Allah

[IceTea]

Got this touch message by email and thought to share it with you all sabla members.

==============================================
You will be happy that you read this all the way through.

As you got up this morning, I watched you, and hoped you would talk to me, even if it was just a few words, asking my opinion or thanking me for something good that happened in your life yesterday. But I noticed you were too busy, trying to find the right outfit to wear. When you ran around the house getting ready, I knew there would be a few minutes for you to stop and say hello, but you were too busy. At one point you had to wait, fifteen minutes with nothing to do except sit in a chair. Then I saw you spring to your feet. I thought you wanted to talk to me, but you ran to the phone and called a friend to get the latest gossip instead. I watched patiently all day long. With all your activities I guess you were too busy to say anything to me.

I noticed that before lunch you looked around, may be you felt embarrassed to talk to me, that is why you didn't bow your head. You glanced three or four tables o! ver and you noticed some of your friends talking to me briefly before they ate, but you didn't. That's okay. There is still more time left, and I hope that you will talk to me yet. You went home and it seems as if you had lots of things to do. After a few of them were done, you turned on the TV. I don't know if you like TV or not, just about anything goes there and you spend lot of time each day in front of it not thinking about anything, just enjoying the show. I waited patiently again as you watched the TV and ate your meal, but again you didn't talk to me.

Bedtime I guess you felt too tired. After you said good night to your family you popped into bed and fell asleep in no time. That's okay because you may not realize that I am always there for you. I've got patience, more than you will ever know. I even want to teach you how to be patient with others as well.

I love you so much that I wait everyday for a nod, prayer or thought or a thankful part of your heart. It is hard to have a one-sided conversation. Well, you are getting up once again. And once again I will wait, with nothing but love for you. Hoping that today you will give me some time. Have a nice day!

Your ALLAH

PS - Do you have enough time to send this to another person?

If you aren't ashamed to do this, please follow the directions.
Not ashamed? Pass this on......only if you mean it.

Yes, I do Love GOD. He is my source of existence and Savior. ALLAH keeps me functioning each and everyday.

Without Him, I will be nothing. Without him, I am nothing, but with Him This is the simplest test . . . if you Love GOD, and are not ashamed of all the marvelous things he has done for you. Send this to your FRIENDS!

[sanwin25]

Very nice, if only you had posted this as it originally appears.

http://www.fishersofman.com/E-mail_From_GOD.asp

[sophis^catrina]

Beautiful letter, :blush: reminds us of how kind, merciful and loving God is.

[amo_l_oman]

Originally posted by sanwin25
Very nice, if only you had posted this as it originally appears.

http://www.fishersofman.com/E-mail_From_GOD.asp

What's the prob, you call Him God, arabs call Him Allah, we call Him Dio, natives call Him Wakantanka: He is the same.

[sanwin25]

Of course.

Only the muslims say that their God is different from the God of the Christians and the Jews and the Hindus and the rest of the world.

[amo_l_oman]

No

[sanwin25]

No, as in Allah and my God are not the same, or No as in Allah and my God are one ?

[amo_l_oman]

Ask Gwanta :tiered:

[sanwin25]

The one who received a revelation during the recent Haj ?

[Enigma]

Only the muslims say that their God is different from the God of the Christians and the Jews and the Hindus and the rest of the world.

Well umm isn't the Hindu's God a statue?

But we do have the same God as Christian's and Jews; at least that's what I believe.

-------

Icey that was a lovely letter.... myself I think about God alot but I sometimes wonder if He really IS listening. I know that's not good but I AM human. :os

[sanwin25]

The Hindus also believe in ONE GOD. The various idols are INCARNATIONS of the same God.

NOBODY believes in statues.

[Enigma]

Originally posted by sanwin25
The Hindus also believe in ONE GOD. The various idols are INCARNATIONS of the same God.

NOBODY believes in statues.

What about Buddhists?

[sanwin25]

What about them ?

They don't believe that statues are God.

[Enigma]

Then why do they worship them?

Besides, you can't say NOBODY because in Ibrahim's times his people thought that their statues were Gods.

[NaBHaN]

Originally posted by Enigma
Then why do they worship them?

