Questions for wanderer!

[silver_ring]

i just want to ask you questions , And i hope to answer all my questions . And the questions what u dont like to , plz ignore it .


simple questions,

1)who is your LORD?
2)who create your Grandfather? And who create your father?
And can you create ur son?
3)where did dead people go ?
4)why the sunrise and the sunset is happened daily without any mistakes?
5)why only the human had mind but other creature do not have ?
6)what is the desire?
7)why we should die ?


more to come

[Enigma]

Silvo I told you in another thread if you want to get personal with Wanderer then use the PM FACILITY.

I don't think its fair to open a thread with personal questions without his consent.

Wandy, you say the word.

[Wanderer]

Originally posted by Enigma
Silvo I told you in another thread if you want to get personal with Wanderer then use the PM FACILITY.

I don't think its fair to open a thread with personal questions without his consent.

Wandy, you say the word.

Thanks, Enigma, I don't mind if he has questions about my worldview, but probably a general Religion subject rather than "Other Monotheist Religion" subject.

Silver_ring, you DO realize that you've asked some of these questions before, right ?

1)who is your LORD?

None.

2)who create your Grandfather? And who create your father?

Great grandfather and great grandmother, and grandfather and grandmother, respectively. This is simply biology and geneology.

And can you create ur son?

MoonChild and I did so, yes. I believe it happened on the boat - though I don't know exactly where on the boat :yikes: (MoonChild hates when I say this, but it's true). Fortunately it is a stable boat and we were in no danger of tipping.

3)where did dead people go ?

Their bodies are buried, burned, mummified, left to rot, eaten, etc., according to local traditions or, more sadly, as the killers decided :sad: I don't know if there remains more to a person after that other than the memopries held by others.

I have no problem with the idea that some part of our personality continues, but have not experienced any reason to think that is so other than wishful thinking and some readings on our brains being like radio/TV for our "spirit" to experience a physical existance.

4)why the sunrise and the sunset is happened daily without any mistakes?

The Earth rotates on a North South axis so that it appears that the Sun is moving East to West through the sky/heavens. As we first see the Sun we call sunrise. At last glimpse before it slips over the horizon, we call sunset. But it is incorrect, as the Sun isn't causing that action, It is the Earth spinning that causes it.

5)why only the human had mind but other creature do not have ?

I don't know this to be true. Dolphins appear to be extremely intelligent. Another prespective is that a "mind" is obviously not necessary to live in this world - as you suggest we are the only creatures that have one, all other living things have gone on and on for millions of years without one.

Seems it's not really necessary for most life forms. But remember, this is with you presumption that only humans have a "mind".

My pet dog knew she did wrong when she ate something from off of our table and she would hide BEFORE we found out. This is some pretty sophisticated thinking "mind" as far as I'm concerned.

6)what is the desire?

Some desires are instinctual, hormonal, greed, etc. There are many reasons for desire.

Salmon fish swim upstream to their deaths to mate. There is nothing they would rather do at that time.
I've desired to explore the mysteries of females since I was 7.
Some desire power and prestige.

7)why we should die ?

I don't know. It's not just us though, it seems all living things die. So the question is really, why do all living things die ?

Sometimes it's accidental, sometimes we are food, sometimes it is because someone else wants to kill us, sometimes it is a consequence of natural forces, sometimes it is disease, sometimes, if we are lucky, it is of old age.

Living things wear out and die if other things do not happen to it first.

[silver_ring]

8)why human handled the world and only they having full power and all the controls in their hands ?why no one share them like ..dogs or cows , loins, tigers, why only human ?

9)why we love to eat ? love to have sex ? why we have those desires? And its the reasons of human existence in earth ?

10)why do we sleep when feel tire?

11)why do we cry when we feel sad ? And why do laugh when feel happy ?And why do we feel shames?

12)do you say "thanks GOD" when if it happened some thing made you feel happy without expect that will happen ?if yes , why do u say it ?




more to come ..


-----------------

Enigma
maybe some one can learn from it ,

[Wanderer]

8)why human handled the world and only they having full power and all the controls in their hands ?why no one share them like ..dogs or cows , loins, tigers, why only human ?

I'm not sure what you mean by "full power" and I think you are making the mistake of extending modern achievments (of "domesticated" humans) back into the past.

What humans can do in terms of engineering is a very recent development. For most of our existance, smashing rocks together to make sharp edges and starting fires was all we could do. Later, when it got cold, we all learned to make animal skins into clothes (earlier inhabitants at the extreme north probably learned this first).

Only in the last few thousand years, possibly in parallel with the development of agriculture and domestication of animals, would humans build things. Nomads don't bother with permanent structures.

So, of several hundreds of thousands of years people just wandered about chipping stones, starting fires, and trying to find food faster than becoming food. Cool, but not quite masters of the universe. Most of whatever we can do now was obviously unnecessary for our survival.

If we have "full power" and "all the controls" then how is it that viruses and single-celled bacteria kill so many of us ? Sure Tigers and Lions get a few of us each year, sharks grab a few more as do saltwater crocodiles. Snakes get a fair number of us. But it is the invisible, simple little "germs" that can truly devestate large numbers of us.

