What would you like to see Islam change?

[Cetacea]

As a non-Muslim who have traveled in the Middle East and have many close Muslim friends, I’ve been asked over and over again “Why don’t you convert to Islam?” Although I agree with many points made in the Qur’an regarding ethics, I couldn’t reconcile some of the major issues. I would probably give Islam a second look if the following are changed:

1. Attitude toward non-Muslims. Recognize other religions, mono or polytheism, as different paths to the same destiny. Respect all people as equal regardless of their beliefs. Get rid of the “holier-than-thou” attitude.

2. Justify killing using religious terms and call killers martyrs.

3. Adapt the religion to today’s world. Societies change and technologies move forward. Some of the rules and regulations that worked well in the 7th century could be obsolete in the 21st century. The doctrine that the Qur’an is the be-all end-all book hasn’t worked very well up to now and certainly is not going to work any better as the rest of the world move rapidly forward.

4. Either ban polygamy, or allow women to marry multiple husbands. My preference would be monogamy. ;)

5. Change the mentality that men are in charge of women and only men can be the head of a household. Give women full legal rights – right to vote, right to pursuit education and career, right to custody of children, right to travel freely, right to own properties and businesses without a male sponsor. Please don’t bring up the excuse “but men and women are different, so they can’t be equal.” I’m not talking about women flying fighter jets or competing in the same events as men. I would like to see women get the same BASIC human rights as men.

6. Ban slavery, honor killings, and female genital mutilation outright. None of these practices came from Islam. But I would’ve respected Islam a lot more if the Qur’ran had said these practices were barbaric and should be banned completely.

7. Change the Sharia law so women are viewed as human beings in the court. The notion that women are too emotional to be reliable witnesses, or women are not capable of judging the situation fairly is just ridiculous.
I didn’t include hijab, music, long bath, or fajir prayer as I think they are all minor points in the scheme of things. I would rather see women hold their own in hijab, than be submissive to men without hijab.

I’m bracing for a barrage of angry PMs. :duck:

[NaBHaN]

Reading your post , i couldnt help but feel bad and sad . not cause of what u said about islam , but cause what u mention is actually how things are in the islamic world right now. the mentality of most muslims now isnt at all what the quran and hadeeth taught us and advised us to be. Anger and hate has blinded many muslims and they are now thinking based on their emotions rather than their brains. those are the people who ruined islam's image.

I a muslim myself , but I too dont like most of what was mentioned above. I respect non muslims just like i respect my own muslim brothers , I dont justify killing unless if at war to defend yourself and rights . I dont agree with polygamy at all nor support it even though its ( halal in certain Circumstances only , which many muslims dont get and think that its halal to marry another woman as they please and whenever they please ).

------------

I wont get into all the human rights issues u raised there , cause Its true that islam did give more Privileges to men , but not to the extreme that most arabs go for now. women do have the right to education , a career and to express their views just like men do.

------------

Not all muslims are the same , believe it or not.. there are some who can actually think beyond their little thinking box and not be too extreme.

[Cetacea]

I just want to make it clear that my criticism was mainly toward the religious and political institutions, NOT individual Muslims. I have many Muslim friends who are open-minded, peace-loving, moderate and intelligent. They feel as frustrated as I do about the current state of the Middle East. Go to a Friday sermon in Mecca, Medina, or Sana’a and listen to what sheikhs are preaching these days. Read any newspaper from the Middle East and you’ll be hard pressed to find a balanced view. Nothing is going to change until people are willing to make the progress from within.

[Shinoda LP]

What you wrote there is true, till the end. I've had loads of Muslim friends, but I've met loads of hardcore Muslim people on this board who've given me $hit just because I'm a non-Muslim. People who's looked down on me as soon as they figured out that I'm not a Muslim ... no calling names, but at some point of time 'religion' does play a role in creating a divide in people.

Quite frankly, I have to think twice (sometimes thrice) before I start wondering if some particular girl might be the right girl for me. Not that I'm actively looking, but religious barriers just makes things a zillion times harder.

Can't marry a non-Muslim, you've lived in US for too long, you're brainwashed, you westerners have no morals, find one of your own ... :flamed:

[amo_l_oman]

Wouldn't change anything about Islam. What you described are Muslim attitudes from part of us as Nabs said, which is different.
I have the hope and am almost sure that people here are intelligent enough not to feel the need to send you bad pms.
Nice try anyway.

[Diva]

Cetacea, the only problem I have with what you've mentioned is that you've made it sound like Islam is the cause of whatever you have a problem with. It's important to distinguish between our religious obligations and what our cultures ask of us. It actually annoys me when ppl say things like 'Islam says nothing against forced marriages' for example because Islam actually is against it but not all Muslims follow Islam the way it should be followed.

The quran doesn't include a rule for single aspect of our lives just like you don't have one statute text that covers all the laws of a country. It's unreasonable to expect that. The quran doesn't need to explicitly prohibit honour killings for us to know that it's haram. The fact that some Muslims do that only means that they've done something punishable by Sharia law. Not that Islam actually promotes or encourages it! Even implying that it does is ridiculous!

As for things like men being allowed to marry more than one woman at the same time...if the wives themselves don't mind it then why the hell should we have a problem with it?? Just because we don't think that's right? What works for you might not work for others and vice versa. We have to be open-minded and realise that it's not 'our way or the high way'. I don't think you realise that if a man marries more than one woman and doesn't treat them both fairly then that's something he'll be punished for. He may not go to jail but Muslims are great believers in the after-life. Justice will be done. I appreciate that you may find that hard to understand (if you don't believe in the after-life) but we really are convinced that Islam is a way of life and many of us strive to follow it as best we could.

[Arabian Princess]

This is a very intresting thread .. and I really applaude you for the civilized way you brought up your point.

You brought up many issues up, and from my modest knowledge about my religion (I still have a lot to learn) I will try to give you my point of view.




1. Attitude toward non-Muslims. Recognize other religions, mono or polytheism, as different paths to the same destiny. Respect all people as equal regardless of their beliefs. Get rid of the “holier-than-thou” attitude.

2. Justify killing using religious terms and call killers martyrs.


You have two points here .. first, Islam recognize that there are other religions, infact many was mentioned in Quran ..
However, because some of the basies of those other religions dont agree on the bases of Islam (beleiveing that there is no God but Allah, and Prophet Mohammed peace be upon him is Allah's prophet) .. we cant agree on reaching to the same path.

If I beleive that we have ONLY one god, how do you expect me to agree that people who beleive that there are more than one god would share the same destiny?!
I say, its Allah to judge .. he has set what he accepts and what he doesnt .. and we as humans have to follow what seems right to us or what we beleive right to us.

I am aginst killing any human being because of differences in beleives .. I beleive thats aginst Allah's commands ..
However, if a muslim land has been attacked, we definatly should try our best to fight for that land. Its like belonging to a nation, if any one wanted to attack Oman .. I would fight for it until I die .. thats whats called patriotisim right?? and same goes to any other muslim land.
Why do you beleive that those shouldnt be called martryers is that you dont beleive its thier land in the first place, while to us .. its thier and they should fight for it. This is a long story by itself and its really complicated to go through it!


3. Adapt the religion to today’s world. Societies change and technologies move forward. Some of the rules and regulations that worked well in the 7th century could be obsolete in the 21st century. The doctrine that the Qur’an is the be-all end-all book hasn’t worked very well up to now and certainly is not going to work any better as the rest of the world move rapidly forward.

you see one of the basies of Islam is to beleive in Quran .. which is unchangable and is for any time.
I know you dont agree ... but its something you have to beleive in and you cant go looking for it through logic only.



I agree with Diva regarding the other points.

[jack]

A-P
However, if a muslim land has been attacked, we definatly should try our best to fight for that land.Can you give us some examples of "muslim land".

One that has a deed that says ... this is "muslim land".

For example ... your local mosque that you pray at ...

I would assume that land has a deed. What name is on the deed?

[Scottish]

Thank you for the thoughtful words and thoughtful responses.

Through all the rhetoric, all the flames...this is where true understanding lies.

I learned more on the questions, and the answers, then all the "preaching" I've seen on this site.

[Arabian Princess]

Originally posted by jack
A-PCan you give us some examples of "muslim land".

One that has a deed that says ... this is "muslim land".

For example ... your local mosque that you pray at ...

I would assume that land has a deed. What name is on the deed?

a land muslims (majority) lived.
Exp. Oman is a muslim land .. Palastine is a muslim land ;)

[fatak]

The thing that gets under my skin.....is all the contridictions you get from different muslims.........one says this the other says that!!!

And the authority of Islam in Saudi Arabia is really strange with all it's stupid fatwas.......

I met a guy in a pub in Thailand from UAE, he says I am muslim.....I say what the hell you doing here drinking and shaking down the girls.......????

It's better if they say I am Not a practicing muslim........

The other thing.......is oddly enough most muslims support political causes and don't know the facts at all......like in Israel....it's an automatic response.......and in fact most don't like the Palestinians at all......and especially not in their countries.

Because of Islam, they always find some excuse to put thenselves at the top....as in we are muslims, we are superior to you.

I really wonder if muslims can fit in with others.......

fatak

[Arabian Princess]

Fatak,

do all Christians act as real chrsitians? Do all jews act as real jews? do all buddhist act as real buddhist? do all hindus act as real hindus??

that happens to all religions .. its really sad to see educated people judging a WHOLE religion on the bases of a country or few people!

[Diva]

Originally posted by Arabian Princess
Fatak,

do all Christians act as real chrsitians? Do all jews act as real jews? do all buddhist act as real buddhist? do all hindus act as real hindus??

that happens to all religions .. its really sad to see educated people judging a WHOLE religion on the bases of a country or few people!

Too true. But you know what it's like. Only Muslims will get picked on cuz we're supposed to be perfect. :duh: And then we're supposed to be the uneducated ones!! If everyone expects us to be saints then maybe we really are superior.

[the best 4 ever]

excuse me but you would not like it if I talked about your relgion in this RUDE way you could have said it in a nicer way
any way,I dont agree with you Islam did so many things to protect us from so0o0o0o many things

[malak84]

Originally posted by Cetacea
As a non-Muslim who have traveled in the Middle East and have many close Muslim friends, I’ve been asked over and over again “Why don’t you convert to Islam?” Although I agree with many points made in the Qur’an regarding ethics, I couldn’t reconcile some of the major issues. I would probably give Islam a second look if the following are changed:

1. Attitude toward non-Muslims. Recognize other religions, mono or polytheism, as different paths to the same destiny. Respect all people as equal regardless of their beliefs. Get rid of the “holier-than-thou” attitude.

2. Justify killing using religious terms and call killers martyrs.

3. Adapt the religion to today’s world. Societies change and technologies move forward. Some of the rules and regulations that worked well in the 7th century could be obsolete in the 21st century. The doctrine that the Qur’an is the be-all end-all book hasn’t worked very well up to now and certainly is not going to work any better as the rest of the world move rapidly forward.

4. Either ban polygamy, or allow women to marry multiple husbands. My preference would be monogamy. ;)

5. Change the mentality that men are in charge of women and only men can be the head of a household. Give women full legal rights – right to vote, right to pursuit education and career, right to custody of children, right to travel freely, right to own properties and businesses without a male sponsor. Please don’t bring up the excuse “but men and women are different, so they can’t be equal.” I’m not talking about women flying fighter jets or competing in the same events as men. I would like to see women get the same BASIC human rights as men.

6. Ban slavery, honor killings, and female genital mutilation outright. None of these practices came from Islam. But I would’ve respected Islam a lot more if the Qur’ran had said these practices were barbaric and should be banned completely.

7. Change the Sharia law so women are viewed as human beings in the court. The notion that women are too emotional to be reliable witnesses, or women are not capable of judging the situation fairly is just ridiculous.
I didn’t include hijab, music, long bath, or fajir prayer as I think they are all minor points in the scheme of things. I would rather see women hold their own in hijab, than be submissive to men without hijab.

I’m bracing for a barrage of angry PMs. :duck:

Hello Cetacea:)

just wanted to comment in your points and i think we all honest in here so iwill be honest with you , sorry to say that but you got no enogh knowledge about islam. iwill tell you why..

