Analyzing Surah "Ar-Rahman": (Allah) Most Gracious!

[X-press]

I found Surah Ar-Raham (55), which is composed of 78 verses, particularly beautiful. I thought it would be nice to share it here and spend some time to analyze it.

Muslims as well as non-muslims are welcome to participate here, comment and ask questions if they don't understand a particular verse.

English translation from islam.com:



In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

[1] (Allah) Most Gracious!

[2] It is He Who has taught the Qur-an.

[3] He has created man:

[4] He has taught him speech (and Intelligence).

[5] The sun and the moon follow courses (exactly) computed;

[6] And the herbs and the trees both (alike) bow in adoration.

[7] And the Firmament has He raised high, and He has set up the Balance (of Justice),

[8] In order that ye may not transgress (due) balance.

[9] So establish weight with justice and fall not short in the balance.

[10] It is He Who has spread out the earth for (His) creatures:

Verses 1 to 9: Click here to read the original arabic text (http://quran.al-islam.com/GenGifImages/Normal/290X330-0/55/1/1.png)



~ Which verses strike you the most and try to tell us why?

~ Which verses need more clarification to better understand their meaning?

[amo_l_oman]

VV.1-7 and 10 show the power and wisdom of God in creating many things apparently so difficult but so easy for Him, and VV.8-9 gives us the road to follow, easy, this too, cause everything has been made perfectly.
What is most amazing to me here, the description of the armony created in opposition or better, as complement to the armony we must reach, easy to find if we live in balance with what He did for us.

[X-press]

Thanks amo for your answer here and I notice that everything seems to be in pair in the verses above (Quran-Man, Man-Speech, Man-Nature, Sun-Moon, Herbs-Trees, Firmament-Balance, Justice-Balance, Earth-Creatures).

The first 10 verses are very easy to read and to understand. I particularly liked the english version of verse [6] "And the herbs and the trees both (alike) bow in adoration", as it shows how even nature adores and respect The Creator. We would expect men to be the only one to bow in adoration, but nature too has high admiration for Allah.

[X-press]

[11] Therein is fruit and date palms, producing spathes (enclosing dates);

[12] Also corn, with (its) leaves and stalk for fodder, and sweet-smelling plants.

[13] Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?

[14] He created man from sounding clay like unto pottery,

[15] And He created Jinns from fire free of smoke:

[16] Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?

[17] (He is) Lord of the two Easts and Lord of the two Wests:

[18] Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?

[19] He has let free the two bodies of flowing water, meeting together:

Verses 11 to 18: Click here to read the original arabic text (http://quran.al-islam.com/GenGifImages/Normal/290X330-0/55/11/1.png)



~ What opposites or dual points can you find in the above verses?

~ Explain verses 14 to 17 if you can.

[Wanderer]

Originally posted by X-press

Muslims as well as non-muslims are welcome to participate here, comment and ask questions if they don't understand a particular verse.

~ Which verses need more clarification to better understand their meaning? [/B]

[9] So establish weight with justice and fall not short in the balance.

Can someone explain the meaning of verse 9 please ?

[Arabian Princess]

another translation of that verse:

And keep up the balance with equity and do not make the measure deficient.

its related to cheating while weighing stuff (I guess it could be used similarly as when dealing with money) coz you are taking somone's else right.

[X-press]

Wandy to answer your question regarding verse [9]"So establish weight with justice and fall not short in the balance", this is my understanding:

This verse can have more than one meaning:

1) Allah ask man to be honest, just and straigth in whatever matter he is facing in his every day life. Man should keep focusing on being just and fair with everything he does, with everyone he is dealing with and even with himself.

2) The second meaning could also be more physical in the sense of weighting any goods or deals with justice and fairness. Men should not cheat, should not exceed or hide part of what he is litteraly 'weighting' or 'selling'.

In both meanings, the message here is to keep an honest balance within ourself, between us and with the external world. Any plus or minus will automatically lower the 'scale' in one way or another and cause an unbalance. This justice can of course only be acquire through the obediance towards Allah's commands.

Wandy, hoping this personal analysis will satisfy you and waiting to hear what is your own interpretation of this verse or any other one.

:blush:

[X-press]

Wandy, no response from you....http://www.click-smilies.de/sammlung0304/fragend/confused-smiley-012.gif


[17] (He is) Lord of the two Easts and Lord of the two Wests:

I still coudn't really find the reasons why it says "two Easts" and "two Wests", instead of one of each. Does anyone know? Raed maybe you can help... http://www.click-smilies.de/sammlung0304/engel/angel-smiley-002.gif.

[Namika]

i tried checking in the net and this is what i found.. but will check more inshaAllah..

Allah is the Lord of the Two Easts and the Two Wests


Allah said,


[ÑóÈøõ ÇáúãóÔúÑöÞóíúäö æóÑóÈøõ ÇáúãóÛúÑöÈóíúäö ]


((He is) the Lord of the two easts and the Lord of the two wests.) meaning the sunrise of summer and winter and the sunset of summer and winter.

[Guwantanamist]

I found Surah Ar-Raham (55), which is composed of 78 verses, particularly beautiful

Im not sure if you can read the arabic verse of this Sura or no, but anyways you saying its beautiful reminded me of a Hadeeth about this Sura;

áßá ÔíÁ ÚÑæÓ æ ÚÑæÓ ÇáÞÑÂä ÇáÑÍãä

"For everything there is a bride, and the bride of the Quran is Ar-Rahman"


I thought I might share this with you :)

[X-press]

Gwanta, thanks for sharing this verse and the english translation is certainly very beautiful. I was no aware that this surah "Ar-Rahman" had such an importance for the Quran, I was really impressed by the english translation. However, I am sure the original arabic version is much more poetic and powerful!


Originally posted by Blood Rose
Allah is the Lord of the Two Easts and the Two Wests

....meaning the sunrise of summer and winter and the sunset of summer and winter.

Thanks Blood Rose for your research. So should we understand that during the summer the sun rise at a different point of the East than during the winter? The same for the West, it sets at a slight different angle in winter than in summer?

We should conclude that in spring and autumn, the sun must rise and set in exactly one of these two points or Allah would have mentioned Four Easts and Four Wests for each seasons.

I am amazed when non-muslims believe that such revelations from Prophet Mohammed (pbuh), who was an illiterate man, were pure guess at that time. A guess that science must admit is very accurate...

[X-press]

[19] He has let free the two bodies of flowing water, meeting together: <=?

[20] Between them is a Barrier which they do not transgress: <=?

[21] Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?

[22] Out of them come Pearls and Coral:

[23] Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?

[24] And His are the Ships sailing smoothly through the seas, lofty as mountains:

[25] Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?

[26] All that is on earth will perish:

[27] But will abide (forever) the Face of thy Lord, Full of Majesty, Bounty and Honour

Verses 19 to 27: Click here to read the original arabic text (http://quran.al-islam.com/GenGifImages/Normal/290X330-0/55/19/2.png)



~ How do you understand Verses 19 and 20?

[MoonChild]

Originally posted by X-press
I am amazed when non-muslims believe that such revelations from Prophet Mohammed (pbuh), who was an illiterate man, were pure guess at that time. A guess that science must admit is very accurate...

Until you realize that Stonehenge was built thousands of years before as a guide to the winter solstice, and the pyraminds were build on the solstice axes ... no offense, but the solstices and how to calculate their times and positions were well-known LONG before the time of Mohammed.

I wouldn't call it a "pure guess", instead that Mohammed wasn't as ignorant as your doctrine makes him out to be ... all evidence points to him being an educated, travelled man in the company of scholars....

[Scottish]

We live near monoliths here. They were around before Egypt, according to some scientists. Used to play around them as a child.

[amo_l_oman]

[19] He has let free the two bodies of flowing water, meeting together:

[20] Between them is a Barrier which they do not transgress

Searching on Yusuf Ali translation and commentary:

From a materialistic point of view: another of the favours of God is making the two bodies of water, sweet and salt, meet but always keeping them separate through a barrier they do not transgress. We have always duality, in this case between sea water having salty and cleaning properties, and fresh water, sweet and good to drink.
Allegoric interpretation: going back to surah 18 vv.60 where Moses is close to meet Khidr, the junction of the two seas can be seen as the meeting of two different knowledges.

[jack]

X-P
I am amazed when non-muslims believe that such revelations from Prophet Mohammed (pbuh), who was an illiterate man, were pure guess at that time. A guess that science must admit is very accurate...What revelation?

http://www.equinox-and-solstice.com/

And "you" must admit it was well know long before Mohammed lived ... all over the world on every continent.

Bring something that was not already common knowledge ...

[amo_l_oman]

Small offtopic

For those who partecipated to Wandy's threads on pre-islamic era and pre-islamic attitudes of our Prophet pbuh: many of us did agree, since little literature is available, that there was the possibility that young Muhammad pbuh, could be easily influenceble from his relatives and environment attitudes.
True that growing up and travelling for commerce his personality developed, but i usually associate influencebility to ignorance and lack of culture, no offence for SAWS am talking in general, so how can you now state that he was so smart and ready to acquire scientific knowledge to put in the Quran, assuming that you mean that The book to be read is not God's words but man's?

[Namika]

Originally posted by X-press

Thanks Blood Rose for your research. So should we understand that during the summer the sun rise at a different point of the East than during the winter? The same for the West, it sets at a slight different angle in winter than in summer?

We should conclude that in spring and autumn, the sun must rise and set in exactly one of these two points or Allah would have mentioned Four Easts and Four Wests for each seasons.

I am amazed when non-muslims believe that such revelations from Prophet Mohammed (pbuh), who was an illiterate man, were pure guess at that time. A guess that science must admit is very accurate...

i will try to check more about this and let you updated.. will try to check today and post it if not today then by next week inshaAllah..

