Human Made Religions

[Scottish]

Real religion vs. human made up religion?

hahahahahahahahahaha

It's all human made up. Why do you think God needs a book? LOL.

God did not come down and write the torah, bible or quran. Man wrote it from human prophets. LOL.

You always were good for a laugh.

[IceTea]

Your way of thinking is wired!


Originally posted by Scottish


It's all human made up. Why do you think God needs a book? LOL.


God doesn't need any book, Allah revealed books to humans through their prophets to guide them to the straight path.



God did not come down and write the torah, bible or quran. Man wrote it from human prophets. LOL.



You are wrong again, Torah, Bible and the Quran all Allah words revealed to the prophets PBUT through the angels. However, the first two books have been changed by human beings but the Quran remains one version and that is why it's the truth.

[Scottish]

LOL. Delusion.

They were written by men. God doesn't need books is right, so why follow them? LOL. God may have spoke to Mohammad through an angel, but according to Christians and Jews, they had a direct line.

And Mohammad was once lied to by Satan. He admitted that. How many other times that he didn't catch?

It's a riot really, to believe that there weren't rewrites before it was "revealed". LOL.

[IceTea]

Who is following books, it's human who are follwoing them not God. And I told you the reason so they worship Allah in the right way to stay in the right path which will lead to heaven.

Allah communicates with man in three ways, so as you can see no direct line as you call it:

It is not fitting for a man that Allah should speak to him except by inspiration, or from behind a veil, or by the sending of a messenger to reveal, with Allah's permission, what Allah wills: for He is Most High, Most Wise.

And by the 2nd way Allah talked to Prophet Mosas PBUH.

[Scottish]

Nobody fills me with entertainment like you. Trying to twist my words and you make no sense. Man wrote those books for other men. God did not write them. Men did. Period.

[IceTea]

But their original source is God.

Example: the Quran is Allah words revealed to the earth sky in one night (night of power) and revealed to prophet Mohammed PBUH via angel Gibreal in 23 years. And the prophet companions write the verse each time revealed to the prophet based on his instructions.

[Shinoda LP]

Originally posted by IceTea
But their original source is God.

Example: the Quran is Allah words revealed to the earth sky in one night (night of power) and revealed to prophet Mohammed PBUH via angel Gibreal in 23 years. And the prophet companions write the verse each time revealed to the prophet based on his instructions.

I hate to barge in, but could it have been humanly possible for an illeterate, normal human being like Prophet Muhammad to have forgotten one or a couple of those verses (revelations, of course), along the way?

Can't we simply stick on the topic and not worry about why Ice Tea is the perfect Muslim on board? :irk:

[Scottish]

Originally posted by IceTea
But their original source is God.

Example: the Quran is Allah words revealed to the earth sky in one night (night of power) and revealed to prophet Mohammed PBUH via angel Gibreal in 23 years. And the prophet companions write the verse each time revealed to the prophet based on his instructions.

LOL. How do you KNOW? It is, at best, creative plagiarism. I mean no disrespect, but I always am suspicious when illiterate people claim to hear the word of God.

[IceTea]

Originally posted by Shinoda LP
I hate to barge in, but could it have been humanly possible for an illeterate, normal human being like Prophet Muhammad to have forgotten one or a couple of those verses (revelations, of course), along the way?


No not possible, first of all he is a prophet second thing the angel Gibreal used to come to the prophet and recite the Quran with him. And also many of the prophet companions memorized it and final reason(the important one) is that the Quran is protected by Allah.



Can't we simply stick on the topic and not worry about why Ice Tea is the perfect Muslim on board? :irk:

I'm a normal muslim and I know nothing, hope this will make you happy. ;)

[IceTea]

The title is offending, the mod who put the title requested to remove my name from there.!

[Vamp]

This is getting boring,
Same idea, different titles being repeated over and over again. Scotish, I dont see this thread getting anywhere because Relegion (any religion), God, Prophets, Angels.. all are a matter of Faith.
Muslims (blieve it or not) do BELIEVE that there was an illiterate man, 1400 years ago named Mohamed, and that very man was chosen by the One Almighty God to be the last Prophet, so God (Allah) sent an Angel (yeah we believe in angels too!) named Gabril to reveal his words to that illiterate man, the words of God were later writtin in paper and together made the Holy book of muslims known today as Quran. We believe in all that and much much more!
And I totally understand that you might not be convinced by the idea that there is actually a God having the ultimate power to rule the universe and also I understand that the idea of God bringing all humanity together one day to punish whoever had done any bad deeds during his life time and reward other who behaved well and treated other people kindly might sound wierd to you, or maybe gives you a good laugh. I can understand all that and its fine by me as its your choice not to believe, but making a mockery out of our Religion, Prophet, Holy book is not acceptable.

You dont have the right to question anything you dont believe in simply because you DONT BELIEVE IN IT.
If you are interested in Islam or/and our Prophet (PBUH) you can ask any muslim here in a good way and im 100% sure that they will answer you with a big smile on their faces, other than that please keep your comments to your self.

[Scottish]

Ummm, I never started this thread, nor did I come up with the title. A mod moved this from another thread.

And yes, I do have the right to question anything, including my own faith. If you are so weak as to NOT question for fear of the answer, that is your problem and your weakness in faith. If you are angered at others questioning YOUR beliefs, again, it is YOUR problem and your weakness of faith that is at risk.