You must put away your notions of us as creatures having always possessed 21st century traits - or even historical traits. Bedouin Arabs did just fine without reading and writing, eh ? Look to the Bushmen, Inuit, historic Hawaiians, etc. All stone age, all doing just fine until met by more modern peoples.

9)why we love to eat ? love to have sex ? why we have those desires? And its the reasons of human existence in earth ?

We are animals. We love to eat, sleep, and make new people because that's what animals do. But just think about it for a moment, if any complex animal didn't eat, sleep, and make replacements they would no longer exist.

10)why do we sleep when feel tire?

That's what all mammals do.

11)why do we cry when we feel sad ? And why do laugh when feel happy ?And why do we feel shames?

I don't know the basis for these behaviors. Babies cry so it is probably instinctual. Shame is learned (and earned) - there have been many peoples who don't feel shame for the same things we might. For instance, I would be delighted to get another daughter, while pre-Islamic husbands would just as well bury their girl baby alive in the dirt. He though having a girl baby might be a source of shame, I think killing a child is a shame.


12)do you say "thanks GOD" when if it happened some thing made you feel happy without expect that will happen ?if yes , why do u say it ?

I do not say "thank god" or "thank the gods" except as an jocular expression.

I try and take good fortune and bad well - that is I don't get overjoyed at the good or too sad at bad. I like what Abraham Lincoln said:

"It is said an Eastern monarch once charged his wise men to invent him a sentence to be ever in view, and which should be true and appropriate in all times and situations. They presented him the words: 'And this, too, shall pass away.' How much it expresses! How chastening in the hour of pride! How consoling in the depths of affliction!"



----------------

[Bucks Fizz]

Can you tell me, how was the stars and planets created and how come earth is the only hospitable planet in the solar system? Pure random chance i spose? But really i would like to hear your view on how the earth was created?

[Shakoosh Kabir]

Originally posted by Bucks Fizz
how come earth is the only hospitable planet in the solar system?

I suggest you update your scientific knowledge of the solar sytem, then you will understand that what you say is no longer accepted as a fact.

[IceTea]

Wonderer,
If you are in a middle of the sea and suddenly a strong storm started, what do you say or who will you ask for help??

PS: your communication system is not working, so don't try to use the radio.

[Wanderer]

Originally posted by IceTea
Wonderer,
If you are in a middle of the sea and suddenly a strong storm started, what do you say or who will you ask for help??

I suppose you mean that I am alone. In that case I just get to work and hope for the best.

IceTea, I don't call out to gods - except, as I mentioned, jocularly . In the above storm situation I would probably swear/curse a lot to build up confidence energy and to feel like I was fighting back. Same as yelling when counter-attacking someone or running an obstacle course.



Originally posted by IceTea

PS: your communication system is not working, so don't try to use the radio.

Ah, kind of like the compass is broken and not knowing which direction to pray ? :wink:

[Wanderer]

Originally posted by Bucks Fizz
Can you tell me, how was the stars and planets created and how come earth is the only hospitable planet in the solar system?


Originally posted by Bucks Fizz
Can you tell me, how was the stars and planets created

I believe that these are distinct processes.

Read this to see one current theory.

http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/astr161/lect/solarsys/nebular.html




Originally posted by Bucks Fizz

and how come earth is the only hospitable planet in the solar system?

Do you know that to be the case ? How many planets have been adequately explored ?

Both Venus and Mars may once have had life and Mars may still yet. Some Moons may have life. Did you know that NASA scientists intentionally maneuvered a space vehicle away from a Jovian moon to avoid possibly contaminating it's environment. Thay were worried that there still might be Earth life on this vehicle and that it might very well grow on this other world after crashing into it !

Keep in mind that the distribution of life on Earth (the biosphere) is barely a film over this planet. Most life exists in a band defined by between 200 feet below the surface to 1 mile above sea level. Obviously there is also life above and below those boundaries - this is where it starts getting extreme. there are "organisms living in the deep-sea hydrothermal vents and hot pools in Yellowstone National Park". And "superthermophilic microorganisms inhabit pressurized environments beneath deep-sea hydrothermal vents. These super-organisms not only exist, but thrive at temperatures up to and possibly beyond 150 Centigrade (more than 300 Fahrenheit), setting a new limit at which life can exist." (1)

Even bitterly cold environments can support life (think Martian-like). "Lake Vostok, a ... freshwater lake in eastern Antarctica with an ice cap nearly four kilometers thick. Frozen bacteria have been found close to the bottom of its cap." (2) Surveys are being made of nearby frozen salty lakes in conditions which are "thought to persist today beneath 4 kilometres of ice on Jupiter's moon Europa." (2)

So it is premature to conclude that Earth is the only object in the solar system currently hosting life or of ever have hosting life. And the distribution of life on these other worlds may differ from ours - it may be a much narrower biosphere - and it may be centered below ice or 100 feet below ground.


(1) http://www.nsf.gov/od/lpa/news/publicat/frontier/7-97/7extreme.htm
(2) http://cips.berkeley.edu/newsclips/021216-3/


[i]Originally posted by Bucks Fizz

But really i would like to hear your view on how the earth was created?