Besides, you can't say NOBODY because in Ibrahim's times his people thought that their statues were Gods.

its more like the statues are just icons that represent god , cause they needed some sort of materialistic thing to get them closer and more spiritual. and so the statue is NOT god himself. i always thought of it that way.

[Enigma]

Originally posted by NaBHaN
its more like the statues are just icons that represent god , cause they needed some sort of materialistic thing to get them closer and more spiritual. and so the statue is NOT god himself. i always thought of it that way.

Yes, in the beginning thats exactly what it was. But what happened was with time people forgot that those statues were representing something bigger and saw the statues for Gods. There are many stories about it, Noah's people also worshipped statues... and when Mohammed was born Quraish was worshipping statues as well!

[Arabian Princess]

Sanwin,

all muslims beleive in the same god Christian and Jews (there is only one god :os )

Allah is the name of the God in Islam ..

[IceTea]

Yes there is only one God and there is no son of God. And in Islam Allah has 99 names, each name present the power of Allah.

Allah forgiveth not (The sin of) joining other gods with Him; but He forgiveth whom He pleaseth other sins than this: one who joins other gods with Allah, Hath strayed far, far away (from the right)..

[sanwin25]

Yes there is only one God and there is no son of God. And in Islam Allah has 99 names, each name present the power of Allah.

Please DO NOT try to impose your belief system on me.

Remember, there is no compulsion in religon.

[Wanderer]

Originally posted by IceTea
And in Islam Allah has 99 names, each name present the power of Allah.

Is that 99 names other then Allah, or 99 names including Allah ?


What if I found a god with 101 powers, would you convert to this more powerful god ?

[amo_l_oman]

Originally posted by Wanderer
Is that 99 names other then Allah, or 99 names including Allah ?

????????????????????????????????

[Wanderer]

Originally posted by amo_l_oman
????????????????????????????????

You mean you don't know ?

[amo_l_oman]

Don't get your Q anyway they are the 100 less one attributes of God, meaning the qualities of Allah with which you can call on him.

[MoonChild]

Originally posted by amo_l_oman
they are the 100 less one attributes of God, meaning the qualities of Allah with which you can call on him.

I really don't get how ya'll can accept this perfectly easily, but claim that any OTHER religion that has more than one name or attribute for God must be polytheistic (ie Hindu, Christian, pagan)... :rolleyes:

[amo_l_oman]

They all refer to just one God, don't think you can compare to other religions. Can you make an example pls.
Sorry this is my 3rd Maxalt in 2 days, i might be sound more silly than usual.

[sophis^catrina]

Originally posted by Wanderer
Is that 99 names other then Allah, or 99 names including Allah ?


What if I found a god with 101 powers, would you convert to this more powerful god ?

I have a lot to say on this topic. Though I'll come later and post more. To answer your Question Wanderer... :)


Religious Scholars have related tht Allah has three thousand names. 1000 are only known by the angels, 1000 are only known to the prophets, 300 are in the Torah (Old Testament), 300 are in the Zabur (Psalms of David), 300 are in the New Testament and 99 are in the Qur'an. This makes 2,999 names Names. One Name which has been hidden by Allah (the Arabic name for the Creator) is called Ism Allah al-a'zam: The Greatest Name of Allah.

There may be more in other scriptures, we don't know.

There are neither ninety-nine or one thousand Names of Allah. The exact number of Allah's Names is known only to Him.

If you pick the Christian bible in Arabic, the word for the Creator would be Allah. Whatever you call The Creator; Allah, God, Ahura Mazda, YHWH, it doesn't matter. We may call him with different names, but we agree that He is the Creator of the world and sole Deity.

[MoonChild]

What's Maxalt?

To elaborate on my examples-

Father-Son-Holy Ghost - 3 attributes of One God.

All of the Hindu "gods" and "goddesses" are faces (attributes) of the One Diety - educated Hindus know this even if the ignorant do not.

Modern pagans all believe in One Diety (possibly with the male and female "aspect"), and the 100's of names of historical gods/goddesses which they invoke are seen as symbolizing particular characteristics of the Diety, not as actual multiple beings.

at most, most would recognize a separate being as more like an angel or "hero" - different and more powerful than us humans, but NOT "god".