God has meant for us to question, otherwise we would still be eaten by predators better physically equipped then us. And we would all be satisfied with that.

And see how you assume Deep. I believe in God. I believe there are many paths to God. I believe that we all have individual paths to God and that faith of our paths is what leads to him ultimately. But you choose to believe that I am an unbeliever, because I don't believe your path to be mine.

I don't give a dam what you think is acceptable. I am not a child, and I don't think you are either. If you can't handle it, grow up. If your faith is so weak as to ignore the possibilities, then you need to understand that there is common sense and logic that needs to be applied to all of our faiths. Mine included. There is much illogic in my own beliefs because of faith. That doesn't make me NOT believe in God and the path I am on. Nor am I threatened when someone else says, "er, mate, you don't even have a prophet and no written book that tells you how to run your life. How?"

So, no, I won't keep my comments to myself. Your religion is strong enough and righteous enough to stand up to questioning. Otherwise, you are in a cult. And Islam is no cult. Yet the way you talk, it is.

Are you going to issue a death warrant to me? A fatwa because I question? Question your own motives behind your indignation.

As to whomever started this thread, I agree, Ice Teas name should not be in the title. It was not directed towards him as an individual.

[Pineapple Thief]

Interesting.

I was part of a message board that debated this to no end. It was interesting watching it all, reading the logical arguments from both sides, and inevitably the illogical ones as well. Yes, I believe everyone should question their faith, because only by doing that is their faith true, and not blind.

Im still a muslim, stronger than I was two years ago, and inevitably more free.

Im not quite sure what Scottish's view is on this, this is the first thread I read on this topic here, and it is quite strange. But hes free to believe what he wants. But it would be best if he didnt bash others. To debate is one thing, to stir up trouble is another.

[Vamp]

Scottish, you dont seem to be getting my point,

If I dont believe in Christianity, 100% sure its wrong.. why should I bother saying "Christianity is a total bullsh*t"?
What hindus do in their temples is non of my business you know.
And everybody has the right to question their faith and find their own answers, but questioning others beliefs just to show how bad it is, is a waste of time.

[Scottish]

You all better read again what I wrote. Nowhere have I ever said that Islam is total BS. I believe it is a valid faith as good as any other. I don't begrudge anyone their beliefs but feel it is foolish for those to demand that theirs is the only way.

To stir up trouble? If they can't handle it and act like accusory babies, that's their problem. Not mine.

Of course I question others, because it's a gauge on where it is. How can any of us become stronger in our faith without question, and without questions from outside?

Some dwell on HOW the religion was started instead of where it is NOW. It seriously doesn't matter HOW, but what the message IS. That is my point. Dam, get so tired of having to draw pictures. Maybe I should make a bloody video.

It never fails to amuse me how you all make assumptions on others without basis of fact to justify how others are somehow wrong. Here, I've been accused of not believing in God (I do), saying that Islam is BS (I didn't), or saying that it is all BS (I didn't).

You read what you want to read.

[IceTea]

Originally posted by Scottish

I believe in God. I believe there are many paths to God. I believe that we all have individual paths to God and that faith of our paths is what leads to him ultimately.

Ok Scottish, you said you believe in God, can you tell us why God created human beings?

And can you tell us more about the individulal paths you are talking about? And where will those paths will lead to?

[Scottish]

God created humans to be caretakers.

All paths lead to God. God is not so small as to make just one path. Even if one follows an evil path, it leads to God who punishes. Even you believe that.

Each individual path is exactly that. Individual. Even every person in Islam is on an individual path, because he is an individual, not a clone.

[Pineapple Thief]

Originally posted by Scottish
You all better read again what I wrote. Nowhere have I ever said that Islam is total BS. I believe it is a valid faith as good as any other. I don't begrudge anyone their beliefs but feel it is foolish for those to demand that theirs is the only way.

To stir up trouble? If they can't handle it and act like accusory babies, that's their problem. Not mine.

Of course I question others, because it's a gauge on where it is. How can any of us become stronger in our faith without question, and without questions from outside?

Some dwell on HOW the religion was started instead of where it is NOW. It seriously doesn't matter HOW, but what the message IS. That is my point. Dam, get so tired of having to draw pictures. Maybe I should make a bloody video.

It never fails to amuse me how you all make assumptions on others without basis of fact to justify how others are somehow wrong. Here, I've been accused of not believing in God (I do), saying that Islam is BS (I didn't), or saying that it is all BS (I didn't).

You read what you want to read.

Once again, I didnt make any assumptions, I just made a broad reply. You are, of course, right. I totally agree with you that it doesnt really matter how it started, just where it is today. Because ultimately, its all history. And while we learn from our mistakes (or we are supposed to), its ultimately the here and now that counts.

[Scottish]

Originally posted by Pineapple Thief
Once again, I didnt make any assumptions, I just made a broad reply. You are, of course, right. I totally agree with you that it doesnt really matter how it started, just where it is today. Because ultimately, its all history. And while we learn from our mistakes (or we are supposed to), its ultimately the here and now that counts.

We agree. :app:

[IceTea]

Originally posted by Scottish
God created humans to be caretakers.


So you are saying humans created to takecare of themselves and others around them, is that all?



All paths lead to God. God is not so small as to make just one path. Even if one follows an evil path, it leads to God who punishes. Even you believe that.


