CAN get married to a zanya and zani.

What even surprised me more, that IF they did get married, their children are going to be "the children of zena (7aram)".. I also heard stories, that some couples had to seperate because they went throught that before they got married .. the shyookh claim that it's not a complete marriage, and they have to seperate.

This is really messed up!!
Can someone explain more of this to me??

Can someone explain what the "abadhiya" really states around this issue?
Can you tell me what YOUR school taught you (mentioning what school you belong to)?

[Enigma]

“Women impure for men impure, and men impure for women impure and women of purity are for men of purity, and men of purity are for women of purity: these are not affected by what people say: for them there is forgiveness, and a provision honorable.” (An-Nur: 26)

" Let no man guilty of adultery or fornication marry any but a woman similarly guilty, or an Unbeliever: nor let any but such a man or an Unbeliever marry such a woman: to the Believers such a thing is forbidden." (An-Nur: 3)

-------

1st:

Impure is an adulterer/adulteress. He/she does not deserve a pure person because of the sin he/she has committed. BUT, this isn't a straight ruling, I suppose it is just in favor of if you know what I mean. The thing is, if a pure guy marries and adultress he will always have a feeling of uncertainty in his heart; he won't completely trust her (and vice versa if it was the girl) which would lead to a problematic marriage.

So what the two verses are saying is, that two people who had previously had sex with someone illegally other than eachother are best suited.

(I would just like to note that, in the first verse it says 'not affected by what people say' means that the sin must be proven and not some gossip for the ruling to take place).

2nd:

It IS 7ARAM for two who commited this sin together to marry. That is their punishment. Because they went for it too soon and wrongly, they don't get it at all. A marriage between them would not be recognised by Islam. This is what I was taught, and I am an abadhi.

[Arabian Princess]

Ok it goes this way:
Abadhya beleive that if somone went for something before its his/hers, he should be stopped from getting it.
من استعجل الشيء قبل أوانه حرم منه!
They also refer to a hadith by prophet mohammed that explain that a zany and a zaniya cant get married.
this is to stop people from commiting this major sin, coz if they know they wouldnt be able to get married later they will think alot before comming it.

I understand this in other sects isnt that way.

I understand your concern and I think about it the same way .. I mean especially if the woman gets pregnant .. there will lots of social problems if couples couldnt get married to correct thier mistake. but then, the logic is there wouldnt be alot of zena if that happend.

Allahu Allam

[sophis^catrina]

This is really messed up!!


Agreed :D . Doesn't make sense to me either, nor to the other mathahib. ;)

It is haram in the Ibadhi sect only . Not the others. :angel: Choose/Prefer whatever you think makes the most sense to you ;) .

The school I went to taught me the same as what Enigma said, well all the Islamic books over here teach us what the Ibadhi side says!

[sophis^catrina]

They also refer to a hadith by prophet mohammed that explain that a zany and a zaniya cant get married.


I am not exactly sure, but I don't think so. They refer to a Jabir bin Zaid saying/ interpretation of that Quranic verse on Zenna.

[Delicate]

sophis^catrina.. you're making lots of sense around this.

Arabian Princess: (talking about the abadhiya): What if the two didn't know that this will not make them get married and they both had a regret (toba), and promised Allah will never go back to that?

[Wardat_il'7leej]

The word zina (adultery and fornication), in Islam, can be used in two different, yet related, ways. It can be used as a general term that refers to a general meaning, and as a legal term defining a criminal act that invites punishments and other legal applications.
Zina in its broad meaning indicates any haram (prohibited) act.
Allah (swt) in the Nobel Qur’an said:
Nor come near to adultery: for it is a shameful (deed) and an evil, opening the road (to other evils).
Surah 17 Verse 32

Zina, as a legal term, has a more specific meaning because there are legal applications related to it. According to scholars, in its legal meaning zina is ‘the voluntary sexual intercourse outside of marriage
Zina is regarded among the major sins in Islam.
The Prophet (pbuh) said:
‘There is no sin after shirk (polytheism) greater in the eyes of Allah than a drop of semen, which a man places in the womb which is not lawful for him.’
http://www.islamonline.net/askaboutislam/display.asp?hquestionID=3220

[sophis^catrina]

Arabian Princess: (talking about the abadhiya): What if the two didn't know that this will not make them get married and they both had a regret (toba), and promised Allah will never go back to that?

