What are the first references to Allah ?

[Wanderer]

We all know that Allah is the god praised in the Quran - reveled to Mohammed some 1400 years ago. It also appears that Allah was known to man before then too.

However, to my knowledge, the Jewish Torah and the Christian Gospels do not mention Allah as a proper name of God. I do not know if pre-Islamic poetry mentions Allah.

My question then is what are the earliest historical references to Allah ?

[IceTea]

Allah is the Islamic name of God.

[Wanderer]

Originally posted by IceTea
Allah is the Islamic name of God.


Duh.


Now put this tidbit of information into some context so it is related to this thread.

Or are you argueing that the name "Allah" is only 1400 years old ?

[Vamp]

The name ''Allah'' was known before the advent of Islam, remember that the Prophet's (PBUH) father name was Abd-Allah.

Wanderer, do you have any info regarding ''older'' names of Allah?
would be interesting to read.

[Arabian Princess]

wanderer, if this thread about moongod nonesense .. please dont continue with it .. coz it doesnt represnt the muslim beleife so its nothing to do with the Name Allah.


Allah is drived from - ilah - which means god.

[Wanderer]

Originally posted by DeepBlueSea
The name ''Allah'' was known before the advent of Islam, remember that the Prophet's (PBUH) father name was Abd-Allah.

Wanderer, do you have any info regarding ''older'' names of Allah?
would be interesting to read.


Thanks, DeepBlue Sea, yours is a meaningful contribution to this thread.

Here we may have good evidence of the name Allah being respected by some Arabs almost 100 years before Islam is established.

From what source do we get the Prophet's father's name ? Hadith ?

[Wanderer]

Originally posted by Arabian Princess
wanderer, if this thread about moongod nonesense .. please dont continue with it .. coz it doesnt represnt the muslim beleife so its nothing to do with the Name Allah.


I don't care what current Muslim belief is or isn't. I'm interested in the historical source of the name of a god as Allah. But I understand completely if you are too afraid to look into this matter.

Why did you bring up Moon gods in this thread about the earliest mention of the name Allah ?



Originally posted by Arabian Princess

Allah is drived from - ilah - which means god.


OK good. So is Allah more of a title than a name ? It doesn't make sense as a proper name if it is derived from a preIslamic generic word for god !

If it's a title, then I see how there could be some confusion if earlier preIslamic gods were also given the title "Allah" at one time of another.

So in your opinion which is it most likely - a title derived from "ilah" or a proper name derived from "ilah" ?

[amo_l_oman]

If the thread bothers or scares some people, it can be moved in Education section, since Wandy interest is historical.

[Cetacea]

Al is the definitive article in Arabic, like ‘the’ in English, and ilah means God. Allah means The God.
My guess is that before the Prophet’s http://www.booh.com/temp/pbuh.gif time, people called all kinds of things ilah(God), Moon God, Tree God, Sun God, Flower God, and whatever God. And the Prophethttp://www.booh.com/temp/pbuh.gif decided that only The God could be worshiped from then on.
But this theory doesn’t explain the name Abdu-Allah before Islam. :lost:

[Blue_Chi]

Thinking about it now. Al-Lah means The God, just like what Cetacea said. We simply call our God: God. Very simply, direct to the point, and clear. ;)

People before Mohammed believed in God, but they didn't believe that he was the ONLY one. Abd Allah (Abdullah) means, the worshiper of God, (or the slave of God)

What people of Quraish (the tribe of Mohammed) believed was that God had "partners" (Shurakaa') that are also God, there were the stone Gods that they worshiped. The Shahada (What you say when you want to become a Muslim is "I declare that there is ONLY ONE God, on his own and he has no partners, and I declare that his prophet is Mohammed."

So basically, the word allah means, God. And people before Mohammed believed in him and knew him, but they also believed in their stone gods as well, that is why it was normal to find someone called the worshiper of God (Allah), even before Mohammed because Allah was meant God. The plural of Allah is Aliha, which is the word we use to describe Greek Gods, Stone Gods, etc. So Allah basically means God.