God path is straight, therefore humans should follow this straight path and not to follow other paths so not to deviate from the path of God.


And (know) that this is My path, the right one therefore follow it, and follow not (other) ways, for they will lead you away from His way; this He has enjoined you with that you may guard (against evil).



Each individual path is exactly that. Individual. Even every person in Islam is on an individual path, because he is an individual, not a clone.

That is true every person should follow the path which will attach him/her to Allah straight path. This straight path is the one which will lead to heaven.

[Scottish]

First, don't preach to me. There are no "straight" paths. All are filled with danger, all are filled with blocks that we must overcome. Life is not simple, and definitely not a straight path.


So you are saying humans created to takecare of themselves and others around them, is that all?

That's all. You think there is a greater thing we could do? What greater purpose is there then to take care of what is around us? and we can't even do that right.

[IceTea]

Originally posted by Scottish
First, don't preach to me. There are no "straight" paths. All are filled with danger, all are filled with blocks that we must overcome. Life is not simple, and definitely not a straight path.


I think you are confused between the "straight path" and what how easy/difficult for humans to follow it. Yes life is not simple and there are challenges (and even their are challenges from God himself to human which could be good or bad challenge but it's all a test) and their is also the Satan who is trying hard to mislead weak people away from this straight path and let them select other devaited paths.



That's all. You think there is a greater thing we could do? What greater purpose is there then to take care of what is around us? and we can't even do that right.

And why would God want to create the whole earth and let humans, jinn live in it just to takecare of themselves?

[Scottish]

No path is straight. The best destinations are the ones that you have to earn.

What makes you believe there is only ONE path? That seems rather narrow and intolerant, and certainly not what God would intend a thinking creature to be.

Not just take care of themselves. The things around you. Your cat, your dog, fish, trees, grass, water, ocean, forests, meadows, wetlands, animals, birds and the air you breath.

Now what is this about jinns?

And answer my previous questions, instead of asking me more, and not answering mine.

You think there is a greater thing we could do? What greater purpose is there then to take care of what is around us?

[Scorpio27]

Is not it better to have a book a constitution a guide line to move ahead rather then going astray? If there is no religion no bars no faith, we would dare far more, am I right? I don’t believe lot of things of religion but believe in creator. Without a creator creation is an impossible. We are doing perverted things and loosing ties, morality dying, care is vaporizing and many more. That’s why we are even losing our wish to stay alive! In some very upper society and prosperous country every 3 minute some one suicide. If we could live a controlled life and could keep the ties with family relatives and neighbors! We wouldn’t have such frustration.

I am not religious. But I support religion.
Who and how the religion is written doesn't matter, how that is helping social animals to stay on right / well tracks thats the point.
Take care

[IceTea]

Originally posted by Scottish
No path is straight.


Islam is the straight path and it's up to the person if he/she wants to follow it or follow other deviated paths based on the "free will".



What makes you believe there is only ONE path?

Because of:

And (know) that this is My path, the right one therefore follow it, and follow not (other) ways, for they will lead you away from His way; this He has enjoined you with that you may guard (against evil).

"Surely the (true) religion with Allah is Islam, and those to whom the Book had been given did not show opposition but after knowledge had come to them, out of envy among themselves; and whoever disbelieves in the communications of Allah then surely Allah is quick in reckoning"[3:19]

"And whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers".[3:85]




Not just take care of themselves. The things around you. Your cat, your dog, fish, trees, grass, water, ocean, forests, meadows, wetlands, animals, birds and the air you breath.


And do you think taking care of above things will be enough for a human being to enter the heaven and avoide the hell.



Now what is this about jinns?


They are one of Allah creations some of them also following the straight.



You think there is a greater thing we could do? What greater purpose is there then to take care of what is around us?

Taking care of what is around us is a requirement for us as human beings but that is not the main purpose of humans/jinns creation.

[Scottish]

I can pick apart so much.

Instead of quoting someone else, how come you don't use your own words? Rather simple to use a straight path and takes away all the fun.

They are not "deviate" paths, they are just as valid. Tell me, in YOUR words, not quotations, why you think, my living my life, not in Islam condemns me to hell and ****ation, when I contribute 4 months of every year working for free for others. How my wife will go to hell because she gives free medical for 4 months. How I will go to hell, because I work 50% of my working time for free for those less fortunate then I am. How my working my free time cleaning the beach, cleaning the paths. Helping taking care of my elderly neighbors livestock is assuredly a crime to blast me to hell and ****ation. How my wife and I donate to charities that we KNOW where it's going. How my wife and I are looking into adopting an orphan or two from Africa. What have YOU done in your religion to make the world a better place? Have you even done any charitable work? Do you know anybody that has taken 4 months of their work year to work for free building clinics, making a well, making a canal? Anything for free to help someone else?

Yes, that is enough, what more is there? What greater thing does mankind need? Do you think God is so vain as to require worship? Tell me then, what is the purpose of man. You only seem to tell me where I think I am wrong, not your opinion on the higher purpose of mankind.

As far as having a written "constitution" many societies advanced much faster without a torah, bible or quran. Some are still in existance today. Those religions were also around longer then any of the "big three". Back then, religions were subjective to the societies in which they existed.

Right and wrong has never really changed in any religion.