Delicate, I've actually heard of married couples who never knew abt this and when they did find out (and by the time they even had kids), they actually split up, coz of this!

Ibadhi mathhab seems to be extremely strict on this issue. :duh:

[Arabian Princess]

you see sophis, I dont agree with this strictness too, but then I dont think they refered to only an explanation of the Quran. I remmber clearly there was a hadith about it and I read books and the hadith was mentioned.
Now I dont know how strong is the hadith and whats the meaning behind it but I dont think a scholar will give such a strong ruling unless it was based on something either from teh Quran or Hadith.

I have a book regarding marraige at home, I will try to check if it has anything about this.

[Pineapple Thief]

“Women impure for men impure, and men impure for women impure and women of purity are for men of purity, and men of purity are for women of purity: these are not affected by what people say: for them there is forgiveness, and a provision honorable.” (An-Nur: 26)

" Let no man guilty of adultery or fornication marry any but a woman similarly guilty, or an Unbeliever: nor let any but such a man or an Unbeliever marry such a woman: to the Believers such a thing is forbidden." (An-Nur: 3)

-------

1st:

Impure is an adulterer/adulteress. He/she does not deserve a pure person because of the sin he/she has committed. BUT, this isn't a straight ruling, I suppose it is just in favor of if you know what I mean. The thing is, if a pure guy marries and adultress he will always have a feeling of uncertainty in his heart; he won't completely trust her (and vice versa if it was the girl) which would lead to a problematic marriage.

So what the two verses are saying is, that two people who had previously had sex with someone illegally other than eachother are best suited.

(I would just like to note that, in the first verse it says 'not affected by what people say' means that the sin must be proven and not some gossip for the ruling to take place).

2nd:

It IS 7ARAM for two who commited this sin together to marry. That is their punishment. Because they went for it too soon and wrongly, they don't get it at all. A marriage between them would not be recognised by Islam. This is what I was taught, and I am an abadhi.


This is the first time I encouter this issue. It makes sense to me, and Im not an abadhi.

[sophis^catrina]

^^^ *Just wondering* So Thiefie, do u also agree with the Ibadhis that when that has happened, married couples (who did zena before) who now also have kids should split up when they found out abt this ruling? Well this is what people have done. :s

[Arabian Princess]

you see sophis its not about agree or disagree .. it is about the principles.
If those people beleived in the ruling, they would have to split up because they will ever live in a doubt. If they didnt, then they shouldnt have bothered asking scince the beginning.

when somone confront a shiekh with a question, he holds great responsibilty according to his knowledge. His knowledge "as an Ibadhai" that they cant be togther, he cant change what he beleves and give them a wrong fatwa just because he feels sorry for them!

I agree its very very strict, but it could be dettering from commiting such a sin!

[Delicate]

Arby and Sophis, I really like the way you explain things out, and make lots of sense. I am abadhi too, and I too understand that it is a very strict sector. You both have good points and look at things from different point of views.

I have also heard about couples who were asked to be divorced even after they had children... but my case and question is quite different. I am talking about a real life case which is happening at the moment.

First, Zena could be anything.. if a man smells a woman's perfume that's zena... but that doesn't mean if a man smelt that perfume on a woman's body he could not marry her... Zena in this case is meant something else, and I guess it's having sex (which I am not sure if only that-please let me know-).
So is "zena" here? ONLY SEX, OR SOMETHING ELSE? THIS IS AN IMPORTANT QUESTION! --which I will be glad if I find the answer (took me ages to find out)--

Let me say if the man and woman did this sinful act and then they regret it (tooba to Allah from the heart)... and they never went back to it again, realzing that it's very wrong. Now, years passed, and today he comes and wants to marry her.. (at this point, they already promised to Allah that they would not go back to it, and they are good people)... Why can't he marry her? They regret this before marriage came up! That's what getting my head really confused. I mean Islam is supposed to be "Deen Yusur", and things should work out easily with no complications... reminding you that they already had a tooba and the door of tooba is always open!