Another word that we use for God in Arabic is "Rab" which literally mean "Master". The master of the house is called "Rab Al Manzil". (Used to describe the husband/father, and Rabat Al Manzil is the wife/mother) ...the Master of the universe is called "Rab Al Kawwn" (AKA. Allah > AKA God)

[Arabian Princess]

Originally posted by Wanderer
But I understand completely if you are too afraid to look into this matter.

Why did you bring up Moon gods in this thread about the earliest mention of the name Allah ?


because u have been disscussing this for long enough ..
you have been corralating the two for long!!

I am not afraid to look at it, I am bored of having simmiler thread around Islamic sabla .. I could link you the previous thread if you want to discuss the same thing!
Why repeat!

if you want to lead the disucssion towards the issue of moongod, then I think it suits the general religion sabla coz thats definatly not islamic!

[IceTea]

Narrated Abu Huraira:

The Prophet said, "Allah created Adam, making him 60 cubits tall. When He created him, He said to him, "Go and greet that group of angels, and listen to their reply, for it will be your greeting (salutation) and the greeting (salutations of your offspring." So, Adam said (to the angels), As-Salamu Alaikum (i.e. Peace be upon you). The angels said, "As-salamu Alaika wa Rahmatu-l-lahi" (i.e. Peace and Allah's Mercy be upon you). Thus the angels added to Adam's salutation the expression, 'Wa Rahmatu-l-lahi,' Any person who will enter Paradise will resemble Adam (in appearance and figure). People have been decreasing in stature since Adam's creation.

Narrated Abu Huraira:

The Prophet said, "Allah created Adam in his complete shape and form (directly), sixty cubits (about 30 meters) in height. When He created him, He said (to him), "Go and greet that group of angels sitting there, and listen what they will say in reply to you, for that will be your greeting and the greeting of your offspring." Adam (went and) said, 'As-Salamu alaikum (Peace be upon you).' They replied, 'AsSalamu-'Alaika wa Rahmatullah (Peace and Allah's Mercy be on you) So they increased 'Wa Rahmatullah' The Prophet added 'So whoever will enter Paradise, will be of the shape and form of Adam. Since then the creation of Adam's (offspring) (i.e. stature of human beings is being diminished continuously) to the present time."


You can see that the name Allah was in place even at the time of creation of Adam PBUH when the angels replied to his Islamic greeting.

[Wanderer]

Originally posted by IceTea
Narrated Abu Huraira:
You can see that the name Allah was in place even at the time of creation of Adam PBUH when the angels replied to his Islamic greeting.


Sorry, IceTea, these are post Islamic references. We are still at the name Allah at ~ 100 years before the Prophet Mohammed.

[Blue_Chi]

Wanderer, I gave up on him, some people just don't get the point.

[Wanderer]

Originally posted by Arabian Princess
because u have been disscussing this for long enough ..
you have been corralating the two [Allah and Moongods]for long!!


So, woman ? This thread is about determining the first documented use of the name or title "Allah", not about Moongod theories



Originally posted by Arabian Princess

I am not afraid to look at it, I am bored of having simmiler thread around Islamic sabla .. I could link you the previous thread if you want to discuss the same thing!
Why repeat!

Show me the repetition, woman ! If you don't want to read this thread, then go elsewhere and read other threads. Honestly, can't you do the simplest things ? If you start a long book you find you don't like do you continue reading and complaining to everybody who will listen how you don't like it ?



Originally posted by Arabian Princess

if you want to lead the disucssion towards the issue of moongod, then I think it suits the general religion sabla coz thats definatly not islamic!

You are the only one that keeps bringing up Moongod references and still you refuse to answer why you keep doing that !!

I suggest you read instead of "contribute" because, frankly, your "Moon god" whining is OFF TOPIC in this thread.