[IceTea]

What you and your wife have done is all good and could be turned to a good deeds if the intention of doing such jobs is purely to Allah only. Which means you should believe in Allah and believing in Allah required you to believe in his angels, his books, his prophets, the final day. Otherwsie all what you have done will be like:-


[42:39]But the Unbelievers,- their deeds are like a mirage in sandy deserts, which the man parched with thirst mistakes for water; until when he comes up to it, he finds it to be nothing: But he finds Allah (ever) with him, and Allah will pay him his account: and Allah is swift in taking account.

[42:40]Or like utter darkness in the deep sea: there covers it a wave above which is another wave, above which is a cloud, (layers of) utter darkness one above another; when he holds out his hand, he is almost unable to see it; and to whomsoever Allah does not give light, he has no light.

The question is do you want all what you have done during your life to disapear like that?

[IceTea]

Originally posted by Scottish

As far as having a written "constitution" many societies advanced much faster without a torah, bible or quran. Some are still in existance today. Those religions were also around longer then any of the "big three". Back then, religions were subjective to the societies in which they existed.



The Quran is a holy book and it's a guidence to humanity to the straight path in this life and the hereafter. Other humans might write constitutions but it's only for this life and also it's subject to mistakes, not perfect and can be only suitable for a society and not applicable for others.

[Scottish]

What you and your wife have done is all good and could be turned to a good deeds if the intention of doing such jobs is purely to Allah only. Which means you should believe in Allah and believing in Allah required you to believe in his angels, his books, his prophets, the final day. Otherwsie all what you have done will be like:-

This is what pisses me off. You EXPECT me to respect your religion, but you do NOT respect mine. It is not PURELY TO ALLAH, it is for the sake of HUMANITY. You are doing NOTHING. You answer none of my questions but only make quotations, which indicates to me you are of feeble mind.

I don't believe what you believe. I don't believe in your "book". I do believe in God and feel that I'm serving his purpose by GIVING as much as me as I can while not neglecting my own family. But I'm doing it to save people, not to "buy" my way into heaven. My religion does not believe in heaven or hell.

So please, stop trying to "convert" me. You attempt to twist YOUR beliefs onto someone else, especially when you do NOTHING but quote someone elses words.

Try your own, you may get more respect out of me.

For those of you that think I'm harsh, you know who you are. Condemn your BROTHER for disrespecting my beliefs and his lame attempts at converting me, and twisting everything to make it look as though I am somehow doomed to hell because I do good things in the name of HUMANITY.

And try getting him to answer my questions. He has yet to answer any. The sign of a feeble and weak faith.

[X-press]

Originally posted by Scottish


hahahahahahahahahaha

It's all human made up. Why do you think God needs a book? LOL.

God did not come down and write the torah, bible or quran. Man wrote it from human prophets. LOL.

You always were good for a laugh.

I will not try to convince you Scottish that what you said is offensive for those who, unlike you, believe in the revelations of God, in his Prophets and in his book.

All I can say is may God forgive you for making fun of His revelations and may HE save you from the punishment of Hellfire, as you are surely among the lost one. (Amen)

[Scottish]

Originally posted by X-press
I will not try to convince you Scottish that what you said is offensive for those who, unlike you, believe in the revelations of God, in his Prophets and in his book.

All I can say is may God forgive you for making fun of His revelations and may HE save you from the punishment of Hellfire, as you are surely among the lost one. (Amen)

Give me a break. I am not lost. My faith in God is stronger then most of you, because I don't require a book or rote in order to believe in God and his works and deeds. His revelations are in my heart, not through the written words of someone else. God guides my hand to treat others fairly, regardless of their beliefs, and to respect others beliefs.

You, on the other other hand, disrespect my religious beliefs, and pray for your own soul. Mine is safe, you seem to think that because I am not muslim I'm doomed?

I don't make fun of others, just think it is ridiculous for those that believe theirs it the only way.

Think of an artisan. Does every painter paint the same way? If every body knew what to do, we'd all be great painters. We're not.

Our path to God is individual. Not based on a single religion. I'm supremely OFFENDED, that you would say what you have Xpress. I don't begrudge you your faith or your religion. Nor do I believe you are doomed for following it.

I'm very surprised (not really), by your bias, intolerance and condemnation. But ya know what? That is your way, so I understand it.

[X-press]

[size=1]Originally posted by Scottish
But you choose to believe that I am an unbeliever, because I don't believe your path to be mine.

Scottish, with all my respect, you are an unbeliever for the simple reason that you make fun of something you are not 100% sure of which are the direct revelations of God.

Are you yourself God to say that HIS Books are fake? How can a believer laughs so loudly and make a fool mokery of Our Creator's Creations?

[Scottish]

Originally posted by X-press
Scottish, with all my respect, you are an unbeliever for the simple reason that you make fun of something you are not 100% sure of which are the direct revelations of God.

Are you yourself God to say that HIS Books are fake? How can a believer laughs so loudly and make a fool mokery of Our Creator's Creations?

I am a believe in God, not Islam.

Are you yourself God to say that those books are real?

I mock those that don't question, assuredly God wants us to question. There is too much blood in your book. Murder in his name. How can you NOT question.

That does not validate or invalidate.

I am not convinced that it is Gods creation. How can I when it was not God who wrote it. From your own beliefs, it is the Angel Gabriel who relayed it.

I don't believe God is anywhere as sensitive as some of you, or myself. God has tough skin and can see your faith, or weaknesses.