[Diva]

I don't think not being able to marry one another is too strict a punishment for a couple who have sex before they get married. If they were allowed to marry then couples that are 'so in love' would have sex whenever they wanted to before getting married knowing that they're gonna end up together anyway. And that's against the teaching of Islam in any sector. The point here is that zina is 7aram in Islam, regardless of the punishment. If the Sunnis, for example, say that the couple will be allowed to marry, that doesn't change the fact that they've committed a sin. People need an incentive to follow Islamic rules. If a man and woman really like each other and wanna get married, they should wait until the law considers them man and wife to do whatever it is they wanna do. Why rush things and expect God to make an exception and allow that ONE couple to marry? The law in this case is not ambiguous and anyone in 'a relationship' is fully aware of what they are/are not allowed to do. If they make the conscious choice to not follow Islam's teachings then they should be prepared to suffer the consequences, however ugly.

[Pineapple Thief]

^^^ *Just wondering* So Thiefie, do u also agree with the Ibadhis that when that has happened, married couples (who did zena before) who now also have kids should split up when they found out abt this ruling? Well this is what people have done. :s


At least for the sake of the kids, they ought to stay together. Thats what I think. But Im not too knowledgable in the subject.

[Bimzoori]

This is really messed up!!
Can someone explain more of this to me??




How much knowledge do we have compared to our 3ulama, to say that what they have passed on to us is "really messed up"... ?


Lets go back to OUr Holy Quran, verse 21 from Surat Al-Room: (translation)

"And among His Signs is this, that He created for you mates from among yourselves, that ye may dwell in tranquillity with them, and He has put love and mercy between your (hearts): verily in that are Signs for those who reflect"


Can there truely be any tranquility between two who couldn't resist shaitan's temptation and followed their ow desire to the extent of falling into Zina??

Is it easy to put your trust in a man who once shared moments of 7aram with you? what ensures that he did not spare the same momenst with other women?

marriage is a sacred bond in Islam "meethaqun '3aleeth" and should be surrounded with Allah's blessings from it's very start...


I firmly believe that the ruling is for the health of our communities...these restrictions are here for people to think before throwing themselves into the hell of ma3asee.. the firm ruling is there to protect girls from men who start with sweet promises and then bombard them with the very bitter truth "I cannot marry you.. you were very cheap"

Allah knows best.

[Arabian Princess]

Zena in this case is meant something else, and I guess it's having sex (which I am not sure if only that-please let me know-).
So is "zena" here? ONLY SEX, OR SOMETHING ELSE? THIS IS AN IMPORTANT QUESTION! --which I will be glad if I find the answer (took me ages to find out)--


yes, Zina here means having sex. Though in Ibadhi even touching a non mahram guy with desire is considered a form of Zina, but the Zina that they are talking about are the actual intercourse.

I checked the fatwa in a book for Shiekh alKhalili and it was simmiler to what Bimmi was saying about tranquality.

Here are some fatwa's regarding Zena maybe they will be useful (sorry they are in arabic):

- Kids of Zina (http://66.197.240.249/fatawi/2index.php?sid=33150&aktion=artikel&rubrik=006&id=176&lang=ar&highlight=الزنا)

- Touba from Zina (http://66.197.240.249/fatawi/2index.php?sid=33150&aktion=artikel&rubrik=010&id=147&lang=ar&highlight=الزنا)

[Delicate]

Thanks Arabian Princess for the link, it cleared lots of my conscious. I am just wondering, where did you get that link from, as it's not clear from the address?

[IceTea]

I asked for the definition of "zena".. and I was told that ONCE the reproductive organs of EACH individual JUST TOUCH, then it falls under "zena"! Not necessarily, having sex...
[/b]

I don't know who told you that but the Ibadhi view about this is as in below fatwa by our "mufti":

ما حكم من تزوج بامرأة كانت بينه وبينها علاقة محرمة دون الزنا ؟

الجواب :
جاء في الحديث عن النبي صلى الله عليه وسلّم ( العينان تزنيان واليدان تزنيان والرجلان تزنيان ويصدق ذلك ويكذبه الفرج ) ، ومعنى ذلك إن لم تكن مواقعة بالفرج فلا تترتب الأحكام التي تترتب على الزنا من هذه الأحكام حرمة هذه المرأة عليه ولكن مع ذلك التنزه هو أولى وأفضل ، والله تعالى أعلم .