1. we as muslims do respect the christianity, jew and other religions. the defference between islam and other religion is non of humen before changed somthing in it, NO one is changing it , ANd no one is going to chage it.Never and Ever.

i can give you some avedance , ok . go to england and see what is written in bible then go to caribian and see whats is written in the bible there........ist the same ? NO. infact they are not practising the same things.Now,go to Oman and see the Quran then go to south africa ....ist the same ?YES it is , everywhere even in UK,US, France......etc.

for your info. US scintest are using the Holy Quran to know more about the world......

2. put this in your mind "WOMEN ARE LIKE A DIMOND AND MORE IN ISLAM";)

ALot of things you need to read about first ,,,,,,,,and the most important thing is to understand the meaning of the words such as men power , is not like what you think .

[Scorpio27]

Very Important thread in deed. Thanks. I agree with Nabhan mostly.

But I think Islam is just fine, the problems are created by the followers, coz there are huge number of hypocrites there in every society.


So all people from all religion must be peace loving and respectful to other religions.
We should be modern and adopt new technologies but we never should adopt the new culture which is making mans machines and ruining family, social values and ties. Adopt modern life not leaving ethics and morality.

All good people from all religion are my brother and sisters. Wish peace and happyness for them.

TC bye 4 now

[um albanin]

As a muslim, I accept Islam as it is , Because I beleive that so far whatever I learned & understood was exactly right thing in the right place.



As a non-Muslim who have traveled in the Middle East and have many close Muslim friends, I’ve been asked over and over again “Why don’t you convert to Islam?” Although I agree with many points made in the Qur’an regarding ethics, I couldn’t reconcile some of the major issues.

Traveling to middle-east several times doesnt make you alligable to to convert nor to to understand islam as the true religion. whether you agree or you disagree its upto you, the truth is there & it doesnt need your acceptance.


I would probably give Islam a second look if the following are changed:

the teachings are not for change , If you r happy with it accept it if you dont leave it , you r not asked to accept it by force (you have your religion & I have mine)


1. Attitude toward non-Muslims. Recognize other religions, mono or polytheism, as different paths to the same destiny. Respect all people as equal regardless of their beliefs. Get rid of the “holier-than-thou” attitude.

Who said Islam doesnt respect other people of different religions,have you had a look at the the quraanic versis & hadeeth which teach us how to treat others , I told you being a frequent flayer doesnt mean you r an expert( neither do I ).
what do you mean by recognise?? does it mean accept that their word is true?? I am sorry , I cant do that , If you really beleive in democracy as you say, then I have the gutts to say what I beleive is true.
Equality is upto me , to respect people I will, but I cant accept polythiasm as brother, my loyalty is under the auspicy of my Lord.we can be freinds but not sisters.
If you beleive that we all are equel then YOU DONT NEED TO CONVERT TO ISLAM, WE R ALL GOING TO THE SAME PLACE AT THE END,,, DONT WE.why bearing the trouble of changing???



2. Justify killing using religious terms and call killers martyrs

Who can say that this war is justified & this isnt..... Humanbeings But not The Lord!! You mean killings can be justified by other calls apart from religious ones ?? I find it a bit funny. Islam doesnt allow killings without a reason.. all the reason are mensioned in quraan ... You can have a look if you want.


Adapt the religion to today’s world.
Human rules are changeble, like the bible that was changed several times by human, Lords rule are for eternity. Follow it correctly, you success, have it 50/50 you will have a turbulance. through the whole of it, your lost



Change the mentality that men are in charge of women and only men can be the head of a household. Give women full legal rights – right to vote, right to
The ship cannot have 2 captains, have you seen one, the natural physical & emotinal strength that is given to men by the lord is undeniable, why do we have to ignore it.. Have you ever heard a man that was rapped by a female(apart in movies)... the rest of the things are acceptable in islam you just have to dig in it, you donr even have to to dig far to know this.


Ban slavery, honor killings, and female genital mutilation outright. None of these practices came from Islam.
I thought we are talking about changing islam rules not the attitude of the lost muslims......


Change the Sharia law so women are viewed as human beings in the court
who said that women are not viewed as humanbeings, being non-illigable to be judges doesnt mean they r not human..their witnesses are accepted in court, as I said you havent done your assienment to be able to judge the religion of islam the way you did.

[Diva]

Very well said um albanin. Everything you wrote is spot on :app: :color: :app: :color: :app:

[jack]

their witnesses are accepted in courtIv'e done my assignment ... ;)

Are female witnesses = to a mans witness ... in court ?

And what makes a female witness not as credible in court as a man?

"um albanin" are you not as credible in a court room as your husband (that's if you are married of course)?

[um albanin]

Originally posted by jack
Iv'e done my assignment ... ;)

Are female witnesses = to a mans witness ... in court ?

And what makes a female witness not as credible in court as a man?

"um albanin" are you not as credible in a court room as your husband (that's if you are married of course)?

I am sorry but your assienment is not complete because the answer is in the quraan. 2 female for one male.. I know you know this.. but whay the answer is in the continuation of the verses... the ladies are more prone for forgetfullness, & this is a very obvious thing & common encountered in our daily life.
nothing is done without a strong reason behind it.
as I said before.


& yes I will be honered to be a half witness comparing to my husband.
me & you know less than a mechanic (scholars)about cars , & nothing comparing to the manufacturer (the creator)

[jack]

the ladies are more prone for forgetfullness, & this is a very obvious thing & common encountered in our daily life.Sorry ... I don't find this to be accurate in my daily life. It must be something in the water you drink. I'm sure others don't either ;)

My wife must be extrodinary ... :D

[um albanin]

She must be if she has taken you as a husband:haha:

actually *you*only see what you want, the truth is out there , if you really wanted it you would have it.. its not my mistake that you dont accept the truth.

[jack]

Originally posted by um albanin
She must be if she has taken you as a husband:haha:

actually *you*only see what you want, the truth is out there , if you really wanted it you would have it.. its not my mistake that you dont accept the truth. I see the same things you see ;)

We all make choices in life ... I have no problem with your choices, just don't make them out to be something they are not ... please allow me mine :D

[um albanin]

Everyone is allowed to choose, " La Ikraaha Fi alddeen" (No one is forced to enter Islam)

I beleive that My eyes see through a correct path.

one of your posts is missing, the one I replied for before this one.

[jack]

one of your posts is missing, the one I replied for before this oneAs you know members can't delete posts ... must have been mod or admin.

I do know exactly what it was and don't see any reason it should have been deleted.


the ladies are more prone for forgetfullness, & this is a very obvious thingAnd you remember it also ;)

edit: A-P split off some of the post in this thread to another thread more relevant and mistakenly moved that one

[um albanin]

oh yes its too soon to forget....

[Scottish]

the teachings are not for change , If you r happy with it accept it if you dont leave it , you r not asked to accept it by force (you have your religion & I have mine)

What is the punishment for apostasy in Islam? I mean, it's fine not to accept it, but if your parents are Muslim, and you are by birth and upbringing, what if you, as a thinking person, don't like it? Tough luck?

To help out:


A Muslim is not free to believe or do what he wishes. He is under Islamic law, which was derived and assimilated from the Qur´an, the example of Muhammad (sunna), the final analogy (qijas) and consensus (idjmaa).

Islam describes Muslims as worshippers and slaves of Allah (ibaad Allah). They have submitted themselves to him and are therefore his possession. The word Islam means, "surrender, devotion and submission".

Whoever falls away from faith in Islam commits -- from an Islamic perspective -- an unforgivable sin. He takes himself away from Allah, his owner -- which is theft -- and weakens the Islamic state, an action branded as revolt or insurrection. He who falls away from Islam must, according to the Sharia, be prosecuted, taken into custody by force, and called on to repent. If necessary, his return is to be "helped" along with torture. He who does not embrace Islam again has, according to the Sharia, forfeited his life and is to be put to death by the state. According to the daily paper, Al Alam, King Hassan II of Morocco, who is also the imam of his country, presented the following state of affairs before a human rights commission on May 15, 1990:

"If a Muslim says, 'I have embraced another religion instead of Islam,' he -- before he is called to repentance -- will be brought before a group of medical specialists, so that they can examine him to see if he is still in his right mind.

After he has then been called to repentance, but decides to hold fast to the testimony of another religion not coming from Allah -- that is, not Islam -- he will be judged."

http://www.light-of-life.com/eng/ilaw/


Indeed.

[um albanin]

Indeed!
the quoted paragraph you presented is not for apostasies. clearly they are judged differently , because they were muslims .

your website has it all. infact the first paragraph says:


Apostasy -- Allah forbid it -- is the unbelief of a Muslim who had publicly confessed faith in Islam willingly, according to his knowledge of the fundamentals of Islam, by professing the two main articles of faith (al-shahadatain):

If & only IF the son was brought up in islamic way , & He knew & understood the fundamentals of islam ( being born by muslims doesnt make him a muslim, he might be brought up abrad & know nothing about islamso he cannot be treated as such), then he is punished. & killing is not for the lad who has just reached puberty .

As I said before, you have your religion( born & lived as unbebeleivers) will have their own path & I have my own. soon as someone embraces islam he would be one of us, & he would follow the laws.

If you want to accept it (as it is ) you do If you dont its upto you, specifically to cetacea who wanted to give islam a secound chance.

[Arabian Princess]

edit: A-P split off some of the post in this thread to another thread more relevant and mistakenly moved that one
sorry about that :shy: .. your post is back ..

[um albanin]

.
Either ban polygamy, or allow women to marry multiple husbands. My preference would be monogamy.

a woman to have multiple husbands is out of question, unless we change to female dogs (*****es), since they are the only animals who does that.
The latest statistics in Uk ( saw in a program 2 weeks ago) showed that 80% of men commit adultry, i.e they have mistresses. mainly bcause we know the biology & physiolgy of man is certainly have the ability & desires far more than woman . wouldnt it be better to be in a perminant relationship than to be hidden & comit a sin.
Can I have a versis from quraan that says that they should be strong reasons (not only related to male biology) behind a second marrige.(this is for enigma & nabhan)

as far as I know, Islam ALLOWS IT , But do not stress on it to be a must according to the end of the aya ( if you fear that you wouldnt do justice then dont)

[Don Khaled]

Cetacea, the problem with your post is the title of it. "What would you like to see Islam change". The other problem is the solutions you gave. Your problem is that you mix with what people do with the religion itself. A human does not represent any religion, except that they would be a follower of it. So if all muslims are bad, then it is not necassary Islam is bad.

1. Attitude toward non-Muslims. Recognize other religions, mono or polytheism, as different paths to the same destiny. Respect all people as equal regardless of their beliefs. Get rid of the “holier-than-thou” attitude.

Why should Islam recognize all religions in order to make you join it? Islam made it clear to respect everyone and if someone wants to stick to their religion and not join islam, then to leave them alone.

2. Justify killing using religious terms and call killers martyrs.

Again, does that stop you from joining islam, just because killing had been justified using a religious statement or so?

3. Adapt the religion to today’s world. Societies change and technologies move forward. Some of the rules and regulations that worked well in the 7th century could be obsolete in the 21st century. The doctrine that the Qur’an is the be-all end-all book hasn’t worked very well up to now and certainly is not going to work any better as the rest of the world move rapidly forward.

Islam is very compatible with all times. It is how the scientists interrupt it which would make the difference.

4. Either ban polygamy, or allow women to marry multiple husbands. My preference would be monogamy.[/o]

If marrying multiple women would make it a big deal in a society, then ban it. Islam never said “You have no run-away from the marrying 4 ladies, and you SHOULD marry 4”.

[i] 5. Change the mentality that men are in charge of women and only men can be the head of a household. Give women full legal rights – right to vote, right to pursuit education and career, right to custody of children, right to travel freely, right to own properties and businesses without a male sponsor. Please don’t bring up the excuse “but men and women are different, so they can’t be equal.” I’m not talking about women flying fighter jets or competing in the same events as men. I would like to see women get the same BASIC human rights as men.

Again, you are talking based on people’s opinion.

6. Ban slavery, honor killings, and female genital mutilation outright. None of these practices came from Islam. But I would’ve respected Islam a lot more if the Qur’ran had said these practices were barbaric and should be banned completely.