[X-press]

Originally posted by Scottish
I'm supremely OFFENDED, that you would say what you have Xpress. I don't begrudge you your faith or your religion. Nor do I believe you are doomed for following it.

I do not condemn you Scottish...you wrote your own path in this thread which is to laugh LOUD at Our Creator's 3 Books (The Torah, the Bible and the Quran).

I am sorry to say that you have absolutely NO RESPECT for the 3 main monotheist religions and your mokery above is clear proof of that, so accept the wrong your hands type and don't blame it on me or on anyone else!

Do you expect us to have a good laugh with you? I doubt you will see that in this forum. If anyone have to be 'supremely OFFENDED' it is us the muslims members of this board and any outside believers reading your posts.

As a reminder:


Rule#16: Religion: The Sabla will not tolerate any disrespect towards Islam and any other religions, nor will it allow any insult towards God or his prophets. The Administration and the moderators have the right to edit or remove any disrespectful post. On the first attempt, a member will get a warning, but if persistent, he or she will get a ban.

[Scottish]

Waaaaa.

I've always disliked those that preach and expect others to have their beliefs. People get murdered and nobody says anything by the likes of people like you.

Good people who say and do nothing while their more bloodthirsty believers murder and pillage with the belief that they are doing it in Gods name.

Meanwhile, God weeps with the senseless loss of his creations. Such beautiful words, used as weapons and bludgeons in the name of God.

As I said, I have my beliefs, you choose to condemn, while I praise you in your beliefs. Which one of us is truly on the right path? Which one of us deviates, when I accept yours, and you condemn mine? What does it say of us as individuals when I accept your religion and your beliefs, while you condemn mine?

This is rather sad. That is what you were taught, so I don't blame you.

Reread rule #16, because it is my religion that you are spitting on.

[NaBHaN]

Scottish , I just find it rather sad that u have to 'mock' in order to get your msg across. you are no different than Ice tea ( whom I really dont like his methods when it comes to preaching about islam) when u do that.

respect..and u shall gain respect in return.. otherwise.. your words will only go through one ear and out from the other.

:)

[X-press]

I am sorry Scottish, but you are so full of hatrage for us that your eyes are blurred and you can't see clearly. Where did I "spit" at your religion? First, what religion do you have when you laugh loud at the 3 monotheists religions of this world? Are you Buddhist, mormon, Hindu? Believing simply in God (period) is not a religion, it is a belief.


Originally posted by Scottish
Waaaaa.


People get murdered and nobody says anything by the likes of people like you.

Good people who say and do nothing while their more bloodthirsty believers murder and pillage with the belief that they are doing it in Gods name.

Such beautiful words, used as weapons and bludgeons in the name of God.

What "murder, bloodthirsty believer, actions in the name of God" have to do with this thread??? What is exactly your message here Scottish? Look at what your hands are typing...who is laughing loudly and "spitting" at who here?

[Scottish]

Name me once that I have quoted my own religion. Name me once that I told any of you that you are wrong for following your religion to the best of your abilities. Show me once where I said that Islam is wrong. Show me once where I have said Christianity or Judaism is wrong. Show me once where I have ever told any of you that you are falling into "hell".

Show me once where I have said that Islam is a false belief or religion?

I have never said any of those things, because I believe all religion is good. Christianity, Judaism and Islam. All good for those that follow the tenets of their religion, that is the Torah, the Bible and the Quran.

I merely tell people to question it, because the best thing it can do, is strengthen your religion because of your faith, and the worst thing it can do is strengthen your religion because you will rely more on faith.

What an evil message.

Follow your religion of tolerance, not hatred, fear, and blood.

[Scottish]

Hatred for whom? Muslims? Islam? I don't think so. By the way, hatred is very wasted and misused word. I don't hate. Never have.

I dislike those that wish to paint a broad stripe, and accuse others of being non-believers. I have told my religious beliefs in another thread. I told where I was also raised in the Free Church of Scotland which is a Protestant. Where I irritated my Vicar because I was always full of questions. But he never accused me of not believing in God.

Because through all my questions, my faith in God gets stronger. By the way my progenitors were slaughtered. Hunted down. Etc.

When you read about basic Christian beliefs, you read ours. The trinity, are the 3 that are one.

The three big religions are based on the same religious belief but altered to fit the society in which it is applied. There is nothing wrong with that, so long as the message is received and used.

[NaBHaN]

Originally posted by Scottish


The three big religions are based on the same religious belief but altered to fit the society in which it is applied. There is nothing wrong with that, so long as the message is received and used.

well thats where u go wrong. the quran has never been altered. Thats what we muslims KNOW FOR A FACT.. cause its OUR religion. Do u seriously expect us to nod our head and just accept ya'll bashing our religion?

[Scottish]

Originally posted by NaBHaN
well thats where u go wrong. the quran has never been altered. Thats what we muslims KNOW FOR A FACT.. cause its OUR religion. Do u seriously expect us to nod our head and just accept ya'll bashing our religion?

I've never said it was altered. It can be a completely unedited version never changed a single word for 1400 years. Fine. I accept that, where did it come from with so much in common with Judaism and Christianity?

It is a perfect book for that area back then.

Do you seriously expect me to sit by here while you all continue to assume?

Look. According to you, the Quran was written by wise men, as related by Mohammad, who was told by the Archangel Gabriel.