YOU were the first to bring up MOONGOD and YOU continue to bring up MOONGODs when we are discussing when the name/ title "Allah" is first used.

DeepBlue has not fixated on MOONGODS every post like you and has in fact established the Arab reverence to "Allah" ~100 years before the Prophet.

Cetacea has added information as to the derivation of the name/title.

But you keep talking about MOONGODS.

Stay on topic or go start a MOONGOD thread if you like, but unless and until you can tie the name/title of "Allah" to a MOONGOD would you please stop bringing up this non-issue.

[Wanderer]

"The Ka'bah or Temple at Mecca seems long before Muhammad's time to have been called Baitu'llah or "House of Allah."

http://www.sharif.org.uk/allah.htm


Now while we don't know how far back the Kaaba was called "The House of Allah" , it clearly supports pre-Islamic recognition of "Allah" by Arabs.

"Two pagan bards, Nabighah and Labid, used the name "Allâh" in connection with the Supreme Deity, while the so-called Hanifs, in their search for an acceptable religion, rejected polytheism and sought freedom from sin by appeal to the will of Allah."


If we can place Nabighah and Labid in history, we may be able to determine even earlier dates for the use of the name/title "Allah".

Anyone familiar with these writer/poets ?

[MoonChild]

Originally posted by Arabian Princess
...if you want to discuss the same thing!
Why repeat!


ROFL

Off topic, but have you visited Politics lately? :D

Then again, maybe we should make you mod over there, stop all those threads about the same old thing ;)

[Homeless]

Wandrer r u trying to proove a point here or what is it exactly?

[IceTea]

Originally posted by Wanderer
Sorry, IceTea, these are post Islamic references. We are still at the name Allah at ~ 100 years before the Prophet Mohammed.

What is post Islamic? the event happend before Islam at the time when Adam created.

[Arabian Princess]

wanderer,

Man, I asked you if this thread is leading to the same direction .. and man u didnt answer that instead you asked me why did I bring that up.

ok man! :D

[IceTea]

Wanderer now you have an idea where the name Allah mentioned as per the Hadiths, so what is next you want to prove man? :)

[Cetacea]

Originally posted by IceTea
Wanderer now you have an idea where the name Allah mentioned as per the Hadiths, so what is next you want to prove man? :)
You are really confusing me. I thought the Hadith was written after the Qur'an. We are talking about pre-Islamic era here. Could you show me some literature that mentioned Allah, but was written before the Prophet's http://www.booh.com/temp/pbuh.gif time?

[Wanderer]

Originally posted by Cetacea
You are really confusing me. I thought the Hadith was written after the Qur'an. We are talking about pre-Islamic era here. Could you show me some literature that mentioned Allah, but was written before the Prophet's http://www.booh.com/temp/pbuh.gif time?

That's exactly what we're looking for - thanks Cetacea, Blue Chi, and DeepBlueSea for understanding the subject of this thread and contributing interesting information and analysis.

Homeless - We have some evidence that Allah was known to pre-Islamic Arabs, so what references can we find and how far back can we place the usage of the name/title "Allah" ? Understand ?

[IceTea]

Originally posted by Cetacea
You are really confusing me. I thought the Hadith was written after the Qur'an. We are talking about pre-Islamic era here. Could you show me some literature that mentioned Allah, but was written before the Prophet's http://www.booh.com/temp/pbuh.gif time?

I don't know why you are confused Wanderer is asking about how far back can we place the usage of the name/title "Allah". And as per the Hadith it says that the name Allah used since the creation of Adam. So if we know the name Allah used since that time then why you need for another evidence. Look at the event people when it did happen and not when it was written, if we know that the name Allah known since (and before) the creation of the first man then it will be known before Islam, just use your common sense.

And as DeepBlueSea mentioned the prophet name is Abdullah.

