View Full Version : The Passion of the Christ
Things I could not understand after watching the movie "the passion of the Christ."
1- Jesus was shown in more than one scene praying to god "father" and asking him to help him. If Jesus was a god, who was the god he asked him for help?
2- While Jesus was being crucified, he asked his god to forgive his people, why would a person, who is said to be a god, ask his god to forgive his people and not forgive them himself?
3- Marie, Jesus' mother, was shown as a weak person who tries to help her son but could not. Don't christens consider her a god too?!! Why could not she help her child?
4- During the movie, there were many things that Jesus himself didn't know they would happen. He was escaping from place to another to hide from his enemies. If he was a god, why couldn't he know what was going to happen? Why couldnt he escape his fate?
More to come...
Shakoosh Kabir
25-04-04, 07:55 PM
As you do not pay attention and fail to digest responses, I shall repeat for the umpteenth time:
1. Jesus is God The Son on earth. He was praying to God The Father in Heaven;
2. See 1.
3. Christians have not, do not and never will consider Mary a "god".
4. God came down to earth in the form of Jesus Christ, who, though divine, still had to live within a mortal frame until his death on the cross (and subsequent resurrection and ascension into Heaven).
How can Jesus's father be a god, him a god and yet his mother is not?
Originally posted by Shakoosh Kabir
4. God came down to earth in the form of Jesus Christ, who, though divine, still had to live within a mortal frame until his death on the cross (and subsequent resurrection and ascension into Heaven).
So Jesus is God? Or God is Jeus and not his son?
sanwin25
25-04-04, 08:18 PM
That is why it is know as the MYSTERY OF THE TRINITY.
Three parts of ONE GOD.
Jesus was MAN and GOD at the same time.
As a MAN he suffered from the same fear, anexities and pain human beings do.
As GOD he could avoid it all but he knew that was his destiny.
Fine. Mary being a God; we'll chalk that up to the 'mystery'.
Three parts of ONE GOD.
Okay... So Jesus is just one part of God? And the other part is in the Heavens, the third in Gabriel; the Holy Spirit ?
sanwin25
25-04-04, 08:30 PM
Mary is not a God.
Originally posted by sanwin25
Mary is not a God.
I didn't say she was? I meant the issue of her not being one, which we chalked up to a mystery. Unless you have an explanation why the son and father are but not the mother?
Shakoosh Kabir
25-04-04, 10:28 PM
In Christianity, Mary is revered as the mother of Godīs earthly manifestation, Jesus Christ. "God" comprises God The Father (i.e. the Jewish Yahweh, the Muslim Allah), God The Son (Jesus Christ, The Anointed Messiah) and God The Holy Ghost (The Spirit Of God The Father & Son, but not The Archangel Gabriel).
sanwin25
25-04-04, 11:07 PM
Who said it was a mystery.
The mystery is how the Quran got it so wrong and made Mary part of the Trinity when Christianity never made he a part !
The mystery is how the Quran got it so wrong and made Mary part of the Trinity when Christianity never made he a part !
Where does it say that in the Quran? :os
sanwin25
25-04-04, 11:45 PM
Thats what I've been told.
I also remember reading about it somewhere.
Let me see if I can pull that up.
Originally posted by Shakoosh Kabir
As you do not pay attention and fail to digest responses, I shall repeat for the umpteenth time:
1. Jesus is God The Son on earth. He was praying to God The Father in Heaven;
Okey, if jess was the god on earth and he was praying to another god who was in heaven then, there were 2 gods. One on earth another on heaven. The one on earth was less powerful than the one on heaven and that's why he was asking him for help. But then, god must be perfect and he should not ask someone else to help him. :confused: analyzing your response made me go :confused: :lost: :tiered: :duh: :yawn:
Originally posted by Shakoosh Kabir
3. Christians have not, do not and never will consider Mary a "god".
[/B]
So how could she beget a god if she was not a god. And if god made her beget a god, who was that god the one on heaven or the one on earth?
Originally posted by Shakoosh Kabir
4. God came down to earth in the form of Jesus Christ, who, though divine, still had to live within a mortal frame until his death on the cross (and subsequent resurrection and ascension into Heaven). [/B]
But that does not explain why he couldn't understand the things that were going around him. Even though he took a human form, he must still be a god who knew everything around him, but as it was shown in the movie, he did not.
san-never- wins25 The Quran has never made Mary nor her son, Prophet Jesus, part of the Trinity! For us, Muslims, Jesus and his mother were no more than humans.