Historically, we know that Gabriel was a messenger of God. So far, so good.

There are many things in common in SOME ways between Christianity and Islam. The Archangel Gabriel being the primary one.

So, saying so, there is much crossover between Christianity and Islam. I'm ok with that. But obviously they are not the same, otherwise you would not be Muslims, you would be Christians. The word was "changed" to fit the people of Mohammad. Since it was written in the quran, it has never changed. I've never disputed that.

So not sure where you got that from.

[X-press]

Originally posted by Scottish
What an evil message.

Follow your religion of tolerance, not hatred, fear, and blood.

Scottish,you clearly showed all of us that you do not believe that Islam is a religion of tolerance, that we preach fear and have blood on our hands!

More, you showed us that Islam, Christianity and Judaism are all 3 based on fake words...on 3 books that are man-made and there only to fool of of us. I guess your message is indeed very angelic!

[X-press]

Originally posted by Scottish

There are many things in common in SOME ways between Christianity and Islam. The Archangel Gabriel being the primary one.

If you don't believe in the revelations of Angel Gabriel to the Prophets, why do you even believe in his existence?

For anyone with doubt, it makes more sense to believe in 3 books which you can read with your own eyes, than in an angel you haven't seen....

[Scottish]

Originally posted by X-press
Scottish,you clearly showed all of us that you do not believe that Islam is a religion of tolerance, that we preach fear and have blood on our hands!

More, you showed us that Islam, Christianity and Judaism are all 3 based on fake words...on 3 books that are man-made and there only to fool of of us. I guess your message is indeed very angelic!

LOL. Many people have died in the name of Islam lately, but it is only minor league to those that have died in the name of Christianity. This is not a reflection of the religion (as I've stated in the past) but in its adherents lust for power.

We all have blood on our hands Xpress. All of us. I have the unfortunate knowledge of seeing first hand what others have done in the name of their religion. Not just Islam.

I have also said, that whether the 3 books are based on divine intervention or good will, they are still valid.

I have also talked about literal translation and analogy.

I guess you know what you want to know.

[Raed]

Scot... can I step in here..

Sir, I have learned not to force my religion upon others. The truth is there for those who seek it. Its when we start marketing it kinda gets fuzzy, blurry and in the gray area.. You seem to know about Islam, and you are happy with your faith. I see no reason to market my version of faith to you.


this is why I always remind myself with the following verse when I see arguments like this taking place :

ÝóáöÐóáößó ÝóÇÏúÚõ æóÇÓúÊóÞöãú ßóãóÇ ÃõãöÑúÊó æóáóÇ ÊóÊøóÈöÚú ÃóåúæóÇÁåõãú æóÞõáú ÂãóäÊõ ÈöãóÇ ÃóäÒóáó Çááøóåõ ãöä ßöÊóÇÈò æóÃõãöÑúÊõ áöÃóÚúÏöáó Èóíúäóßõãõ Çááøóåõ ÑóÈøõäóÇ æóÑóÈøõßõãú áóäóÇ ÃóÚúãóÇáõäóÇ æóáóßõãú ÃóÚúãóÇáõßõãú áóÇ ÍõÌøóÉó ÈóíúäóäóÇ æóÈóíúäóßõãõ Çááøóåõ íóÌúãóÚõ ÈóíúäóäóÇ æóÅöáóíúåö ÇáúãóÕöíÑõ (15)

15. Now then, for that (reason), call (them to the Faith), and stand steadfast as thou art commanded, nor follow thou their vain desires; but say: "I believe in the Book which Allah has sent down; and I am commanded to judge justly between you. Allah is our Lord and your Lord: for us (is the responsibility for) our deeds, and for you for your deeds. There is no contention between us and you. Allah will bring us together, and to Him is (our) Final Goal.


Worst case scenario, after death :

1- there is nothing. no heaven no hell. No God "Darwin was right".

2- there is heaven and hell, sadly I had the wrong belief! As such I parish in hell.

I will go with Islam, betting my whole life on it. You might not... you chose a different horse! free will init? why do we need to prove each other wrong ? lets just wait and see at the end of the race "it makes it more fun that way" :hyper:

[Scottish]

Originally posted by X-press
If you don't believe in the revelations of Angel Gabriel to the Prophets, why do you even believe in his existence?

For anyone with doubt, it makes more sense to believe in 3 books which you can read with your own eyes, than in an angel you haven't seen....

Isn't that the most basic tenent of faith? To believe without seeing? You have a book that you believe in, and have faith in. That's fine. Works for you.

I dont need it to have faith. That's something you can't see, nor understand apparently. Or tolerate.

Whether I believe in the revelations as written, I have troubles with, because I've seen too many important messages messed up by the interpretation of man.

If one receives solace and faith through them, that is fine for them. Don't force me to, or judge me for not.


Sir, I have learned not to force my religion upon others. The truth is there for those who seek it. Its when we start marketing it kinda gets fuzzy, blurry and in the gray area.. You seem to know about Islam, and you are happy with your faith. I see no reason to market my version of faith to you.

That is precisely my point. Peace be to you Raed.

[IceTea]

Originally posted by Scottish
This is what pisses me off. You EXPECT me to respect your religion, but you do NOT respect mine. It is not PURELY TO ALLAH, it is for the sake of HUMANITY. You are doing NOTHING. You answer none of my questions but only make quotations, which indicates to me you are of feeble mind.