I don't have strong opinions about theories of planetary formation other than I don't think magic was necessarily involved. I think condensing gasses sounds plausible.

You do realize that it has only been a few hundred years since mankind even came to realize that the Earth is a planet, don't you ?

[IceTea]

Originally posted by Wanderer
I suppose you mean that I am alone. In that case I just get to work and hope for the best.

IceTea, I don't call out to gods - except, as I mentioned, jocularly . In the above storm situation I would probably swear/curse a lot to build up confidence energy and to feel like I was fighting back. Same as yelling when counter-attacking someone or running an obstacle course.


So basically you will build your energy to fight the power of Allah. Did you forget that you are a weak human being, yes the person at the youth age will be strong but what happens after reaching 70 or 80 years. This human being will be weak and then will end up in a hole until the final day, so how come you think to stand against the power of Allah while you are in the middle of the sea, shouldn't you ask Allah for help?:

[10:22]He it is Who makes you travel by land and sea; until when you are in the ships, and they sail on with them in a pleasant breeze, and they rejoice, a violent wind overtakes them and the billows surge in on them from all sides, and they become certain that they are encompassed about, they pray to Allah, being sincere to Him in obedience: If Thou dost deliver us from this, we will most certainly be of the grateful ones.

[10:23]But when He delivers them, lo! they are unjustly rebellious in the earth. O men! your rebellion is against your own souls-- provision (only) of this world's life-- then to Us shall be your return, so We will inform you of what you did.



Ah, kind of like the compass is broken and not knowing which direction to pray ? :wink:

We don't need to use a compass to know the direction of "kaba", we can observe the sun set direction. And if we couldn't find out then just pray in any direction. Because All directions belongs to Allah.

[Wanderer]

Originally posted by IceTea
...so how come you think to stand against the power of Allah while you are in the middle of the sea, shouldn't you ask Allah for help?:

I don't recognize that there is any power of Allah.

Nope, it would never occur to me to ask Allah, nor Neptune, nor Poseidon for help.

I don't think that they exist.

[Soulless]

What makes you being alive ?

Do you believe in spirits or souls ?

who created humans ?


my english is not good enough to ask you more question ... but it would be a pleasure for me to hear your answers ..
:)

[Wanderer]

Originally posted by METAL PRIEST
What makes you being alive ?

Biochemistry.

Humans are alive in the same way and for the same reasons as any other animal.



Originally posted by METAL PRIEST

Do you believe in spirits or souls ?

I don't know - not really. I'm open to the possibility that there is a spiritual realm, but I haven't heard any credible evidence. I wish I could see a ghost or some spiritual manifestation, then I'd have to wonder what it is.



Originally posted by METAL PRIEST

who created humans ?

I don't think that humans were created by supernatural forces. It seems that natural forces (source populations, changes in climate, food resources, habitat, etc) can explain how we (and other animals) came to be here and what we are. We (Homo Sapiens) are the last of the bipedal primates now that Neanderthal Man is extinct.

The evidence suggests that "we" didn't even invent using fire. There are firepits associated with Homo Erectus - a possible ancestor of anatomically modern humans like you and me.

[IceTea]

Originally posted by Wanderer
I don't recognize that there is any power of Allah.

Nope, it would never occur to me to ask Allah, nor Neptune, nor Poseidon for help.

I don't think that they exist.

Animals knew the existance of Allah, how come you don't?

[Enigma]

Icey would you mind using a more polite way of approach? :rolleyes:

Wandy I'd like to thank you for your detailed explanations and answers about your beliefs. Hope none of the questions are bothering you :)

[IceTea]

Enigma, it's a polite logic just think about it.

[silver_ring]

Salim was walking in jungle And he was so happy singing and the weather was so nice, But suddenly tiger appear to him ,silem dont know what to do , He just start running And running But by mistake he was running in direction which leads to the river ,



he stopped when he reached to the river ,He can not do any thing the tiger behind him , within two ment,, silem will be in the tiger's stomach


suddenly A storm and heavy rains came for 2 seconds and then left and Salim surprises by the boat was ready for Him , He went and he is wondered how it came the boat???


Do you know who was salim ?
he is My friend :gap:

tell me whats ur opinion about this story ? do you think its truth??
if its not truth , WHY??please explain

[sanwin25]

I know a story about a girl called Goldilocks and her adventure with three bears.

Would you like me to tell that to you as well ?

[silver_ring]

Originally posted by sanwin25
I know a story about a girl called Goldilocks and her adventure with three bears.

Would you like me to tell that to you as well ?

NO thanks ;)

[Shakoosh Kabir]

Originally posted by Wanderer
now that Neanderthal Man is extinct.

W

You evidently haven´t been to any thrash metal gigs recently...

[amo_l_oman]

What i hate of Wandy is his popularity, he's called to answer in thousands threads opened for him, no one gimme face :sad:

[Wanderer]

Originally posted by IceTea
Animals knew the existance of Allah, how come you don't?

I don't consider Muslims to be animals.