Be careful next time because saying such a thing effects your credibility
Cerulean
26-04-04, 03:27 PM
Originally posted by Shakoosh Kabir
In Christianity, Mary is revered as the mother of Godīs earthly manifestation, Jesus Christ. "God" comprises God The Father (i.e. the Jewish Yahweh, the Muslim Allah), God The Son (Jesus Christ, The Anointed Messiah) and God The Holy Ghost (The Spirit Of God The Father & Son, but not The Archangel Gabriel).
So, there are THREE gods? :eyes:
MoonChild
26-04-04, 06:45 PM
Originally posted by Cerulean
So, there are THREE gods? :eyes:
:bang: :bang: :bang: :bang:
that has already been explained and argued ad nauseum about 8 times on this board ... maybe it was before your time.
Not 3 gods, 3 aspects of the same god.
After all, doesn't Allah have 99 names for the 99 attributes? It's a very similar concept.
sanwin25
27-04-04, 05:54 AM
Explain this.
005.116
YUSUFALI: And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.
PICKTHAL: And when Allah saith: O Jesus, son of Mary! Didst thou say unto mankind: Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah? he saith: Be glorified! It was not mine to utter that to which I had no right. If I used to say it, then Thou knewest it. Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I know not what is in Thy Mind. Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Knower of Things Hidden?
SHAKIR: And when Allah will say: O Isa son of Marium! did you say to men, Take me and my mother for two gods besides Allah he will say: Glory be to Thee, it did not befit me that I should say what I had no right to (say); if I had said it, Thou wouldst indeed have known it; Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I do not know what is in Thy mind, surely Thou art the great Knower of the unseen things.
What's the official rosary of the Catholic Church?
Does it not include:
"Hail, Holy Queen, Mother of Mercy, hail, our life, our sweetness, and our hope! To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve! To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this vale of tears. Turn then, most gracious advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us; and after this, our exile, show us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary!"
Sounds like a prayer to a God to me :os
Christians might not worship her today but they have in the past.
Actually ...
Hail Mary, full of grace.
The Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou amongst women,
and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God,
pray for us sinners,
now and at the hour of our death.
Amen.
Now muslims believe that there is nothing that god cannot do.
Why can't he be all 3 at once ... father, son, holy spirit
Or even be a part of each and every one of us at once ;)
Now muslims believe that there is nothing that god cannot do.
Why can't he be all 3 at once ... father, son, holy spirit
Or even be a part of each and every one of us at once
He can but we refuse to believe he would assume the shape of a human. He is too Glorious and Holy for that.
---
Why would you pray to someone who isn't your God?
Originally posted by Enigma
He can but we refuse to believe he would assume the shape of a human.What is the shape of your soul ...?
He is too Glorious and Holy for that.He is too glorious to be part of his own creation ... I don't get that.
Why would you pray to someone who isn't your God?Why does anyone pray period ... If anything I do for inner peace. ;)
And we are back to God being a little part of each and everyone of us.
I don't want to go on and on ... it's just what I choose to believe.
To each his own as long as he/she is not harming other human beings.
sanwin25
27-04-04, 03:20 PM
Enigma, you seem to have forgotten to comment on those verses.
How could the Quran have got it so wrong ?
As I understood from the posts here, Jesus (God in human form) was praying to God "The Father in Heaven".
Both Gods are two aspects of the same God.
And I came to the conclusion that God was actually praying to himself!!
Am I correct?
If yes, does that make sense?!
I mean, why bother? can't God do whatever he likes.. why does he need to pray to himself?
And why didnt Jesus pray to the holy spirit?
Is it the same kind of thing muslims do when they pray to Allah by saying certain names rather than others although all refer to the same God?
sanwin25
27-04-04, 03:52 PM
Try it again slowly.
God the Father
God the Son (Jesus Christ) who manifested himself as a man)
God the Holy Spirit.
All three aspects of One God.
So while Jesus was God and man at the same time, as a man he suffered pain and fear as any man would.
Originally posted by sanwin25
Enigma, you seem to have forgotten to comment on those verses.
How could the Quran have got it so wrong ?
But it didn't. That's why I posted that prayer, there were some people who considered her a God... maybe not directly but they thought of her as one in a way!
