As we all know, zionism is the movement to establish and maintain a Jewish homeland in Israel.

I know muslims desperatetly hate this movement but I cannot stop myself from feeling compassion towards the Jews. They suffered terribly throughout history, they've never had a homeland of their own... is it so surprising that they are fighting for the land that was promised to them?

How can you not feel for so many suffering lost souls? How can you hate them... ? Us muslims have large portions of two of the biggest continents, they don't even have a city! :sorry:

And who promised them the land?

Allah, in the Quran.

Did you not know that ?

Originally posted by sanwin25
Allah, in the Quran.

Did you not know that ?

Prove it.

Originally posted by Enigma
they don't even have a city! :sorry:

Palastine wasn't a land without people for people without land (the Jewish).

Originally posted by IceTea
Prove it.

"And thereafter We [Allah] said to the Children of Israel: 'Dwell securely in the Promised Land. And when the last warning will come to pass, we will gather you together in a mingled crowd.'" [Qur'an 17:104]

The same verse in arabic:

æÞáäÇ ãä ÈÚÏå áÈäí ÇÓÑÇÆíá ÇÓßäæÇ ÇáÇÑÖ ÝÇÐÇ ÌÇÁ æÚÏ ÇáÇÎÑÉ ÌÆäÇ Èßã áÝíÝÇ

Many jewish people do state that they don't need a land to practice their religion. They do oppose the existence of "israel" and they do feel that "israel" is a threat to their religion.

Enigma, if we have large portions of two continents, then christians for example have continents by it self.

It's not like we do hate their existence in this life. It's just sick to think of it this way. Most muslims and arabs in general hate the existence of "israel" rather than hate jews because they are jews.

Originally posted by MoonChild
"And thereafter We [Allah] said to the Children of Israel: 'Dwell securely in the Promised Land. And when the last warning will come to pass, we will gather you together in a mingled crowd.'" [Qur'an 17:104]

The meaning of the arabic verse is as below:

"And We said to the Israelites after him: Dwell in the land: and when the promise of the next life shall come to pass, we will bring you both together in judgment."

And him refers to Firon, so as you can see Allah told them to dwell in the land as a human being to live in this earth.

A truly compassionate person will of course feel for the blight of the Jews......

The one thing I can't understand.......is that the major religions......Judaism, Christianity and Islam all come from the same family of Abraham.......and yet they are the major source of all the wars.......and suffering thruout history in that area.

I think a logical person these days would have to reject these religions as counter to peace and compassion.

The world will always be full of conflict and war while these groups use their religion to judge the others as inferiors.........

All the hatred towards Jews or muslims or any other group is from ignorance.......plan and simple.....

Once you get to know these people and their families you find they are 98% like you and want the same things in life.

What a waste of human potential.......!!!!

fatak

Are all these wrong ?

017.104
Waqulna min baAAdihi libanee isra-eela oskunoo al-arda fa-itha jaa waAAdu al-akhirati ji/na bikum lafeefan
YUSUFALI: And We said thereafter to the Children of Israel, "Dwell securely in the land (of promise)": but when the second of the warnings came to pass, We gathered you together in a mingled crowd.
PICKTHAL: And We said unto the Children of Israel after him: Dwell in the land; but when the promise of the Hereafter cometh to pass We shall bring you as a crowd gathered out of various nations.
SHAKIR: And We said to the Israelites after him: Dwell in the land: and when the promise of the next life shall come to pass, we will bring you both together in judgment.
KHALIFA: And we said to the Children of Israel afterwards, "Go live into this land. When the final prophecy comes to pass, we will summon you all in one group

Not everyone gets their own country. Luckily we "Neo-Pagans" are happy to live anywhere, and don't need any churches or anything for intolerant countires to bust our balls over.

I would like to recommend the incomparable Niggy for some sort of bravery award. Unbelievable.

Simple question,

Enigma, don’t you know that the Children of Israel are known to kill their prophets?

Who killed Jesus (Issa Alihi Alsalam?)


They were promised the land then they were punished when Mouse’s was with them and they were lost in the desert for 40 years because of the sins they’ve made.

It’s fair to say that not the Jews are the same, however they should understand that they are being punished for all the sins they did and continuing to do. There are Jews out there who protest against Israel and ask them to leave Palestine as it does not belong to them and that they should accept the path that their lord has given them.

Originally posted by EviliO


Enigma, if we have large portions of two continents, then christians for example have continents by it self.

I know! And they kicked them out :os Now you see why I feel so bad for the Jews?

It's not like we do hate their existence in this life. It's just sick to think of it this way. Most muslims and arabs in general hate the existence of "israel" rather than hate jews because they are jews.

Hmm... I'd like to believe that's true but fact is, its not. Muslims just hate JEWS in general. Sure the founding reason for that is Israel but even a Jew who lives in Muscat will get the cold shoulder.

Originally posted by IceTea
The meaning of the arabic verse is as below:

"And We said to the Israelites after him: Dwell in the land: and when the promise of the next life shall come to pass, we will bring you both together in judgment."

And him refers to Firon, so as you can see Allah told them to dwell in the land as a human being to live in this earth.

The translations I've read said that it meant that they would have their land just before Judgement Day..

Originally posted by Elegant



They were promised the land then they were punished when Mouse’s was with them and they were lost in the desert for 40 years because of the sins they’ve made.

If the Quran states that the land was 'promised' to them, then where is the verse that says it is no longer ?

You know, after looking up the verse I saw it in many Zionism sites. The Jews hold it as proof that the land is theirs.

It’s fair to say that not the Jews are the same, however they should understand that they are being punished for all the sins they did and continuing to do. There are Jews out there who protest against Israel and ask them to leave Palestine as it does not belong to them and that they should accept the path that their lord has given them.

What sins are they doing now?

And why should they be punished for something they didn't do? Are you saying that they are forever cursed?