I would love it if you could:

a) demonstarte that there is an Allah
b) demonstrate that animals are aware of Allah

Until then, you're just making things up.

[Wanderer]

Originally posted by silver_ring
[b]Salim was walking in jungle ...

tell me whats ur opinion about this story ? do you think its truth??
if its not truth , WHY??please explain

I don't know if it's the truth or not.

I doubt it happened in Oman.

[Wanderer]

Originally posted by amo_l_oman
What i hate of Wandy is his popularity, he's called to answer in thousands threads opened for him, no one gimme face :sad:

I credit my clean living and laid-back, nonconfrontational style :yikes:

[silver_ring]

Originally posted by Wanderer
I don't know if it's the truth or not.

i am very serious and u dent give any clear answer ,

SO it might happen like this ?

[Wanderer]

Originally posted by silver_ring
i am very serious and u dent give any clear answer ,

SO it might happen like this ?

Silver_ring, I answered honestly. I don't know if the story you are telling is true or not.

There are some questionable parts to it:

a) If Salim was singing, then the tiger knew he was nearby and it was not surprised.
b) Tigers use ambush technique to catch prey
c) Unless this was an old, sick, or injured tiger, Salim's first clue that there was a tiger trying to get him would be a fast charging tiger or a sharp pain from behind.
d) most humans cannot outrun most tigers
e) tigers tend to hunt at twilight and at night, not during the day
f) tigers have attacked people in boats -

"In the Sundarbans Reserve in the swamp lands along the coast of the Bay of Bengal it has been reported that they have attacked fishermen in their boats " !!!
http://www.family-friendly-fun.com/nature/wildcats/wild-cats.htm#Tigers

http://www.szgdocent.org/cats/a-tiger7.jpg

g) the 2 second storm sounds a bit brief


Now, if you tell me that the tiger yelled out "I'll get you next time, Salim ", or turned into a falcon and tried to fly to Salim's boat then I'd know your story to be false.

[silver_ring]

Originally posted by Wanderer
Silver_ring, I answered honestly. I don't know if the story you are telling is true or not.

There are some questionable parts to it:

a) If Salim was singing, then the tiger knew he was nearby and it was not surprised.
b) Tigers use ambush technique to catch prey
c) Unless this was an old, sick, or injured tiger, Salim's first clue that there was a tiger trying to get him would be a fast charging tiger or a sharp pain from behind.
d) most humans cannot outrun most tigers
e) tigers tend to hunt at twilight and at night, not during the day
f) tigers have attacked people in boats -

"In the Sundarbans Reserve in the swamp lands along the coast of the Bay of Bengal it has been reported that they have attacked fishermen in their boats " !!!
http://www.family-friendly-fun.com/nature/wildcats/wild-cats.htm#Tigers

http://www.szgdocent.org/cats/a-tiger7.jpg

g) the 2 second storm sounds a bit brief


Now, if you tell me that the tiger yelled out "I'll get you next time, Salim ", or turned into a falcon and tried to fly to Salim's boat then I'd know your story to be false.

you are talking about "Salim" and the Tiger, :rolleyes:
BUT you did not mention any interpretation for the boat ,
i would like to hear :)

[Wanderer]

Originally posted by amo_l_oman

as i understood you are atheist, how can someone live with the need of making everything rational, everything material, don't you feel bad like that, same to Mony, maybe you both already answered in some past thread
and again: why atheist and not agnostic?
and and and what will be your position with Faith and Braedon?
Thanks

We aren't completely "rational": we spend too much on our boat ( bought after no luck staying pregnant - then "boom" a baby) ; we want a bigger family even though I'm 43 already; we're getting Braedon a passport - just in case there's an opportunity to travel (sadly, we'd hoped for Spain, but now ...); we are careful how much we eat, but went to a Chocolate Festival this past weekend, at New Years we write our wishes on strips of paper and place them in a goblet above the fireplace.

But I don't worry that sounds in the night are from spirits.
I sometimes pretend my (dead) grandparents are watching me when I have to make a decision, but I don't think I'll ever see them again.

I don't differentaite between atheist and agnostic - I'm both, I guess. Maybe there is a god, maybe there are 100 gods. I simply don't know. But why believe something when there is absolutely no evidence - and so many choices ? It seems strange to me that a god that it is claimed created whole galaxies, and millions of stars and planets, and all sorts of wonderful life forms wants people to cut off the tip of the male child's penis :twitch:

... or kill a lamb/goat/camel/son and burn it at an altar ??? :confused:

Faith and Braedon are growing up to question and to learn. I hope each will be knowledgable of the many religions and philosophies that are and that have been. I will certainly help them.

[silver_ring]

Originally posted by Wanderer
We aren't completely "rational": we spend too much on our boat ( bought after no luck staying pregnant - then "boom" a baby) ; we want a bigger family even though I'm 43 already; we're getting Braedon a passport - just in case there's an opportunity to travel (sadly, we'd hoped for Spain, but now ...); we are careful how much we eat, but went to a Chocolate Festival this past weekend, at New Years we write our wishes on strips of paper and place them in a goblet above the fireplace.

But I don't worry that sounds in the night are from spirits.
I sometimes pretend my (dead) grandparents are watching me when I have to make a decision, but I don't think I'll ever see them again.