[MoonChild]

Originally posted by amo_l_oman
Small offtopic
that there was the possibility that young Muhammad pbuh, could be easily influenceble from his relatives and environment attitudes.

the question here is not if he were "influenced" by others, but whether the comment about "2 Easts and 2 Wests" (assuming the commentary is correct about it referring to solstices is correct, which is not at all obvious from the translation, why not just use the word "solstice" if that's what they meant?) ... anyways, if a reference to soltices was a "miraculous revelation", as suggested by X-Press.

My answer is that, no, it's not a miraculous revelation because the concept of solstices was not only WELL known for THOUSANDS of years before Mohammed's time, but numerous religious systems and calendars were based on A DETAILED knowledge of how to calculate and track them.

So, where's the miracle?

Anyways, the passage is beautiful poetry (even in English), testifying to the author's belief in the power and glory of his Lord - but there's nothing in there that muslims can point fingers and say "SEE? MIRACULOUS KNOWLEDGE!" As a matter of fact, you can easily argue that it's obviously NOT meant to impart some scientific knowledge, as the passage refers to plants and herbs "bowing in adoration", which doesn't happen ...

Let it be poetry, allow it to uplift you, it's powerful enough at that level :)

[Wanderer]

Originally posted by X-press
Wandy, no response from you

Sorry, I was away.

You and Arabian Princess explained it just fine - I didn't read it as regarding fair trade practices because of verses 7 and 8:

[7] And the Firmament has He raised high, and He has set up the Balance (of Justice),

[8] In order that ye may not transgress (due) balance.

[9] So establish weight with justice and fall not short in the balance.

In the context of verses 7 and 8, it just didn't seem to be talking about being fair in business dealings.

Allah has set up a "Balance (of Justice)" after establishing a Firmament - seems to mean that there is a "Heavenly" side to this verse.

I see you fair trade interpretation if I just read verses 8 and 9, but what is this heavenly balance of Justice in verse 7 and how are they related ?

[X-press]

Originally posted by MoonChild
...the question here is not if he were "influenced" by others, but whether the comment about "2 Easts and 2 Wests".... was a "miraculous revelation", as suggested by X-Press.

My answer is that, no, it's not a miraculous revelation because the concept of solstices was not only WELL known for THOUSANDS of years before Mohammed's time,...

MoonChild, first of all I didn't talk about "miracle" here, but the fact that many of you might believe that it is a 'pure guess' from Prophet Mohammed (pbuh).

Now, as you mentioned that such concept was well know years before his time, you should be sure if it was known to his people and to him more precisely. Can you guarantee that an illiterate man, (as he couldn't read or write, even if he was noble and pure) had known about the Two Easts and Two Wests and still produce over his illiteracy such an eloquent verse as verses 17 to 20?

I am sure that science nowadays has reached so many homes and yet not everyone knows that there are two points in the West and in the East where the sun raises and sets.

Though scientists might have agreed on the existence of two waters (one salty and one sweet), I am pretty sure not every litterate man knows that these two never really mixed and that there is an invisible barrier separating them...let's not ask such question to the illiterate man of today.

[X-press]

Originally posted by Wanderer

I see you fair trade interpretation if I just read verses 8 and 9, but what is this heavenly balance of Justice in verse 7 and how are they related ?

Wandy, your initial first questions was: "Can someone explain the meaning of verse 9 please?". Arby and I concentrated on answering based on how we understood that particular verse only.


[7] And the Firmament has He raised high, and He has set up the Balance (of Justice),

[8] In order that ye may not transgress (due) balance.

[9] So establish weight with justice and fall not short in the balance.



I understand verse 7 as a balance existing even in the Firmament, heavenly balance in the constellation between the planets, the stars, the sun and all the heavenly creations. This balance is just and doesn't create chaos. God wants men to do the same when it comes to dealing wich each other.

This is only my personal interpretations of these 3 verses on top of what I already said in my previous post about verse 9.

[MoonChild]

Originally posted by X-press
[B]MoonChild, first of all I didn't talk about "miracle" here,

OK sorry, I misread you. I would never believe it is pure guess, but general background knowledge.



Now, as you mentioned that such concept was well know years should be sure if it was known to his people and to him more precisely.

Well, the Kaaba is build along the same astronomical axis as the pyramids... so it stands to reason that the Arabic people knew of the principle, and considering that Mohammed's guardian was keeper of the temple it also stands to reason that Mohammed was somewhat more aware of it's properties than the typical Arab.


Of course there are no "guarantees", including that you can't guarantee that Mohammed was illiterate (since the only source is Official Doctine). But I trust more in Occam's Razor (the simplest explanation that fits the evidence is most likely the correct one), than in the (generally conflicting) claims of competing religions.

You muslims are convinced that Mohammed was illiterate and ignorant (and make him out to be stupid more often than not, from the way you talk about him!), but how many illiterate uneducated men do YOU know who are successful businessmen as he was? It's far more likely that he was at least moderately well educated, particularly having grown up around a temple - and that the illiterate part grew up as part of the "mystique" that so often accompanies new cults (religions, if you will)...

I know it is doctrine for you, but using Occam's Razor - the Quran is filled with things that a moderately well educated and somewhat traveled person of his time would reasonably be expected to know - both the true things and the misconceptions - so the logical conclusion (without the indoctrination) is.... pretty obvious.

[X-press]

[27] But will abide (forever) the Face of thy Lord, Full of Majesty, Bounty and Honour.

[28] Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?

[29] Of Him seeks (its need) every creature in the heavens and on earth: every day in (new) Splendour doth He (shine)!

[30] Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?

[31] Soon shall We settle your affairs, O both ye worlds!

[32] Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?

[33] O ye assembly of Jinns and men! if it be ye can pass beyond the zones of the heavens and the earth, pass ye! not without authority shall ye be able to pass!

Verses 27 to 33: Click here to read the original arabic text (http://quran.al-islam.com/GenGifImages/Normal/290X330-0/55/27/6.png)



~ Which verses need more clarification to better understand their meaning?

[Wanderer]

Originally posted by X-press

I am sure that science nowadays has reached so many homes and yet not everyone knows that there are two points in the West and in the East where the sun raises and sets.

I'm confused. Are there only 2 points from which it appears that the sun has risen and only 2 points where it appears that the sun is setting ?



Originally posted by X-press

Though scientists might have agreed on the existence of two waters (one salty and one sweet), I am pretty sure not every litterate man knows that these two never really mixed and that there is an invisible barrier separating them...let's not ask such question to the illiterate man of today.

Are there only 2 kinds of water - salty and sweet ? Are there not graduations of salinity and sweetness ?

And if there ARE graduations, how can we claim that the two don't mix ?

[jack]

So far 33 verses ...

10 or 1/3 so far is ...

Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?

What is the signifigance of this?

[X-press]

I have something to post regarding your question Jack, but I would love to see what Raed has to say about it as he didn't yet participate here ;). I will pm him and I am sure he will come back to us with a great answer...

[Arabian Princess]

XP & Jack,
this is the explanation for that verse

Thanx for Raed who helped out:

ÝÇáÊßÑíÑ Ýí åÐå ÇáÂíÇÊ ááÊÃßíÏ æÇáãÈÇáÛÉ Ýí ÇáÊÞÑíÑ , æÇÊÎÇÐ ÇáÍÌÉ Úáíåã ÈãÇ æÞÝåã Úáì ÎáÞ ÎáÞ . æÞÇá ÇáÞÊÈí : Åä Çááå ÊÚÇáì ÚÏÏ Ýí åÐå ÇáÓæÑÉ äÚãÇÁå , æÐßÑ ÎáÞå ÂáÇÁå , Ëã ÃÊÈÚ ßá ÎáÉ æÕÝåÇ æäÚãÉ æÖÚåÇ ÈåÐå æÌÚáåÇ ÝÇÕáÉ Èíä ßá äÚãÊíä áíäÈååã Úáì ÇáäÚã æíÞÑÑåã ÈåÇ , ßãÇ ÊÞæá áãä ÊÊÇÈÚ Ýíå ÅÍÓÇäß æåæ íßÝÑå æíäßÑå : Ãáã Êßä ÝÞíÑÇ ÝÃÛäíÊß ÃÝÊäßÑ åÐÇ ¿ ! Ãáã Êßä ÎÇãáÇ ÝÚÒÒÊß ÃÝÊäßÑ åÐÇ ¿ ! Ãáã Êßä ÕÑæÑÉ ÝÍÌÌÊ Èß ÃÝÊäßÑ åÐÇ ! ¿ Ãáã Êßä ÑÇÌáÇ ÝÍãáÊß ÃÝÊäßÑ åÐÇ ¿ ! æÇáÊßÑíÑ ÍÓä Ýí ãËá åÐÇ . ÞÇá : ßã äÚãÉ ßÇäÊ áßã ßã ßã æßã æÞÇá ÂÎÑ : áÇ ÊÞÊáí ãÓáãÇ Åä ßäÊ ãÓáãÉ ÅíÇß ãä Ïãå ÅíÇß ÅíÇß æÞÇá ÂÎÑ : áÇ ÊÞØÚä ÇáÕÏíÞ ãÇ ØÑÝÊ ÚíäÇß ãä Þæá ßÇÔÍ ÃÔÑ æáÇ Êãáä ãä ÒíÇÑÊå ÒÑå æÒÑå æÒÑ æÒÑ æÒÑ æÞÇá ÇáÍÓíä Èä ÇáÝÖá : ÇáÊßÑíÑ ØÑÏÇ ááÛÝáÉ , æÊÃßíÏÇ ááÍÌÉ


it mainly says : that the repetation of that verse is for assure that its true. Allah illustrated his favors and blessing through his creation, and in order to remind us of them, he repeats this verse after 2 or three ilustrations.