[Wanderer]

Originally posted by IceTea
I don't know why you are confused Wanderer is asking about how far back can we place the usage of the name/title "Allah". And as per the Hadith it says that the name Allah used since the creation of Adam.

The writers of the Hadith had an agenda and may have just made things up. Obviously the writers didn't have a verifiable source of this claim that the name was used way back when. That's why we are looking for independent (and less biased) sources as reference material.

Besides, there is no evidence of any Adam. You are using unsubstantiated parts of your mythology as support for other unsubstantiated parts of your mythology. Somewhere we need to ground it with a fact. Otherwise it is all just "faith" not fact.

[IceTea]

Originally posted by Wanderer
The writers of the Hadith had an agenda and may have just made things up. Obviously the writers didn't have a verifiable source of this claim that the name was used way back when. That's why we are looking for independent (and less biased) sources as reference material.


Don't be silly, Hadith is the 2nd source in Islam and it's inspiration from Allah.

Narrated Abu Huraira:

The Prophet said, "Allah created Adam in his complete shape and form (directly), sixty cubits (about 30 meters) in height. When He created him, He said (to him), "Go and greet that group of angels sitting there, and listen what they will say in reply to you, for that will be your greeting and the greeting of your offspring." Adam (went and) said, 'As-Salamu alaikum (Peace be upon you).' They replied, 'AsSalamu-'Alaika wa Rahmatullah (Peace and Allah's Mercy be on you) So they increased 'Wa Rahmatullah' The Prophet added 'So whoever will enter Paradise, will be of the shape and form of Adam. Since then the creation of Adam's (offspring) (i.e. stature of human beings is being diminished continuously) to the present time."




Besides, there is no evidence of any Adam. You are using unsubstantiated parts of your mythology as support for other unsubstantiated parts of your mythology. Somewhere we need to ground it with a fact. Otherwise it is all just "faith" not fact.

You are one of the evidences of the exist of Adam. And it's a fact.

[Cetacea]

Originally posted by IceTea

The Prophet said, "Allah created Adam in his complete shape and form (directly), sixty cubits (about 30 meters) in height. When He created him, He said (to him), ...
Quoting the same paragraph repeatedly from the same unreliable source isn’t going to make your argument any more convincing. You can’t seem to be able to understand the point of this thread even after Wanderer and I explained to you again and again. We are looking for PRE-ISLAMIC source, not anything written after the Qur’an.


Originally posted by IceTea
You are one of the evidences of the exist of Adam. And it's a fact.
Just because it was written in the Hadith doesn’t mean it’s a fact. Your sixty-cubit Adam story is just plain laughable.

[IceTea]

Originally posted by Cetacea
Quoting the same paragraph repeatedly from the same unreliable source isn’t going to make your argument any more convincing. You can’t seem to be able to understand the point of this thread even after Wanderer and I explained to you again and again. We are looking for PRE-ISLAMIC source, not anything written after the Qur’an.


Look at the event what did it happen and not when it was written, writing it now or before won't change anything from the facts. I will give you an example if someone now came and wrote a book about the invade of Iraq by the US and it's already one year back will you say we can't trust this book because it wasn't written at the time of the war. be logical!



Just because it was written in the Hadith doesn’t mean it’s a fact. Your sixty-cubit Adam story is just plain laughable.

It's a fact a Hadith is not said by a normal human being, he is the last God prophet to the humanity, best man in the universe and inspiration from Allah.

By the Star when it goes down,-
Your Companion is neither astray nor being misled
Nor does he say (aught) of (his own) Desire.
It is no less than inspiration sent down to him:
He was taught by one Mighty in Power,

[MoonChild]

Originally posted by IceTea
[B] be logical!


:haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha:

yer just too darn funny sometimes :D :D :D

[Wanderer]

Originally posted by IceTea

It's a fact a Hadith is not said by a normal human being, he is the last God prophet to the humanity, best man in the universe and inspiration from Allah.