I don't differentaite between atheist and agnostic - I'm both, I guess. Maybe there is a god, maybe there are 100 gods. I simply don't know. But why believe something when there is absolutely no evidence - and so many choices ? It seems strange to me that a god that it is claimed created whole galaxies, and millions of stars and planets, and all sorts of wonderful life forms wants people to cut off the tip of the male child's penis :twitch:

... or kill a lamb/goat/camel/son and burn it at an altar ??? :confused:

Faith and Braedon are growing up to question and to learn. I hope each will be knowledgable of the many religions and philosophies that are and that have been. I will certainly help them.


you post it over here BY mistake , right :angel:

[amo_l_oman]

Originally posted by Wanderer
I don't differentaite between atheist and agnostic - I'm both, I guess. Maybe there is a god, maybe there are 100 gods. I simply don't know. But why believe something when there is absolutely no evidence - and so many choices ?

Hmmm skipped the penis part old fox :6:
absolutely no evidence, so many choices : what you want exactly?

[IceTea]

Originally posted by Wanderer
I don't consider Muslims to be animals.


I would love it if you could:

a) demonstarte that there is an Allah
b) demonstrate that animals are aware of Allah

Until then, you're just making things up.

How do you want me to demonstrate to you that, humans can't see Allah but we believe in his existance, same as we believe for example in the existance of the soul in our bodies but we can't see the soul. I can bring you evidences from the Quran that animals aware of Allah and declare his glory.

Again same thing with the jinn they do exixt but we can't see them, wonderer can you see your soul?

[Wanderer]

Originally posted by silver_ring
you are talking about "Salim" and the Tiger, :rolleyes:
BUT you did not mention any interpretation for the boat ,
i would like to hear :)

I'm not interpreting anything. I was just telling you some things about tigers. Boats are interesting - I own one myself, but not near as interesting as a tiger chase !! I mean, if I asked an audience - "would you like to hear about a drifting boat or a tiger chasing my friend ?", I'd expect all but the most serious fishermen would prefer the tiger story. Now if it was about a tiger shark, everybody would want to listen !!


Ok, there is a brief, fast-moving storm and a boat appears. Maybe it was drifting downstream anyway. Maybe it was torn loose by the storm as it moved towards Salim. You didn't say much about it.

I'd worry if it was a 50ft luxury cruiser or a speed boat that just showed up. Or if this story was taking place in a desert and a boat just showed up, but probably the best place to find a boat (besides the dealership) is near water - just where Salim found his boat.

In any case, maybe Salim was chased by a tiger, maybe he ran towards a river and right into a fast-moving rainstorm, and maybe a boat came along at just the right moment so that he could escape. It sounds unlikely but possible.

But I cannot determine that it is true.

[Wanderer]

Originally posted by silver_ring
you post it over here BY mistake , right :angel:

I want amo's thread to be for her not me. This is her question for me so I put it here.

[Wanderer]

Originally posted by amo_l_oman
Hmmm skipped the penis part old fox :6:
absolutely no evidence, so many choices : what you want exactly?

I understood that male circumcision is an Islamic practice, though not proscribed in the Quran, but in Hadith.

What do I want ? It's not about wanting, it's about meaningful evidence to go on. I have as much evidence that the Greek Gods rule the universe as Allah or any other god. None of it has proven compelling to me.

[Wanderer]

Originally posted by IceTea
How do you want me to demonstrate to you that, humans can't see Allah but we believe in his existance,

I already understand that you believe in Allah's existance. I don't.



Originally posted by IceTea

...same as we believe for example in the existance of the soul in our bodies but we can't see the soul. I can bring you evidences from the Quran that animals aware of Allah and declare his glory.

Again same thing with the jinn they do exixt but we can't see them, wonderer can you see your soul?

Thanks, IceTea, but I have not already established the Quran to be a credible source of information about the world, so I cannot use its contents as a proof.

I exist. Maybe who I am is a soul, but I don't know that it continues on without my body. When my body dies, it (me) may die.

[silver_ring]

Originally posted by Wanderer
I'm not interpreting anything. I was just telling you some things about tigers. Boats are interesting - I own one myself, but not near as interesting as a tiger chase !! I mean, if I asked an audience - "would you like to hear about a drifting boat or a tiger chasing my friend ?", I'd expect all but the most serious fishermen would prefer the tiger story. Now if it was about a tiger shark, everybody would want to listen !!


Ok, there is a brief, fast-moving storm and a boat appears. Maybe it was drifting downstream anyway. Maybe it was torn loose by the storm as it moved towards Salim. You didn't say much about it.

I'd worry if it was a 50ft luxury cruiser or a speed boat that just showed up. Or if this story was taking place in a desert and a boat just showed up, but probably the best place to find a boat (besides the dealership) is near water - just where Salim found his boat.

In any case, maybe Salim was chased by a tiger, maybe he ran towards a river and right into a fast-moving rainstorm, and maybe a boat came along at just the right moment so that he could escape. It sounds unlikely but possible.

But I cannot determine that it is true.