Why would Allah SWT punish someone for something he hasn't done?

Muslims are just full of sins nowdays, how are they being punished?

Originally posted by Enigma
The translations I've read said that it meant that they would have their land just before Judgement Day..

Which land and which translation you are talking about?

The Jewish are known to be the most human beings love this life and they wish to live forever as mentioned in the Quran.


æóáóÊóÌöÏóäøóåõãú ÃóÍúÑóÕó ÇáäøóÇÓö Úóáóì ÍóíóÇÉò æóãöäó ÇáøóÐöíäó ÃóÔúÑóßõæÇ íóæóÏøõ ÃóÍóÏõåõãú áóæú íõÚóãøóÑõ ÃóáúÝó ÓóäóÉò æóãóÇ åõæó ÈöãõÒóÍúÒöÍöåö ãöäó ÇáúÚóÐóÇÈö Ãóäú íõÚóãøóÑó æóÇááøóåõ ÈóÕöíÑñ ÈöãóÇ íóÚúãóáõæäó


Thou wilt indeed find them, of all people, most greedy of life,-even more than the idolaters: Each one of them wishes He could be given a life of a thousand years: But the grant of such life will not save him from (due) punishment. For God see s well all that they do.

Originally posted by IceTea
Which land and which translation you are talking about?

The Jewish are known to be the most human beings love this life and they wish to live forever as mentioned in the Quran.

You talk as if you met every single Jew. Have you met Monotheism Icey? He's a Jew and he's very religious!

Originally posted by Enigma
If the Quran states that the land was 'promised' to them, then where is the verse that says it is no longer ?



There is no verse saying promise, the verse saying the land and this earth for all humans to live in, agree or not? Read the arabic verse not the translation of the meaning.

Originally posted by IceTea
There is no verse saying promise, the verse saying the land and this earth for all humans to live in, agree or not? Read the arabic verse not the translation of the meaning.

OK, but clearly it is your God's will that the Jews create and live in Israel ?

Originally posted by Enigma



What sins are they doing now?



Are you for real?

Do you watch the news every day or not? Need i say more????

Regarding your comment that Muslims are all full of sins now a days.. Guess what.. We are also being punished, look at Palestine, Iraq, Afghanistan, shishan, Nigeria and the list goes on. It’s not that we’re perfect.. And it will soon come down to us if we don’t behave!

Originally posted by Elegant
Are you for real?

Do you watch the news every day or not? Need i say more????


Don't apply actions of a PORTION of ISRAELI's to the whole world full of Jews ... I've known a lot of jews both growing up and now work with several who are doctors and nurses- they are all good people ... just like "most muslims" and "most Christians" and on and on and on ... I'm sure you are a fabulous person who wouldn't dream of harming anyone, why should I judge you because you share heritage and religion with those who make the news every day?

Originally posted by Elegant
Are you for real?

Do you watch the news every day or not? Need i say more????


And the muslims are doing the same thing! What makes us any better?

I guess we're both being punished for the same crimes. :)

Moon Child, you might have missed my pervious post which I mentioned the below in.

Originally posted by Elegant
It’s fair to say that not the Jews are the same,

Engima, what the Palestinians are doing is defending their right’s, there country. I’m sure you’d do the same thing to any person who would want to jump into Oman and occupy it wouldn’t you?

You want to know more about the Palestinian history and what right do the Jews have in it, I would recommend that you get a full set of tapes by Dr. Alswaidan, it’s a set of 12 tapes which tells you the history of Palestine from B.C until this moment, and who has more right to be there..

Tareekh Al-Quds wa Falasteen, By Dr. Sweedan
ÊÇÑíÎ ÇáÞÏÓ æÝáÓØíä

You talk as if you met every single Jew. Have you met Monotheism Icey? He's a Jew and he's very religious!

thanks! :)

I'd be glad to meet you, IceTea!

What sins are they doing now?...Do you watch the news every day or not? Need i say more????

yes, you need say more

If there are sins being done now--may G-d save us--it's the fact that Jews are not standing up for the Jews' G-d-given Land, and are signing worthless peace agreements for empty political motives and thereby compromising security of Jewish lives, may G-d protect them.

Jews are not known for brutality and mass murder of innocents--neither in past generations, nor now.

But certain other people are.

The only thing that Israel has been doing is defending itself by attacking avowed terrorists, just as America has been doing in Afghanistan.

Jewish soldiers do not target civilians, or pregnant women and children.

But certain other people do.

what the Palestinians are doing is defending their right’s, there country.

:rolleyes:

yeah, by killing babies and women and children, maiming and crippling and dismembering in the most cowardly way--may G-d avenge them--all in order to strike terror

:fire:

it won't work

because G-d gave the Holy Land to the Jewish people in the Bible, and nothing anyone says can change that

we lived there--before Christianity, and certainly before Islam; we built our temple there, and have the G-d-given right to continue to live there

with Divine protection we outlived the Egyptians, the Greeks, the Romans, and everyone else

G-d promised in the Torah that the Jewish people would exist forever, so there's no point trying to wipe us out


if other people want to live on the land, they are most welcome

as long as they don't threaten our security

if they do, they are most UNwelcome

The Bible gives a very detailed record of the entire creation, followed by the flood of Noah and the birth of Abraham, who was the first to recognize G-d, and the father of the Jewish nation.

Throughout the Bible we find G-d's promises to give the Land of Israel to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and their descendants for all future generations.

The following is a brief selection of Biblical sources that demonstrate the Jewish ownership of the Land of Israel, both through divine promise and acquisition.

G-d appeared to Abram and said, "To your offspring I will give this land. "Genesis 12, 7

G-d said to Abram… "Raise now your eyes and look out from where you are: northward, southward, eastward and westward. For all the land that you see, to you will I give it, and to your descendants forever." Genesis 13, 14-15 G-d said to Abram…"Arise, walk about the land through its length and breadth! For to you will I give it." Genesis 13, 17

Abraham purchases Cave of Machpela in Hebron. Genesis 15, 7. 15, 18-21. 17, 8. 23, 16-18.