MoonChild
27-04-04, 05:02 PM
Originally posted by DeepBlueSea
As I understood from the posts here, Jesus (God in human form) was praying to God "The Father in Heaven".
Both Gods are two aspects of the same God.
And I came to the conclusion that God was actually praying to himself!!
Why? Because Jesus' whole life was for MAN'S benefit. He was not praying to God so that GOD would hear him, but so that MAN would hear him.
It was all played out for the story- the Sacrifice was necessary in Christian dogma, and Jesus' whole life was a parable (moral story).
Or, as I believe, it WAS just a story.
But that's what the Christians believe.
MoonChild
27-04-04, 05:03 PM
Originally posted by Enigma
But it didn't. That's why I posted that prayer, there were some people who considered her a God... maybe not directly but they thought of her as one in a way!
:D I've always snickered at the Catholic treatment of Mary, it's SOOOO obviously Goddess worship, subsumed into the patriarch "God as the Father" mentality of the early Church...
Shakoosh Kabir
27-04-04, 06:39 PM
Originally posted by Enigma
But it didn't. That's why I posted that prayer, there were some people who considered her a God... maybe not directly but they thought of her as one in a way!
If you read the previous postings you will see that what you say is fallacious. Please comment on Sanwinīs quotations from the Qur'an, otherwise we will be compelled to draw the conclusion that Muslims not only understand little of Judaism and Christianity, if indeed anything, but also do not properly understand Islamic teachings. For a religion which claims to be a successor to Judaism and Christianity, how is it that none of your versions of Jewish and Christians tenets actually corresponds with the Jewish and Christian facts?
3 Aspects of one god? so one of those was tortured..? why would god allow himself to be tortured? how are u seperating them.. if they're one.
:tiered:
Shak I already commented on Sanwin's quotations from the Quran when I said
But it didn't. That's why I posted that prayer, there were some people who considered her a God... maybe not directly but they thought of her as one in a way!
:duh:
------
Shak are you telling me that NONE of the sects of Christianity treat Mary in a goddess way? Even if they don't directly say she IS a goddess?
sanwin25
28-04-04, 04:59 AM
The question is that Mary is not part of the Trinity. In no sect is she considered as such.
How could the Quran get it so wrong to include her as part of it ?
Originally posted by sanwin25
The question is that Mary is not part of the Trinity. In no sect is she considered as such.
How could the Quran get it so wrong to include her as part of it ?
The Quran did NOT state her to be part of the trinity, merely that some considered her to be a goddess!
sanwin25
28-04-04, 05:15 AM
005.116
YUSUFALI: And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.
PICKTHAL: And when Allah saith: O Jesus, son of Mary! Didst thou say unto mankind: Take me ONEand my mother TWO for two gods beside Allah? THREE ! BINGO ! TRINITY ! he saith: Be glorified! It was not mine to utter that to which I had no right. If I used to say it, then Thou knewest it. Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I know not what is in Thy Mind. Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Knower of Things Hidden?
SHAKIR: And when Allah will say: O Isa son of Marium! did you say to men, Take me ONE and my mother TWO for two gods besides Allah THREE ! BINGO ! TRINITY he will say: Glory be to Thee, it did not befit me that I should say what I had no right to (say); if I had said it, Thou wouldst indeed have known it; Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I do not know what is in Thy mind, surely Thou art the great Knower of the unseen things
Really ?
Really ?
Really ?
Hey Sanwin, you seem to be so into this maybe a sedative would be good? :duh:
---
Nope, I still don't see it. When the Quran mentions her it just states that she was a considered a goddess along with Jesus.
Sanwin I went to a government Omani school and our Religion books were VERY fundamental and traditional. When we took the lesson on the Trinity, Mary was not mentioned AT ALL.
sanwin25
28-04-04, 05:31 AM
Maybe they were using a different version of the Quran ?
:scratch:
Originally posted by sanwin25
Maybe they were using a different version of the Quran ?
:scratch:
There aren't any 'versions'. There is one Quran only.
.San-never-wins25
All what you have provided so far does not say that she is part of trinity in Islam. It says the opposite. It says that you Christians consider her and her son to be part of trinity.
About the versions of the Quran, can you plz provide us with the different versions you talked about? Quoting the lines where the clashes between the 2 versions exists will be appreciated
sanwin25
28-04-04, 03:23 PM
Sad Sack,
You just proved my point.