You are contradicting yourself. You say at some point, these practices did not come from islam, BUT you would have respected Islam more if bla bla bla. Islam is FULLY against anything such as slavery.

7. Change the Sharia law so women are viewed as human beings in the court. The notion that women are too emotional to be reliable witnesses, or women are not capable of judging the situation fairly is just ridiculous.
I didn’t include hijab, music, long bath, or fajir prayer as I think they are all minor points in the scheme of things. I would rather see women hold their own in hijab, than be submissive to men without hijab.

Again, how can you call it ridiculous without looking into details on the reason why it was given out.

Conclusion, it is very sad to read such a post from mature person and saying that people’s attitude and rules should be changed before you enter Islam or if others want to enter it. When someone becomes muslim, they should become muslim because they believe in Islam, the religion itself, NOT the muslims. Do not blame a religion from people’s attitude.

When I was non-muslim, I used to be called names such as “kafer” “najis” and so on. But did that even affect me from joining Islam? People come in different tastes, opinions, and some interrupt things from the surface mainly. So if I was you, I would double think of what you’ve said above. Read more about the religion itself instead of worrying and focusing on what people do, if you are really interested in Islam.

[Scottish]

Sorry. I know a guy that was born and raised in Islam. He lived it for many years, but became disillusioned on the inequities (in his eyes). He chose to leave it, and now his family won't talk to him, and he is afraid to visit home because he is afraid for his life if he goes back home.

[Diva]

Originally posted by Scottish
I know a guy that was born and raised in Islam. He lived it for many years, but became disillusioned on the inequities (in his eyes). He chose to leave it, and now his family won't talk to him, and he is afraid to visit home because he is afraid for his life if he goes back home.

I personally know, have seen and heard of a hell of a lot more ppl that became Muslims by will than ppl who were born Muslim then later decided that Islam wasn't for them. I don't have any statistics but I'm pretty sure that there are more ppl turning to Islam than leaving it.

Oh...and very well said Don ;)

[Scottish]

Very true, since the penalty is death. That would tend to keep many people in ......... on paper.

[Diva]

Oh please. So you're saying that NONE of those Muslims who left Islam ever say anything?? Be more realistic. What tends to happen is that Muslims who don't believe in certain Islamic rules just don't follow them. Rarely do they decide to completely abandon the religion. Tell me honestly...without even having to use statistics and stuff, do you think there are more non-Muslims joining Islam or more Muslims leaving it?

[Scottish]

Honestly, have no clue. My personal feelings are that people need to find solace in religion. If it is Islam, so be it. I find nothing wrong with the religion. It has no more or less problems then Christianity does, in my opinion. Just the enforcement tends to be different by the religious "authorities".

I can also tell you of Christian excommunications for stupid reasons that tore apart families.

Again, I just think it's self agrandizing claiming this or that. It's like you have to reassure yourselves. Religion is good. All religion is good.

[Don Khaled]

Originally posted by Scottish
Very true, since the penalty is death. That would tend to keep many people in ......... on paper.

Lame excuse which some non-muslims use against the muslims. There are many muslims whom I know, did not hear of that rule, though it existed, but it is barely implemented in our times now. If you live in a hardcore religious family, then you might get slaughtered if you convert from muslim to something else. As I said, you "might".

[Scottish]

Don, that is no different then Catholicism. A friend of mine (in his 70's now) was excommunicated when he divorced his wife for valid reasons. His family is hard core catholic and turned their backs on him. So, his next marriage he was married by a justice of the peace, and they were married for 45 years now, but the church still consider him excommunicated, and his 2 children from that marriage as "bastards" even though they were married.

Extremism follows every religion, some more extreme then others. With the implementation of some peoples more extreme versions, it is indeed "possible".

The friend I'm speaking from is from Iran. And that is a whole different world there, from what I understand.

I will always concede that there are many rules that are "on the books" but are not always enforced. But if you are to follow the perfect book, how could you ignore them?

I'm not trying to split hairs, just seems too many people pick and choose how much they want to enforce their rules, and when the inequities are pointed out, it's always, "but that isn't enforced". Why not?

Catholics are no different. They go to church on Sundays, but then commit sins during the week...then go into confessional?

It really isn't "lame" if it "might". Is it? Would YOU take the risk of going back to Iran to very religious family that are angry that you married a westerner, and adopted her Christian religion?

[MoonChild]

Don, even though your response was to Cetacea, I agree with many of her points so you may have well been talking to me :)

And my response is that, many of the criticisms - for instance the inherent de-valuing of women compared to men, the conditions under which violence is permitted (or even encouraged or practically ordered), the systematic racism against the Jewish people - are ENTIRELY based on the Quran.

So my objection to Islam as a religion FOR ME, is based on what I have read in the Quran, NOT on what I have read about people who call themselves muslim. Because, let's face it, I personally know fabulous people from this board who are muslim, and the news reports are just - news reports.

I disagree completely with your assertion that it's perfectly OK to just ignore the parts of Quran teachings that you're uncomfortable with and still be muslims - as, you claim, many muslims today do.

If I'm going to convert to a religion, it's because I agree whole-heartedly with it's teachings. Otherwise, I'm admitting before I even start that God got it wrong so I'm free to ignore the parts I don't like...

[Wanderer]

If you cant express what you want to say in a better way, then dont express it wanderer!

edited by Arabian Princess

[Scorpio27]

I saw two Muslim converted to Christianity. Do you guys want to know why?
for poverty!. They were backed with finance and education by church.
I heard of some converted Christians they adopted the religion for money and foreign VISA’s.


In one sense I praise the Christians, that is, they spend money for religion and humanity.
Muslims are far behind them on the two issues.


Sorry if it hurts
:scary:

[Wanderer]

Originally posted by malak84
for your info. US scintest are using the Holy Quran to know more about the world......



No they aren't. Who put this nonsense in your head ?



Hey Arabian Princess !

You "gonna" edit this too, Arabian Princess ?

I swear The Prophet Mohammed was right when he said:

"Abu Sayeed al-Khodri reported that Muhammed was talking to a group of women when he said, '... I see the majority of you will go to Hell.' The women asked why, to which Muhammed responded, 'You often curse and are ungrateful to your companions.' He then told them they had a basic defect in their nature, to which they responded, 'How?' Muhammed answered, 'Is not the attestation (knowledge and witness) of a women only worth half of a man's? And that is on account of her short intelligence.'"
(Al-Hadis, Vol. 3, p. 137)

Maybe Muslim women shouldn't be moderators. They cannot be trusted with the power because of the "basic defect" the Prophet Mohammed described.

Or should women moderators be required to consult with a man before editing another man's post ?

That seems Islamic.

[Shakoosh Kabir]

LOL, W. Mooni, your last post is probably the wisest one I´ve ever read hereinabouts.;)

[Cetacea]

Sorry I’ve been away for a few days. I meant to reply here earlier, but I’ve been busy with work and family obligations. First of all, I’d like to make it clear that I have no intention to convert. It’s not a thread about “I’ll convert to Islam if you make these changes” Sorry if I confused you.

This thread is about what is written in the books, namely the Qur’an and Sharia Law, and in which direction Muslims are taking Islam. I haven’t read the Hadith and Sunnah yet, so I’m reluctant to comment on those. Every item I mentioned here has the corresponding Qur’an or Sharia text.

1. Attitude toward non-Muslims.

98:6Those who reject (Truth), among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein (for aye). They are the worst of creatures.
I didn’t come with up with this ayah. It was provided to me by a Sabla member when I asked a question about mushrikun. The hatred toward Christians, Jews, unbelievers, and polytheists permeate throughout the Qur’an. You can save the energy of quoting a few ayahs that talk about tolerance toward non-Muslims because I can come up with 10 times more ayahs that talk about how non-Muslims should be shunned, hated, and killed.

When it comes down to personal interactions with Muslims, I find the majority of them tolerant, hospitable and friendly. I wonder if they are peace-loving because of Qur’an’s teachings or despite of them.

I’m not a Christian and I don’t believe the Bible is any more tolerant than the Qur’an. I’ve seen what Christians and Jews have done to others in the name of their religions and I was equally disgusted.

2. Justify killing using religious terms and call killers martyrs.
[quote] 003.195 And their Lord hath accepted of them, and answered them: "Never will I suffer to be lost the work of any of you, be he male or female: Ye are members, one of another: Those who have left their homes, or been driven out therefrom, or suffered harm in My Cause, or fought or been slain,- verily, I will blot out from them their iniquities(evil deeds), and admit them into Gardens with rivers flowing beneath;- A reward from the presence of Allah, and from His presence is the best of rewards."

3. Adapt the religion to today’s world.
It’s interesting that when we discuss issues like marriage(muslim women marrying non-muslim men), dietary restrictions, judgment day, etc., I was told to read and believe the Qur’an literally. But when we discuss issues like polygamy, slavery, and killing non-Muslims, I am given all kinds of excuses and I am often told that I should look at the intension of the Qur’an, but not the literal words. Let’s take slavery for example. We’ve established in the other thread that Qur’an didn’t prohibit slavery but discouraged it. Devoted Sabla members have given page-long explanations that it was not feasible to ban slavery when it was prevalent 1400 years ago, and the intension of the Qur’an was to phase out slavery over time. I actually agree with that. The problem is that Qur’an is supposed to be suitable for the past, present, and future situations. If you have to make excuses for the Qur’an(telling people that it was written for a specific situation in the past), then you are basically saying that that particular passage doesn’t apply to the present day situation. So is there another passage that deals with slavery in year 2004? If not, then the Qur’an is perhaps inadequate to be used as a be-all and end-all book for the 21st century. Diva said that it is not reasonable to expect the Qur’an to include rules for ever aspect of lives. She is right. Some kind of amendment or reform is badly needed to bring Islam into the 21st century.

4. 5. 7. Equality for women
Similar to the slavery issue, I’m often told that the Qur’an advocated women’s rights. True back when women were treated like properties, but not so true in today’s world when women elsewhere enjoy way more rights then what’s prescribed in the Qur’an. The question for today’s Muslimas: are you happy that you are being treated better than women 1400 years ago? If the answer is yes, then there is no need for any change. If the answer is no, then you should start thinking about straying away from the Qur’an because following the Qur’an strictly is only going to get you less, not more rights. Feel free to use Afghanistan under the Taliban, Iran, Pakistan and Saudia as your guideline.

6. See 3.

[Cetacea]

Originally posted by Diva
It actually annoys me when ppl say things like 'Islam says nothing against forced marriages' for example because Islam actually is against it but not all Muslims follow Islam the way it should be followed.
Did I say anything about forced marriages? Take a look at this thread http://www.englishsabla.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22046
X-press gave a detailed description of what is considered a valid Muslim marriage.


Originally posted by Diva
The quran doesn't include a rule for single aspect of our lives just like you don't have one statute text that covers all the laws of a country. It's unreasonable to expect that.
That’s why it is time for some human interpretation that will bring Islam closer to reality.


Originally posted by Diva
The quran doesn't need to explicitly prohibit honour killings for us to know that it's haram. The fact that some Muslims do that only means that they've done something punishable by Sharia law. Not that Islam actually promotes or encourages it! Even implying that it does is ridiculous!
Two issues here. 1. Does Sharia law prohibit honor killings? I will have to do some research to get the answer. If you can find a passage that specifically outlaws honor killings, please post the link here. According to this article, my initial guess is no. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3088828.stm

'Honour killings' law blocked Parliament in Jordan has overwhelmingly rejected a proposed law imposing harsher punishments for men who kill female relatives in what are known as "honour killings".
In reality, people who carry out honor killings are rarely punished. Is it because such law doesn’t exist or the law is never implemented?
2. If I change the text from honor killing to stoning, would that make you happier?
Adultery is punishable by stoning under the Sharia law. Here is a video of stoning just for you. http://www.apostatesofislam.com/media/stoning.htm
Why don’t you watch the video and come back and tell us if you are for or against stoning adulterers.


Originally posted by Diva
As for things like men being allowed to marry more than one woman at the same time...if the wives themselves don't mind it then why the hell should we have a problem with it??
You are probably right. We’ve beaten this topic to death on Sabla. There is no point repeating it yet again here. Like I said before, nothing is going to change until people are willing to make the progress from within. This is one battle Muslim women have to fight themselves. If you are happy with the status-quo, all you are going to get is status-quo for the next 1400 years.