G-d promises that Isaac shall inherit Abraham. Genesis 17, 19. 21, 12

Abraham gives all his possessions to Isaac. Genesis 25, 5.

Abraham was buried in the Cave of Machpela. Genesis 25, 10.

G-d promises Isaac that He will fulfill His promise of the land to Abraham. Genesis 26, 3-4.

Isaac hands down the promise of the land to Jacob. Genesis 28, 4.

G-d promises the Land of Israel to Jacob. Genesis 28, 13

Jacob purchases land in Shechem. Genesis 33, 19

Genesis 35, 12 (G-d promises to give Jacob and his offspring the Land of Israel). Genesis 48, 21-22 (Jacob gives Joseph Shechem). Genesis 49, 30. 50, 13. 50, 24 (Joseph tells his brothers G-d will remember His promise to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob).

G-d tells Moses to tell the Jews that He will bring them to the land promised to Abraham Isaac and Jacob. Exodus 6, 8

Moses promises redemption and the Jewish inheritance of Israel. Deuteronomy 30, 3-5


Thus, the Bible clearly declares that the land belongs to the Jewish people.

Jews are not known for brutality and mass murder of innocents--neither in past generations, nor now.

You must be kidding me!

Have you ever heared of Dr. Baruch Goldstein?
Have you ever heared of Ehud yatom?

Thats to name a few!

Enigma, I am surprised of you thread, especially knowing all the killings they have done to the muslims for years. I guess you forgot that God has warned us to be careful of the Jews and that they are our biggest ennemy:


"Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are Christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant.
{Quran 5:82}

The Jewish are 'people of the book'; ahil alkitab. They are considered the closest people to our faith after Christians.

At least eighty five percent of our practices and beliefs are similar.

---------------

We are encouraged to have a good relationship with the people of the book; Christian's and Jews:

And dispute ye not with the People of the Book, except with means better (than mere disputation), unless it be with those of them who inflict wrong (and injury): but say, 'We believe in the revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you; Our Allah and your Allah is one; and it is to Him we bow. ( The Spider: 46)

We are allowed to eat their meat, and marry into their families, unlike any other people:

Today all good things have been made lawful for you. And the food of those given the Book is also lawful for you and your food is lawful for them. So are chaste women from among the believers and chaste women of those given the Book before you, once you have given them their dowries in marriage, not in fornication or taking them as lovers. But as for anyone who disbelieve, his actions will come to nothing and in the hereafter he will be among the losers. (Surat al-Mai'da: 5)

We should respect their places of worship and protect these holy places:

…if God had not driven some people back by means of others, monasteries, churches, synagogues and mosques, where God's name is mentioned much, would have been pulled down and destroyed. God will certainly help those who help Him - God is All-Strong, Almighty. (Surat al-Hajj: 40 )

The Quran commands muslims not to harbor any enmity towards any people:

"If any of the idolaters ask you for protection, give them protection until they have heard the words of God. Then convey them to a place where they are safe." (Surat at-Tawba: 6)

The Quran also encourages us to unite with the people of the book in the face of all anti-religious ideologies:

O People of the Book! Let us rally to a common formula to be binding on both us and you: That we worship none but God; that we associate no partners with Him; that we erect not, from among ourselves, Lords and patrons other than God. (Surat Al 'Imran, 64)

Seems like the Quran is contradicting itself - very confusing to outsiders like me ... can you explain how it can tell you all to get along etc as demonstrated by Enigma, and at the same time say the dreadful things about Jews (don't have the quotes handy but have read them) ....

Originally posted by mimosa
Not everyone gets their own country. Luckily we "Neo-Pagans" are happy to live anywhere, and don't need any churches or anything for intolerant countires to bust our balls over.

Finally I figure out why I like you so much.

Originally posted by monotheism

Jewish soldiers do not target civilians, or pregnant women and children.

But certain other people do.




You must be very ignorant to say that! Ever heard of the massacres of Saabra and Shateela? Or were you still a baby in 1982?? I’m specifically mentioning this because it’s very famous, and the entire world knows about it. It’s still happening in Palestine but as it’s become part of the daily news no one is bothered.

When they opened up the smutches of pregnant women with knifes.. oh they must have been defending them selves agents those terrorist..


I suggest you go into history before you come blabbering out your lunges on this forum.

Originally posted by MoonChild
Seems like the Quran is contradicting itself - very confusing to outsiders like me ... can you explain how it can tell you all to get along etc as demonstrated by Enigma, and at the same time say the dreadful things about Jews (don't have the quotes handy but have read them) ....
There are plenty of contradictions in the Qur’an. For every ayah that talks about compassion toward Jews or other non-Muslims, I can find at least two or maybe even three ayahs talking about how evil they are. If anyone doubts my words, we can have a Qur’an quoting contest. ;)

Originally posted by Cetacea
There are plenty of contradictions in the Qur’an.

I don't know why you keep on saying "contradictions" and you don't know even arabic? :rolleyes:

Cetacea, quran wasn't received in one full book at once.
Am sure you do know that.

Point of detail, Elegant:

That Israeli military commanders may well have been aware of what was going on at Sabra and Shatila is a disgrace. But the murders and horrible acts you describe were carried out by another Lebanese militia. You can't make the racist comment that "Jews" are baby-killers just because General Sharon was content for Arabs to massacre each other.

Sabra and Shatila is a matter of historical shame. But you undermine your argument when you compare apples and oranges.

I have become dumb reading all the posts and contradiction.

Better be a good human rather then a pious.
:scary: :bang: :scratch:


I don't hate jews but hate the Israeli acts in Palestine.