SO is there any chances to claim that boat created by itself

[amo_l_oman]

But do you feel the need of God or not, cause seems you make a study on religions same as you make it for many other issues, which i really admire. Why bothering yourself?

[MoonChild]

don't you feel bad like that, same to Mony, maybe you both already answered in some past thread
and again: why atheist and not agnostic?
and and and what will be your position with Faith and Braedon?


I know this is Wanderer's thread but since you ask me ... rather than open a thread for me ;) (been there, done that already, wasn't pretty ;) )

I believe that people have souls. I also believe in Diety. Both of these beliefs are based on personal experiences that can otherwise only be explained as some sort of psychosis :p I admit the possibility of psychosis but prefer the alternative ;)

You might choose to call me agnostic, as I don't claim to know anything about this Diety, however, my experiences have been positive :). I am also open to the idea that there is no Diety, as I'm well aware that religion is outside the realm of scientific study -- I believe in a soul and a diety because it pleases me to do so :) I'm also not certain which came first - a self-aware and powerful entity which created the universe, or a universe which contains other intelligent, self-aware beings who are godlike to us.

however, where religion and science intersect (ie testable claims about the physical world, or prophecies), I tend to fall on the side with evidence to support it.

My objection to all the traditional religions that I've studied has been that they attribute some rather ugly attributes to God and the way He supposedly set things up, that they don't make sense, and that they are, in some of their claims, contradicted by easily observable facts.

As far as our children are concerned, Faith is quite comfortable being "a witch like Mom" and is convinced that we both do magic... primarly because sometimes I can make lights go out without touching the switch, and because I throw doubles WAAAY too often in board games ;).

However, like Wanderer said, we are teaching them to THINK and question, and view with suspicion anything that doesn't follow rudimentay rules of logic, is self-contradictory, or requires fear-techniques to maintain a following (ie Hell).

[IceTea]

Originally posted by Wanderer
I already understand that you believe in Allah's existance. I don't.


In other thread I gave you a simple case about the car, this car which you drive did it came from no where or someone work on it and design it?



Originally posted by Wanderer

Thanks, IceTea, but I have not already established the Quran to be a credible source of information about the world, so I cannot use its contents as a proof.


I advise you to read the Quran, and hopfully your solid heart will become softer by the will of Allah.


Originally posted by Wanderer

I exist. Maybe who I am is a soul, but I don't know that it continues on without my body. When my body dies, it (me) may die.

You are wrong the body and the soul two different things, because when the a child created first his body strusture grow then in the 4th month the soul breahed in his body and will be a new human being. Same thing when the person dies his soul will leave his body.

[amo_l_oman]

Thanks Moony :)

[Wanderer]

Originally posted by silver_ring
SO is there any chances to claim that boat created by itself

If your friend found a boat rather than that he saw a floating log and used it as a boat, I am comfortable saying that the boat is man-made. It did not create itself.

If he saw a log and used it as a boat, then the log was only a boat as long as someone saw it as a boat. That it was perceived as a boat and not just a log. In this case, it was a log, turned into a boat by a person who used it that way, then became a log again - all without modification. Still, it didn't create itself.

But let us proceed to the conclusion/point you are itching to state


:)

[Wanderer]

Originally posted by amo_l_oman
But do you feel the need of God or not, cause seems you make a study on religions same as you make it for many other issues, which i really admire. Why bothering yourself?

I think mythology - especially "living" mythologies are very interesting. People believe remarkable things - flying saucers, little green men, grand conspiracies, devils, spirits, gods, evil eyes, numerology, cash-back rebates on computer hardware within the stated 8 weeks, painting eyes on teh bow of their boats, etc.

But so much of what people believe is irrational and unfounded. "Step on a crack, break you mother's back" doesn't seem to work at all !! Holding your breath while opening a door late at night scares away ghouls (Arabic, I learned) - test it, I guarantee that if you hold your breath while opening a door late at night there will not be a ghoul there. See, it's scientifically proven after a thousand trials. But the experiment is flawed as no ghoul is ever evident whether you hold your breath or not, so we can't really say that holding one's breath did it. The real problem is that some of us don't realize that the experiment is flawed and start believeing that breath holding, door opening, and retreating ghouls are somehow all tied together.


I find the "evolution" of mythology to be as interesting as the evolution of life.

So is psychology.

[silver_ring]

Originally posted by Wanderer
If your friend found a boat rather than that he saw a floating log and used it as a boat, I am comfortable saying that the boat is man-made. It did not create itself.

If he saw a log and used it as a boat, then the log was only a boat as long as someone saw it as a boat. That it was perceived as a boat and not just a log. In this case, it was a log, turned into a boat by a person who used it that way, then became a log again - all without modification. Still, it didn't create itself.

But let us proceed to the conclusion/point you are itching to state


:)

you have concluded that boat can not be created by itself, likewise universe and the earth The accurate and organized , HOW it could be exist without any maker,

[Wanderer]

Originally posted by IceTea


In other thread I gave you a simple case about the car, this car which you drive did it came from no where or someone work on it and design it?


Cars are designed and built by humans.