[Cetacea]

Originally posted by the best 4 ever
excuse me but you would not like it if I talked about your relgion in this RUDE way you could have said it in a nicer way
Are you hurt because I was rude or because I spoke the truth and that really hurt your ego? I have no religion, but you are welcome to open a thread to criticize Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, or Buddhism. I will probably chime in.


Originally posted by the best 4 ever
any way,I dont agree with you Islam did so many things to protect us from so0o0o0o many things
Thank you for your vague statement and thank you for your participation in the topic. Do you have anything to contribute?

[Cetacea]

Originally posted by malak84
1. we as muslims do respect the christianity, jew and other religions.
Mostly true among my Muslim friends. If the doctrine says you should not make friends with infidels but you do it anyway. Are you adhering to Islam or straying away from it?

"005.051 YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust."


Originally posted by malak84
the defference between islam and other religion is non of humen before changed somthing in it, NO one is changing it , ANd no one is going to chage it.Never and Ever.
This kind of attitude won’t get you anywhere. The fact that Muslims have not won a major battle against outsiders in 700 years and have not made any significant contribution to science in recent history should serve as a warning.


Originally posted by malak84
for your info. US scintest are using the Holy Quran to know more about the world......
Could you be more specific and provide some facts please? Who is using the Qur’an and what have they discovered? Anyone got the Nobel Prize from reading the Qur’an?


Originally posted by malak84
2. put this in your mind "WOMEN ARE LIKE A DIMOND AND MORE IN ISLAM"
How many carats?

[Cetacea]

Since two of your posts worth about one, I’ll just reply to your first one here.

Originally posted by um albanin
2Who said Islam doesnt respect other people of different religions,have you had a look at the the quraanic versis & hadeeth which teach us how to treat others , I told you being a frequent flayer doesnt mean you r an expert( neither do I ).

I wouldn’t be posting on Sabla if I were an expert. I thought this was a place we could ask questions and learn about Islam. If you think my understanding of Islam is incorrect, provide a logical argument. Attacking me personally only makes you look bad.


Originally posted by um albanin
The ship cannot have 2 captains, have you seen one, the natural physical & emotinal strength that is given to men by the lord is undeniable, why do we have to ignore it.. Have you ever heard a man that was rapped by a female(apart in movies)... the rest of the things are acceptable in islam you just have to dig in it, you donr even have to to dig far to know this.
This is the most absurd argument I’ve ever heard. It is bad enough that men write laws to suppress women, it is even worse to see women being so brainwashed that they accept the laws. According to you, men get to rule over women because they are strong enough to rape women? Oh boy! Which century do you live in?


Originally posted by um albanin
2 female for one male.. I know you know this.. but whay the answer is in the continuation of the verses... the ladies are more prone for forgetfullness, & this is a very obvious thing & common encountered in our daily life.
nothing is done without a strong reason behind it.
as I said before.
You are a physician, right? Are you forgetful and emotional? Shall we assign you a female companion doctor so two of you could function as one male doctor? In a recent thread (Did you forget already?) you said
The annoying thing is: Will I ever offer a helping hand as a doc while I am not, did she think that because I was wearing abaya, I couldnt be one. Or becuase I was an arab she had the guts of asking for an ID.
Whatever it is, the inferiority complex lives within the eastern comunities& I am not sure for how long will we ever have trust on ourselves. On one hand you complained that people didn’t take you seriously, on the other hand, you think women are obviously forgetful. If you don’t respect yourself, why should others take you seriously? Is there any difference between your attitude and that of the hostess?

[sanwin25]

Cat, you're not going to be very popular around these parts, what with you going around expressing an opinion !

About the diamonds, probably zirconium.

[Cetacea]

Originally posted by Don Khaled
Cetacea, the problem with your post is the title of it. "What would you like to see Islam change". The other problem is the solutions you gave. Your problem is that you mix with what people do with the religion itself.
What SHOULD I judge Islam on? Why don't you enlighten me? If I look at the actions of Muslims, you tell me to read the Qur’an. If I use the Qur’an (allowing 4 wives, for example), you tell me that even though polygamy is allowed, most people don’t practice it. Which one is it? The book or the people? Or do you get to pick and choose whichever one that helps your argument? Give me a present day example of a successful Islamic state that exemplifies the true spirit of Islam – Saudia, Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Yemen, Sudan? When I look at the Middle East, I see one failed state after another and one dictator after another. The more moderate and successful states (Oman, UAE, Qatar, Bahrain, for example) got there because they moved further away from Islam. Obviously I can’t judge Islam based on Bin Laden, Saddam, Arafat, Hamas, Al-Sadr, Khomeini, Ali Abdullah Saleh, the Saudi Royal family, the Wahabis, the suicide bombers, the kidnappers, the Nick Berg killers, the Taliban. I looked high and low, where can I find a present day Muslim role model?

Originally posted by Don Khaled
A human does not represent any religion, except that they would be a follower of it. So if all muslims are bad, then it is not necassary Islam is bad.
I disagree with you completely. If ALL Muslims are bad, it is time to question the doctrine!

Originally posted by Don Khaled
Again, how can you call it ridiculous without looking into details on the reason why it was given out.
Um Albanin gave the reason in her reply. Do you agree with her?


Originally posted by Don Khaled
Conclusion, it is very sad to read such a post from mature person and saying that people’s attitude and rules should be changed before you enter Islam or if others want to enter it. When someone becomes muslim, they should become muslim because they believe in Islam, the religion itself, NOT the muslims. Do not blame a religion from people’s attitude.
I’m not planning on converting. I should’ve made it clear in my original post. I’m however concerned with the future of Islam and that’s why I brought up the topic.

[Scorpio27]

Islam actually doesn’t need to change anything. We the followers have to change our attitude and thinking. We have to broaden our mind spread our love and put our holy hands together despite religious barriers to make the world peaceful and heaven like.

Not only Muslims but all religions member has to be good, understanding, friendly, caring and all the rest positive attitude of human quality to be Human. If you can become human you are satisfying God the creator, for what he had to send Bible, Koran and other holy books for us.

Be human. That’s all. Religion is not the culprit, but some of us are.

[Diva]

Originally posted by Cetacea
Did I say anything about forced marriages?

No you didn't. It was just an example of the sort of thing ignorant ppl like to say.


Originally posted by Cetacea
That’s why it is time for some human interpretation that will bring Islam closer to reality.

We feel that it's already as close to reality as anything will ever get.


Originally posted by Cetacea
Does Sharia law prohibit honor killings?

Sharia law prohibits ANY unlawful killing.


Originally posted by Cetacea
In reality, people who carry out honor killings are rarely punished. Is it because such law doesn’t exist or the law is never implemented?

Just because they're not punished doesn't mean that what they've done isn't wrong. Blame the law enforcer, not the law.


Originally posted by Cetacea
2. If I change the text from honor killing to stoning, would that make you happier?
Adultery is punishable by stoning under the Sharia law. Here is a video of stoning just for you.

Thanx for the link. I haven't yet seen the video but I certainly will. But even before I do I assure you I am all FOR stoning adulterers. If that's what Islam prescribed then I don't have a beef. And if you're not an adulterer or in a Muslim country, you shouldn't either.

[Diva]

Originally posted by Cetacea
This kind of attitude won’t get you anywhere. The fact that Muslims have not won a major battle against outsiders in 700 years and have not made any significant contribution to science in recent history should serve as a warning.

WTF??


Originally posted by Cetacea
This is the most absurd argument I’ve ever heard. It is bad enough that men write laws to suppress women, it is even worse to see women being so brainwashed that they accept the laws.

So we're brainwashed because we don't think like you?? That's an absurd assumption. You seem to think you're an open-minded person. Well being open-minded means thinking outside the little box you're in and realising that not everyone lives in your little world. There are different ways of doing things and just cuz your way works for you doesn't mean that everyone else should adopt you're 'great' :rolleyes: way of life.

[fatak]

I assure you I am all FOR stoning adulterers.

YOU my dear are living in the 7th century, and so so primitive.......

This kind of punishment is inhuman, and wrong.....if your religion condons it.....then your religion is WRONG>>>and lacks compassion.......

fatak

[Diva]

Originally posted by Cetacea
I’m not planning on converting. I should’ve made it clear in my original post. I’m however concerned with the future of Islam and that’s why I brought up the topic.

Fair enough. You're not planning to convert therefore none of the rules that you have a problem with apply to you or even affect you. So why, pray tell, are you so concerned with the future of Islam?? I admire anyone who wants to learn about anything just to have that knowledge (even if they won't ever be able to use it). But from what I've seen you've already made up your mind that Islam is a messed up religion that oppresses women and stones adulterers. Haven't you learnt everything you wanna learn then??? What more do you wanna know? You've asked your questions and ppl here have tried to answer as best they can and you've also done your own research. You're still not convinced so what more are you expecting? That we're all gonna leave Islam and follow whatever in the world it is you believe in? I hate to break it to you (if it hasn't yet hit you) but there's a bigger chance of hell freezing over than that happening. Oh...but you don't believe in hell...or do you? Apologies if you do but see I'm having a hard time trying to keep up with what ppl around here believe in.

[Diva]

Originally posted by fatak
YOU my dear are living in the 7th century, and so so primitive.......

This kind of punishment is inhuman, and wrong.....if your religion condons it.....then your religion is WRONG>>>and lacks compassion.......

Actually I'm living in the 21st century (not that I'd mind living in the 7th) and that kinda thing still happens if you didn't notice. If you think it's wrong then fair enough. Just don't get caught doing anything dodgy around this area cuz if you get caught and sentenced to death (by any method) I sure as hell won't be fighting for your release! :6: :D

[sanwin25]

Truly a fine representative of the Religion of Peace™.

[Diva]

Originally posted by sanwin25
Truly a fine representative of the Religion of Peace™.

You really think so? I'm flattered :angel:

[MoonChild]

Diva, why all the hostility?

We're here for discussion. We're discussing. If you can't take it when people disagree with you, go play a computer game, or read Cosmo :rolleyes:

[Scottish]

Originally posted by Diva
Actually I'm living in the 21st century (not that I'd mind living in the 7th) and that kinda thing still happens if you didn't notice. If you think it's wrong then fair enough. Just don't get caught doing anything dodgy around this area cuz if you get caught and sentenced to death (by any method) I sure as hell won't be fighting for your release! :6: :D

In this area? Your adee says you are in the UK. I don't believe we are prescribing death for adultery in the UK. Which part of UK are you in? East London?

Seems somewhat sad that you are so judgemental on somebody else that you would prescribe death. To each their own. And perhaps, if you are in UK, you should stop living here. We don't sentence to death (by any method) for adultery. We obviously don't meet your standards.

[Diva]

Originally posted by MoonChild
Diva, why all the hostility?

We're here for discussion. We're discussing. If you can't take it when people disagree with you, go play a computer game, or read Cosmo :rolleyes:

What hostility?? You think I'm hostile becuz I don't agree with what's been said?? How on earth are we supposed to have a discussion then??? :duh: If you're referring to what I said to Fatak then chill, woman. Apologies to him if he was offended (although I think he's tougher than that) but it was just a joke. ;) Or is it only alright when you guys crack jokes :bored: I guess Muslims even have a different sense of humour!

Oh and I'll leave the computer games to your little kids and the Cosmo to your LOVELY self :rolleyes:

[Diva]

Originally posted by Scottish
In this area? Your adee says you are in the UK. I don't believe we are prescribing death for adultery in the UK. Which part of UK are you in? East London?

Actually I was talking about the Middle East in general. My bad.


Originally posted by Scottish
Seems somewhat sad that you are so judgemental on somebody else that you would prescribe death.

Correction: I would not prescribe death. The law would. I'm not in any position to decide who should or should not die for any reason whatsoever. Again what I said to Fatak was a joke. I can only blame my twisted sense of humour.


Originally posted by Scottish
And perhaps, if you are in UK, you should stop living here.

Are you asking me to leave your precious country? :sweat: Unfortunately for you, your Government's allowed me to live here for a certain amount of time. And I assure you that as soon as my business's done with this place I'll be out. This is not, and never will be, my home. Just like you probably think the UK's the best place in the world to live, I think the same of Oman.