ÝóÅöäøóåóÇ áóÇ ÊóÚúãóì ÇáúÃóÈúÕóÇÑõ æóáóßöä ÊóÚúãóì ÇáúÞõáõæÈõ ÇáøóÊöí Ýöí ÇáÕøõÏõæÑö .

Indeed, it is not the eyes of the body that go blind but it is the eyes of the hearts in the breasts and those of the mind.


It is funny when someone comes and tells us he or she feels sorry for a murderer. How funnier can it get when someone tells us he/she feels sorry for israelies (or jews as he/she wishes to say)?!
When you tell us that you feel sorry because they dont have a homeland (?!), but then shouldnt you feel sorry for those 1 million Palestinians who were kicked out of thier homes and countries to live in camps ?!
Spend a little time to read how those terrorists entered Palestine - with the aid of the british - and how they killed the children, women, old men ..etc without distinguishing between them !
Yes I will ask you the question again and i would like an answer from you;
DONT you feel SORRY and SAD for those who were KICKED out of THIER HOMES and LANDS to LIVE IN CAMPS ?
And from whom ?! From people who came from europe, america and russia ! i.e. they came from places they lived in to kick other people out so they can make a country for themselvs !

Then we come into another issue. Which is as important !

The jews believe that Allah is a "poor God" !!! (Astaghfiru Allah)

æóÞóÇáóÊö ÇáúíóåõæÏõ íóÏõ Çááøåö ãóÛúáõæáóÉñ ÛõáøóÊú ÃóíúÏöíåöãú æóáõÚöäõæÇú ÈöãóÇ ÞóÇáõæÇú Èóáú íóÏóÇåõ ãóÈúÓõæØóÊóÇäö íõäÝöÞõ ßóíúÝó íóÔóÇÁ
Verse 64
64- The Jews insolently say: «Allah keeps His hands tightly shut; He is close - fisted». Close-fisted be their hands and cursed they are for their evil thoughts expressed in words, but He is open-handed; He yields abundantly as He will and how He will.

Allah has described us what jews are really like in the Quran. If you are a muslim then you know that this books says the truth till judgment day !
Jews havent changed since they started killing Prophets ! They continue to kill souls with no right ! They continue to spread wars in this earth.
áóÞóÏú ÃóÎóÐúäóÇ ãöíËóÇÞó Èóäöí ÅöÓúÑóÇÆöíáó æóÃóÑúÓóáúäóÇ Åöáóíúåöãú ÑõÓõáÇð ßõáøóãóÇ ÌóÇÁåõãú ÑóÓõæáñ ÈöãóÇ áÇó Êóåúæóì ÃóäúÝõÓõåõãú ÝóÑöíÞðÇ ßóÐøóÈõæÇú æóÝóÑöíÞðÇ íóÞúÊõáõæäó
70- For once We entered into a covenant with Bani Isra‘il and We sent to them Messengers. Yet as often as a Messenger was sent to them with divine principles not to their taste, some they renounced and accused of assuming false character and others they killed or conspired for their death .

æóÃóáúÞóíúäóÇ Èóíúäóåõãõ ÇáúÚóÏóÇæóÉó æóÇáúÈóÛúÖóÇÁ Åöáóì íóæúãö ÇáúÞöíóÇãóÉö ßõáøóãóÇ ÃóæúÞóÏõæÇú äóÇÑðÇ áøöáúÍóÑúÈö ÃóØúÝóÃóåóÇ Çááøåõ æóíóÓúÚóæúäó Ýöí ÇáÃóÑúÖö ÝóÓóÇÏðÇ æóÇááøåõ áÇó íõÍöÈøõ ÇáúãõÝúÓöÏöíäó
As often as they inflame passion for kindling a war against you Muhammad, Allah extinguishes their reason and their alacrity. They strive to spread mischief and create discord on earth, and Allah detests those characterized with prepensed malice.

I leave you with a small portion of an article by David Duke, National President , European-American Unity and Rights Organization (EURO)


In their effort to wrest control of Palestine from British control, the Zionists waged a campaign of relentless terror, including the bombing of the King David Hotel, which killed 93 people. They ruthlessly murdered British officials and soldiers. The Zionists assassinated anyone in their way, including the world-respected U.N. mediator, Count Folke Bernadotte, who dared to tell the world of the Zionist terror and murder campaign. A favorite tactic of the Irgun and Stern terrorist gangs was to kidnap British soldiers and slowly torture them to death. Israel was also the first nation to employ the modern terrorist technique of the letter bomb; and over the years sent out hundreds of them, killing dozens of their enemies and many bystanders all over the world. The current terrorism of mailing anthrax infected letters is simply a logical stepchild of the letter bomb.

.....

The Palestinians, of course, have been the greatest victims of this half a century of Israeli terror. In fact, Israel carved its state out of Palestine through a deliberate policy of mass terror against the Palestinians. It was the method by which they drove 800,000 of them from their homes, businesses and farms(9). . In his book The Revolt(10), former Prime Minister, Menachem Begin, boasts about his role in the massacre of the 254 Palestinians at Deir Yassin. (Most of the victims were elderly men, women and children who remained in the Israeli-occupied village) In his book, Begin points out that Deir Yassin and other massacres caused panic among the residents, causing them to flee in terror from their homes. This intentional mass terror enabled the Zionists to take control of Palestine. And, it should be noted that the refugees are still not permitted to return home after more than half a century !


(And they will not be permited to enter until those terrorists go out of the land they stole. Keep in mind they are now approximately 5 million out side thier homelands, living in camps !)

David Duke...aka...Grand Wizard of the Ku Klux Klan. Congratulations. You have quoted a Grand Wizard that said that all persons that are not Aryan are sub-human and unworthy of life. That they will never go to heaven because they are nothing more then "monkeys". In case you weren't sure. The Ku Klux Klan hated Middle Easterners as well.