No Christian has ever claimed that Mary is part of the Trinity.
However, what is amazing, is that the Quran, delivered directly from God, got it so wrong.
Didn't Allah know that ?
Shakoosh Kabir
28-04-04, 03:46 PM
Having read the Qur'an, I have come to the conclusion that the references to such characters as "Issa" and "Miriam" are describing completely different people, i.e. not Jesus Christ, the Son of God, or his sacred Mother, the Blessed Virgin Mary.
Just to correct a mistake I have posted in the previous post, in the Ayah, Allah is asking Prophet Jesus if he told people to consider him and his mother as gods. Jesus replied "It was not mine to utter that to which I had no right. If I used to say it, then Thou knewest it. Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I know not what is in Thy Mind. Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Knower of Things Hidden?" I think I was wrong when I said it was talking about trinity.
Sorry.
Originally posted by Shakoosh Kabir
Having read the Qur'an, I have come to the conclusion that the references to such characters as "Issa" and "Miriam" are describing completely different people, i.e. not Jesus Christ, the Son of God, or his sacred Mother, the Blessed Virgin Mary.
No, you are wrong. They are describing the same 2 persons. It is even mentioned there that you, Christians, glorify Jesus too much and consider him as a god, but he is not. And by the way, Can you tell us the basis you've built your conclusion on?
sanwin25
28-04-04, 04:12 PM
Don't feel too bad.
It's the first time (or first thing) you have been wrong about.
You should be used to it by now.
:wave:
Shakoosh Kabir
28-04-04, 05:18 PM
Originally posted by SadLad
No, you are wrong. They are describing the same 2 persons. It is even mentioned there that you, Christians, glorify Jesus too much and consider him as a god, but he is not. And by the way, Can you tell us the basis you've built your conclusion on?
The basis is the fact that the details concerning characters from the Old and New Testaments of the Bible, as found in the Qur'an, do not tally with what is actually written. If Islam is supposed to be a successor, surely these matters would have been straightened out, and donīt please wheel out the old chestnut about the Bible being "corrupted". There is no evidence for that either.
Cetacea
29-04-04, 04:29 AM
Originally posted by Shakoosh Kabir
donīt please wheel out the old chestnut about the Bible being "corrupted". There is no evidence for that either.
That wouldn't be a good defense strategy anyway because the Qur'an is also full of mistakes and contradictions according to this site http://answering-islam.org.uk/Quran/Contra/
Shakoosh Kabir
29-04-04, 08:19 AM
There is no "defence". The root problem lies in the fact that the creators of Islam attempted to include distorted references to Judaism and Christianity as perceived on the Arabian peninsula in the 7th and 8th Century. For this reason alone, neither Jews nor Christians accept the validity of Islam as a related successor . Islam was, however, very successful as a powerful pan-Arab cultural cohesive force, spreading later to those territories with which Arab traders had contact.
Originally posted by Shakoosh Kabir
The basis is the fact that the details concerning characters from the Old and New Testaments of the Bible, as found in the Qur'an, do not tally with what is actually written. If Islam is supposed to be a successor, surely these matters would have been straightened out, and donīt please wheel out the old chestnut about the Bible being "corrupted". There is no evidence for that either.
Let's forget about the bible being corrupted and all the things related to Islam. Just answer my previous questions about the movie. One more question to add. By the end of the movie, Jesus said Oh father, why have you forsaken me? What the hell is this supposed to mean? If Jesus was a god, why would he say such a thing? Reasoning it logically, I can tell that Jesus was asking a completely different person who was more powerful than him. Can you plz clear it out for me?
Shakoosh Kabir
04-05-04, 06:22 PM
Sanwin addressed this issue earlier in the thread:
Originally posted by sanwin25
That is why it is know as the MYSTERY OF THE TRINITY.
Three parts of ONE GOD.
Jesus was MAN and GOD at the same time.
As a MAN he suffered from the same fear, anexities and pain human beings do.
As GOD he could avoid it all but he knew that was his destiny.
Originally posted by Shakoosh Kabir
Sanwin addressed this issue earlier in the thread:
I still can't understand this concept. Can you explain it for me plz? Don't tell me that it's a difficult term to understand. A religion is useless if its followers can't understand its concepts and bases. Don't you agree with me on that?!
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