So as you can see from above fatwa "zina" occur if the man make a physical contact (intercourse) with the woman. But it's better to avoide such marraige relations.




I find this verse very clear, and that a zani and zanya CAN get married to a zanya and zani.


You can't explain the Quran according to your desires. And also you need to complete the verse to the end to understand it. You can read below fatwa and you will understand the meaning of the verse.


السؤال

رجل تزوج امرأة وأنجب منها أولاداً ومضى على زواجها ثلاث سنوات وأن الرجل زنى بامرأة أخرى وأنجب منها ولداً وبعدما تزوجها بعد الولادة أخبر زوجته الأولى بما حدث ، وبعد ذلك أمره أهل الزوجة الأولى بأن زوجته الأولى محرمة عليه لأنه زنى بتلك المرأة وأخبرها بذلك ، وأمره أهل تلك الزوجة أن يطلق زوجته فطلقها طلقة واحدة رغماً عنه كما تقول ، وهي لا تريد الطلاق ولا هي تريد أن يطلق زوجته أم أولاده وبعدها طلق زوجته الثانية وهي الآن حامل بعد طلاقها ، فهل تكون الزوجة الأولى محرمة عليه للأبد ؟ وهل تكون محرمة بعدما يتزوجها رجل آخر ثم يطلقها ويتزوجها هو مرة أخرى ؟

الجواب :
على أي حال هو وقع في ورطة كبيرة عندما اعترف عندها بأنه زنا لأنه ليس له أن يكشف عندها مساؤه وإنما يطالب بأن يستتر بستر الله تعالى وكذا لو وقعت المرأة في مثل ذلك ، وهذا راجع إلى أن كل واحد من الزوجين لا يكون كفؤاً للزوج العفيف عندما يكون متلبساً بجريمة الزنا ، فالله تبارك وتعالى يقول ( الزاني لا ينكح إلا زانية أو مشركة والزانية لا ينكحها إلا زان أو مشرك وحرم ذلك على المؤمنين ) ، فقوله ( وحرم ذلك على المؤمنين ) إشارة إلى أن الزنا يتنافى مع الإيمان فمن تلبس بالزنا فقد خلع ثوب الإيمان من نفسه ، ولذلك جاء في الحديث عن النبي عليه وعلى آله وصحبه أفضل الصلاة والسلام ( لا يزني الزاني حين يزني وهو مؤمن ولا يسرق السارق حين يسرق وهو مؤمن ) ، وتأكد هذا الحكم فيما أنزله الله تبارك وتعالى في سورة المائدة ، وسورة المائدة من أواخر القرآن نزولاً فالله تعالى يقول فيها ( اليوم أحل لكم الطيبات وطعام الذين أتوا الكتاب حل لكم وطعامكم حل لهم والمحصنات من المؤمنات والمحصنات من الذين أوتوا الكتاب من قبلكم ) فأباح الله تعالى المحصنات من المؤمنات والمقصود بالمحصنات هنا العفائف ، فإن العفائف هن المباحات ، وكذلك المحصنات من الذين أوتوا الكتاب حتى ولو كن كتابيات لا بد من كونهن محصنات أي عفيفات ، فإن تزوج الرجل المسلم بالكتابية مشروط بأن تكون هي محصنة أي عفيفة ، فإن كانت غير ذلك لا يجوز له أن يتزوجها ، وعلى هذا فإن اعترافه بالزنا أمامها يسقط صفة الإحصان عنه ، وبما أنه تسقط عنه صفة الإحصان يكون في هذه الحالة تحرم عليه تلك المرأة عندنا ، وقيل تحرم عليه إن صدقته ، وقيل إن تدارك هو وكذّب نفسه قبل أن يواقعها لم تحرم عليه ، أما إن لم يكذّب نفسه فإنها تكون محرمة عليه ، وبناء على ذلك فإن هذه الحرمة ليست حرمة وقتية وإنما هي حرمة أبدية ولا يحلها أن يتزوجها من بعده زوج آخر ، والله تعالى أعلم


The verse says: " Let no man guilty of adultery or fornication marry any but a woman similarly guilty, or an Unbeliever: nor let any but such a man or an Unbeliever marry such a woman: to the Believers such a thing is forbidden." (An-Nur: 3). So the zina sin contradicts with the Iman and also as mentioned in the above Hadith which says that when the person make zina he is not a believer.