Because you are not Christian....you are just as doomed.

"We Aryans are those of European descent who are racially conscious and who have committed our lives to our people's survival and evolutionary advancement. We shall do our duty. We shall not surrender our freedom and our very existence to Jewish or any other power. We shall preserve our heritage and our hard-won rights and freedoms. We shall guide our people up the evolutionary stairway to the stars."

Who do you think is any other power?

"I want to leave no one with the impression that the Klan is a hopeless cause, or that I think it is essentially a negative force in America. The Klan is growing and improving all the time. Men like Louis Beam, Don Black, Chuck Bushong and many others are some of the very finest men America possesses. Additionally, I will never publicly denigrate the Ku Klux Klan, or its legitimate leaders. The last eight years in which I had various leadership roles in the Klan were the most fulfilling and exciting of my life. I want to wish Don Black and all Klanspeople the best of luck, and thank them for all their support in this sacred cause."

__ Letter announcing Duke's resignation from the Klan which accompanied the first issue of NAAWP News (National Association for the Advancement of White People),
August 1980.
"Our clear goal must be the advancement of the white race and separation of the white and black races. This goal must include freeing of the American media and government from subservient Jewish interests."

__ "Klan Code of Conduct," Duke Speaks Out, a column in the Crusader (newspaper of the Knights of the KKK, then led by David Duke), November 1978

I can understand why you would quote him. He hates Jews as much as you do.

As I expected !
You will divert the argument to the person of Duke and not about the topic it self !
Him being from the lans does not mean he did not say the truth about the jews !
Einstien stated his theory, does this mean it was a lie because he is a jew ?!
So sorry, your reply does not fit in this subject. Want to talk about klans go and open a new topic.

Look mimosa the fact that the Lebanese militias were doing it under a cover of Israeli’s troops and the support they got from Sharon to commit those disgusting acts does not mean they are any better.

I’ve mentioned this before and actually this is my third time just in this thread, I’m not racist towards Jews neither as a nation nor as a religion. Conversely you should not expect me to sit back and watch what’s happening in Palestine and say that the Israeli’s have the right to defend them selves against terrorist little kids.

yeah right, everyone has a right to defend themselves--except Jews :rolleyes:

what was that you said about your not hating Jews per se?

_________________________
As for sabra/shatilla--the Jews merely allowed one group of arabs to finish off the terrorist cells there. If those Arabs killed civilians while they were at it, it's they who were to blame:

The Lebanese Christian Phalangist militia was responsible for the massacres that occurred at the two Beirut-area refugee camps on September 16_17, 1982. Israeli troops allowed the Phalangists to enter Sabra and Shatila to root out terrorist cells believed located there. It had been estimated that there may have been up to 200 armed men in the camps working out of the countless bunkers built by the PLO over the years, and stocked with generous reserves of ammunition.

When Israeli soldiers ordered the Phalangists out, they found hundreds dead (estimates range from 460 according to the Lebanese police, to 700-800 calculated by Israeli intelligence). The dead, according to the Lebanese account, included 35 women and children. The rest were men: Palestinians, Lebanese, Pakistanis, Iranians, Syrians and Algerians. The killings came on top of an estimated 95,000 deaths that had occurred during the civil war in Lebanon from 1975-1982.

The killings were perpetrated to avenge the murders of Lebanese President Bashir Gemayel and 25 of his followers, killed in a bomb attack earlier that week.

Ironically, while 300,000 Israelis demonstrated in Israel to protest the killings, little or no reaction occurred in the Arab world. Outside the Middle East, a major international outcry against Israel erupted over the massacres. The Phalangists, who perpetrated the crime, were spared the brunt of the condemnations for it.

By contrast, few voices were raised in May 1985, when Muslim militiamen attacked the Shatila and Burj-el Barajneh Palestinian refugee camps. According to UN officials, 635 were killed and 2,500 wounded. During a two-year battle between the Syrian-backed Shiite Amal militia and the PLO, more than 2,000, including many civilians, were reportedly killed. No outcry was directed at the PLO or the Syrians and their allies over the slaughter. International reaction was also muted in October 1990 when Syrian forces overran Christian-controlled areas of Lebanon. In the eight-hour clash, 700 Christians were killed-the worst single battle of Lebanon's Civil War.




so much for that myth

monotheism,
yeah right, everyone has a right to defend themselves--except Jews

with all due respect, I think that statment is true for arabs not Jews.

lets forget what happened in the past, what about whats happening now in Palastine?!! What about what is happening in Rafah?! do you think its right what the Israel militry doing now, bombing houses and all coz they are looking for certain "terroriest" (who are by the way being called terrioriest coz they want thier land back?!)

Sorry, but I think the excuse of "defneding themselves" is lame! and doesnt represent the truth at all!

Originally posted by Enigma

How can you not feel for so many suffering lost souls? How can you hate them... ? Us muslims have large portions of two of the biggest continents, they don't even have a city! :sorry:

Well I am sorry, but even though I feel extremely sorry for the Africans who have suffered humiliation, slavery, disease and poverty throughtout the centuries; they have no right to come over to Oman to kick the real Arab Omanis, take over Oman's wealth and say that they did this because (e.g.) their religious doctrine says that Oman rightfully belongs to them.

:duh:

Leaving all religious arguments aside, both Muslims and Jews, that say that "My God said this and that".

By your above statement you are saying that a European, American, Chinese, African, Hawaiian Jew has every right to kick the original people from their own land, on the basis that they are Jews.

That land that we now call Palestine/Israel belongs to it's own people. The Arabs that inhabitated in what we now call Palestine&Israel. That land is surrounded by Arab land. It is Arab land. That land does not belong to ANY Muslim nor does it belong to ANY Jew. It belongs to the Arabs that originally live there. Whether that Arab may be Jewish, Christian or Muslim.