OK, IceTea. If the Hadith say Allah's name was known since Adam, you should have no difficulty finding historical examples of the name/title of "Allah" in pre-Islamic inscriptions and writings, correct ? Ceratinly you or some Muslim scholar has compiled a book or list or post-it-note of all the archaeological finds with evidence of the name/title "Allah".


So, where are they ?


If you have them, Hadith may be supported. If you don't, Hadith become suspect as embellishments and fictions.

Again, IceTea, if Allah's name/title was known throughout human history, where is the pre-Islamic evidence?

That's the very subject of this thread.

[Wanderer]

If there was an Adam, who knew the name of god as "Allah", and all humans come from Adam, then any and all pre-Islamic civilizations should be explored for references to "Allah".


Where are they ?

Where is "Allah" in the European cave paintings, where is "Allah" on the pyramids of Egypt and the Americas, where is "Allah" in early China, where is "Allah" in aboriginal Australia ?

[Nocia9600]

Surah 109. The Disbelievers, Atheists

1. Say : O ye that reject Faith!

2. I worship not that which ye worship,

3. Nor will ye worship that which I worship.

4. And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship,

5. Nor will ye worship that which I worship.

6. To you be your Way, and to me mine

[Cetacea]

Originally posted by Nocia9600
Surah 109. The Disbelievers, Atheists ...


What does it have anything to with the topic? :lost: Did you cross post?

[Nocia9600]

Originally posted by Cetacea
What does it have anything to with the topic? :lost: Did you cross post? This has to do with all the topics where Allah name is mention and there are some Disbelievers and Atheists in the topics.

[Cetacea]

Originally posted by Nocia9600
This has to do with all the topics where Allah name is mention and there are some Disbelievers and Atheists in the topics.
Are you telling us to shut up? This is a dicussion forum where everyone gets to express one's opinion. You are free to defend your ideas as long as you stay on topic. Since you haven't said anything that was remotely related to the topic being discussed, I suggest that you go back and read the whole thread.

[Nocia9600]

Originally posted by Cetacea
Are you telling us to shut up? This is a dicussion forum where everyone gets to express one's opinion. You are free to defend your ideas as long as you stay on topic. Since you haven't said anything that was remotely related to the topic being discussed, I suggest that you go back and read the whole thread. If you are Disbelievers, Atheists. ,Even if u stay in the topic forever you will remain disbeliever unless Allah mecy comes your way and stop rejecting the Faith.

[X-press]

Originally posted by Wanderer
We all know that Allah is the god praised in the Quran -

....the Jewish Torah and the Christian Gospels do not mention Allah as a proper name of God.

Wandy, I remember asking the same question when I was a Christian and when I was learing only about Islam. I used to also wander why it was in arabic, like it is the case for the name of Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) and that there was no arabic names ever mentioned in the Bible I then knew...

The name Allah is in arabic, but is specifically attribute to the One and Only God which is the God for the all human race, whether men are believers or not, Jews, Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, atheists, polytheist ect...

I understood that before the coming of Islam, worshippers used to call Our Creator Allah too, but they were attributing this name to a God with partners.

Nowadays, the Christians might call HIM "God" if they speak english or Dieu if they speak french, etc...however, thought we are talking about the same Creator, the name they give HIM doesn't reflect His unique Divinity or Oneness.

Though Allah and their God is the same, (as there is not more then One God), the Christians associate HIM with Jesus (trinity) which HE strongly rejected in his final revelations. Calling Our Creator "Allah" strengthen the fact that He is One and Only One, and has no partner.

Allah is a unique name, but HE also has in addition another 99 'descriptive' names (which can be said in arabic or in any other languages, as expl: Ar-Rahman (The Most Merciful), Ar-Rahim (The most Compassionate), Al-Aziz (The Almighty)...

I believe not only muslims call Our Creator, "Allah" but also the arabic speaking Jews or the arab Christians...