Originally posted by IceTea

You are wrong the body and the soul two different things, because when the a child created first his body strusture grow then in the 4th month the soul breahed in his body and will be a new human being. Same thing when the person dies his soul will leave his body.

Interesting. Would you show me the research supporting this process. I have not heard of medical scientists making this determination.

How is this soul "breathed" into a fetus ? How can they tell when it has happened ?

[Wanderer]

Originally posted by silver_ring
you have concluded that boat can not be created by itself, likewise universe and the earth The accurate and organized

Are you claiming that boatbuilders created the universe ?

How do you know is wasn't the watchmakers ?

How do you know, based on you logic, that different gods are not responsible for making universes and others specialize in making suns/stars and still others make planets, then the B Team comes in and makes the little things like life and rain clouds.

We have evidence (that is, we know) that boats are designed and built for a specific purpose - to float, often to float something else. My boat "floats" up to 12 (smaller) people. That is its primary purpose. Watches are designed to keep time.

The problem with extending this knowledge - of boats, boat designers, and boat builders, and watches, etc., to the universe is that we have not determined that it was designed let alone that it was designed for a specific purpose. Was cheese created so that eventually mold can grow on it ? No. Mold growing on cheese is usually a case of opportunistic life finding resources to exploit. So just because there is a universe (cheese log) doesn't mean its purpose is to support life (mold). It could well just be opportunistic.

We don't have our universe maker in evidence.



Originally posted by silver_ring
, HOW it could be exist without any maker,


Are you asking how a god could exist without a maker too ? :wave: Or do you have to drop your logic and use special rule number X ?

[silver_ring]

Originally posted by Wanderer






Are you asking how a god could exist without a maker too ? :wave: Or do you have to drop your logic and use special rule number X ?
simple if there another GOd with ALLah , i dont think so that you will see all these accurate and organized in this world , and i dont think so that you will be living till this moment dear ;)

[Wanderer]

Originally posted by silver_ring
, HOW it [the universe] could be exist without any maker,

Substitute in another complex entity



Originally posted by silver_ring
, HOW it [Allah] could be exist without any maker,

So now using your logic, you can answer. Remember your rules of logic.


You yourself need to argue that something awesome can exist without a maker. Though we can see into the universe, we still don't have evidence of gods.

[IceTea]

Originally posted by Wanderer
Cars are designed and built by humans.




Interesting. Would you show me the research supporting this process. I have not heard of medical scientists making this determination.

How is this soul "breathed" into a fetus ? How can they tell when it has happened ?

It's breathed into a fetus by an angel who is sent by Allah.

Tell me what happend when a human being die, the first thing you notice that he will stop moving if you raise his hand it will fall down. Same thing with fetus before the soul breathed into him, he is not moving and not considered as a live human being just a body or a pice of meat. But once the soul breathed into his body he will be alive and become a new human being different from other human beings. The soul is one of the secrets of Allah and no one knows about it.

[sanwin25]

Whats the name of this biology textbook they used in your madrassa ?
:gap:

[IceTea]

Don't you believe in the soul?

[sanwin25]

I believe in the soul, just not in the method you described (angels, breathing, etc)

[IceTea]

So where the soul came from, out of nothing? And what is your believe anyway?

[silver_ring]

wanderer if some one give you strong slap in your face , what will you feel?

[MoonChild]

Originally posted by IceTea
Same thing with fetus before the soul breathed into him, he is not moving and not considered as a live human being just a body or a pice of meat. But once the soul breathed into his body he will be alive and become a new human being different from other human beings. The soul is one of the secrets of Allah and no one knows about it.

at what point is the soul breathed into the fetus? at birth?

[silver_ring]

Originally posted by MoonChild
at what point is the soul breathed into the fetus? at birth?

do not you feel the fetus in your stomach :D , in which month did he start moving ??

[MoonChild]

Originally posted by silver_ring
do not you feel the fetus in your stomach :D , in which month did he start moving ??

What does the Quran say about it?

[silver_ring]

Originally posted by MoonChild
What does the Quran say about it?

check it UP ,

[MoonChild]

OK, just to teach you about your own religion, it's 120 days.

Oops.

I hate to burst your bubble, but we saw Braedon by ultrasound at exactly 12 weeks (=84 days). He was quite active, in fact surprisingly so.

By your theory, he should only have been "dead meat" floating quiescently.

[Wanderer]

Originally posted by silver_ring
wanderer if some one give you strong slap in your face , what will you feel?

Bad that I killed him.

[Wanderer]

Originally posted by MoonChild


I hate to burst your bubble, but we saw Braedon by ultrasound at exactly 12 weeks (=84 days). He was quite active, in fact surprisingly so.



That is when we started calling him "Disco Bean" :love:

:D

[IceTea]

Originally posted by MoonChild
OK, just to teach you about your own religion, it's 120 days.



That is what I posted above at the 4th month, the soul is breathed by an angel. So I hope wonderer convinced that the body and the soul are different. My question again to you and to him, can you see the soul?

[Wanderer]

Originally posted by IceTea
So I hope wonderer convinced that the body and the soul are different. My question again to you and to him, can you see the soul?

Convinced by what ? You've presented no proofs.