[Cetacea]

Originally posted by X-press
Though scientists might have agreed on the existence of two waters (one salty and one sweet), I am pretty sure not every litterate man knows that these two never really mixed and that there is an invisible barrier separating them...let's not ask such question to the illiterate man of today.
I haven’t been following this thread, but I just want to point out that salt water and sweet(fresh) water do mix, and there is no "invisible barrier separating them'. I live near the bay and we have thousands of acres of estuaries and salt marshes where rivers meet the ocean. The unique environment supports a diverse group of plants and animals including the beautiful white pelicans. http://booh.com/misc/birds1/a2322_200_thm.jpg Here are more pictures I took at the salt marsh in case you think it’s just a myth. ;) http://booh.com/misc/birds1/index.htm

Maybe there aren’t a lot of salt marshes in Saudi Arabia, that’s why the desert dwelling Qur’an writers didn’t know that salt water and fresh water actually mix, at least not in their neck of the woods.

More information on estuaries and salt marshes:

http://encarta.msn.com/text_761570978___4/Estuary.html
“Estuaries are rarely in a steady state. Tides are the principal energy source causing estuarine mixing, but wind, wave motions, and river runoff can also be important locally. Salt water and fresh water mix to form brackish water. Due mostly to oscillations in river flow, the three main estuarine zones—saltwater, brackish, and freshwater—can shift seasonally and vary greatly from one area to another.”

http://web.ask.com/redir?bpg=http%3a%2f%2fweb.ask.com%2fweb%3fq%3dsal t%2bmarsh%26o%3d0%26page%3d1&q=salt+marsh&u=http%3a%2f%2ftm.wc.ask.com%2fr%3ft%3dan%26s%3da% 26uid%3d2ceb8f8ecceb8f8ec%26sid%3d3ceb8f8ecceb8f8e c%26qid%3d088333AF3E3C4D438C25CEEB2E065DA4%26io%3d 0%26sv%3dza5cb0d70%26o%3d0%26ask%3dsalt%2bmarsh%26 uip%3dceb8f8ec%26en%3dte%26eo%3d-100%26pt%3dDynamics%2bOf%2bThe%2bSalt%2bMarsh%2bDy namics%2bof%2bthe%2bSalt%2bMarsh%26ac%3d19%26qs%3d 0%26pg%3d1%26ep%3d1%26te_par%3d102%26te_id%3d%26u% 3dhttp%3a%2f%2fwater.dnr.state.sc.us%2fmarine%2fpu b%2fseascience%2fdynamic.html&s=a&bu=http%3a%2f%2fwater.dnr.state.sc.us%2fmarine%2fp ub%2fseascience%2fdynamic.html&qte=0&o=0

“Salt marshes are transitional areas between land and water, occurring along the intertidal shore of estuaries and sounds where salinity (salt content) ranges from near ocean strength to near fresh in upriver marshes.”

[Raed]

Originally posted by Cetacea
Maybe there aren’t a lot of salt marshes in Saudi Arabia, that’s why the desert dwelling Qur’an writers didn’t know that salt water and fresh water actually mix, at least not in their neck of the woods.

Dear mam,


On numerous occasions.. I have asked of you not to make silly comments regarding ones faith , race or that they hold on dear to.

I value your opinion in this forum, and I keep up with that you post, believing in Voltaire who said "I might not
Agree with you but I will defend your right to go against me to the death"

In one of your posts and regarding gays life style you have said that you could not believe that someone has that much hate towards another being. Fine I will agree to that .. but when I see sarcastic comments that are truly and utterly tasteless , cold and bitter that shows nothing but how ugly "and I am sorry to speak my mind" one being can be from the inside. Scientifically what you say is right and I can rebuttal it, but I have learned that discussions like these lead to no where out of experience .. So I will let it be..

I was invited to churches as I remember clearly I did not jump off my seat the minute the blood of Jesus was served! Going this is blah and blah.. Because I respect Christians and respect their right to believe in whatever they want to..


In simple English and to save my breath : " is it too much to ask of you and others, to talk and act maturely regarding such issues since there is a great courtesy in hearing your opinions "not insults" ?"

[Homeless]

I totally agree with Raed here
When we critizise christianity even if it was a polite way then we r being rude, and ignorant and whatever other accusations we seem to get but then its fair for u to sarcasticly disrespect our beliefs and religion?

[Cetacea]

Originally posted by Raed
In simple English and to save my breath : " is it too much to ask of you and others, to talk and act maturely regarding such issues since there is a great courtesy in hearing your opinions "not insults" ?"
Why was it an insult? I was talking about the fact the salt water and fresh do mix. I believe the Qur’an was written by human beings 1400 years ago and since they lived in or near a desert, they were familiar with the desert environment, but not the marshland environment. I’ve read works written by ancient Chinese who had no clue what plants and animals were like in the desert. They believed that the entire world was like the marshland where they lived and grew rice.

When I said “desert dwelling”, I was thinking ecology – the theme of my entire post. If you got offended, I’m sorry. Apparently your imagination went further than mine.

[X-press]

Originally posted by jack
So far 33 verses ...

10 or 1/3 so far is ...

Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?

What is the signifigance of this?

Jack, the fact that this verse is continuously repeated is one of the thing which I feel makes this Surah beautiful. "Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?" is actually repeated 31 times in the 78 verses of 'Ar-Rahman', and this nearly split the entire Surah in two.


As A.Yusuf Ali explained surely this verse better than I do and this is what he says:


Both the promoun "your" and the verb "will ye deny" are in the Arabic in the Dual Number.

The whole Surah is a symphony of Duality, which leads up to Unity. All creation is in pairs. Justice is the conciliation of two opposites to unity, the settlement of the unending feud between Right and Wrong.

The things and concepts mentioned in this Surah are in pairs: man and outer nature; sun and moon; herbs and trees; heavens and earth; fruit and corn; human food and fodder for cattle; things nourishing and things weet-smeeling; and so on throughout the Surah.

http://www.englishsabla.com/boy-i/Smilies/arrow.gif "Will ye deny? that is, fail to acknowledge either in word or thought or in your conduct. If you misuse Allah's gifts or ignore them, that is equivalent to ingratitude or denial or refusal to profit by Allah's infinite Grace.

[Cetacea]

Originally posted by Homeless
I totally agree with Raed here
When we critizise christianity even if it was a polite way then we r being rude, and ignorant and whatever other accusations we seem to get but then its fair for u to sarcasticly disrespect our beliefs and religion?
I'm not a Christian, and I don’t have any problems at all if you criticize it. In fact I will chime in if you start a thread. Some of my own family members are born-again fundamentalists and I’ve seen the dark side of Christianity. I consider Islam and Christianity as two similar religions and I don’t think one is any better than the other.

I was talking about fresh water and salt water from a scientific point of view. If you got offended, please tell me what I said was wrong.

[X-press]

Originally posted by Cetacea
.....salt water and sweet(fresh) water do mix, and there is no "invisible barrier separating them'.


Maybe there aren’t a lot of salt marshes in Saudi Arabia, that’s why the desert dwelling Qur’an writers didn’t know that salt water and fresh water actually mix, at least not in their neck of the woods.

Ceatcea, with all my respect, the Quran is not a simple book casually written by ignorant desert dwellers. The Quran is the direct and final revelation of Our Creator and if HE said:

"The two bodies of flowing water, meeting together: between them is a Barrier which they do not transgress...",

...there is a meaning into it which maybe I (or we) didn't understand properly.

I said that I understood it as the two waters (salty and fresh) as two separate waters which don't mix....does this mean that it is for sure the only message Our Creator wanted to give us via this verse?

[X-press]

Originally posted by Cetacea
...salt water and fresh do mix. I believe the Qur’an was written by human beings 1400 years ago and ....were familiar with the desert environment, but not the marshland environment.

With all my respect Cetacea, but your post really amuzes me, as the way your are expressing yourself it is as if the Quran was the words or the creation of some ignorant desert bedouins.

Do you realize that the Quran is the Word of God? Do you realize that God is the one who has created the desert and the sea and everything around and above it and HE doesn't need to be in a particular location on earth to know what is happening within His Creation?

Are you suggesting that God had no idea what HE was talking about when HE revealed verses 19 and 20?

[Cetacea]

Originally posted by X-press
Ceatcea, with all my respect, the Quran is not a simple book casually written by ignorant desert dwellers.
Ignorant?? :lost: When did I say people live in the desert were ignorant? They understood their environment and utilized the natural resources available to them, just like people who lived in the rain forest or marshland.


Originally posted by X-press
"The two bodies of flowing water, meeting together: between them is a Barrier which they do not transgress
The point of my post was that fresh water and salt water readily mix and there is no barrier between them. If the Qur’an said “between them is a Barrier which they do not transgress”, then the Qur’an got it wrong, at least from a Scientific point of view. Unless you are going to tell me the English translation is not accurate… :scratch:

[jack]

X-P
"Will ye deny? that is, fail to acknowledge either in word or thought or in your conduct. If you misuse Allah's gifts or ignore them, that is equivalent to ingratitude or denial or refusal to profit by Allah's infinite Grace.

"Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?" 31 times out of 78 verses ...

I think you miss the whole point of this Surah.

What happens if you deny? You have already been told that in earlier verses.

Simple guilt trip that reinforces that if you deny you will go to hell.

And that is drilled into your brain with this and other verses all throughout the quran.

Bible uses this method also.

[Raed]

Originally posted by Cetacea
When I said “desert dwelling”, I was thinking ecology – the theme of my entire post. .