[X-press]

I know that we already talked extensively few years back about this topic and it would be nice Arby or Enigma if you could find the sabla thread. The title is unknown right now to me I am afraid, but I know that I posted there some details about the origin of the world "Allah".

In the time being, this is what I cam across from campusprogram.com:


Although the name "Allah" is most commonly associated with Islam, it was also used in pre-Islamic times.

The father of Muhammad, Islam's prophet, had the name "Abdullah"; which translates to servant of Allah. The Arab Jews referred to God as Allah, and the Hebrew form of this name, El (àì) or Eloh (àìåä), was used as an Old Testament synonym for Yahweh (éäåä). The Aramaic word for God is also "Allah", therefore it is believed that Jesus Christ also used this word in his teachings.



The fact that the name "Allah" was mentioned or not in the time of Adam's Creations, or in the Old Testament or in Jesus teachings, is not that impotant to my opinion.

What matters is that the revelations of Our Creator was given at different times and that in the time of the Quranic revelations (which are the seal of all of them), HE mentioned that we should call HIM "Allah" or one of his 99 'descriptive' names and nothing else. History will not change that fact.

[X-press]

I also find the following from "answeringchristianity.com" with is interesting:


The words "elaw" in Aramaic, and "ilah" in Arabic are words that were derived from the root word "Allah". Allah Almighty is the GOD of the Universe, and He is the Supreme GOD.

When Jesus cried to GOD Almighty "Eloi Eloi lama sabachthani?" in Matthew 27:46 and Mark 15:34, he said "My God my God why have you foresaken me?" in English translation. "Eloi" is derived from "Elaw", and the later is derived from "Allah".

Conclusion:

The Aramaic "Elaw" and the Arabic "Allah" are the same. The Aramaic "Elaw" is derived from the Arabic "Allah", and it means "GOD". "Allah" in Arabic also means "GOD", the Supreme GOD Almighty.

[Enigma]

I think there have been enough thorough replies here to where I don't need to look up anything.

Just one thing, muslims holding an extremely defensive attitude toward a simple question doesn't give us a very confident or secure image. :)

[Vamp]

Very interesting information you got there XP, I might also add that in Judaism, they refer to Allah (God) as Elohim which is very much similar to Allah in Islam.
And whats more interesting is that Elohim is a plural from the same root as singular Eloah, In Islam (Quran) the exact translation of the word ''God'' (one God) is Ilah. You all probably noticed that the two words are almost identical!

I suspect that the slight difference in the words [Allah,Elohim,Elaw] and [Ilah,Eloah,Eloi] is due to people speaking different languages and therefore pronouncing the same words differently, the original being Allah.

[Wanderer]

Originally posted by X-press

I understood that before the coming of Islam, worshippers used to call Our Creator Allah too, but they were attributing this name to a God with partners.

Yes, that's apparently how pre-Islamic Arabs knew Allah.

But how far back ? Where is the source of this information that pre-Islamic Arabs knew "Allah" even as a God with partners ?

How far back does "Allah" go ?

Not "Elohim" or any possible original source of the name "Allah", but the earliest reference to "Allah".

BTW - if Allah is derived from Elohim (plural) or Eloi, then it is more likely that the Arabs are calling their god by the wrong name as the earlier is usually the source - not the later.

[Mr Tickle]

Tea,

I was under the distinct impression that the Hadiths were agreed upon about 200 years after Mohammed's death

They are man's interpretation

[Wanderer]

"Evidence for the worship of Allah in pre-Islamic times is found as early as the 3rd century BC, where he ranks alongside other tribal and local deities as a special god. It was probably contact with Christians and Jews that led the prophet Muhammad to formulate his belief in Allah as the one, supreme God."

http://www.tiscali.co.uk/reference/encyclopaedia/hutchinson/m0002841.html



So according to this source, we have references to Allah as far back as 300 years BCE - or ~ 900 years before Mohammed.