Those are my personal views.

Us muslims have large portions of two of the biggest continents

There are 1.2 Billion Muslims. There are 14 million Jews. There are 6 billion people worldwide. Jews make up a very small percentage. http://www.faqs.org/faqs/judaism/FAQ/02-Who-We-Are/section-23.html

Currently this is the Jewish distribution:~

Africa:~ 0.23 million Asia:~ 4 million Latin America:~ 1 Million. North America:~ 6 Million. Europe/Russia:~ 2.53 Million.

I got this from Don K's signature from another forum:~

David Ben Gurion (the first Israeli Prime Minister): "If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?"

Originally posted by sophis^catrina

Leaving all religious arguments aside, both Muslims and Jews, that say that "My God said this and that".

By your above statement you are saying that a European, American, Chinese, African, Hawaiian Jew has every right to kick the original people from their own land, on the basis that they are Jews.

That land that we now call Palestine/Israel belongs to it's own people. The Arabs that inhabitated in what we now call Palestine&Israel. That land is surrounded by Arab land. It is Arab land. That land does not belong to ANY Muslim nor does it belong to ANY Jew. It belongs to the Arabs that originally live there. Whether that Arab may be Jewish, Christian or Muslim.

Those are my personal views.

Wow ... I think I'm in Love ... :love: ... said with simple logic and no bigotry or racism.

At the end of the day ... we should 'feel' for alot of people on the planet ... Native Americans in North America who have been basically been wiped out or the Aborgines in Australia ...

And we are talking recent history .... not the many thousand year biblical history for justification ...

Do we feel sorry for Jews? Especially because of the Holocaust was such a terrible event of the last century?

Sure! Of Course!

But that was Europe's problem - a German mistake, and while all of humanity is responsible for humanities mistakes why did Palestinians have to be stripped of soo much land ownership, without any balanced compensation?

2 wrongs do not make a right.

At the end of the day ... Jews, Israelis, whoever and whatever their labels are ... are simple human beings who occupy the planet with the REST of us simple human beings - we need to all get along and right any wrongs made by forefathers as much as possible.

And NO one deserves to suffer ... no matter which side of the fence you are sitting at. (I hate fences).

So where is your 'feeling' for the nationless & improvished Palestinians?

:scratch:

Obviously Sophie misinterpreted my post just like the rest of the extremists on board!

FYI, my reason for starting this thread was in response to all the hatred most Arab Muslim's harbour for the Jews, they who don't take the time to THINK about where the opposing side is coming from. 'Know your enemy' we are taught.

By your above statement you are saying that a European, American, Chinese, African, Hawaiian Jew has every right to kick the original people from their own land, on the basis that they are Jews.

Feel free to make false relative comments to my post. If you missunderstand something its not by fault of my post.

Nowhere in my post did I say that the Jewish had any RIGHT to be in Israel.

About the land being 'Arab land' care to go back in history and think about how they got it? Didn't we have Jewish around the Madinah whom Prophet Mohammed kicked out (he did it for valid reasons true, but point is he did it)? :scratch: Not that I'm trying to be Anti-Islam but the whole occupying land thing is not as simple as original people and strangers.

There are 1.2 Billion Muslims. There are 14 million Jews

My point, which you missed, was that (regardless of numbers) they DON'T HAVE A LAND which is exclusively theirs. !

I am a compassionate humanitarian, I feel for whoever suffers be they African, Somali, Arab or Jewish. Just because I choose to take an understanding side as a muslim does not make me pro Jewish/Israeli or pro any 'land-takers'! And if you see it that way, then I pity you (that comment isn't just for you Sophie) for not being able to see outside of your own narrow world.

Originally posted by Arabian Princess
monotheism,


with all due respect, I think that statment is true for arabs not Jews.

lets forget what happened in the past, what about whats happening now in Palastine?!! What about what is happening in Rafah?! do you think its right what the Israel militry doing now, bombing houses and all coz they are looking for certain "terroriest" (who are by the way being called terrioriest coz they want thier land back?!)

Sorry, but I think the excuse of "defneding themselves" is lame! and doesnt represent the truth at all!

I agree with Arabian Princess.

To Gitmoist:

My pointing out the background of David Duke is valid. The background of the speaker is important to see the background of the statement.

If someone said, "Israel has always been right" and is name is Ariel Sharon, you would dismiss it. But if it was Osama Bin Laden, it carries a different weight.

Duke does not help, he hinders. A better speaker should be found then the Grand Wizard.

Over all:

The land belongs to the Palestinians, no more then it does the Israelies. The land belongs to the Israelies no more then it does to the Palestinians.

It's like if I sold land to someone, they built a huge beautiful estate home, and I start harassing him to get off MY land, because I now feel he should have paid more for it.

The start began long before Balfour with legal land purchases. The premise and start of Israel was on the back of Israeli aggression and terrorism. That is fact.

Originally posted by Enigma

My point, which you missed, was that (regardless of numbers) they DON'T HAVE A LAND which is exclusively theirs. !


Funny ... the last I checked ... it is the Palestinians without a state of their own ... not the Israelis ...

Where is the 'compassion' there?

Originally posted by Pretender
Funny ... the last I checked ... it is the Palestinians without a state of their own ... not the Israelis ...

Where is the 'compassion' there?

Feeling compassion for one set of people does not, contrary to current popular belief, eliminate compassion for another set. ;)

Originally posted by Enigma
Feeling compassion for one set of people does not, contrary to current popular belief, eliminate compassion for another set. ;)

You'll have to wait another 100 years ... I've discussed this many a times with my Israeli friends ...

Anybody born before the 80's needs to die out ... and still ... whole populations need to be educated about a wider world and human interaction with it ... the current schooling systems in large chunks of this part of the world don't allow for that.