I feel like I am wasting time... and I am sorry to have concluded that and especially about you! You ought to know how to admit to a mistake instead of acting all smart about it. If you feel that you have not offended anyone with the choice of words, I suggest you enroll in English 101 and have the people there teaching you about level of diction and choice of words “ there is a difference between written and spoken English”


Soft whisper : Cetacea it does not make you sound funny, it does not make you sound smart .. it just proves how silly and Egotistical you can be sometimes.

By the way, the Verse talks about two salty waters, and the reason why they are salty is cause in the following verse Pearls are mentioned am sure in China just like in San Francisco and KSA everyone realizes that Pearls are CREATED in salty water..


This thread is over at least from my side cause I can't reason with kids...

PS : don’t get rattled up if someone says a harsh ignorant comment about gays, instead read it over and over again and get the feeling of the theme!

[IceTea]

Originally posted by Cetacea


The point of my post was that fresh water and salt water readily mix and there is no barrier between them. If the Qur’an said “between them is a Barrier which they do not transgress”, then the Qur’an got it wrong, at least from a Scientific point of view. Unless you are going to tell me the English translation is not accurate… :scratch:

You got it wrong not the Quran, there is no comparison between Allah knowledge and weak human beings knowledge.

The Quran is talking about the seas not taking a glass of fresh water and a glass of salty water and mix them!! Because the second suitation will be like a drop in the ocean in what the Quran is talking about.

The non mixing of fresh and salty seas mentioned in many verses in the Quran:


[21:61]Or, Who made the earth a restingplace, and made in it rivers, and raised on it mountains and placed between the two seas a barrier. Is there a god with Allah? Nay! most of them do not know!

[25:53]And He it is Who has made two seas to flow freely, the one sweet that subdues thirst by its sweetness, and the other salt that burns by its saltness; and between the two He has made a barrier and inviolable obstruction.

[Cetacea]

Originally posted by Raed
Scientifically what you say is right and I can rebuttal it
I’m curious to hear how you are going to rebuttal it if you think what I said was right.

Originally posted by Raed
, but I have learned that discussions like these lead to no where out of experience .. So I will let it be..
Why back down? I don’t know what experience you had with others, but if you can come up with some credible scientific evidence to prove me wrong, I’m more than willing to change my position.

Originally posted by Raed
I feel like I am wasting time... and I am sorry to have concluded that and especially about you!
After all the accusation, you have not been able to prove me wrong. We are talking about people who lived in the desert not knowing much about estuaries. They weren’t any smarter or stupider than the people who lived on the Yangtze River Delta who didn’t know what a camel was. It would be nice if you could actually contribute some substance to the topic in addition to accusing me of being condescending.
Some of the biggest estuaries in the world aren’t that far from Mecca. Nile Delta is one and Tigris and Euphrates rivers being another. Sadly, people back then didn’t have the ability to explore beyond their immediate habitat.


Originally posted by Raed
By the way, the Verse talks about two salty waters, and the reason why they are salty is cause in the following verse Pearls are mentioned am sure in China just like in San Francisco and KSA everyone realizes that Pearls are CREATED in salty water..
There is a barrier between two salty waters?? Pearls? I’m not sure what you are talking about. You might want to clarify otherwise people might think you need some caffeine before you post.


Originally posted by Raed
PS : don’t get rattled up if someone says a harsh ignorant comment about gays, instead read it over and over again and get the feeling of the theme!
If you have a deep hatred for gays, just come out and say it. No need to imply it in a round about way.


Originally posted by Raed
This thread is over at least from my side cause I can't reason with kids...
If talking about scientific evidence scares you, you should probably stay away. Go argue with people who agree with you so you don’t lose sleep at night.

[Cetacea]

Originally posted by IceTea
The Quran is talking about the seas not taking a glass of fresh water and a glass of salty water and mix them!! Because the second suitation will be like a drop in the ocean in what the Quran is talking about.
Icey, did you read my post about estuaries and salt marshes? I was NOT talking about mixing salt water and fresh water in a glass. I was talking about places where rivers meet the ocean.

Here is the definition of estuaries: partially enclosed coastal body of water, having an open connection with the ocean, where freshwater from inland is mixed with saltwater from the sea. Because of its higher density, salt water enters the estuary at the bottom of a river, and the fresh water spreads out at or near the surface of the sea. Therefore, salinity in the estuary tends to increase with depth and with distance away from the mouth of the river. Some factors that affect degree of the mixing of fresh and salt waters: wind, tide, river flow, landscape and season.


Originally posted by IceTea
The non mixing of fresh and salty seas mentioned in many verses in the Quran:
Thanks for helping me prove my point. Now, please give me an example of a barrier between two seas and between salt water and fresh water.

[Arabian Princess]

Originally posted by Cetacea

Some of the biggest estuaries in the world aren’t that far from Mecca. Nile Delta is one and Tigris and Euphrates rivers being another. Sadly, people back then didn’t have the ability to explore beyond their immediate habitat.

Sorry but this isnt true .. one of the famous trips in early Islamic days were to Africa (alhabsha) ..
even though travelling mediums werent easy those days .. people did travele around

[Cetacea]

Originally posted by Arabian Princess
Sorry but this isnt true .. one of the famous trips in early Islamic days were to Africa (alhabsha) ..
even though travelling mediums werent easy those days .. people did travele around
You are right, they did travel around. Abu Bakr dispatched copies of the Qur’an to as far as Tashkent. I guess being there isn’t quite as same as exploring. If they knew all about estuaries, why did they write about “barriers” between salt and fresh waters?

[IceTea]

Originally posted by Cetacea
Icey, did you read my post about estuaries and salt marshes? I was NOT talking about mixing salt water and fresh water in a glass. I was talking about places where rivers meet the ocean.

Here is the definition of estuaries: partially enclosed coastal body of water, having an open connection with the ocean, where freshwater from inland is mixed with saltwater from the sea. Because of its higher density, salt water enters the estuary at the bottom of a river, and the fresh water spreads out at or near the surface of the sea. Therefore, salinity in the estuary tends to increase with depth and with distance away from the mouth of the river. Some factors that affect degree of the mixing of fresh and salt waters: wind, tide, river flow, landscape and season.


Thanks for helping me prove my point. Now, please give me an example of a barrier between two seas and between salt water and fresh water.

Here is the answer to your questions:

The Quran on Seas and Rivers:

Modern Science has discovered that in the places where two different seas meet, there is a barrier between them. This barrier divides the two seas so that each sea has its own temperature, salinity, and density.1 For example, Mediterranean sea water is warm, saline, and less dense, compared to Atlantic ocean water. When Mediterranean sea water enters the Atlantic over the Gibraltar sill, it moves several hundred kilometers into the Atlantic at a depth of about 1000 meters with its own warm, saline, and less dense characteristics. The Mediterranean water stabilizes at this depth2 (see figure 13).


http://www.islam-guide.com/ch1-1-e-img1.jpg
Figure 13: The Mediterranean sea water as it enters the Atlantic over the Gibraltar sill with its own warm, saline, and less dense characteristics, because of the barrier that distinguishes between them. Temperatures are in degrees Celsius (C°). (Marine Geology, Kuenen, p. 43, with a slight enhancement.) (Click on the image to enlarge it.)

Although there are large waves, strong currents, and tides in these seas, they do not mix or transgress this barrier.

The Holy Quran mentioned that there is a barrier between two seas that meet and that they do not transgress. God has said:

He has set free the two seas meeting together. There is a barrier between them. They do not transgress. (Quran, 55:19-20)

But when the Quran speaks about the divider between fresh and salt water, it mentions the existence of “a forbidding partition” with the barrier. God has said in the Quran:

He is the one who has set free the two kinds of water, one sweet and palatable, and the other salty and bitter. And He has made between them a barrier and a forbidding partition. (Quran, 25:53)

One may ask, why did the Quran mention the partition when speaking about the divider between fresh and salt water, but did not mention it when speaking about the divider between the two seas?

Modern science has discovered that in estuaries, where fresh (sweet) and salt water meet, the situation is somewhat different from what is found in places where two seas meet. It has been discovered that what distinguishes fresh water from salt water in estuaries is a “pycnocline zone with a marked density discontinuity separating the two layers.”3 This partition (zone of separation) has a different salinity from the fresh water and from the salt water4 (see figure 14).


http://www.islam-guide.com/ch1-1-e-img2.jpg
Figure 14: Longitudinal section showing salinity (parts per thousand ‰) in an estuary. We can see here the partition (zone of separation) between the fresh and the salt water. (Introductory Oceanography, Thurman, p. 301, with a slight enhancement.) (Click on the image to enlarge it.)

This information has been discovered only recently, using advanced equipment to measure temperature, salinity, density, oxygen dissolubility, etc. The human eye cannot see the difference between the two seas that meet, rather the two seas appear to us as one homogeneous sea. Likewise, the human eye cannot see the division of water in estuaries into the three kinds: fresh water, salt water, and the partition (zone of separation).

Indeed the Quran is the truth!

source (http://www.islam-guide.com/ch1-1-e.htm)

[Arabian Princess]

Originally posted by Cetacea
If they knew all about estuaries, why did they write about “barriers” between salt and fresh waters?

The thing you dont get here is that: THEY DIDNT WRITE IT, ALLAH REVEALED IT TO PROPHET MOHAMMED!!

Maybe you dont beleive in it, but it doesnt make it false!!

[IceTea]

Originally posted by Cetacea
If they knew all about estuaries, why did they write about “barriers” between salt and fresh waters?

Now you know the difference don't you ;).

[MoonChild]

Why is everyone getting ticked at Cetacea? She simply pointed out a simple fact (it doesn't even need to be called "science" if the word is threatening to you :rolleyes: ) ... and Ice Tea kindly proved her point -

when large bodies of sea water and fresh water meet, there is an initial density gradient such that they don't immediately merge. But as Ice Tea's graphics clearly show, there are definite zones of their gradual combining (see lower graphic showing 0% -> 10% -> 20% etc).