I didn't disrespect any of your own beliefs, and everything should be purely to Allah but this desn't contradict with doing it for the sake of helping humans.

And which questions you are talking about, I have answered all of your questions.



I don't believe what you believe. I don't believe in your "book". I do believe in God and feel that I'm serving his purpose by GIVING as much as me as I can while not neglecting my own family. But I'm doing it to save people, not to "buy" my way into heaven. My religion does not believe in heaven or hell.


I respect your beliefs, after all human beings have a free will and will be judged on the final day.



So please, stop trying to "convert" me. You attempt to twist YOUR beliefs onto someone else, especially when you do NOTHING but quote someone elses words.


I'm not trying to convert you as you claim, I'm just presenting to you the truth and I'm quoting Allah words which you believe in him as you say.And if you convert to Islam it will be by the will of Allah (who guide people to the straight path) and not because of me.

[Scottish]

What is the purpose of man then? I asked that a long time ago.

[IceTea]

To be a khalif or viceroy in the earth and worship Allah.

[Scottish]

We were created to worship? That's rather vain. I suspect God had greater plans for us then that.

[IceTea]

Being a khalif in the earth means alot of things, it means you enjoy living this life, build a family, work hard, help people and alot of other things. However all is that is done while knowing the main objective of being khalif in the earth is to worship the creator. And yes there are rewards there will be a heaven and hell. Basically a human being should aim for the happiness in this life and the hereafter. What does a human being want more than that.

[Scottish]

Basically, Ice Tea, that's all a man or woman needs. Basically, you are saying the same thing I am. Caretakers.

We all have different needs, and perhaps you and I see on the same level in many different ways. I don't do things to "worship the creator" as much as to respect and do what I feel he would want me to do.

Perhaps we're not as far apart as we think we are.

You know, you make more sense when you speak from the heart then when you quote scripture. You should do more of it.

[IceTea]

Do you find it too much to worship your creator with pure intention. He created the earth for us free to live in it, he doesn't want any money like us humans we keep on buying/selling lands in this earth which belongs to God. He just want us to say thank you God for everything and want us only to worship him to reach to the happiness in the hereafter. If Allah want us to live in this life forerver then he will not take our souls and we will not die, we will be living forever. But Allah made this life temporary for us to live in, work hard, follow his path which will take us to a completely different life and permenant one.

[Scottish]

This is our religious difference Ice Tea. My religion doesn't desire "worship" as you do it. I have certain demands made upon me. My religion doesn't believe in ownership of lands, because it simply doesn't belong to us. However, the laws of man do require it. So, my family has our ancestral land, and we purchase additional land, and free it to the public.

It's virtually the same thing though. It's semantics when you get down to it. We can talk of the differences in our religions, but seems like many of the achievements required, are the same.

[X-press]

Originally posted by X-press

I will not try to convince you Scottish that what you said is offensive for those who, unlike you, believe in the revelations of God, in his Prophets and in his book.

All I can say is may God forgive you for making fun of His revelations and may HE save you from the punishment of Hellfire, as you are surely among the lost one. (Amen)

I just want to say that when I wrote my post quoted above, I really thought that I had the right to ask for God's forgiveness for Scottish not believing in God's Holy Books (or revelations) and as a muslim, I also really believed that I had the right to say that he was among the lost one.

Though as a believer I found his post really insulting, it seems I didn't have the right to answer like that simply because he doesn't belong to the same faith than me. I also understood that if Scottish was a muslim, only then would I have the right to tell him that he was on the wrong path or ask for God to forgive him.

It is only after extensive talk with some muslims and non-muslims too that I came to the realization that me, or any muslims, have no right to talk like that to someone from another faith.

http://www.englishsabla.com/boy-i/Smilies/arrow.gif My intention where not at all to insult and I really apologize if Scottish you took it that way.

From today, I promise to make an effort towards the non-muslims and I hope the same will be done from their side too ;).

[Amir]

Scottish..

Is what you mean:

God sent different messengers to people, but we human differed in our acceptance of what he asked us to do. In later stage religions broke out to be different.

If you say it that way I believe that is right. As god sent all the prophets for one mission, but because of us human being, our arrogance, our un acceptance of the truth everything broke out to different beliefs.

Agreed?

[IceTea]

Originally posted by Scottish
This is our religious difference Ice Tea. My religion doesn't desire "worship" as you do it. I have certain demands made upon me. My religion doesn't believe in ownership of lands, because it simply doesn't belong to us. However, the laws of man do require it. So, my family has our ancestral land, and we purchase additional land, and free it to the public.

It's virtually the same thing though. It's semantics when you get down to it. We can talk of the differences in our religions, but seems like many of the achievements required, are the same.

Ok then can you answer the followings please:

1. What is the source of your religion, i.e who invented it and does it has any name?

2. If the answer to above question that your religion is humans then do you agree to call it "human made" religion?

3. If the answer to above question is yes then which one will you trust more a "human made" religion or a religion from God?

4. What makes you sure you are following the right religion and there is no evidence from God (who you believe in) about it and it's principles?

[Shinoda LP]

IceTea,

I have a few questions for you. Try to answer them (without answering with a question, of course) please?