You'll be trying to be preaching to ones that will be impossible to change ... and a smaller minority who already feel that way.

:scratch:

Originally posted by Pretender

You'll be trying to be preaching to ones that will be impossible to change ... and a smaller minority who already feel that way.



I already am Pretender.

Originally posted by Enigma
I already am Pretender. :exp:

The result will be similar to throwing a rock at a tank ...

Good luck.

:duck:

Originally posted by Pretender
You'll have to wait another 100 years ... I've discussed this many a times with my Israeli friends ...

Anybody born before the 80's needs to die out ... and still ... whole populations need to be educated about a wider world and human interaction with it ... the current schooling systems in large chunks of this part of the world don't allow for that.

You'll be trying to be preaching to ones that will be impossible to change ... and a smaller minority who already feel that way.

:scratch:

*scritches head* No school board? No comprehensive ability for the government to check teaching curriculum? No parents involved in the education of their children? Why only prior to the 80's? I was born well before the 80's, I can still learn a new way. Heck, I'm even cheering for England in soccer.

Originally posted by Scottish
*scritches head* No school board? No comprehensive ability for the government to check teaching curriculum? No parents involved in the education of their children? Why only prior to the 80's? I was born well before the 80's, I can still learn a new way. Heck, I'm even cheering for England in soccer.

Because all the Arafats, Sharons, and Scottishs of the world need to die out while those things are fixed.

:laugh:

Are you wishing me to die?

You're comparing me to Sharon and Arafat?

Originally posted by Scottish
Are you wishing me to die?

You're comparing me to Sharon and Arafat?

**** you are sharp ... LOL ... seriously though ... you understand the jest of what I'm trying to say ... if old timers who care more about their legacy than the future of the people they leave behind hold sway ... what improvement on current condition between Arabs and, as you say, 'Joooos' can there be?

:bored:

I would appreciate it if you would stop acting like a dip shit and stop going personal and acting like it's funny.

Sharon and Arafat and their respective parties (Likud and PLO), have to go before there can be peace, that I agree with.

Originally posted by Scottish
I would appreciate it if you would stop acting like a dip shit and stop going personal and acting like it's funny.


And you are supposed to be lecturing us about how to get along?

:laugh: I thought shit was banned ... cool.

Maybe I've Misjudged You? (http://www.englishsabla.com/forum/showthread.php?postid=355815#post355815)

:flamed:

One shouldn't have to lecture about getting along. Don't you think it's a bit boring? It's not funny, and you think people can't understand what you're doing? I'm more direct, you are more passive aggressive.

It's just immature and takes away from the thread. So please stick with the thread. I don't think we're that far apart (if at all) about the uselessness of the most radical parties of each side being in charge in Palestine and Israel.

Originally posted by Scottish
One shouldn't have to lecture about getting along. Don't you think it's a bit boring? It's not funny, and you think people can't understand what you're doing? I'm more direct, you are more passive aggressive.


What am I doing - if you are soo direct, why can't you come out and say it?

I believe what I'm trying to get at ... if it wasn't clear enough my 'macho man' is that Israelis have a homeland, that they have no legal or near historical justification to be there ... and Jews should not be pitied more than Native Americans or Aborgines ... who have been ethnically cleansed and pillaged for their land.

Am I not direct enough when I say:

Where is the 'feeling' for the Palestinians -
WHO HAVE NO STATE,
NO NATIONAL IDENTITY,
and HUMILATION OF OCCUPATION INFLICTED ON THEM FOR HALF A CENTURY?

:scratch:

if it wasn't clear enough my 'macho man'

This is the insults I'm talking about. You simply cannot stop, can you? What is your major malfunction?

I believe what I'm trying to get at ... if it wasn't clear enough my 'macho man' is that Israelis have a homeland, that they have no legal or near historical justification to be there ... and Jews should not be pitied more than Native Americans or Aborgines ... who have been ethnically cleansed and pillaged for their land.

Am I not direct enough when I say:

Where is the 'feeling' for the Palestinians -
WHO HAVE NO STATE,
NO NATIONAL IDENTITY,
and HUMILATION OF OCCUPATION INFLICTED ON THEM FOR HALF A CENTURY?



Read a little, I never said Jews should be pittied more then anyone. I don't believe they should be pitied at all.

Native americans were not "ethnically cleansed" they have their native lands back, receive monthly government checks for simply being native Americans. I go to the Blackfoot Tribe every year. I'll post some pictures for you after July, if you like.

Aborigines don't have the concept of owning land.

And of course I "feel" for the Palestinians. Their "no state" is Arafat's fault. National identity? What was it before the Israelies got there when the land belonged to Jordan?

Humiliation of occupation inflicted on them for half a century? Try 300. You are talking to the wrong ethnic group to talk about occupation.

Glad you liked my previous post Pretender :D .

Originally posted by Enigma
Obviously Sophie misinterpreted my post just like the rest of the extremists on board!


I did not misinterpret anything and also I do not know why you bundled me off in the same category as the "Extremists", when I clearly do not differentiate between a Muslim Arab or a Jewish Arab concerning the land.


my reason for starting this thread was in response to all the hatred most Arab Muslim's harbour for the Jews, they who don't take the time to THINK about where the opposing side is coming from. 'Know your enemy' we are taught.


Show me where in my previous post did I display any such hatred towards the Jews? Perhaps I did towards the Zionists. :scratch:

Didn't we have Jewish around the Madinah whom Prophet Mohammed kicked out (he did it for valid reasons true, but point is he did it)?


You see to have forgotten that MOST of the Muslims living in Medina, were originally Medaniyeen. Therefore there was no difference between the Jews and them in resepect to being the original people of that town. As for the muhajereen (the immigrants) they made up a small proportion of the Muslim community in Medina. The Prophet, being the leader of the Muslims, never kicked the Jews out on the basis that they were Jews. The Jews and the Muslims had agreements and comditions, in which they had to abide to. If one broke those rules (when BOTH parties agreed to it) and therefore got kicked out as a result, therefore that does not add any strength to your argument.