[sophis^catrina]

^^ That's true people. Listen to her, she's not making this up. You guys need to study more abt different religions. I did, and it strengthend my faith in the Creator (which I prefer to call Allah), because I saw Him in every religion and was further proof of His existence.

[Wanderer]

Originally posted by sophis^catrina
[B...I saw Him in every religion and was further proof of His existence. [/B] ]

So you claim that YHWH/Allah/Baal/El/Vishnu/Ku/Zeus has revealed "himself" in more that the Torah, Gospels, and Quran ?

[silver_ring]

Originally posted by sanwin25
Please DO NOT try to impose your belief system on me.

Remember, there is no compulsion in religon.

he is not forcing you ..just telling you :confused:

[sophis^catrina]

Of course, Allah has sent down all the prophets. And from what they preached stemed the different religions. All were monothiestic, but over centuries, they had changed in the way they worshipped. That's why we have different religions. When u study the different religions you will see a lot of similarities in the way we view abt God. E.g. I remember when I was young I was told that people who followed the Zoroastrian religion worshipped fire. Of course, when I studied it, I realised it was not at all true. Their ideas of The Creator were very similar to us.

Just because something hasn't been mentioned in the Qur'an doesn't mean that other religions haven't been sent down from God ;). E.g. God mentions some prophets, but that doesn't mean that they aren't others. The Qur'an isn't a history book, that lists everything that Allah has done over the years.

[silver_ring]

Originally posted by Wanderer
Is that 99 names other then Allah, or 99 names including Allah ?


What if I found a god with 101 powers, would you convert to this more powerful god ?

its 100 inculding ALlah ....

and if ALLA wants to make it 10000 of cours he 'll did ...

;)

[Wanderer]

Originally posted by sophis^catrina
When u study the different religions you will see a lot of similarities in the way we view abt God. E.g. I remember when I was young I was told that people who followed the Zoroastrian religion worshipped fire. Of course, when I studied it, I realised it was not at all true. Their ideas of The Creator were very similar to us.


Yup.

And there's a perfectly good non-superstitious explanation for these similarities.

Cities are built over previous cities, with some of the old features still evident, so too with religions - build over previous belief systems and with some of the old features still evident too.


Be an "archaeologist of the religions" and dig. You will see how the religions evolved over time; which beliefs were retained and which were discarded. If you stay objective, you will see the imagination of mankind at work (along with a bit of cut-and-paste), with no spirits necessary at all.


:wave:

[Wanderer]

Originally posted by silver_ring

and if ALLA wants to make it 10000 of cours he 'll did ...

;)

If I want Allah to have 10,001 names, I can give some to him too.

Clearly all of those names are just ways for people to try and express their feelings for their god, and as such, are man-made.

What kind of god worries about his titles ? Especially if he's selling himself as the only god in town.


Gods should have better things to worry about.


Isn't his real name YHWH ? Or is that part of the Torah corrupted ?

[sophis^catrina]

I'll answer you just now Wanderer..


Just wanted to post a little something for the Muslims.. that I am sure they'll like... Non-Muslims I would greatly appreciate it if you didn't insult this :)


Concerning the name Allah... if we look closely at both Chrisianity and Judaism we see it in some of the words that they use to describe the Creator.

One of the names that are used to describe the creator, is Elohim. The name Elohim indicates that God is full of creating and governing power and who created all things by speaking His Word. This name of God is used 35 times in the account of creation (Genesis 1:1 – Genesis 2:4) and is the only word used to describe God in this passage.

As to where the name Elohim (Almighty God) is derived. The first theory, is that it is derived from the root word EL , which means mighty, strong, prominent. This word itself is translated to "God" in the Bible 250 times, most often where the great power of God is indicated.

The second theory is that Elohim is derived from the root word ALAH , which means to declare or to swear. In other words, the general meaning of this root is "covenant maker".

In order for one to make covenant, one must have the power, right, and authority to do so. God further establishes His absolute authority in that because there is no authority higher, He swears by Himself.

http://www.gospeltrail.com/Study/God/elohim.htm


If we look at what the word "Hallaluyah!" (which is used to praise God) ..... look at what it is composed of.... H-ALLALuyah!

As for Hinduism.. one of their greatest dieties... is called BRAHMA....the word sounding very similar to ABRAHAM.