Where in this is the "forbidding partition"? Nowhere, of course. If you choose to test it, you'll find (as others have) that you simply cannot prevent 2 bodies of water from mixing based solely on their salinity - you can only manipulate the time frame to completion of the process.

Thus, those who claim that the Quran is revealing a scientific fact are simply wrong.

There are two conclusions: either the author of the Quran meant it as scientific fact (proving that it's not divinely revealed), or it was meant as something else entirely.

What God might have meant instead is almost irrelevent beside the reality that muslims are USING it as a statement of scientific fact and have become so blind to the world around them as a result, that even normally level-headed persons become hostile (yes, I'm talking to you X-Press & Raed :bored: ) even by reading what amounts to a class lecture on the subject.

that's a very dangerous psychological process, my friends.

[MoonChild]

after reading the responses again, I'm beginning to believe that Allah was referring to the immovable barrier between logic and belief...

AP, just because you don't "believe" that fresh and salt water don't mix, doesn't make it false. And it's only a willfully blind ignorance that keeps you from seeing the world around you as it is.

As long as you continue to claim that something patently false MUST be true because the Quran said so, you might as well be trying to tell us that the sun rises in the west.

You have 3 logical choices:
1. Conclude that since Allah wouldn't get it wrong, He must have been speaking symbolically.
2. Conclude that since Allah wouldn't get it wrong, someone else must have written that verse.
3. Have a psychotic break from reality and refuse to believe what everyone else sees, just because the Quran said something different.

[IceTea]

Originally posted by MoonChild

Where in this is the "forbidding partition"? Nowhere, of course. If you choose to test it, you'll find (as others have) that you simply cannot prevent 2 bodies of water from mixing based solely on their salinity - you can only manipulate the time frame to completion of the process.


If you read the last part of my post you will get the answer and don't try to act smart to stand against Allah miracles.



Thus, those who claim that the Quran is revealing a scientific fact are simply wrong.


Everything in the Quran is the truth, Allah told us in the Quran to look around us in the heavens, earth, in ourselves to discover Allah miracles and to strengthen our faith. Therefore you are the wrong and the Quran is not waiting for your approval to say right or wrong. But feel free to disprove/prove human made theories.



either the author of the Quran meant it as scientific fact (proving that it's not divinely revealed),

There is nothing called the "author of the quran", the Quran is not a human made book it's Allah words and even if all humans and jinns join togeather to produce something similar to this Quran they won't succeed.

[Raed]

Originally posted by MoonChild


What God might have meant instead is almost irrelevent beside the reality that muslims are USING it as a statement of scientific fact and have become so blind to the world around them as a result, that even normally level-headed persons become hostile (yes, I'm talking to you X-Press & Raed :bored: ) even by reading what amounts to a class lecture on the subject.

that's a very dangerous psychological process, my friends.

alright I am in for that.. Moonchild, finally a post that brings us together , I just wished that it was not particularly this one... but oh well.. Life's a ______ init?

Do u see me going hostile about what you claiming me to be? Not at all.. cause the way you approached me is different. Other members and I found that what she "the being" was going about is a bit rude.

To every action there is a reaction , Mam I will give you the respect that your age and you intellect deserves. However, I was never in about any scientific facts... I never referred to anything that had to do with the explanation of this Surah other than:

· the fact that I was asked to show why certain verses repeat themselves ..
· clarify that the type of waters mentioned in the Surah are salty water getting mixed with another salty water based on the fact that pearls are mentioned to be found in both waters.


What ticked me the most, is the way someone goes about stating stuff.. There is an art in winning audience, which you totally succeed in and she flunks big time!

I can argue with someone who says :

" There are two conclusions: either the author of the Quran meant it as scientific fact (proving that it's not divinely revealed), or it was meant as something else entirely."
fair enough to me it sounds like someone is seeking truth, it has respect towards my belief yet does not agree with it.. thats classy!

now when someone says


"Maybe there aren’t a lot of salt marshes in Saudi Arabia, that’s why the desert dwelling Qur’an writers didn’t know that salt water and fresh water actually mix, at least not in their neck of the woods. "
thats a bit trashy...


Again,

These discussions in my , silly opinion if you would view it to be, lead to no where other than going back and forth at the end of the day those who are Muslims will believe that it’s the word of Allah. While those who are not Muslims will believe the rest of us to be mesmerized and blind folded.

moonchild : pleasure meeting you mam.. when are you due by the way ? ;)

[jack]

IceTea
But when the Quran speaks about the divider between fresh and salt water, it mentions the existence of “a forbidding partition” with the barrier. God has said in the Quran:What is the real difference between "fresh water and salt water"?

When you answer this you will have your answer to the only thing that could be construed as a barrier.

Nothing to do with divine revelation ... fluid dynamics "Watson"

[IceTea]

Originally posted by jack
IceTeaWhat is the real difference between "fresh water and salt water"?

When you answer this you will have your answer to the only thing that could be construed as a barrier.


The answer from above post:

Modern science has discovered that in estuaries, where fresh (sweet) and salt water meet, the situation is somewhat different from what is found in places where two seas meet. It has been discovered that what distinguishes fresh water from salt water in estuaries is a “pycnocline zone with a marked density discontinuity separating the two layers.”3 This partition (zone of separation) has a different salinity from the fresh water and from the salt water4 (see figure 14).



Nothing to do with divine revelation ... fluid dynamics "Watson"

The whole universe is created million years before the so called "Watson" born.

[Cetacea]

Originally posted by X-press
With all my respect Cetacea, but your post really amuzes me, as the way your are expressing yourself it is as if the Quran was the words or the creation of some ignorant desert bedouins.
Please don’t put words in my mouth. I happen to have Bedouin friends and I have a lot of respect for them. They might not know much about estuaries, but they are not ignorant.


Originally posted by X-press
Do you realize that the Quran is the Word of God?
No. the Qur’an is a great accomplishment by the Arabs given what they knew 1400 years ago, but it was written by humans according to their knowledge of the world back then. Science and technology have moved forward in leaps and bounds since then and we know a lot more about our planet today than before.


Originally posted by X-press
Do you realize that God is the one who has created the desert and the sea and everything around and above it and HE doesn't need to be in a particular location on earth to know what is happening within His Creation?
You just proved my point. If he created everything, he should’ve known that there is NO “barrier” between salt water and fresh water.


Originally posted by X-press
Are you suggesting that God had no idea what HE was talking about when HE revealed verses 19 and 20?
I am suggesting that whoever wrote the Qur’an had very limited knowledge of the world because verses 19 and 20 contradict reality.

Xp, we’ve gone back and forth enough times that we both know this conversation is not going anywhere. My main interest is to get the facts out there which I will do in my reply to Ice Tea. How you interpret the Qur’an is not my business. Science can be debated, faith can not. Let’s just respect our differences and move on. If you are not interested in ocean currents or estuaries, please skip my long post below.

[Cetacea]

Originally posted by IceTea
Now you know the difference don't you ;).
This is another example of Islamic scholars twisting science to fit the Qur’an. You should try to find a secular source to back up your theory, preferably one written by an ecologist, not an Islamic scholar who copied and pasted a few graphs from a text book.

Here is the definition of Pycnocline: The portion of the water column where density changes rapidly because of salinity and temperature. In an estuary the pycnocline is the zone separating deep, more saline waters from the less saline, well-mixed surface layer waters.

1. “ Although there are large waves, strong currents, and tides in these seas, they do not mix or transgress this barrier.”

The Mediterranean water enters the Atlantic Ocean and drops down and forms the high-salinity tongue (the dark blue portion in your first graph). According to your theory, the tongue portion does not mix with the Atlantic water. The flow of water from the Mediterranean to the Atlantic is constant, therefore more Mediterranean water is entering the Atlantic Ocean every second. Where does this water go? If there is indeed a barrier between the two seas, we have to conclude that there is no current between the two. The fact is that the two bodies of water are constantly exchanging. The water inflow from the Atlantic to the Mediterranean is about 1.5 million cubic meters per second. Where does this water go if there is indeed a barrier? Mixing happens at different levels and different rates. At the front of the high-salinity tongue the Mediterranean water dissipates into the Atlantic ocean and is carried away by the thermohaline circulation.

If you want more academic information, here is an article written by Michael A. Spall, a Senior Scientist at the Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution.
http://www.whoi.edu/science/PO/people/mspall/pdfs/spall_medlabmodel_dsr1999.pdf

2. Barrier between salt water and fresh water.
I’m sorry to say that your graph pretty much proved my theory like MoonChild said. The lines drawn in your graph were meant to be illustrative. In reality, the salinity change in a verticall homeogenous estuary is more or less uniform. If you call a gradual change of salinity a separation zone, you might as well call the whole estuary the separation zone.

Here is an illustration from Encarta 2004:

Brackish zone is where salt water and fresh water mix to form brackish water which is salty, but not as salty as ocean water.

http://www.booh.com/temp/estuary.gif

Estuary: This diagram illustrates the three main types of estuarine mixing. Tides, wind, wave motions, and river runoff all contribute to create various water conditions within estuaries. Salt wedge estuaries, such as the Mississippi Delta, exist where the river current exceeds the tidal current. Equal river and tidal currents, such as those in the Chesapeake Bay, create a partially mixed estuary. Where the tidal range exceeds the freshwater inflow, as in the Bay of Fundy, mixing is more complete and a vertically homogenous estuary is created.

© 1993-2003 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

Estuary is one of the most important habitats in the San Francisco Bay Area. The fact that fresh water and salt water mix in estuaries is well-know even to elementary students. Estuaries are popular fieldtrip destinations for local school kids due to the abundant and diverse wildlife.