Originally posted by Scottish
We don't sentence to death (by any method) for adultery. We obviously don't meet your standards.

Good for you and your ppl. If your legal system works for you then that's great. But plz don't be so arrogant as to think that that's how every other legal system should operate. As you said, to each his own. You guys live your lives by your standards and we'll live ours by our standards. Let's just respect that and stay out of each others' business.

[fatak]

I don't recall any of those Omanis doing adultury in Thailand and Morrocco getting stoned upon return........to Oman.

I don't think they stone people to death in Oman.......

I do know some people get "stoned"....however.

fatak

[Diva]

Originally posted by fatak
I don't recall any of those Omanis doing adultury in Thailand and Morrocco getting stoned upon return........to Oman.

I don't think they stone people to death in Oman.......

True...and I'm not about to suggest that they start stoning ppl but the fact is adultery is a problem in the Arab Muslim world (as well as outside it of course) and something needs to be done to curb the problem. Now I don't have the perfect solution that everyone will be pleased with but I do know that if my husband ever had an affair/one-night stand or anything along those lines, what I'll do to him aint gonna be pretty. And I don't care whether everyone in the world thinks it's inhumane/barbaric...etc.

[fatak]

Mama Mia........sheskabob!!!

You can't forget one little mistake!!!

If Allah can forgive why can't you???

fatak

[MoonChild]

Originally posted by Diva
What hostility?? You think I'm hostile becuz I don't agree with what's been said??

This is the part I thought where I thought you taking things a bit personally...


But from what I've seen you've already made up your mind that Islam is a messed up religion that oppresses women and stones adulterers. Haven't you learnt everything you wanna learn then??? What more do you wanna know? You've asked your questions and ppl here have tried to answer as best they can and you've also done your own research. You're still not convinced so what more are you expecting? That we're all gonna leave Islam and follow whatever in the world it is you believe in? I hate to break it to you (if it hasn't yet hit you) but there's a bigger chance of hell freezing over than that happening.

You've already given your opposing opinion that the things she objects to are perfectly all right with you ... OK fine. But when you go on to attack her for continuing the discussion, and IN THAT TONE, you come across as hostile. thus my comment.


Or is it only alright when you guys crack jokes. I guess Muslims even have a different sense of humour!

There you go again. I don't even remember what you said to Fatak. But now you're making some absurd generalization that I, as a "Westerner", am opposed to "muslims" making jokes :rolleyes:

And you just get more rude from there.

Basically you come off as telling Cetacea to shut the hell up and not voice her reasoned opinion, you act offended that a discussion is occurring where some people voice their disagreements with parts of Islam, and act as if you believe we're all out to destroy your faith.

Like I said, that sounds hostile. And there's no need, unless you're feeling insecure.

[Scottish]

Originally posted by Diva
Actually I was talking about the Middle East in general. My bad.

OK, thanks for the clarification.


Correction: I would not prescribe death. The law would. I'm not in any position to decide who should or should not die for any reason whatsoever. Again what I said to Fatak was a joke. I can only blame my twisted sense of humour.

It is unfortunate when one has no choice in the laws.



Are you asking me to leave your precious country? :sweat: Unfortunately for you, your Government's allowed me to live here for a certain amount of time. And I assure you that as soon as my business's done with this place I'll be out. This is not, and never will be, my home. Just like you probably think the UK's the best place in the world to live, I think the same of Oman.

Actually, UK is not the best place to live in this world. Real estate is too high, cost of living is high, so on, so forth. So much for your assumption. I'll be moving Summer of 05. Too cold and wet for my kids, and my kids want more things to do.

I just don't live in Oman for an extended period of time, and insult it while reaping all it's benefits.


Good for you and your ppl. If your legal system works for you then that's great. But plz don't be so arrogant as to think that that's how every other legal system should operate. As you said, to each his own. You guys live your lives by your standards and we'll live ours by our standards. Let's just respect that and stay out of each others' business.

It's when one imposes their brand or values on the other. In this I agree. It is their laws, and personally, couldn't care less how many of their own people they kill in the most mideval of ways. It is no different then the death penalty here. It's just methodigy in the long run.

[Diva]

MoonChild, if you think I'm being hostile then fair enough. You don't seem to understand why myself and others around here take certain things offensively and I don't expect you to appreciate just how important our religion is to us. But the least you could do is just accept that we consider some of things said here (not just this thread...the Sabla in general) offensive. Just becuz you can't understand why that's so doesn't mean we shouldn't get offended!! Maybe I went about expressing myself the wrong way but if Cetacea has any problem with what I've said then she can take it up with me.:exp:

[Enigma]

You're turning this into a personal argument...... mind if we get back on topic? ;)

[Diva]

Originally posted by Scottish
Actually, UK is not the best place to live in this world.

You might think so now but there's no place like home.


Originally posted by Scottish
I just don't live in Oman for an extended period of time, and insult it while reaping all it's benefits.

Sure but that doesn't mean it's perfect. There's no need to insult anyone or anything but I see nothing wrong with constructive criticism.

[Scottish]

Originally posted by Diva
You might think so now but there's no place like home.

Sure but that doesn't mean it's perfect. There's no need to insult anyone or anything but I see nothing wrong with constructive criticism.

Thank you for your opinions. True. Whatever problems we have at home, they are uniquely our problems. We're moving, not getting rid of the house here.

I think that's the best point Diva. Right or wrong, problems or not, there's no place like home.

[MoonChild]

Wouldn't it be boring if every place were the same... had the same expectations of it's citizens? I think it's awesome that we can pick a country to live in that has laws that agree with our style of living. It only sucks when they won't let you leave...

One size does NOT fit all - for lifestyle, religion, or anything.

[Diva]

Originally posted by MoonChild
Wouldn't it be boring if every place were the same... had the same expectations of it's citizens? I think it's awesome that we can pick a country to live in that has laws that agree with our style of living. It only sucks when they won't let you leave...

One size does NOT fit all - for lifestyle, religion, or anything.

I totally agree! (surprised?). Each one of us has different needs and expectations. I doubt anyone's found the 'perfect' place to live but we can all just try to make the best of wherever in the world we are. I think many ppl here are disgusted/outraged with all the evil that religious conflict has caused but are we any better? Many of the threads here in the Religion Sabla involve ppl trying to piss others off/purposely offend others/showing off their religion to be best...etc and at the end very little good comes out of a topic that could've been discussed maturely. And here we are talking about how we should be tolerant of others beliefs!!

I know Cetacea hasn't yet replied to what I said earlier but I apologise in advance if she thinks I've taken it too far. I didn't mean to be insulting or offensive but that's still no excuse.

[MoonChild]

Originally posted by Diva
I totally agree! (surprised?).

LOL not at all :) I find that others are surprised when I agree with them far more often that I am :color:


Many of the threads here in the Religion Sabla involve ppl trying to piss others off/purposely offend others/showing off their religion to be best

True, and I find it an interesting little microcosm of the world :D
But it goes through phases - some threads exist simply to bash someone else, but many ARE exploring religious topics with non-malicious intent (which doesn't stop some people from getting offended). Personally I love applying the discoveries of science and archaeology to religious claims or legends and seeing how they match (or fail to) ... not maliciously, but because it's darned interesting ... but some find that extremely offensive ... and I just say, refute me convincingly, or just ignore me if it makes you uncomfortable ;)

I've enjoyed this particular thread, because Cetacea gave a nice summary of the common objections that many people have (or would have if they bothered to explore Islam), which gives muslims an opportunity to respond ... I've enjoyed reading the responses and don't see it as bashing one side or the other but simply exploring different perspectives.

Truthfully I don't think any non-muslims joined this board with a thought to converting - I think most are like me and joined to learn more about the PEOPLE from a region and religion that seemed to be becoming our adversary much to our surprise ... but beyond that the diversity of religion and personality dictates the degree to which they try or avoid trying to convince each other of our own opinions ;)


And here we are talking about how we should be tolerant of others beliefs!!


:D again a pretty lesson about the world, eh? I often chuckle at the irony, both here and in politics

[Homeless]

It was said before, and I'd say it again .. what u just said has nothing got to do with islaam .. Islaam is a full spotless religion and god made it just perfect hamdellah ... but these are just the attitudes of some muslims and it doesnt mean it has to reflect to the islaam as a religion!!

[Cetacea]

Originally posted by Diva
Many of the threads here in the Religion Sabla involve ppl trying to piss others off/purposely offend others/showing off their religion to be best...etc and at the end very little good comes out of a topic that could've been discussed maturely.
It was not my intention at all to offend others or to prove my religion to be the best. As an agnostic, I have nothing to show off. I listed the problems I have with Islam (the doctrine, not the people) and I gave my reasons. If you disagree with me, provide a valid argument.

Originally posted by Diva
And here we are talking about how we should be tolerant of others beliefs!!
I read the Qur’an and I disagree with your statement. I don’t think the Qur’an teaches you to tolerate other beliefs, at least not in “Muslim land”. Maybe you can explain to my why you believe you should go against Qur’an’s teachings and tolerate other religions. Personally I’d be happier if we stop labeling people as Christian, Jews, or Muslims and treat each other just like people.


Originally posted by Diva
I know Cetacea hasn't yet replied to what I said earlier but I apologise in advance if she thinks I've taken it too far. I didn't mean to be insulting or offensive but that's still no excuse.
I actually don’t have any problems with anything you said. The mods might have a problem with comments like “WTF”, but I don’t. I’ve been told worse things by Christians and Muslims, and I never take anything personally. You have the right to defend your religion just like I have the right to ask questions. I just hope that there was more substance in your argument than mere offensive comments. I appreciate others like AP and Nabhan who have provided convincing arguments.

OK, back to the topic. You said that “Sharia law prohibits ANY unlawful killing.” The key word here is unlawful. Is honor killing unlawful according to Sharia? I don’t know the answer. I searched on the internet and couldn’t find a copy of Saudi’s penal code. Any Sharia experts feel free to jump in.

[Diva]

Originally posted by Cetacea
It was not my intention at all to offend others or to prove my religion to be the best.

I wasn't indirectly referring to you. I was just talking about the Religion Sabla in general.



Originally posted by Cetacea
I read the Qur’an and I disagree with your statement. I don’t think the Qur’an teaches you to tolerate other beliefs, at least not in “Muslim land”. Maybe you can explain to my why you believe you should go against Qur’an’s teachings and tolerate other religions. Personally I’d be happier if we stop labeling people as Christian, Jews, or Muslims and treat each other just like people.

When I said tolerant I just meant we should just accept that not everyone is like us. Now I don't know where in the quran it actually says that we shouldn't be tolerant of the beliefs of others which don't contradict our teachings. I don't know how to explain what I wanna say so I'll just give you an example. Let's say someone's religion requires them to drink a pint of beer every morning and that person happens to live in a Muslim country. Alcohol is haram in Islam and so Muslim countries should not allow any alcohol in the country. So basically a follower of that religion should not expect to be allowed to consume alcohol in that country. Now I know that there are many bars in a lot of Muslim countries but I couldn't think of a better example. If that's what you meant by not being tolerant of other religions then fine.



Originally posted by Cetacea
Is honor killing unlawful according to Sharia? I don’t know the answer. I searched on the internet and couldn’t find a copy of Saudi’s penal code. Any Sharia experts feel free to jump in.

OK I'm no expert but here's what I think. Honour killings usually happen becuz a girl has 'shamed' her family. Normally it's because she lost her virginity before getting married. The Sharia has already prescribed a punishment for that (100 lashings...mentioned in the quran). So Sharia does not prescribe death for that sorta thing. And even if it did...Sharia doesn't allow ppl to take the law into their own hands. That's prohibited (there's a hadith that prohibits that but I don't remember it). I've also heard various religious scholars saying that honour killings are haram.

[Scottish]

So the honour killing of a girl that was raped by a man is HER death? It has happened.

[MoonChild]

What about the Quran-ordered death sentence for apostasy?

I can't get past that one...

[Cetacea]

Originally posted by Diva
When I said tolerant I just meant we should just accept that not everyone is like us.
That’s the same tolerance I was talking about. You don’t need to love the non-believers, just don’t hate them, don’t fight them, don’t prevent others from marrying one, don’t impose a special tax on them, don’t kill them, and don’t tell them to burn in hell.