I cannot see any "souls".

[IceTea]

Originally posted by Wanderer


I cannot see any "souls".

I didn't expect to to be able to see it, but it's in your body and breathed in you at the 4th month.

[Wanderer]

Originally posted by IceTea
I didn't expect to to be able to see it, but it's in your body and breathed in you at the 4th month.

I understand that is what you believe but there is no scientific basis for it and I certainly don't believe it. It is the same as believing that there are angels all around you whispering into your ears and a satan in your butt.

:rolleyes:

[IceTea]

Originally posted by Wanderer
I understand that is what you believe but there is no scientific basis for it and I certainly don't believe it. It is the same as believing that there are angels all around you whispering into your ears and a satan in your butt.

:rolleyes:


Can you tell me then why the fetus doesn't move before the 4th month?

And you are right angels around us writing and each person has a satan even you.

[Wanderer]

Originally posted by IceTea
Can you tell me then why the fetus doesn't move before the 4th month?

I don't know.

Maybe the fetus doesn't have a fully functional nervous system at that point. This is testable.

let's consider that the soul escapes when the baby first cries out. How can we test this ?




Originally posted by IceTea

And you are right angels around us writing and each person has a satan even you.

I understand that this is what you believe, but I don't consider it more than a made up childrens' story to scare them into behaving.

[MoonChild]

Originally posted by IceTea
Can you tell me then why the fetus doesn't move before the 4th month?


see, that's the problem - it DOES move before the 4th month.

I've seen it.

[Wanderer]

Originally posted by MoonChild
see, that's the problem - it DOES move before the 4th month.

I've seen it.

That's the soul, baby !!!


Soul Baby ?

I think if I ever get to see a fetus moving during an ultrasound again, I'll ask the Dr. how old the fetus is and if he or she says anything less than 4 months I'll beat him or her yelling "IceTea" over and over.

That should set those medical people straight. I mean, what can they know ?

[silver_ring]

Originally posted by MoonChild
OK, just to teach you about your own religion, it's 120 days.

Oops.



teach me WHat ? :rolleyes:

[MoonChild]

Originally posted by silver_ring
teach me WHat ? :rolleyes:

I asked when the Quran says the soul is breathed into the fetus, and you told me to look it up. Either you were being rude, or you didn't know the answer.

I chose to give you the benefit of the doubt and treat you as if you were simply ignorant rather than a boor.

My mistake.

[Wanderer]

Originally posted by IceTea
I didn't expect to to be able to see it, but it's in your body and breathed in you at the 4th month.



False Hadith. I don't think this is in the Quran.

[silver_ring]

Originally posted by MoonChild
I asked when the Quran says the soul is breathed into the fetus, and you told me to look it up. Either you were being rude, or you didn't know the answer.

I chose to give you the benefit of the doubt and treat you as if you were simply ignorant rather than a boor.

My mistake.

:rolleyes: :scary:

[Wanderer]

Originally posted by IceTea
Can you tell me then why the fetus doesn't move before the 4th month?

And you are right angels around us writing and each person has a satan even you.

"At nine weeks, the embryo's ballooning brain allows it to bend its body, hiccup, and react to loud sounds. At week ten, it moves its arms, "breathes" amniotic fluid in and out, opens its jaw, and stretches. "

http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/tul/psychtoday9809.html


The fetus DOES move before 4th month. The "strong" Hadith, attributed to Mohammed himself, is flat out wrong.

What probably happened is that superstitious people explained the first movement distinctly felt by the mother as being the moment of life or entrance of a soul. What they couldn't know was that the fetus had been moving all along, but was too small to be felt. Modern technology allows us to see that this is so.
And disprove a "strong" Hadith at the same time.


The suggestion that angels and devils surround you should also be suspect as the existance of neither has been proven and the source is suspect.

I think we all know that we are surrounded by invisible block carrying penguins -

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0618003363.01._PE_PI_SCMZZZZZZZ_.jpg

Prove me wrong.

[Wanderer]

"Between week six and ten, fetal bodies burst into motion, achieving graceful, stretching, and rotational movements of the head, arms and legs. Hand to head, hand to face, hand to mouth movements, mouth opening, closing, and swallowing are all present at 10 weeks (Tajani and Ianniruberto, 1990). By 14 weeks, the complete repertoire of fetal movements seen throughout gestation are already in evidence (deVries, Visser, and Prechtl, 1985). Movement is spontaneous, endogenous, and typically cycles between activity and rest. Breathing movements and jaw movements have begun. Hands are busy interacting with other parts of the body and with the umbilical cord.

From this early stage onward, movement is a primary activity, sometimes begun spontaneously, sometimes provoked by events. Spontaneous movement occurs earliest, probably expressing purely individual interests and needs. Evoked movement reflects sensitivity to the environment. For example, between 10 and 15 weeks g.a., when a mother laughs or coughs, her fetus moves within seconds."

http://www.birthpsychology.com/lifebefore/fetalsense.html

[Seham]

Originally posted by Wanderer
Bad that I killed him. .... ROFL... very interesting discussion in here .... backed up with Wanderer's sense of humour!!;)