---------------

[Wanderer]

Originally posted by sophis^catrina

One of the names that are used to describe the creator, is Elohim. The name Elohim indicates that God is full of creating and governing power and who created all things by speaking His Word. This name of God is used 35 times in the account of creation (Genesis 1:1 – Genesis 2:4) and is the only word used to describe God in this passage.

Elohim is also plural.

"the GODS"



Originally posted by sophis^catrina


As to where the name Elohim (Almighty God) is derived. The first theory, is that it is derived from the root word EL , which means mighty, strong, prominent. This word itself is translated to "God" in the Bible 250 times, most often where the great power of God is indicated.

El
by Dr Anthony E. Smith
Leader of the gods. The first Canaanite god, El dwelt on Mount Saphon, and it was under his aegis that Baal married Anat , defeated the sea god Yam and the death lord Mot, and was installed as the divine bestower of life-giving rain. Represented as an aged man, El wore bull's horns, the symbol of strength, and was usually depicted as seated. It is thought that he corresponded to the Hebrew god, Yahweh . He is also known as El 'Elyon, "God Most High."

http://www.pantheon.org/areas/mythology/asia/judaic/articles.html



Originally posted by sophis^catrina


As for Hinduism.. one of their greatest dieties... is called BRAHMA....the word sounding very similar to ABRAHAM.


Surely there must be more than just similar sounding.

Though, if you're correct in your implication, we must determine which is older - Judaism or Hinduism, to see who borrowed from whom.

[sophis^catrina]

Originally posted by Wanderer
Elohim is also plural.

"the GODS"




El
by Dr Anthony E. Smith
Leader of the gods. The first Canaanite god, El dwelt on Mount Saphon, and it was under his aegis that Baal married Anat , defeated the sea god Yam and the death lord Mot, and was installed as the divine bestower of life-giving rain. Represented as an aged man, El wore bull's horns, the symbol of strength, and was usually depicted as seated. It is thought that he corresponded to the Hebrew god, Yahweh . He is also known as El 'Elyon, "God Most High."

http://www.pantheon.org/areas/mythology/asia/judaic/articles.html




Surely there must be more than just similar sounding.

Though, if you're correct in your implication, we must determine which is older - Judaism or Hinduism, to see who borrowed from whom.


^^ Wanderer I am not an expert on "the root of the word", but my source was a Christian website. Check it out.

There are several theories concerning the plurism of the word.

The word used for God is Elohim which is a plural noun having a masculine ending "im". The very first verse in the Hebrew Bible says "In the beginning "Elohim" created the heavens and the earth". But we perfectly know that Judaism is strictly monotheistic, so how can that be?



(The scholarly theory) Many scholars have suggested, when “ELOHIM” is used of Yahweh Himself, the plural form “Elohim” is an idiom termed plural amplitudinus or plural of majesty , which originally had in view the plenitude of God’s operations in which He acts through others who are energized by His holy spirit.

http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/GodAndChrist/onegod3.html


Not all scholars accept the plural nature of the Elohim.
"Biblical Hebrew occasionally employs something scholars call the 'majestic plural'. In effect it is a plural ending added to a deity's name to confer status or majesty. In the Old Testament the best example is Elohim which does not mean 'the gods' but is rather the god El with the majestic plural im appended."
- David M. Rohl, A Test of Time: The Bible from Myth to History (1993), p. 228


http://www.mystae.com/restricted/streams/scripts/elohim.html


There are several different theories, but then Judaism is a strictly monotheistic religion.

If we look at Islam, Allah decribes Himself, using plural terms, such as "WE". That doesn't mean that there are many goods. This is just to signify status and majesty.

Like I said above there are many theories, and I am not an expert on the subject of the roots of words.

[sophis^catrina]

Originally posted by Wanderer
Yup.

And there's a perfectly good non-superstitious explanation for these similarities.

Cities are built over previous cities, with some of the old features still evident, so too with religions - build over previous belief systems and with some of the old features still evident too.


Be an "archaeologist of the religions" and dig. You will see how the religions evolved over time; which beliefs were retained and which were discarded. If you stay objective, you will see the imagination of mankind at work (along with a bit of cut-and-paste), with no spirits necessary at all.