[Arabian Princess]

delect: check www.mofti.net

[monotheism]

Interestingly, the Hebrew word for fornication is zenus.

[Arabian Princess]

Do you have any certain ruling mono?

[Delicate]

Thanks IceTea.. That was the best explanation I ever found.
However, I e-mailed Sheikh Khalfan Esry about this and he replied.. however, he didn't give me the answer in detail, but he said he was going to arrange a printed copy for me.

Thanks Arby for the website address :)

[monotheism]

AP: I take it you mean to ask what is the Torah's view on the matter. Then answer is that if someone committed adultery and then divorced, or committed fornication (relations between two single people) she may legally marry anyone else, except a Kohen (Jewish priest descended from Aron, Moses' brother), because G-d requires higher standards for a Kohen.

As for the question: What if the other person is not so "experienced," i.e., has maintained his/her virginity, isn't it unfair? The answer is that G-d put them together for some cosmic reason, so although there may be challenges, if they both try hard, it can work out, and the main thing is to regret the past and make good resolutions for the future to have a large, healthy, thriving family, and do everything possible to implement these resolutions.

[IceTea]

Thanks IceTea.. That was the best explanation I ever found.


You are welcome, I hope the issue is clear now and recognize that Ibadhi fatwas and teachings are based on a strong evidences from Quran and sunnah.

[Haroundb]

This subject is difficult, and sensitive .To talk about it is fine , but we have to be aware not to state something which other people may take it as an answer. There is a different (Hokm) for each case, according to many aspects, naming few:

-Age…………………………………………..(How old is he/she?)
-Marital status……………………………….(Married/Un-Married)
-Sex ………………………………………… (Male / Female).
-Revealing/Un- Revealing………………… (Which one to follow)
-Witnesses of actions………………………. (Who did see what?)
-Condition of sexual interaction……………..(explicit description of the action)
-Presence of mind …………………………..(Mad, Drunk, Sleep…etc.).
-Forces………………………………………(did he/she forced to sex or not?)
-Religion ……………………………………(Muslim x Non-Muslim).
-Children…………………………………….(Who will be the father).
-Sickness……………………………………..(To bear the punishment )
-Amount of damage …………………………(Result from applying the punishment)
-Authority of taking action…………………..(Who will decide)
-Samples……………………………………..(What had happened in the dayes of Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) and his followers (Sahabah))

Many of those who will read these posts will come to shape some idea in their minds, which may not be the correct one, and which may affect their actions in life later .

We have to spare the answer for such question to someone who is qualified to answer such questions, and who will take the responsibility of what he says in front of Allah.

Take care all 

[Intellective]

yes, Zina here means having sex. Though in Ibadhi even touching a non mahram guy with desire is considered a form of Zina, but the Zina that they are talking about are the actual intercourse.



Very sensitive topic i must say.
===
I have read all the posts but something isnt clear to me here.

These kind of 2 ppl(zani & zaniyah) who commited this sin cant get married coz they had intercourse,,rite?

I once heard that who had a intercourse cant get married..true,but to those who didnt have the actually "intercourse" but their secret places touched could get married. Is that true?

Coz they have done everything but intercourse.

[IceTea]

I once heard that who had a intercourse cant get married..true,but to those who didnt have the actually "intercourse" but their secret places touched could get married. Is that true?




Intel, i f you read the first fatwa I posted above you will get the answer to your question.

[Arabian Princess]

Yes Intel, the fatwa says that as long as they didnt have the actual intercourse they could get married.

[miss gilani]

i was a bit bothered after reading everything. i wanted to ask tat me and my boyfriend used to kiss but we never had sex and never used to take off our clothes. our parents knew we wanted to get married and they were against our desicion.gradually they agreed but after tat we still used to kiss and a bit of heavvy petting once in a blue moon.we cant get married right away because of my education.does this mean we cant get married?

[amo_l_oman]

Which is exactly your education, if i may ask tat?