I took a quick look at the satellite map of the Arabian Peninsula and didn’t find any major rivers that run into the ocean, not a surprise due to the region’s dry climate. The closest estuary to Oman is probably in Basra area in Iraq, not a good place to be right now. A little bit further is the Nile delta. If you ever get a chance to go there, why not wade in the water, and dip your fingers in the water and tasted it. You’ll find it’s salty, but not as salty as the ocean water. Exploring is always fun.

The purpose of my post is to get the scientific facts straight. How you interpret the Qur’an is up to you.

Ice Tea, even though you got your facts all wrong, your participation is greatly appreciated. Sabla wouldn’t be fun without you. ;)

[Arabian Princess]

Originally posted by Cetacea

No. the Qur’an is a great accomplishment by the Arabs given what they knew 1400 years ago, but it was written by humans according to their knowledge of the world back then. Science and technology have moved forward in leaps and bounds since then and we know a lot more about our planet today than before.
.

Catacea, we respect you unbeleiving in Quran, but you should respect our Quran and stop calling it a man made one!!

[Cetacea]

Originally posted by IceTea
Modern science has discovered that in estuaries, where fresh (sweet) and salt water meet, the situation is somewhat different from what is found in places where two seas meet. It has been discovered that what distinguishes fresh water from salt water in estuaries is a “pycnocline zone with a marked density discontinuity separating the two layers.”3 This partition (zone of separation) has a different salinity from the fresh water and from the salt water4 (see figure 14).

I gave you the definition of pycnocline above.

How big is this barrier you are talking about? Is it 1 cm? 1m? or 1km?

[Cetacea]

Originally posted by Arabian Princess
Catacea, we respect you unbeleiving in Quran, but you should respect our Quran and stop calling it a man made one!!
If I tell you that calling Qur’an words from God is disrespectful to my beliefs. Would you stop saying that?

Xp asked me a question and I answered it honestly. Are you suggesting I should’ve lied? I think I've said enough about my opinion on the Qur'an, I won't bring it up anymore.

[IceTea]

Originally posted by Cetacea
This is another example of Islamic scholars twisting science to fit the Qur’an. You should try to find a secular source to back up your theory, preferably one written by an ecologist, not an Islamic scholar who copied and pasted a few graphs from a text book.


First of all I'm not a scholar (I wish I could be one) :). Second thing you wanted a sceintific evidences so from where we got them except from human made theories and books and that is what yourself did also, don't you?



The purpose of my post is to get the scientific facts straight. How you interpret the Qur’an is up to you.


Well you didn't bring anything new except claiming that the seas and fresh/salt water do mix to the end which is wrong. The barrier in both cases is there and human beings can't see such barrier as it's not a phyisical thing.



Ice Tea, even though you got your facts all wrong, your participation is greatly appreciated. Sabla wouldn’t be fun without you. ;)

Nothing wrong with the Quran facts. And thanks for your feelings ;).

[IceTea]

Originally posted by Cetacea
I gave you the definition of pycnocline above.

How big is this barrier you are talking about? Is it 1 cm? 1m? or 1km?

Does it mattter what is the length of the barrier, the important thing that it's there.

[MoonChild]

Originally posted by Raed
clarify that the type of waters mentioned in the Surah are salty water getting mixed with another salty water based on the fact that pearls are mentioned to be found in both waters.

:confused: Sorry still don't get the oyster connection. There are freshwater oysters that make pearls too...

I think of mixing/non-mixing has been discussed to death by now, won't repeat what Cetacea said so well...


thats a bit trashy...

...whereas I had no more emotional reaction to the idea of a desert-dweller not knowing about estuaries, than if she had commented on a woodland dweller like myself not knowing much about life in the jungle (or knowing about desert oases, for that matter!). Truthfully you and X-Press both came across as projecting your OWN negativity about the phrase "desert dweller", perhaps in Oman it's an insult but I'm certain Cetacea didn't intend it that way at all.



moonchild : pleasure meeting you mam.. when are you due by the way ? ;)

Likewise :) We're hoping the twins stay put until sometime in October- their official due date is November 1 :)

[jack]

Here's a miracle ... :(

When you use the "Seawater Desalination Process" you end up with "Fresh Sweet Water".

How did that "sweet water" get into the "seawater" if they weren't mixed to begin with.

Like I said it a miracle ... ;)

[MoonChild]

My apologies to X-Press for being involved in de-railing the intent of your thread, if we truly have...

Back on topic, I have a question.

the verse about "trees and herbs shall bow in adoration" .... is that supposed to be taken literally or symbolically?

[Cetacea]

Originally posted by IceTea
Does it mattter what is the length of the barrier, the important thing that it's there.
That's OK if you don't know. FYI, The Chesapeake Bay, the largest estuarine system in the US, covers approximately 165,760 square kilometers and includes parts of six states, New York, Pennsylvania, Delaware, Maryland, Virginia, and West Virginia, and the District of Columbia. This "barrier" you are talking about is 2/3 the size of Oman! ;) The San Francisco Bay-Delta Estuary is the largest estuarine system on the west coast of North and South America. It encompasses approximately 4000 square kilometers, and drains over 40 percent of California's land.

Can fish get through this barrier of yours?

Young salmon hatch in rivers and streams and spend the first part of their lives in fresh water. Some months later, they move to the saltwater of the Pacific Ocean and spend several years growing into adulthood. When the time comes, the salmon migrate back to the streams where they were born. Chinook salmon often make extensive freshwater spawning migrations to reach their home streams on some of the larger river systems. Yukon River spawners bound for the extreme headwaters in Yukon Territory, Canada, will travel more than 2,000 river miles upstream.

So your barrier separates the waters but has big enough holes to let millions of fish through?


Originally posted by IceTea
Well you didn't bring anything new except claiming that the seas and fresh/salt water do mix to the end which is wrong. The barrier in both cases is there and human beings can't see such barrier as it's not a phyisical thing.
I don’t blame you for not understanding estuaries given the dry climate in Oman. I don’t blame you either for not seeing the irony between “current” and “barrier” since logical thinking is incompatible with your doctrine. I’ve said all I want to say about oceans and estuaries. Now let’s get back to XP’s original topic. :)

I don’t understand every word in Surat Al-Fatiha but I think it is beautiful to recite it.

[MoonChild]

Originally posted by Cetacea
FYI, The Chesapeake Bay, the largest estuarine system in the US, covers approximately 165,760 square kilometers

We were there yesterday, it was a beautiful day :)

down at the mouth of the river at the bay, it was somewhat salty. You wouldn't want to drink it.

Later that afternoon we went upriver to the freshwater part to rinse off, but the water was too cold to get in.

I don't recall passing through any barriers ;)

[Wanderer]

Originally posted by X-press
With all my respect Cetacea, but your post really amuzes me, as the way your are expressing yourself it is as if the Quran was the words or the creation of some ignorant desert bedouins.

I think it would be rather harsh to call them ignorant Bedouins - it was 1400 years ago after all. We've learned a lot since then !

But fresh water and salt water DO mix. MoonChild and I were on a freshwater river that empties into a saline bay on Sunday. At the mouth of the river (on the bay), the water was quite salty and it got less and less salty as we traveled upstream towards the freshwater source.

Imagine how silly it would be for people to erroneously believe that salt and fresh water don't mix based on an incorrect interpretation of a passage in their holy book ! One would wonder what else was being misinterpreted and why the author wasn't more clear in the first place.

[Arabian Princess]

sorry if it sounds stupied .. but I have a question to the sabla scientiests:

if salt water and fresh water mixed, wouldnt we have a certain area with the same degree of salteness?

imagine we have two pools, one salty and one not .. and then we broke the wall seperating them .. wouldnt the water mix to a degree that all the water tastes simmiler?

why doesnt it happen in the sea?

[jack]

why doesnt it happen in the sea?Well it does A_P.

Look up the composition of sea water and you will find it is somewhere around 95% "fresh water".

Now how in the world did it get there? Did it break the "barrier"?

Do rivers get to a "barrier" and then turn and flow back into itself?

[Wanderer]

Originally posted by Arabian Princess

if salt water and fresh water mixed, wouldnt we have a certain area with the same degree of salteness?

why doesnt it happen in the sea?

AP, where is this fresh water in the sea that you speak of ?

Where fresh water rivers flow into salt water seas you just go from fresh to brackish to salty in degrees.

from http://www.aquariacentral.com/faqs/brackish/FAQ1.shtml#1a

1a) What is brackish water?

brackishwater is water which contains more sea salts than freshwater but less than the open sea. Moreover, brackishwater environments are also fluctuating environments. The salinity is variable depending on the tide, the amount of freshwater entering from rivers or as rain, and the rate of evaporation. As a result many brackishwater fishes are tolerant of changes in salinity, and in fact many positively benefit from similar periodic changes in aquaria.

(1b) Estuarine and low salinity environments and habitats

The environments from which brackishwater fishes are collected are diverse. Estuaries are the best known. An estuary is the part of a river where it meets the sea. Typically, estuarine waters are slow and sluggish, and often very silty and fertile. As a result they are not always as attractive to look at as the clear waters of a mountain stream, but they are tremendously productive. One characteristic of estuarine ecosystems, and brackishwater habitats in general, is that while productivity (the amount of food available) is high; diversity (the number of species) can be quite low compared with rivers or the sea. This apparent contradiction is because relatively few fish and invertebrates can tolerate the fluctuations in salinity. On the other hand, those animals that can live there do so in enormous numbers. Gobies, flatfishes and catfish are characteristic fishes of estuaries, ranging from the fresher waters upstream right down to the sea. A few freshwater fishes may occur in the least saline parts of the estuary (for example garpike, ropefishes and cichlids). Many marine fishes, especially as juveniles, inhabit the saltier part of the estuary (such as sea bass, flatfishes, tarpon and herring).