Originally posted by Diva
Now I don't know where in the quran it actually says that we shouldn't be tolerant of the beliefs of others which don't contradict our teachings.
Any religion that is not Islam contradicts Islam in some way. Show me a religion that should be tolerated in “Muslim land” according to the Qur’an. In Saudi even the Shiites get discriminated against let alone the Christians and Jews.


Originally posted by Diva
I don't know how to explain what I wanna say so I'll just give you an example. Let's say someone's religion requires them to drink a pint of beer every morning...
Banning Alcohol is relatively minor comparing to the death penalty prescribed for apostates. Like MoonChild, I can’t get past this one either. The Qur’an also tells you to leave your brothers and father if they are non-believers. I don’t’ have the Qur’an with me at work, but I’ll post some quotes later.

I read the Qur’an and I didn’t get the impression that it preached peace. The majority of the Muslims(except a few militant ones) are tolerant of other religions not because of the Qur’an, but because they are decent human beings. When you pick out a few verses from the Qur’an that advocate peace and ignore hundreds of verses that advocate intolerance, you have in fact used your own judgment and veered away from the true spirit of Islam.

Admittedly, the Bible is not any more tolerant than the Qur’an, but I don’t know of any country that based its legal system and national polities entirely on the Bible.


Originally posted by Diva
If that's what you meant by not being tolerant of other religions then fine.
Then don't complain when France banned headscarves in schools. Hijab contradicts their teachings. How do you feel if the US government bans Muslims here from praying 5 times a day because it contradicts the teachings of Christianity?


Originally posted by Diva
I've also heard various religious scholars saying that honour killings are haram.
Various religious scholars also said that music was haram. Did it prevent Muslims from listening to music? Last time I checked, the Music Sabla had 11135 posts.

[Cetacea]

Here are some quotes from the Qur'an regarding tolerance of other religions.

002.007
YUSUFALI: Allah hath set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing, and on their(disbelievers) eyes is a veil; great is the penalty they (incur).

002.010
YUSUFALI: In their hearts is a disease; and Allah has increased their disease: And grievous is the penalty they (incur), because they are false (to themselves).

002.096
YUSUFALI: Thou wilt indeed find them(Jews), of all people, most greedy of life,-even more than the idolaters: Each one of them wishes He could be given a life of a thousand years: But the grant of such life will not save him from (due) punishment. For Allah sees well all that they do.

002.161
YUSUFALI: Those who reject Faith, and die rejecting,- on them is Allah's curse, and the curse of angels, and of all mankind;

002.190
YUSUFALI: Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors.
002.191
YUSUFALI: And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.

002.217
YUSUFALI: …And if any of you Turn back from their faith and die in unbelief, their works will bear no fruit in this life and in the Hereafter; they will be companions of the Fire and will abide therein.

003.028
YUSUFALI: Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah: except by way of precaution, that ye may Guard yourselves from them. But Allah cautions you (To remember) Himself; for the final goal is to Allah.

004.056
YUSUFALI: Those who reject our Signs, We shall soon cast into the Fire: as often as their skins are roasted through, We shall change them for fresh skins, that they may taste the penalty: for Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.

004.089
YUSUFALI: They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;-

005.033
YUSUFALI: The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;

005.051
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.

006.070
YUSUFALI: Leave alone those who take their religion to be mere play and amusement, and are deceived by the life of this world. But proclaim (to them) this (truth): that every soul delivers itself to ruin by its own acts: it will find for itself no protector or intercessor except Allah: if it offered every ransom, (or reparation), none will be accepted: such is (the end of) those who deliver themselves to ruin by their own acts: they will have for drink (only) boiling water, and for punishment, one most grievous: for they persisted in rejecting Allah.

008.050
YUSUFALI: If thou couldst see, when the angels take the souls of the Unbelievers (at death), (How) they smite their faces and their backs, (saying): "Taste the penalty of the blazing Fire-

Alright, that’s enough for one night. For a much longer list, please go to http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/int/long.html

[Diva]

Originally posted by Cetacea
Then don't complain when France banned headscarves in schools. Hijab contradicts their teachings. How do you feel if the US government bans Muslims here from praying 5 times a day because it contradicts the teachings of Christianity?

I never complained. In fact I always said that even if we think they're wrong at the end of the day if we go to France we have to live by their rules. Simple as that. And how will the US stop Muslims from praying in their own homes?? Have a guard in every single house?????


Originally posted by Cetacea
Various religious scholars also said that music was haram. Did it prevent Muslims from listening to music? Last time I checked, the Music Sabla had 11135 posts.

I've been trying to stress this point right from the start. Not all Muslims follow Islam the way it's supposed to be followed. Have you never heard of Muslims drinking alcohol? I personally know a hell of a lot. Does that mean drinking alcohol is permissible in Islam? NO!! What are the scholars supposed to do? Watch all Muslims 24/7 and beat them with a stick when they stray? We are not here to please ppl. As I said before we believe that everything we do now will either be rewarded or punished in the hereafter. Tell me do you abide by every single little law in your country? You've never driven on a highway faster than you should've??? C'mon it's unreasonable to expect anyone not to have ever broken at least 1 rule, even it if was insignificant.

[Diva]

The punishment for apostasy stands as it is. I don't know what more you want me to say about that.

As for tolerance, I'll just mention one surah titled 'Al Kafirun' (the disbelievers). As you can tell from the title it's actually dedicated to the disbelievers and here's what it says:

1. Say: O disbelievers
2. I worship not which ye worship
3. Nor worship ye that which I worship
4. And I shall not worship that which ye worship
5. Nor will ye worship that which I worship
6. Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion

That's the entire surah. It's surah number 109 if you wanna check it out yourself. Now if this doesn't clarify Islam's position then nothing else will.

I don't know about you but I'm kinda beginning to lose the plot here. We just keep going over the same things that everyone here already knows. The laws of Sharia are never gonna change, regardless of whether we like it or not or whether they're inhumane or whatever else ppl think they are. If ppl are gonna follow the rules then great, if not so be it.

[MoonChild]

Originally posted by Diva
The punishment for apostasy stands as it is. I don't know what more you want me to say about that.

I was just wondering if you have an opinion about it, if you think it's fair or too harsh; for instance would you carry out the sentence if your son or daughter left Islam? Why or why not?

As for me, I don't think that God is that petty; therefore I don't believe that He actually commanded Death for someone who leaves Islam; therefore I think that single command invalidates the Quran as a true message from God. But that's just me, I'm interested in YOUR thoughts. The whole point of discussion is to learn different viewpoints, not to agree with each other necessarily...



1. Say: O disbelievers
2. I worship not which ye worship
3. Nor worship ye that which I worship
4. And I shall not worship that which ye worship
5. Nor will ye worship that which I worship
6. Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion


I've always like that Surah, but how do you reconcile it with the several surahs posted by Cetacea? Do you, or do you not, perceive an inconsistency in what is supposed to be God's message to mankind, and His instructions for how to think about, and treat, each other?


We just keep going over the same things that everyone here already knows. The laws of Sharia are never gonna change, regardless of whether we like it or not or whether they're inhumane ... [/B]

DO you think they are inhumane? If so, why do you think God is inhumane?

The "plot" is the discussion of those points (that everybody knows) and whether they are a barrier to becoming Muslim or not; whether those points bother born-Muslims... again I don't see any of the participants trying to convince the other, but just discuss our thoughts about the topic. You'll never convince me that death for apostasy or 1 man=2 women is what God had in mind, but I'm still very interested in YOUR thoughts about it as you live your religion (and the thoughts of anyone else who cares to chime in).

[Diva]

Originally posted by MoonChild
I was just wondering if you have an opinion about it, if you think it's fair or too harsh; for instance would you carry out the sentence if your son or daughter left Islam? Why or why not?

My opinion...OK...I don't know whether to think it's fair or too harsh. But the way I see it apostasy, if anything, is a crime against God and no one else. So if I knew an apostate I wouldn't try to get him executed becuz I believe that such a person will get what they deserve in the hereafter. So God will either decide that that person should go to heaven or hell. If a person turns against Islam I don't see how that would affect me. That's something that's completely between a person and God.



Originally posted by MoonChild
I've always like that Surah, but how do you reconcile it with the several surahs posted by Cetacea? Do you, or do you not, perceive an inconsistency in what is supposed to be God's message to mankind, and His instructions for how to think about, and treat, each other?

As far as I'm concerned I don't see any inconsistency in Islam. I truly believe that every single law/rule is there for a reason and I'm convinced that the quran doesn't contain a single flaw. When it comes to discussing the laws themselves, an expert on Sharia law is in a better position to clarify things.



Originally posted by MoonChild
DO you think they are inhumane? If so, why do you think God is inhumane?

I don't think, and have never thought, that God is inhumane. I'll be honest with you. As I've grown up a Muslim and have been taught pretty much everything I need to know about Islam that I apply on a day-to-day basis, I haven't really felt the need to sit down and scrutinise every little aspect of Sharia. It's only when I started my law degree that I've even tried to look at things in depth. Take the punishment for adultery as an example, which you think is inhumane. Muslims already know that if they have illicit sex when they're already married, that's a crime punishable by death so why do it? I definitely don't intend to so even if ppl think the punishment is harsh, it doesn't bother me cuz the way I see it that'll never apply to me. If someone does wanna do things that are harshly punished in Islam then as you mentioned in an earlier post, it'll be great if they could move to another part of the world and do whatever they wanna do without the threat of being severely punished. It may be inconvenient but that's where a person has to decide for themselves what's more important. I personally love the fact that Oman is quite conservative and if I ever feel suffocated by its laws then I can either take a break to somewhere more liberal or even move.

[MoonChild]

Thanks for your replies :) I just find it soooo interesting to learn about people of different cultures :)

[Diva]

Originally posted by MoonChild
Thanks for your replies :) I just find it soooo interesting to learn about people of different cultures :)

So do I :) I must admit I was one of those ppl that used to think it was impossible to have a decent life if ppl didn't live the way we did in Oman. But, hey, I was just a silly teenager. I'm glad I had the opportunity to come to UK and be exposed to so many different cultures (through meeting different ppl at university) cuz it's made me appreciate what we have even more and also realise that 'there's more than way one to skin a cat'! (sorry...I couldn't think of a more pleasant saying :yuck: ) ;)

[Cetacea]

Originally posted by Diva
I never complained.
I was referring to a thread someone else started. I just thought it was interesting that some Muslims (not you) expect us to be tolerance of Islam in our countries while they themselves are intolerant of other religions in Muslim countries.


Originally posted by Diva
C'mon it's unreasonable to expect anyone not to have ever broken at least 1 rule, even it if was insignificant.
That was not my point. I was searching for an answer in Sharia regarding punishment for honor killing perpetrators. I still don’t know since I can’t find a copy of Saudi or Iran’s penal code. I consider honor killing a greater crime than adultery. If Sharia prescribes stoning for adultery, don’t you think it should prescribe beheading for honor killing? An eye for an eye, right? If someone wrongfully killed another person, this person should be executed. But from my other research, I believe that there is no such prohibition in Sharia law. If a father kills the daughter, he goes free, if a woman gets raped (if she can’t produce witnesses) and has a child out of wedlock, she gets stoned. Sorry, it just sounds backward to me.

The fact that scholars consider honor killing haram is undermining the seriousness of it. They basically put honor killing, drinking alcohol, listening to music in the same category knowing that people won’t follow the rules anyway. You pretty much proved my point. Yes, I know a lot of Muslims who drink.

[Cetacea]

Originally posted by Diva
But the way I see it apostasy, if anything, is a crime against God and no one else. So if I knew an apostate I wouldn't try to get him executed...
I appreciate your sharing your view with us. If more of us (including the fundamentalist Christians hell bent on converting everyone else) think the way you do, we’d have a more peaceful world to live in. Your tolerance came from your inner self, not the Qur’an. If the Qur’an tells you to kill apostates, and if you don’t do it, you are going against the Qur’an.