[cLueLess]

Islamically speaking, even a person who looks at sexually arousing acts (i.e. porn films, etc.) has committed zina, and a woman whose perfume arouses men’s desire has committed zina. I don’t see how all that could be zina while this is not:

we still used to kiss and a bit of heavvy petting once in a blue moon.we cant get married right away because of my education.does this mean we cant get married?

[EarThQuaKe]

Islamically speaking, even a person who looks at sexually arousing acts (i.e. porn films, etc.) has committed zina, and a woman whose perfume arouses men’s desire has committed zina. I don’t see how all that could be zina while this is not:

I hope I missunderstood you, but this is what I have to say. There is difference between zina with the eye and real zina as was stated in the hadeeth. I'll try to elaborate later.

"miss gilani" as far as I know, a man cannot marry a woman if they had a real intercourse. Please correct me if I am wrong guys.

[Arabian Princess]

as I understod from the hadith, its like how EQ explained. Zina Al-Jawari7 is different than the real Zina .. and its only the real Zina that forbids the two who did to get married.

[mimosa]

1. What do other sects say? Is it only Ibadhis who forbid marriage between a couple who have had intercourse?

2. The quoted verse says that a woman who has committed this sin may only marry another who has committed that sin or a "mushrik". Is this an exception to the rule on Muslim women marrying non-Muslims, or is is simply that she is no longer considered Muslim after that sin regardless of her faith or repentance?

[fatamooo]

But I heard that if a guy and girl here have sex, and the girl complains to the ministry or some authority, they force a marriage between the two... Isn't the ministry of Awqaf here based on Ibadhi teachings? Won't that be contradictory to all that was just stated?

[Arabian Princess]

fatamoo, where did you hear this?? I dont think its whats happening .. I know if they went to the police and got married charges would be taken .. but otherwise, I dont think it has anything to do with awqaf ..

[fatamooo]

I was shocked when I heard it too - but I thought that that's just the way things are done... that's what everyone I know tells me. My friend even pointed out a couple of people who got married in such a way, but I remember he said that in one case the girl did it on purpose and got pregnant as well in order to force him to get married to her...

[MorphaKnight]

^I hate these types of girls... I generally try to stay away from them.. lest if I stay in the US, then they will force me on jerry springer or maury only for them to make an @ss outof themselves :cute:

[fatamooo]

Lol I know - it's probably the lowest thing a girl can do besides full out prostitution.

[cLueLess]

What about a woman who was raped and got pregnant? Is she allowed to marry her rapist? Obviously they’ve had a sexual intercourse, but then she was only a victim. What are the chances the kid can be raised by both his parents in a loving environment? Or are the mother and child destined to live in shame for the rest of their lives?

[Lym]

To begin with , would a raped woman want to marry her rapist under any circumstance ?
Sorry , it just doesn't make sense.

[cLueLess]

A mother would sacrifice her happiness and whole life for her child’s happiness Empress. Does that make sense to you?

[MorphaKnight]

^that's a flat out lie! tell that to my mom! :p

[fatamooo]

If I got raped, I would rather get an abortion then put the baby in the hands of a rapist.

[cLueLess]

LoL, I wouldn’t know but that’s what we always read in school books and stuffs. :p
I really want to know the answer though.

[MorphaKnight]

meh it depends on how you interpret it. On one school they would say the mother has the right for abortion. On an another they will most probably value human life.

Actually what makes me wonder is that if people commited zina and repented and married someone who never commited zina then is that also not allowed? Plus how would a person know if their person actually did repent or not.

[HITMAN]

can anyone provide us with what the other schools say about it, like the sunna/shia...we know now what the abadhiya say only in this matter!

[MorphaKnight]

^it also depends on the level of the sect.. some can be extreme and others can be moderate.. maybe extreme sunni's are not in favour of abortion or maybe they are..

[HITMAN]

i was reffering to the marriage thing not the abortion!

[MorphaKnight]

hmmmm same thing I guess? :p I guess it comes down as to how people interpret it.

[HITMAN]

but hopefully someone will provide some solid sources!

[fatamooo]

I never heard of what shia or sunna say about this - it would be interesting to find out...

[Lym]

A mother would sacrifice her happiness and whole life for her child’s happiness Empress. Does that make sense to you?