1. How are you sure that Quran was indeed a revelation by Allah, other than for it being mentioned in the Quran itself? Muhammad and his friends can not be held as credible witnesses, since this happened at least 1400 years ago.

2. Is it possible for an illiterate person to forget stuff that he/she has repeatedly been fed into? I mean, if I keep repeating a very complex equation to a person, what is the probability of the person remembering it IF that person can't read or write. Possible that he/she could have made a mistake, even if he/she had told some literate friend of his/hers?

[Scorpio27]

Sorry for inturruption.
I am not supporting Scott or others who are opposing You dear .
IceTea

But the question they are doing is natural. The creator & creation of her is complex, so such question often comes to our mind.


Please don't counter question, just put the answer of your question, it will help them/us to understand more clearly.

You can't force someone to believe your beliefs.


Being a Muslim me to have few such Question. I had a thread "Slavery in Islam"..


Am not I a Muslim Dear ?:bang:

[IceTea]

Originally posted by Shinoda LP
IceTea,

I have a few questions for you. Try to answer them (without answering with a question, of course) please?

1. How are you sure that Quran was indeed a revelation by Allah, other than for it being mentioned in the Quran itself? Muhammad and his friends can not be held as credible witnesses, since this happened at least 1400 years ago.

2. Is it possible for an illiterate person to forget stuff that he/she has repeatedly been fed into? I mean, if I keep repeating a very complex equation to a person, what is the probability of the person remembering it IF that person can't read or write. Possible that he/she could have made a mistake, even if he/she had told some literate friend of his/hers?

1. Becaue everything in the Quran is the truth, there is no human being nor jinn (I know you don't believe in them but they are with us in this earth) can produce something similar to the Quran, the Quran is full of miracles and humans can't bring or make miracles and the science findings doesn't contradict with the Quran miracles.

As for the 2nd question you have asked me this question before and I answered.

PS: we are discussing about disrespect to Islam in XP thread and what you wrote above Muhammad and his friends can not be held as credible witnesses is an example of disrespect to our Prophet PBUH.!

[Scorpio27]

I used to call majority of the western people perverted based on their sexual life. But now I don't tell because I found the slavery and sex issue in Islam, which I no way can support neither I can tolerate. I am ashamed seeing such thing in Islam. I believe Islam is better then lot of other religion. I don't find Islam is 100% perfect.

This is my opinion. Never mind.:scary:

[Shinoda LP]

I asked you a "how" question on Q1. and you replied with "because the Quran is right".

Okay.

Regarding the second question, what I intended was:- "Muhammad had friends who he told his revelations to" should be a credible answer since it happened 1400 years ago! How is that insulting, to say the least?!

Anyways, I'm off ... nighty night!

[Scottish]

First, I would point out where we have similarities, and point out to others how you continue to see differences. This is YOUR attempt to make another religion look false, while I simply say your religion is your way.


Originally posted by IceTea
1. What is the source of your religion, i.e who invented it and does it has any name?

I grew up within the Free Church of Scotland and Neo-Paganism. Obviously there is alot of misconception. It originated with the Keltis, where there were no written "rules" of worship, so there were wildly different ways of worshipping. From human sacrifices on one side of the spectrum, to simple nature based on the other. The last known human sacrifice was in 46 BC, in where is now Germany. The only thing that remained somewhat the same were the Gods when the religion stretched from Ireland, north to Norway, all the way across to Russia, south to the roman borders. Obviously 2100 years of persecution and progress have changed the things we do. There are no sacrifices, etc. Now, it's more nature based, arboreum, stewardship, etc. Not surprised you couldn't figure it out with the information you had. Others had figured it out very easily.


2. If the answer to above question that your religion is humans then do you agree to call it "human made" religion?

All religions are human made. A reaction to how we perceive things.



3. If the answer to above question is yes then which one will you trust more a "human made" religion or a religion from God?

All religions are man made, all religions are inspired by God. Is this all very confusing to you? It seems you are very stuck on that fact. You think it is disrespectful. It isn't. Is it disrespectful to you assuming that every other religion is flawed and wrong?

Look at it this way. There is a theory in which God uses messengers instead of direct word because His voice is so magnificent, mere humans would die by it's very hearing.

So, there is one go between an Archangel.

Second thing to consider, is that God may inspire, but God did not write. And must be written to where we must understand.

I write a technical manual, I give it verbally to my son, who waits a few days, and tells it to my other son, who waits for a few days, and gives it to my other son who writes it down. Human fallibility, no matter how faithful my son is, he is bound to post his own opinion and belief of what he heard.

Heck, we as humans miss lyrics of songs we hear all the time.

The fact that you believe, is fine for you.


4. What makes you sure you are following the right religion and there is no evidence from God (who you believe in) about it and it's principles? [/B]

What makes any of us believe we are following the right path? It's called faith. And there is always evidence of God. You should know that. When our principles are to accept all others regardless of color, race or religion, it's a pretty good principle. When we are taught to accept all things as they are, and allow it's natural flow of growth, it's a pretty good principle. You don't train a cow to be a horse.

So, the persecution of our religion started over 2100 years ago, with the Romans. The Greeks feared the Keltis as well. That's pretty old.

There is a revival of the religion now, and is very much misunderstood by many. It is NOT "wicca" which is odd to say the least to my way of thinking. Lots of people coming up with their own versions. People wishing to tap back into their old spiritual roots.

Trinity, the three Goddesses, etc.