The above data can only be meaningful if fresh and salt waters mix.

[Wanderer]

Brackish water

"Brackish refers to water that is saltier than fresh water, but not as salty as sea water. It may result from mixing of seawater with fresh water, as in estuaries, or it may occur naturally, as in brackish fossil aquifers.
Technically, brackish water contains between 0.5 and 30 grams of salt per litre — more often expressed as 0.5 to 30 parts per thousand (ppt or o/oo). Thus, brackish covers a range of salinity regimes."

http://www.fact-index.com/b/br/brackish_water.html


Can there be any doubt that fresh and salty oceanic waters mix ?

[Cetacea]

Originally posted by Arabian Princess
sorry if it sounds stupied .. but I have a question to the sabla scientiests:
There is no such thing as a stupid question. We are all here to share our knowledge and learn from each other. I’m not a scientist, but I’ll try to answer your questions to the best of my knowledge.


Originally posted by Arabian Princess
if salt water and fresh water mixed, wouldnt we have a certain area with the same degree of salteness?
There are different degrees of mix – complete mix or partial mix.

If you pour a glass of fresh water and a glass of salt water in a blender and mix it for a while, you will get completely mixed water that is half as salty as the salt water.

But if you pour a half glass of salt water slowly into a half glass of fresh water, you will see that some of it is mixed, but most of the salt water stays at the bottom because of its higher density. Now pick up the glass and shake it lightly, you'll see more water gets mixed, but not completely. The best way to experiment at home is to put food dye in your salt water, so you can see clearly how it works. Food dye can be found in the baking section of the grocery store usually next to vanilla.

The blender example is at one end of the extreme and cocktail (sorry, I couldn’t think of a better example) is at the other, and nature is somewhere in between.

http://www.blaueskreuz.ch/jugi-thurgau/img/drinks-dreifarbig.jpg

The salinity of the ocean is not at all uniform. We don’t have a blender to mix the waters of all the oceans and rivers, but local forces – wind, tide, river flow, storms, etc, in a much smaller scale control how much the waters are mixed. Near the mouth of any river where there is large quantity of fresh entering the ocean, the salinity is much lower than say the middle of the Pacific Ocean. There is also a variance of salinity based on depth because naturally, saltier water is heavier, thus sinks down to the bottom of the ocean.


Originally posted by Arabian Princess
imagine we have two pools, one salty and one not .. and then we broke the wall seperating them .. wouldnt the water mix to a degree that all the water tastes simmiler?
Assuming there is no wind and you take out the wall between the two pools without any disturbance, the salt water will slowly enter the bottom half of the fresh water pool, and the fresh water will flow to the top of the salt water pool. There will be some degree of mixing because of the water movement, but the majority of the salt water will stay at the bottom half of the pool, and the majority of the fresh water will stay at the top half of the pool. Now put 20 screaming kids in the pool and let them play in there for a couple of hours, you will get a pool with uniform salinity and some urine. The point here is that there is no magic barrier between salt water and fresh water. They mix under external forces – gravity, wind, current, or tide.


Originally posted by Arabian Princess
why doesnt it happen in the sea?
Yes, it does. When two oceans meet, the waters do mix. The water from saltier Mediterranean enters the Atlantic Ocean and raises the salinity in the area near Spain, Portugal, Morocco, Canary Islands and Western Sahara.

The swimming pool model above doesn’t work well for rivers and oceans because rivers are at higher altitudes except when they reach an estuary. If oceans and rivers were at the same altitude, we’d all be drowned. The coastal area of Holland is a good example. Sitting on a land that is slightly lower than the sea level, they had to build dams to keep the sea water out. If the dams break, the sea water would rush in and destroy the farm land. Actually I think such disaster did happen during WWII when Hitler opened up the dam and flooded the area. History buffs can fill in the details here.

A more accurate model is two swimming pools – the fresh water one higher, and the salt water one lower. Between them is a slide where the water from the higher pool flows into the lower pool. Because of gravity, the salt water in the lower pool can not just pull itself up to the higher pool, therefore the higher pool will always remain fresh. But at the bottom of the slide, the fresh water and salt water mix freely. Imagine the lower salty pool being a million times bigger than the upper pool, now you have a model that is closer to reality.

Sorry it was a long post. Hope you didn’t fall asleep reading it. I couldn’t explain it thoroughly in a short paragraph.

[IceTea]

Originally posted by Cetacea


Can fish get through this barrier of yours?


So your barrier separates the waters but has big enough holes to let millions of fish through?


What kind of silly questions are those, the reason for the barrier is not to stop living creatures from moving between them as the barrier is not physical as we said before.



I don’t blame you either for not seeing the irony between “current” and “barrier” since logical thinking is incompatible with your doctrine.


If you notice that I mentioned many times that the Allah asked human beings to look around them and discover Allah signs in the universe, themselves, etc. If what you called human made 'logical thinking' incompatible with the facts stated in the holy Quran then it's rejected.



I don’t understand every word in Surat Al-Fatiha but I think it is beautiful to recite it.

If you need any help with the opening surah then you can ask ;).

[jack]

If what you called human made 'logical thinking' incompatible with the facts stated in the holy Quran then it's rejected.Did he tell you to reject the truth?

[IceTea]

Originally posted by jack
Did he tell you to reject the truth?

The Quran is the truth.

[X-press]

Originally posted by MoonChild
What God might have meant instead is almost irrelevent beside the reality that muslims are USING it as a statement of scientific fact and have become so blind to the world around them as a result, that even normally level-headed persons become hostile (yes, I'm talking to you X-Press & Raed)

I really find your comments unbelievable, if not very disrespectful towards Our Creator MoonChild, because whether you want to admit it or not, believe it or not, we have one Creator up there and for the life He has given us on earth, HE does deserve a little bit more respect than that!

I am sorry to tell you that if you find God's words irrelevant and that the muslims in this world so blind, they will never see your scientific facts as the true reality of God.

One thing for sure, any strong believer, whether Muslim, Christian or Jew will certainly look at all the creations in this world with a greater admiration and respect than any atheist.

Beside this last post, can you please tell me where in this thread I have been hostile against you or any other member?

[X-press]

Originally posted by Cetacea
Please don’t put words in my mouth. I happen to have Bedouin friends and I have a lot of respect for them. They might not know much about estuaries, but they are not ignorant.

Cetacea, I do not put words in your mouth. You suggesting that the Quran doesn't reflect the true reality of what is going on (scientifically) in this world and that "those" who wrote it had no clue of your estuaries, shows that you believe not only that these beddoins were ignorant, but that God Himself was ignorant!

I fully agree with Arabian Princess with her statement. You not believing that the Quran is the word of God, doesn't give you the right to be disrespectable towards Him, His messenger or His final book.


Originally posted by Cetacea
No. the Qur’an is a great accomplishment by the Arabs given what they knew 1400 years ago, but it was written by humans according to their knowledge of the world back then. Science and technology have moved forward in leaps and bounds since then and we know a lot more about our planet today than before.

So in short, you have more faith in man-made science than in the word of God...all I can say to you is "May God forgive you on Judgment Day!" (unless you need science to prove that there will indeed be a Judgment Day). I hope at that time, science will save your soul...


Originally posted by Cetacea
You just proved my point. If he created everything, he should’ve known that there is NO “barrier” between salt water and fresh water.

I am suggesting that whoever wrote the Qur’an had very limited knowledge of the world because verses 19 and 20 contradict reality.


Reality is what men observe, it doesn't mean that it is what we see. If God clearly say that the two waters don't mix, then the two waters don't mix...you can gather all the scientific 'datas' of the world and it will not change the fact that at the end the two waters don't mix.

[IceTea]

XP let us move from the barrier discussion, we said all what we believe in based on the book of turth (the Quran). And if Cetacea wants to continue thinking based on blender, cocktail and human made scientific facts then it's up to her. We said many times that the Quran facts can't be proved to be wrong.

[jack]

X-P

"May God forgive you on Judgment Day!"The fear factor only works on people that believe in God.

What exactly are you upset about?

That the barrier verse has been proven false?

You know you can't go here.

Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?

[MoonChild]

Originally posted by X-press
[B]I really find your comments unbelievable, if not very disrespectful towards Our Creator MoonChild,

What's up with you these days? You've been almost as weird as Icey :lost: My disrepect is not towards God, as you think, but towards human beings who misinterpret His words against all evidence.

Let me re-phrase the comment that upset you so much.

It is blindingly obvious that salt and fresh waters mix. It's also blindingly obvious that a Creator would know this, having Created the world that way. THEREFORE, using the simplest possible logic, IF God wrote (or more correctly had Gabriel dictate) that passage, it COULD NOT HAVE meant what you think it means. It MUST be symbolic because it's simply NOT LITERALLY TRUE.

I see no disrespect towards God in claiming that He knows what He is doing. If anything, I personally think you are being more disrepectful to God by claiming that He is ignorant of the basic laws of physics that He supposedly created!


I am sorry to tell you that if you find God's words irrelevant and that the muslims in this world so blind, they will never see your scientific facts as the true reality of God.

My point is that since God must have meant something symbolic by the passage, but since Muslims (at least the ones in this discussion and on the websites referenced) are taking it as literal, and presenting a falsity as true, then to THEM what God meant was irrelevant.

I'm more interested in what He might have really meant.

Unlike you, apparently, I believe that God Makes Sense, and does not expect us to believe things that are obviously wrong based on the evidence of the senses He told us to use.

sorry if you perceive a harsh tone but am just responding in kind to the tone of yours. My original comment about 'hostility' was in response to the way you jumped on Cetacea for her original post on estuaries.