No , it does not ! Happiness ...with a father who is rapist ! A violent criminal raising someone , would that someone be happy with such a despicable father?
To me , no mother would want to raise a kid with such a father. She would rather raise it herself if she wants the kid to be happy. :)

[Arabian Princess]

can anyone provide us with what the other schools say about it, like the sunna/shia...we know now what the abadhiya say only in this matter!

This is what I got from A sunni website:


Question :


I am a muslim that converted about three years ago. I am still learning and I have a question. I have been told that if I had sex after I converted I would not be able to islamically get married under the ways of islam. I wanted to know if this is true and if it is, is there any way to correct the deed that I am so very sorry for.

Answer :

Praise be to Allaah.

The one who has committed zina (fornication or adultery) has to repent, because zina is one of the major sins which are forbidden in Islam and for which a stern warning is issued to the one who does them. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And those who invoke not any other ilaah (god) along with Allaah, nor kill such person as Allaah has forbidden, except for just cause, nor commit illegal sexual intercourse and whoever does this shall receive the punishment.

The torment will be doubled to him on the Day of Resurrection, and he will abide therein in disgrace”

[al-Furqaan 25:68-69]

The punishment must be carried out in this world on the one who has committed zina (fornication or adultery), as Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“The fornicatress and the fornicator, flog each of them with a hundred stripes. Let not pity withhold you in their case, in a punishment prescribed by Allaah, if you believe in Allaah and the Last Day. And let a party of the believers witness their punishment”

[al-Noor 24:2]

It was narrated in a hadeeth from the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him): “Receive (teaching) from me, receive (teaching) from me. Allaah has ordained a way for those (women). When an unmarried male commits adultery with an unmarried female, (they should receive) one hundred lashes and banishment for one year. And in the case of a married male committing adultery with a married female, they shall receive one hundred lashes and be stoned to death.”

(Narrated by Muslim, al-Hudood, 3199).

Allaah has forbidden the believers to marry a person who commits zina, whether man or woman. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“The adulterer — fornicator marries not but an adulteress — fornicatress or a Mushrikah; and the adulteress –fornicatress, none marries her except an adulterer — fornicater or a Mushrik [and that means that the man who agrees to marry (have a sexual relation with) a Mushrikah (female polytheist, pagan or idolatress) or a prostitute, then surely, he is either an adulterer — fornicator, or a Mushrik (polytheist, pagan or idolater). And the woman who agrees to marry (have a sexual relation with) a Mushrik (polytheist, pagan or idolater) or an adulterer — fornicator, then she is either a prostitute or a Mushrikah (female polytheist, pagan, or idolatress)]. Such a thing is forbidden to the believers (of Islamic Monotheism)”

[al-Noor 24:3]

If the one who has committed zina repents to Allaah, truly and sincerely, then Allaah will forgive him or her, and overlook the sin. Allaah says, after mentioning the warning to those who commit zina:

“Except those who repent and believe (in Islamic Monotheism), and do righteous deeds; for those, Allaah will change their sins into good deeds, and Allaah is Oft Forgiving, Most Merciful.

And whosoever repents and does righteous good deeds; then verily, he repents towards Allaah with true repentance”

[al-Furqaan 25:70-71 – interpretation of the meaning]

If the person repents sincerely, then it becomes permissible for him or her to get married, after they give up this sin.

Shaykh Muhammad ibn Ibraaheem was asked about the ruling on getting married to a woman who has committed zina. He said: “it is not permissible to marry the woman who has committed adultery until she repents… if a man wants to marry her, he has to be sure that she is not pregnant, by waiting until she has a period before he does the marriage contract with her. If she is pregnant, then it is not permissible for him to marry her until she has given birth.”

See al-Fataawa al-Jaami’ah li’l-Mar’ah al-Muslimah, 2/584



Islam Q&A
Sheikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid (www.islam-qa.com)



So how I understand it, for Sunnis if a zani repented from thier mistake then they could get married to the person they commited zina with ..

with Ibadhiys, whoever rushes something and do it when its 7aram, its 7aram for them forever. من إستعجل الشيء قبل أوانه حرم عليه

another thing why Ibadhis beleive its haram, its because marraige is suppose to be sakina wa rahma (mercy and peace) and you wouldnt expect to trust a person who did this great mistake again and live with them.