My point, which you missed, was that (regardless of numbers) they DON'T HAVE A LAND which is exclusively theirs. !


Oh plz. Is there ANY country, other than Israel, which citizenship is based solely on religion? Give me one Muslim country in which nationality/citizenship is based purely on religion, rather than being originally from that land/ethnicity. All the Muslim countries although the majority may be Muslims, also have Christians, Hindus etc. Israel chooses its citizens depending on their religion, whatever their ethnicity.

The only other country that is based on denomination is 100% Roman Catholic, the Vatican, the smallest country in the world and WITHIN Italy itself. It is no surprise that it is 100% RC, when Italy (that surrounds it) has a 97.2% percentage of Catholics. No one took over any land and kicked the original people out.

http://www.adherents.com/largecom/com_romcath.html

Give me one Muslim country in which nationality/citizenship is based solely on religion.

I pity you (that comment isn't just for you Sophie) for not being able to see outside of your own narrow world.


Pity me as much as you like, but I stand by my previous opinion, although I am always open to new ideas. So far you have been accusing me of "blind hatred" towards the Jews, and may I ask where have I displayed that in my previous post? Correction: I do not like the Zionists much, whatever the religion. :D Nor is it blind hatred, but an opinion that I have formed.

Originally posted by sophis^catrina
[B][size=1]
I did not misinterpret anything and also I do not know why you bundled me off in the same category as the "Extremists", when I clearly do not differentiate between a Muslim Arab or a Jewish Arab concerning the land.Show me where in my previous post did I display any such hatred towards the Jews? Perhaps I did towards the Zionists. :scratch:

I was explaining to you why I started the thread dear. Guess I shouldn't have wasted the effort.



The Prophet, being the leader of the Muslims, never kicked the Jews out on the basis that they were Jews. The Jews and the Muslims had agreements and comditions, in which they had to abide to. If one broke those rules (when BOTH parties agreed to it) and therefore got kicked out as a result, therefore that does not add any strength to your argument.

Exactly. Like I said; the whole land thing ISN'T just about the original people and the strangers.


Oh plz. Is there ANY country, other than Israel, which citizenship is based solely on religion? Give me one Muslim country in which nationality/citizenship is based purely on religion, rather than being originally from that land/ethnicity. All the Muslim countries although the majority may be Muslims, also have Christians, Hindus etc. Israel chooses its citizens depending on their religion, whatever their ethnicity.

How can you compare (Israel/Palestine) to the rest of the world?! You mentioning 'citezenship' just shows that you are not acknowledging the fact that it is considered the original center of the 3 main faiths worldwide! It isn't about politics or a country's rights here, its about Religion!

Give me one Muslim country in which nationality/citizenship is based solely on religion

Try the cradel of Islam, Saudi Arabia.

Originally posted by Enigma
I was explaining to you why I started the thread dear.


Is this the way how you explain a thread to somebody, by attacking them first!

I pity you for not being able to see outside of your own narrow world.

How can you compare (Israel/Palestine) to the rest of the world?! You mentioning 'citezenship' just shows that you are not acknowledging the fact that it is considered the original center of the 3 main faiths worldwide! It isn't about politics or a country's rights here, its about Religion!

:laugh: Following your logic, since it is the original center of the 3 main faiths, therefore ALL Muslims, ALL Christians and ALL Jews have the right to become citizens of that land!

Try the cradel of Islam, Saudi Arabia.

Sanwin, can Muslims, whatever ethnicity (e.g. South Asian, American) , become a citizen of Saudi Arabia?

I know that in Oman, even if your own brother was Omani born, but you weren't you may have a lot of trouble in gettting hold of an Omani passport.

I've decided to spend next sunday holding hands and singing 'We are the world' with my Jewish brothers and sisters in a show of solidarity ...

:duck:

All marxists, racists, extremists, facists, pacifists, anarchists, pinko-liberalists (or any other ists) can join me (that includes you non-muslim or arab brethren ... Scotty, Sanwin, etc) ...

Maybe if we optimized land-use like the way Kazaa or Skype optimized file-sharing and bandwidth (Peer-2-Peer) we could all live on this ever shrinking planet in peace ...

:scratch:

(oh yes ... and kill religion).

:laugh:

PS Catrina, bravo on you, it's so rare to find a muslim girl who is soo eloquent and logical in her arguement - on a topic other muslim girls either shy away from or don't even know heads or tail about speaking about with authority. :app:

Originally posted by Pretender

PS Catrina, bravo on you, it's so rare to find a muslim girl who is soo eloquent and logical in her arguement - on a topic other muslim girls either shy away from or don't even know heads or tail about speaking about with authority. :app:

* :blush: ing here* That's such a compliment hearing that from you Pretender. Thanks a lot! :color:

with all due respect

:rolleyes: yeah right

do you think its right what the Israel military doing now

you mean the targeted killings of terrorists?!

these people have openly declared war against the G-d's Holy Land, given by G-d to the Jews, and settled by them, long before Christianity or Islam; OF COURSE the Land must be defended!

the Bible attests numerous, numerous times to the fact of the Jews' right to the Holy Land of Israel

we certainly WILL fight to defend our G-d-given Holy Land, and those who would defy G-d's clear declarations of the Jewish people's ownership of it in the Bible by stooping to murder, even of civilians

oh, and Enigma, thanks for your "pity," but no thanks; I guess you mean well, but such "pity" the Jews don't need

how could you feel for them?

Isreali's? i kept reading your post over & over again, i though you were mistaken, but your feeling sorry for a bunch of murderers? gosh!!!!!

i pity them, they have no land & have chosen to take someone elses...disgusting, imagine them taking yours.