I'm not stupid and I don't think God is either. You wanna believe otherwise go right ahead.

[MoonChild]

Originally posted by X-press
Cetacea, I do not put words in your mouth. You suggesting that the Quran doesn't reflect the true reality of what is going on (scientifically) in this world and that "those" who wrote it had no clue of your estuaries....but that God Himself was ignorant!
[/B]

No, she was suggesting that God didn't write the Quran.

After 4 years of participation in religion sabla, I'm not sure why all the sudden it's a big surprise to you that a non-muslim might feel this way :rolleyes:

[MoonChild]

And since these verses are literal, please show me where trees and shrubs bow in adoration.

[sanwin25]

Well there are those trees in that Australian forest......

[sanwin25]

When I saw XP post these comments, I realised that she had changed :


I repeat again that I think these militants would be 100% right if... they took the soldiers who tortured, humiliated, sexually abused and raped those innocent iraqis....and if they beheaded them instead. An eye for an eye as we say and revenge should be done against those who commit crimes. Going after an innocent men, who was absolutely not involved in this war, is 100% wrong to my opinion.

[IceTea]

Originally posted by sanwin25
When I saw XP post these comments, I realised that she had changed :

She shanged to the best after finding the right path.

Moonchild, why do you say I'm wired? :rolleyes:

[Wanderer]

Originally posted by IceTea

What kind of silly questions are those, the reason for the barrier is not to stop living creatures from moving between them as the barrier is not physical as we said before.



Please explain brackish water to us, IceTea.

Not a "physical" barrier ... is it a spiritual barrier ?

[Wanderer]

Originally posted by X-press
So in short, you have more faith in man-made science than in the word of God...all I can say to you is "May God forgive you on Judgment Day!" (unless you need science to prove that there will indeed be a Judgment Day). I hope at that time, science will save your soul...


It's not the word of god, it's the claimed word of god. But clearly not all of the text in the Quran is from god.

No god makes the threat of a Judgement day a little less likely ;)



Originally posted by X-press

If God clearly say that the two waters don't mix, then the two waters don't mix...you can gather all the scientific 'datas' of the world and it will not change the fact that at the end the two waters don't mix.

No matter how often we plainly see that they DO mix.

A person who continues to insist that the Earth is flat is considered mentally ill.

[Cetacea]

Whew… Let’s all calm down and take a deep breath. I didn’t know my initial post about estuaries and pelicans could spark so much hostility.

Originally posted by X-press
Cetacea, I do not put words in your mouth. You suggesting that the Quran doesn't reflect the true reality of what is going on (scientifically) in this world and that "those" who wrote it had no clue of your estuaries, shows that you believe not only that these beddoins were ignorant, but that God Himself was ignorant!
I say the Bedouins were not ignorant and you insist I should think they were ignorant. :confused: This exchange is becoming comical. Look, I don’t think you are ignorant because you can’t speak Chinese. The Amazon Indians know the rain forest inside out. But if you put me in the middle of Amazon, I’d probably die in a day because I have no clue what to do to survive. Does it mean I’m ignorant? I hope not. I simply have never had an opportunity to learn how to survive in a rain forest.


Originally posted by X-press
So in short, you have more faith in man-made science than in the word of God...all I can say to you is "May God forgive you on Judgment Day!" (unless you need science to prove that there will indeed be a Judgment Day). I hope at that time, science will save your soul...
The scare tactic only works on people who believe in Qiyamah. I don’t know why you got so ticked off at me. I didn’t say anything that other non-Muslim members hadn’t said before. You asked me some questions and I answered them honestly and truthfully, then you accused me of being disrespectful. It’s like your asking a non-Muslim “Do you believe in Islam.” The non-Muslim says no, then you accuse him/her of being disrespectful to Islam.

I’ve stated my position on the Qur’an and I’ve promised Arby not to bring it up anymore. If you or anyone else still want to jump on me, PM me.

After the drinking thread where I was told that my secular opinion was invalid, the Sin in Islam thread where I was told not to participate, and this thread, I begin to wonder if the word tolerance really means anything on Sabla. I’m going to stay away from your science vs. religion thread because anything I say would surely be viewed as disrespectful.

I think we can all agree that no matter what we say to each other, we are not going to convince each other. We’ve beaten the fresh water/salt water issue to death, and I’m tired of typing “estuaries”. I’m going to back off and I hope other non-Muslim members would stop pushing the issue for the common good of Sabla. Let’s put it behind us and move on to analyzing Qur’an verses, shall we?

Question:
005.069 Surely those who believe and those who are Jews and the Sabians and the Christians whoever believes in Allah and the last day and does good-- they shall have no fear nor shall they grieve.

Who were the Sabians? Where did they live? Are they still around today? What was their belief and why were they put in the same category as Jews and Christians?

[Shinoda LP]

I can't believe what's going on, in here. XP's thread opens up with :-


Muslims as well as non-muslims are welcome to participate here, comment and ask questions if they don't understand a particular verse.

Cetacea saw something wrong (or maybe XP's english translation was wrong) being posted and showed how fresh water and salty water could mix. And XP and AP flip out for that? :os Wierd!

XP, non-Muslims are non-Muslims for a reason! The reason might be "ignorance" and the reason might as well be "Quran's not right". Whatever the reason may be, you suggested non-Muslims to ask questions and "comment" here. I don't see why everyone should jump on Cetacea, while all she does is give a scientific study. Isn't ecology a part of geography, somewhere in middle school? I, personally, studied ecology in grade 8! :Shock:


So in short, you have more faith in man-made science than in the word of God...all I can say to you is "May God forgive you on Judgment Day!" (unless you need science to prove that there will indeed be a Judgment Day). I hope at that time, science will save your soul...

As a person who lays more importance on helping humanity and not looking down on ANY other person, all I can say is :- May God bless your soul and hence forgive you on Judgement day, XP! :)

[amo_l_oman]

AP and XP didn't mean to jump on any, infact you can give your opinion here cause that is the main problem:

http://www.englishsabla.com/forum/showthread.php?postid=351558#post351558

[IceTea]

Originally posted by Wanderer
Please explain brackish water to us, IceTea.

Not a "physical" barrier ... is it a spiritual barrier ?

This thread is not about brackish water.

It's a natural barrier.

[Shinoda LP]

Originally posted by amo_l_oman
AP and XP didn't mean to jump on any, infact you can give your opinion here cause that is the main problem:

http://www.englishsabla.com/forum/showthread.php?postid=351558#post351558

LOL, sure ...

[Shinoda LP]

Originally posted by IceTea
This thread is not about brackish water.

It's a natural barrier.

Actually, this thread is not about "natural barrier" either! Its about how either there has been an Arabic-English translation issue or how ancient bedouins never knew that salt water and fresh water mix?

[MoonChild]

Originally posted by IceTea
This thread is not about brackish water.

It's a natural barrier.

It's not a physical barrier, but a natural barrier?

What sort of barrier is "natural" but not "physical"?

Since you seem to have it all figured out, please explain, in detail. Is it, as Wanderer asks, a "spiritual" barrier? How does a "natural, non-physical" barrier allow fish and other living things to pass through, and allow salt to pass through but maintain it's status as "sweet and salt water don't mix?"

Since fish and salt pass through it, what exactly isn't mixing?

The point here, is not the "fresh vs salt water" debate per se, but the reasoning process used by Ice Tea to defend it.

He maintains that there is a natural, non-physical barrier that apparently lets physical things through - so what is it for, what does it do?

[IceTea]

MoonChild, I don't have to repeat things again and again. If you want to understand then go back to my previous post where both suitations explained using the graphs.

I will give you an example is the ozone layer a phyisical layer or natural, don't you think the sun light goes through it?


You can also refer to this (http://www.it-is-truth.org/SeasAndOceans.shtml) site if you need further scientific explanations.

[IceTea]

I found this also related to the issue we are discussing:

Qur’anic expressions have multiple meanings.

Qur’anic expressions have multiple meanings. For example, consider the verses: He let forth the two seas that meet together, between them a barrier, they do not overpass (55:19-20), which are repeated daily by Muslim worshippers. These verses indicate all the pairs of “seas” or realms, spiritual and material, figurative and actual, from the realms of Lordship and servanthood to the spheres of necessity and contingency, from this world to the Hereafter (including this visible, corporeal world and all unseen worlds), the Pacific and Atlantic Oceans, the Mediterranean and Red Seas, salt water and sweet water in the seas and underground, and such large rivers as the Euphrates and Tigris that carry sweet water and salty seas to which they flow. All of these, together with many others I do not need to mention here, are included in these verses, whether literally or figuratively.

So even if a Qur’anic verse or expression appears to point exactly to an established scientific fact, we should not restrict its meaning to that fact; rather, we should consider all other possible meanings and interpretations as well.

On the other hand, sometimes the Qur’an does point or allude to specific scientific developments and facts. Being the Divine Revelation that includes everything of wet or dry (6:59), it cannot exclude them. Indeed, it refers to them directly or indirectly, but not in the manner of science and materialistic or naturalistic philosophy.

[X-press]

After many differences of opinions between members above, I think it is time to move on and continue what Surah "Ar-Rahman" says:

http://quran.al-islam.com/GenGifImages/Normal/290X330-0/55/33/1.png



[33] O ye assembly of Jinns and men! if it be ye can pass beyond the zones of the heavens and the earth, pass ye! not without authority shall ye be able to pass!

[34] Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?

[35] On you will be sent (O ye evil ones twain!) a flame of fire (to burn) and a smoke (to choke): no defence will ye have:

[36] Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?

[37] When the sky is rent asunder, and it becomes red like ointment

[38] Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?



~ Which verses need more clarification to better understand their meanings?