[HITMAN]

thanx alot AP!

i am satisfied with was mentioned by the sunni school, but this issue shouldnt be taken lightly by ppl!

many might take it for granted and commit this big sin then ask for forgiveness and marry the same person!

but anway, ALLAH knows whats in the intention "NIYYA" of each one of us...and hes the one who forgives/punishes!

plus i believe that ALLAH forgives everything except for "SHIRK"!

[HITMAN]

AP, which sunni school has this fatwa? just for my knowledge!

[Arabian Princess]

I am not sure to tell you the truth .. but its Saudi if I am not mistaken

[mimosa]

Does anyone have any rulings from the Shi3a scholars?

[EarThQuaKe]

AP, which sunni school has this fatwa? just for my knowledge!

Unfortunately dear HITMAN, the sunni scholls have been scraped. We no longer have the divisions of Malki, Hanafi, Shaf3i and Hanbali. Nowadays, we have two major ones. Salafi (Wahabi or the Saudi school) and the Beloved Ash3ari misinterpreted as 9ofi (Egyption school). It will be very hard to return the rulings to one of the main 4 Imams (ratheya allah 3anhum ajma3een), but if you need the basics, then www.islam-qa.com is Saudi based (hanbali) with www.islamway.com. www.islamonline is qatari (Ash3ari or egyption based teachings i.e. Shaf3i. UAE is Malki, although Shariqah is saudi based.

Returning back to the topic. This is a fiqh issue and this is a question and answer by (Saeed Al-Qanobi -Ibadhi).

السؤال ( 15 ) :
ما هو الراجح في مسألة زواج الزاني بالتي زنى بها ، هل هي من مسائل الدين أم لا ؟

الجواب / هي من مسائل الرأي على الراجح لأن أدلتها ظنية ولابد في المسائل الدينية من أن تكون أدلتها قطعية والدليل القطعي هو ما جاء في كتاب الله تعالى أو تواتر به النقل عن النبي صلى الله عليه وعلى آله وسلم بشرط أن تكون دلالة ذلك الدليل على ما دل عليه من باب دلالة النص التي لا تحتمل معنى آخر ولا يوجد في هذه المسألة شيء من ذلك هذا ومن الجدير بالذكر أن القول بالتحريم في هذه القضية هو القول الراجح لأدلة مبسوطة في غير هذا الموضع والله تعالى أعلم
والسلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته

Although I understand what the question and answer are talking about, I cannot translate it. This is what I understood though.

Ibadhy sect say that an "Islamic ruling" comes from a solid basis, which does not accept any other ruling or interpretation. The ruling should come from Quran or the (mutawatir) of the hadeeth. This particular matter (Marriage of the zani and zaniah) is not a definite islamic ruling because there is no solid basis for it from quran and sunnah (mutawatir) and so different rulings may be valid. That said, the ibadhi go with the unapproval of their marriage because of what they gathered and understood from quran and sunnah.

Returning back to HITMAN, as far as I know there are seven rulings regarding this issue in the 'Sunni !!!' sect. It depends if the woman (zaniah) is pregnant or not and other things. My advice is go to what your sect say or better with what you feel is right.

I am 100% with the Ibadhi sect, but there should not be any fight between the different rulings because there is no solid prove that can rise one of them above the other. :)

[PhaHaDde]

i was a bit bothered after reading everything. i wanted to ask tat me and my boyfriend used to kiss but we never had sex and never used to take off our clothes. our parents knew we wanted to get married and they were against our desicion.gradually they agreed but after tat we still used to kiss and a bit of heavvy petting once in a blue moon.we cant get married right away because of my education.does this mean we cant get married?


Salam,

As long as there was no penetrations, then you did not commit the zina that does't allow you to marry your partner.

You are only not allowed to marry your partner if you had sexual intercourse with her, but this is not just it. Different mathhabs have different fatwas on this, some say you can marry her after tawba, and some say you cannot marry her even after tawba.

I have read many posts up there, and I can see many came up with different opinions on this issue.

I need an arabic keyboard, so I'll come back to this later and state what different mathhabs had to say about this. Will provide evidence to clear up the doubts!

Salam..