Originally posted by Diva
As far as I'm concerned I don't see any inconsistency in Islam.
If you ignore the inconsistencies, the Qur’an is in fact perfect. In one chapter, it tells you to leave the disbelievers alone; in another chapter it tells you to kill them wherever you find them. Did you look at the URL I provided? There are over 300 ayahs that preach intolerance. I’d say the 300 ayahs are more significant than the one you found, don’t you think so? Why did you choose to follow one ayah that meets your moral stands and ignore the ones that you felt uncomfortable with?

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying you should follow the Qur’an and kill disbelievers. We are fortunate that the majority of the Muslims are not following the Qur’an to the tee. ;). Everyone who reads the Qur’an gets different things out of it. I’m just glad that humanity wins, in most cases.

[Wanderer]

I'd like to see Muslims praying towards Jerusalem again, like the first Muslims did.

[assikulee]

Assalaam alaikum,

I've read this thread with some interest, as an Islamophile and as a student of both the Arabic language and Islamic history, among other things. Much of this debate seems to center on whether the religion "needs to change" in the face of modernity, with some confusions over behavior versus law, and then there's some major sub-issues like individual rights and tolerance. Is this a wrong assessment?

All this reminds me of when my Islamic history teacher talked about ijtihad as applied to the Quran, and especially, the hadith in the development of sharia law. In a nutshell, the idea was that while the word of God is indeed holistic, it was not presented to humans as, say, the Law of Hammurabi was-- that it required the addition of the human faculty to reason, in order to be applied to day to day affairs. The study in preparation to do this gave rise to the ulama, or religious-scholarly class, which is not a priesthood but plays similar judicial functions to the church heirarchy of medieval Europe, in a very approximate way (because, for example, it's not a spiritual heirarchy but an academic one). Further, there was some debate for a while among Shias about whether people could do this for themselves or not, and the latter position seems to have generally prevailed by the 19th century, which explains the Ayatolla system.

According to my "Islam for Dummies" book (a wonderful and easy to read introduction to the deen, isbn # 0-7645-5503-0), "Closing the door of ijtihad" (page 131):

"By the end of the tenth century, legal scholars felt that all major legal issues had been decided. They said that the "door of interpretation" (ijtihad) was closed and Muslims henceforth had to consult past decisions collected in the books of the various law schools (taqlid).

(the quote continues)
"Rulers determine which School of law applies in their countries, while individuals choose which School of law to follow in their personal lives. Most follow the School of law that is dominant where they live. When legal cases arise that aren't addressed in older law, a judge or ruler or individual asks the opinion of a mufti (legal consultant) about the case. The mufti issues a fatwa. Other qualified individuals can render contrary decisions, but the decision has to be based on the `four roots of law.' Decisions made after the closing of the door aren't part of a School's consensus and can't serve as the basis for a new decision.

(the quote concludes with)
"Ibn Taymiyya and some other Hanbalites rejected the concept of the closing of the door."

I don't mean to quote at too much length to y'all, except this does seem to get to the heart of this question rather concisely. Would folks disagree? If not, the reasons why may be illuminating to further discussion.

But if peeople do agree, then it seems to simplify many of the questions here in the direction of facing the problem of ijtihad: whether old interpretations of a sacred text may be adapted to a new situation (as they used to be, from the time of the death of the Prophet, pbuh, to about the tenth century), and who would decide whether it would be appropriate to "reopen" the "door" of ijtihad in light of a significantly, materially changed world?

Isn't that kind of what this debate is all about?

I offer the suggestion by way of introducing myself to the forum. Although I live in California, I am the Sicilian, and while I am not yet a believer, nor do I disbelieve. I am a scholar, in the Western tradition, and I am here both to learn and to test that which I have already learned.

assalam alaikum,
--assikulee

[Cetacea]

What an introduction! You must’ve taken the Sabla prize of “the most academic 1st post” :)

Now go to this welcome thread and tell us about your nickname. I hate to speculate. :laugh: http://www.englishsabla.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22921

Your approach to Islam is a lot more academic than mine. I had never heard of the word “ijtihad” until your post.

The rapid spread of Islam to Asia, Europe, and North Africa in the 7th century was a shining example of tolerance and justice. In most of its occupied territories, the local administrative and social structures were left intact and the local population was for the most part not forced to convert to Islam, a practice seemed to be the opposite of what Taliban implemented in Afghanistan. Looking at Saudi, Iran, Pakistan, Afghanistan, and other conservative Islamic countries, I can’t help but wonder if some Muslims today are more closed-minded than their ancestors 1300 years ago.

http://www.historyguide.org/ancient/lecture18b.html

not only did Muslim scholars preserve the heritage of Greek science and philosophy, they added to it by writing commentaries and glosses, thus adding to what eventually became the western intellectual tradition. Throughout the Qur'an one can find a strong emphasis on the value of knowledge in the Islamic faith. The Qur'an encourages Muslims to learn and acquire knowledge, stemming from, but not limited to, the Muslim emphasis on knowing the unity of God. Because Muslims believe that Allah is all-knowing, they also believe that the human world's quest for knowledge leads to further knowing of Allah.
Looking at the prevailing trend of Islamic teachings today, I wonder how much of the tradition of quest for knowledge is actually being practiced. I got the impression from Sabla and elsewhere that anytime anyone brings up an inconsistency in the Qur’an or a scientific fact that may or may not contradict the Qur’an, he/she is viewed as anti-Islam. How can we acquire new knowledge if we are not even allowed to ask questions?

Originally posted by assikulee
"By the end of the tenth century, legal scholars felt that all major legal issues had been decided. They said that the "door of interpretation" (ijtihad) was closed and Muslims henceforth had to consult past decisions collected in the books of the various law schools (taqlid).
It was interesting to read that Islam went from an open system in the 7th century to a closed system by the end of the 10th century. What were the factors that contributed to the closing of ijtihad? Historical events? Social development? And who today have the authority to open the door of ijtihad? Religious leaders? Government officials?

[Arabian Princess]

Originally posted by Cetacea
[B] I got the impression from Sabla and elsewhere that anytime anyone brings up an inconsistency in the Qur’an or a scientific fact that may or may not contradict the Qur’an, he/she is viewed as anti-Islam. How can we acquire new knowledge if we are not even allowed to ask questions?

No said we shouldnt ask questions!! Infact as a muslim we have to beleive that Allah asked us to explore the earth and learn .. its an Islamic teaching.
there is a hadith by prophet mohammed that means:
who ever went through a road to acquire knowlege, Allah will easen for him a road to heaven

what we said (or am talking about myself .. am not responsible of others) is that no one should say that "the Quran got it wrong" or "who wrote the Quran didnt expereince other places" ;)
Quran to us is the ultimate truth, no fact in this earth should contradict with it, if there is a confusion then our duty is to search and explore the earth to clear whats the confusion on!




What were the factors that contributed to the closing of ijtihad? Historical events? Social development? And who today have the authority to open the door of ijtihad? Religious leaders? Government officials?
knowledgable people in religion is eligable to do Ijtihad as long as he bases his Ijtihad on reliable sources.

I dont know why the door of Ijtihad was closed, but I guess it might be because many people started bringing wrong history events and try to change islamic teachings in the name of Ijtihad.

[jack]

A_P
No said we shouldnt ask questions!! Infact as a muslim we have to beleive that Allah asked us to explore the earth and learn .. its an Islamic teaching.
there is a hadith by prophet mohammed that means:
[b]who ever went through a road to acquire knowlege, Allah will easen for him a road to heaven

what we said (or am talking about myself .. am not responsible of others) is that no one should say that "the Quran got it wrong" or "who wrote the Quran didnt expereince other places"
Quran to us is the ultimate truth, no fact in this earth should contradict with it, if there is a confusion then our duty is to search and explore the earth to clear whats the confusion on!
I know you are an educated and think you are an intelligent person.

Read what you have posted until you find the contradiction in your statement. If you can't see the contradiction ... well :rolleyes:

[Arabian Princess]

to me its not a contradiction, in fact its a complete harmony! ;)

[IceTea]

Originally posted by Cetacea
anyone brings up an inconsistency in the Qur’an or a scientific fact that may or may not contradict the Qur’an

Anyone who think that there is inconsistency in the Quran means ONLY he/she didn't understand the Quran properly.


PS: Alaykom Alsalam Warahmatu Allah Wabarakatuh assikulee welcome to the sabla :).

[jack]

Originally posted by Arabian Princess
to me its not a contradiction, in fact its a complete harmony! ;) Your statement is complete harmony with ... what?

Let me paraphrase what you said.

It is your duty to seek knowledge. If you find any knowlegde that conflicts with the Quran ... you must ignore that knowledge.

Where is the harmony?

[IceTea]

jack,

AP means with regard to the Quran that seeking knowledge is not for the purpose of proving the existance of a fact but seeking knowledge of how such fact works in order to understand it which will increase the person faith.

[amo_l_oman]

Originally posted by Arabian Princess
Quran to us is the ultimate truth, no fact in this earth should contradict with it, if there is a confusion then our duty is to search and explore the earth to clear whats the confusion on!


This is apparently a contradiction joker, only AP can clarify better what she meant.

[Arabian Princess]

Originally posted by jack

It is your duty to seek knowledge. If you find any knowlegde that conflicts with the Quran ... you must ignore that knowledge.

Where is the harmony?

My statment says:

its our duty to seek knowledge, if you find any "earthly knowledge" that contradicts with Quran, then its your duty to search more to know more about that issue and you would realise its in harmony in Quran! ;)

[sanwin25]

And if all your searching proved otherwise ? What is your recourse then ? Do you follow the result of your findings or .....

Jinns, embryos, etc, etc, the Quran has it completely wrong on tons of things.

Isn't it your duty to search for the truth ?

[Arabian Princess]

I am not a scientiest ..

I studied business and economics .. so I think my duty would be more of proving Islamic economics theories!

I cant prove myself if I have no knowledge in these sciences, its the duties of other muslim scintiest.

[sanwin25]

It was a general question, not specifically addressed to you.

What happens if a scientist find that a scientific fact is in contradiction with the Quran ?

Does he

(a) accept the scientific finding

or

(b) become an ostritch and hide his head in the ground, never facing up to facts ?

[IceTea]

It means the scientist is wrong.

[Cetacea]

Originally posted by IceTea
It means the scientist is wrong.
It baffles and saddens me to see the mentality like yours permeate in today’s Muslim world. Science, once a hallmark of Arab civilization, is now distorted, ignored or trampled upon. Islam, once a progressive force, has turned into a regressive one that hinders the development of science and technology.

http://www.astro.utoronto.ca/~swlee/ast210summer/7_medieval.pdf


After the initial turbulent expansion of Islam into the Middle East, Spain, North Africa and India, the Islamic civilizations settled into a period of significant learning, and astronomy, mathematics and medicine were the principal areas. One reason for the flourishing of intellectual activities in the Islamic world was the tolerance and encouragement of both secular and religious learning, created the necessary climate for the exchange of ideas. In Cordoba, Spain, as in Baghdad, both Muslims Jews and Christians alike were welcomed warmly, and for a short period of time, Arabic became the international language of science, as English has today. The introduction of paper from China in the mid-8th century also added an impetus to learning. Much of Greek knowledge was translated into Arabic by the people who lived in the Islamic world.
The British anthropologist, Robert Briffault wrote, in his book, Making of Humanity:

Discussion as to who was the originator of the experimental method. ... are part of the colossal misinterpretation of the origins of European civilization. The experimental method of Arabs was by Bacon's time widespread and eagerly cultivated throughout Europe.
…
Science is the most momentous contribution of Arab civilization to the modern world; …
Things have changed over the centuries, haven’t they?

[Arabian Princess]

(c) search more and more in that area ..

and the truth to us is that it will never contradict! ;)

[assikulee]

Assalaam alaikum,

Thanks everyone for the welcomes! I want to try to focus on the ijtihad idea, because I think it's the Islamic tradition of what we're talking about here: Islamic social change in a changing world. By Islamic I mean of course that it stays true to the Quran, and by change, I mean that it may be interpreted by humans for human ends. (Why else would God bless humans with a book of revealed wisdom, if not to affect the way we think??).

Cetacea wrote:
"It was interesting to read that Islam went from an open system in the 7th century to a closed system by the end of the 10th century. What were the factors that contributed to the closing of ijtihad? Historical events? Social development? And who today have the authority to open the door of ijtihad? Religious leaders? Government officials?"

What I remember from class was that after the early period of the Abbasid Caliphate, which was vigorous and truly united the whole Islamic world under one governmental system, its long slow decline occured at the same time as the scientific "golden age." When the slave armies from Khorasan conquered Baghdad, and the Abbasids became more titular than effective rulers, the governmental system started decaying, leading to further invasions and chaos. Then of course the Mongols showed up and illustrated quite clearly the ramifications of political disunity-- they are said to have killed 800,000 residents of Baghdad in one weekend.

I think the idea is that independent thinking became secondary to political, and cultural, unity, and it was in that atmosphere that the so-called "gates of ijtihad" were "closed."

Arabian Princess said:
"no one should say that "the Quran got it wrong" or "who wrote the Quran didnt expereince other places" "

Gracious moderator, I know a lot of people say that kind of thing. I think it shows a fundamental lack of understanding of the nature of revealed wisdom. Does a child understand its parents discussions? No, a child must be made to understand, it must be led to reason-- sometimes illogically, sometimes contradictorily, sometimes with games and riddles, in many ways. Thus would it have to be for God to speak to humans.

A divine text, in other words, could be both correct and contradictory, because its puropse isn't to answer all of our questions for us. Its purpose is to provide the guidance our souls need so that our minds may reach the right conclusions based on our hearts and our reason. For if we were not suppsoed to use those, why would God have provided them?

But I'm afraid that's just my opinion.

IceTea wrote:
"Alaykom Alsalam Warahmatu Allah Wabarakatuh assikulee welcome to the sabla"

Thank you kindly, and likewise with the blessings!

Sanwin25 wrote:
"What happens if a scientist find that a scientific fact is in contradiction with the Quran ? Does he (a) accept the scientific finding or (b) become an ostritch and hide his head in the ground, never facing up to facts ?"

This brings up an interesting point. All religions seem to have among their thinkers those who insist on the literal truth of every word of revealed scripture. Western history is just full of examples of the truth being supressed, and those scientists telling it being persecuted, by religious authorities. An example would be the Inquisition and its attempt to stop the Enlightenment, especially in the 1500s and early 1600s. Another example I see to this day at my University, are the Christians who object to the idea of evolution, because they believe that the Bible proves that the Earth was created in 6 days about 6000 years ago. People who believe this sometimes try to change school cirriculums to forbid teaching of evolution as fact, and insist that their creation story should be taught in schools, at least as an alternative. Sometimes they achieve political power to pursue social goals like this.

It might be worth remembering in these discussions that, at least in America, we see a lot of this, and so this is bound to color our points of view-- whatever they may be!! We have struggled with such questions for a long time ourselves.

IceTea wrote:
"It means the scientist is wrong."

It could mean that the scientist is talking to humans as a human, while God talks to humans from a different level. Why else would hadith science have grown alongside Quranic scholarship?

They could both be right while seeming to contradicting each other. It all depends.

Cetacea said:
"It baffles and saddens me to see the mentality like yours permeate in today’s Muslim world. Science, once a hallmark of Arab civilization, is now distorted, ignored or trampled upon. Islam, once a progressive force, has turned into a regressive one that hinders the development of science and technology."

Well, I don't know that that's true. Certainly, the ulama have much more prominent a public face than Islamic scientists do. But I think that, for example, Pakistan has quite forcefully laid to rest the idea that Islam is not part of the modern scientific world.

Nor are the laws of science inviolate in the United States. Recently, many respected scientists signed a public letter complaining that the current President has stifled scientific inquiry in a range of fields for apparently-ideological, and often religious, reasons.

So for both reasons, I don't think it's fair to say that this it's something specifically Islamic.

That said, there is certainly a drastic comparison to be made between the situation for the Islamic world now and in the 10th century or, for that matter, in the 16th and 17th when the Ottoman Turks united the traditional muslim lands and was a major global superpower (in part, by so readily adapting western military technology to their own unrivalled military practices). I prefer the cultural-borrowing model such as the Islamic influence on the Renaissance, to the gunpowder-empire thing, personally. Especially considering that plutonium is the modern gunpowder!!

One thing that fascinates me is that very little of that old Islamic scholarship has been translated into other languages or revisited and studied for what it might contain. Part of the reason is because westerners only see texts filled with discussions of God, and figure that they must therefore have little to no scientific value. This of course is as silly as it would be, for example, to try to remove the Christian influence from western philosophy-- whether one believes in God or not, his importance to western intellectual development is undeniable. One must assume it's a given and read it for its meanings in its context.

So maybe the question isn't as simple as it seems, is what I'm saying. I'll leave it at that for the moment, your turn!!

http://www.englishsabla.com/boy-i/Smilies/peace.gif
http://www.englishsabla.com/boy-i/Smilies/peace.gif

Assalaam alaikum,
--assikulee

PS: Oh, the name, it means "the Sicilian" in Arabic, presuming of course that I correctly formulated the nisba adjective. I hope I did, or I'll have to live with the mistake!! which is always the most painful way to learn, now isn't it? http://www.englishsabla.com/boy-i/Smilies/allteeth.gif
http://www.englishsabla.com/boy-i/Smilies/allteeth.gif

That is the part of my background I most directly identify with and, interestingly enough, also was how I became interested in Islam....

[um albanin]

Hello.. I am sorry to be late but I just noticed a reply to my posts today, As I wasnt around religion sabla for a while. I will assume that my points are old to be discussed But I thought I have to clarify things because I think you went more personally than you presumed I did. because in every point you compsred it to my personal life

First of all, I’d like to make it clear that I have no intention to convert. It’s not a thread about “I’ll convert to Islam if you make these changes” Sorry if I confused you.

dear , this what you wrote in your first post in this thread:


As a non-Muslim who have traveled in the Middle East and have many close Muslim friends, I’ve been asked over and over again “Why don’t you convert to Islam?” Although I agree with many points made in the Qur’an regarding ethics, I couldn’t reconcile some of the major issues. I would probably give Islam a second look if the following are changed:

no one said you were to convert because your attitude didnt show that you want to .

I wouldn’t be posting on Sabla if I were an expert. I thought this was a place we could ask questions and learn about Islam. If you think my understanding of Islam is incorrect, provide a logical argument. Attacking me personally only makes you look bad.

Indeed it is a place to ask questions in a good manner , not to tell us that you want to give our religion a secound chance. then telling us you even wouldnt go to more details about long baths..etc.. which ment that there r so many to be questioned but you wouldnt bother us with the minor staff.
I Didnt attack you personally by saying you r not an expert, 1 st because its true you are not (as u have mensioned by urself & 2nd I did say that my self am not an expert either.....!!!!!

This is the most absurd argument I’ve ever heard. It is bad enough that men write laws to suppress women, it is even worse to see women being so brainwashed that they accept the laws. According to you, men get to rule over women because they are strong enough to rape women? Oh boy! Which century do you live in?
You see , Men didnt write the quraanic Versis, allah did . & so If you think so then again I am saying its upto you. but I beleive & I know that these laws are not human made , so You dont presume things that you dont know , or according to what you said: you want to ask questions not to accuse.
INDEED man a stronger than women & that what my point is..& indeed force rules the world , how do you think US attacked iraq?? with books & deplomacy..?? & YES I live in this century because guess what RAPE IS MORE COMMON a MILLION TIMES NOW THAN EVER BEFORE & GUESS WHAT TOO,THE WESTERN WORLD IS FAR MORE SUPERIOR IN THEIR RECORDS.where do you live , & in which century?

You are a physician, right? Are you forgetful and emotional? Shall we assign you a female companion doctor so two of you could function as one male doctor? In a recent thread (Did you forget already?) you said

This is my favourate. GUess what I work in a western institute where several times I had nurses (cocasians) who would ask me to leave certain patients for the male doctors to see:lost: OUR hospital environment is underestimated by many non-paramedics because you would only understand it when you come to work with us... leave the movies aside!
& yes I find my husband( same profession) has a stronger memory than I , & I ve seen it around the departemen within the western community , I DO MY BEST TO THE OPTIMUM SATISFACTION ACCORDING TO MY CAPABILITIES.

On one hand you complained that people didn’t take you seriously, on the other hand, you think women are obviously forgetful. If you don’t respect yourself, why should others take you seriously? Is there any difference between your attitude and that of the hostess?

The air hostess attitude was towards my ethnic origin not towards my gender:lost: & THANKS VERY MUCH I DO RESPECT MY SELF VERY MUCH because I know what are my obligations & rights :duck:

In one thread you posted that you are surprised to see educated female that support polygemy. I guess you ment me .
but you also said that I Me)woudnt want to be involed in such marrige. would you like me to give you my husbands number so you call him & ask him what have I told him regarding this matter...DONT PRESUME THINGS, SAY WHAT YOU R SURE OF ONLY. thats what my religion taught me.

Just look at your post & see who did attack others personaly.sure its not me

[Cetacea]

Originally posted by um albanin
In one thread you posted that you are surprised to see educated female that support polygemy. I guess you ment me .
but you also said that I Me)woudnt want to be involed in such marrige. would you like me to give you my husbands number so you call him & ask him what have I told him regarding this matter...DONT PRESUME THINGS, SAY WHAT YOU R SURE OF ONLY. thats what my religion taught me.

ROFL. First of all, I was not talking about you. I don’t remember your participating in the polygamy thread. So my advice to you is “DONT PRESUME THINGS, SAY WHAT YOU R SURE OF ONLY. thats what my Mom taught me.” Second of all, thanks for sharing your family secret with us. I don’t need to call your husband, I take your word for it. Do let us know when your husband takes a second wife, so we can all congratulate you.

You are a bit late to the party. We’ve beaten the above issues to death and moved on to ijtihad. If you still want to talk about polygamy or women being more forgetful, please PM me.

[um albanin]

it was not in a polygemy thread at all. & yet I said I guess.. so if i am wrong you corect me.(like the open pms). I didnt say I was sure like you when u talk about our religion.

I didnt share any family secrets dear, tell me one!

Its a figure of speach in arabic when I said you can call my husband sweety, meaning to make you sure though I wouldnt mind.

&
You are a bit late to the party

I apologised to be late due to the reason mensioned dear , check my last post right in the begining..

& yet the party is not over since I had to reply to what you have accused especially that you sounded to involve personal aspects!

go ahead continue with ijtihaad

[fatak]

This could be revisited........

Cause I wanna eat BBQ pork ribs and have a beer occasionally........I just don't see why it's banned in Islam.......other than written in Quran.......

sayid fatak

[Pineapple Thief]

You could easily have BBQ lamb chops and Barbican! :D

[fatak]

well I tried the virgin Margaritas.......one time, and got sick as a dog.......

Sometimes you just need to get knackered and stand naked yelling at the moon.......

It's most likely a faulty Irish DNA gene pool thing........

I just can't understand.......for my few vices I will spend eternity in Hell.....

There are great teachings in Islam.....concerning love and compassion, but some of the haram things remind me of common sense in general but very extreme in other ways.......like most people at that time were out of control......mainly arabs.....

sayid fatak

[Arabian Princess]

concerning love and compassion, but some of the haram things remind me of common sense in general but very extreme in other ways.......like most people at that time were out of control......mainly arabs.....

so you are saying, that currently the west, where they are allowed to do all the haram things, they are all under control?

[MorphaKnight]

pork is too fattish.. I go for BBQ lamb chops any day... XD

[fatak]

so you are saying, that currently the west, where they are allowed to do all the haram things, they are all under control?

No, actually I was thinking at the times of pagan arab tribes, pre-Islam....there were extremes......so when Islam began to take hold....many things were Not allowed or made haram.

I believe at that time the Jews were allow to consume wine......so it wasn't haram......according to jews and christians......

Currently........of course most of the western lifestyle is haram.......according to most islamic customs......

About 10% of the population are totally out of control.......under any religious guidelines.......

sayid fatak

[Arabian Princess]

Fatak,

What I am trying to say, they were not made haram because ARABS were not undercontrol, they were made haram (from an Islamic prespective) because they are harmful to humans!

In fact, its an Islamic fact that when Islam came, it didnt forbid everything one go .. it took things gradually ..