:wave:


To each their own Wanderer. Although, yes religions have evolved over time and some beliefs were retained, while others were discarded. But then what were the source of these beliefs? Can we differentiate between good and bad if someone hadn’t told us? The Aborigines practiced infanticides and geronticides. But why do a lot of religions say that is wrong? Why do people find cheating and lying wrong? What told u what is wrong and right? What is the source of these beliefs and ideas? You may think that it is in archeological explanation, which has an element of truth in it. But what is the source of all this? I’ve always thought that to believe in a religion and follow strict rules was hard. If people had their own way, they would have abolished any rules that did not satisfy their lust. Why would they bother to have such laws that got in the way of greed, taking advantage of people (the world today is different publicly, but people still practice that discreetly) and satisfying their lust. In the Western world, sex is no longer strictly within the boundaries of marriage. If it were purely archeological why would people come up with laws that restricted their actions? I believe that the religions have a similarity between them, because they are from the same one source. A prophet was sent down, people followed, after some centuries people no longer had faith, corruption set it and therefore their beliefs and ideas changed, another prophet was then sent to change their beliefs and this happened in different regions.

[IceTea]

Originally posted by sophis^catrina


Just because something hasn't been mentioned in the Qur'an doesn't mean that other religions haven't been sent down from God ;). E.g. God mentions some prophets, but that doesn't mean that they aren't others. The Qur'an isn't a history book, that lists everything that Allah has done over the years.

That is ok but don't forget to mention that all prophets up to the seal of the prophets (Mohammed PBUH) came with the same message, which is the true faith of Islam (i.e worshipping Allah only). And as you said there are other prophets which are not mentioned in the Quran, there are only 25 prophets mentioned in the holy Quran.

[silver_ring]

Originally posted by Wanderer
If I want Allah to have 10,001 names, I can give some to him too.

Clearly all of those names are just ways for people to try and express their feelings for their god, and as such, are man-made.

first the 100 names mentioned in quran ..we counting the names which came in quran ...

[IceTea]

Originally posted by Wanderer

Clearly all of those names are just ways for people to try and express their feelings for their god, and as such, are man-made.





Allah's various powers are described by His Names or His Attributes. The entire creation manifests Allah's Attributes called Al-Asma-ul Husna, The Beautiful Names. According to a Hadeeth Qudsi, Allah Taala says:

"I was a hidden treasure. I wished to be known,
therefore I created the creation."

Rasulullah (SAW) said, "Allah has ninety-nine names. Whoever learns, understands and recites them constantly, will enter Jannah."

Almighty Allah does not desire anything from His creation except that He is worshipped. But Allah cannot be worshipped unless one learns to know Him and He cannot be known except if He is remembered. This road has been made easy by Allah Himself. Allah says in the Qur'aan:

"And to Allah belongs the Beautiful Names,
so call upon Him by these Names."

Allah's Names are His lofty and sublime Attributes but they are not His Nature, Person or Essence. Rasulullah (SAW) has prohibited us from reflecting or contemplating on the essence of Allah but allowed us to reflect on His creation. He has encouraged the Muslims to "inspire yourselves with the qualities of Allah."

We should therefore learn, reflect, understand and recite the Beautiful Names and also call upon Allah by means of them.

Some examples of Allah names,


THE MERCIFUL (Ar-Raheem)

Mercy is the patience and forgiveness that Allah holds for us and which flows from Him to all His creation, protecting them, preserving them, guiding them, and leading them to goodness. The Mercy of Allah is for everyone, while His justice and punishment are kept for those who turn away from the goodness. The benefits that we receive from others are because of Allah's mercy to them and us.

THE GREAT FORGIVER (Al-Ghaffaar)

Allah is the Great Forgiver because He covers or hides the sins of His servants. Allah forgives those who seek pardon.

THE DOMINANT (Al-Qahhaar)

It is only Allah that has complete command over all that happens in the universe. He is the absolute Dominant One Who is Greater than any king or leader in this world.

[silver_ring]

Originally posted by IceTea
Allah's various powers are described by His Names or His Attributes. The entire creation manifests Allah's Attributes called Al-Asma-ul Husna, The Beautiful Names. According to a Hadeeth Qudsi, Allah Taala says:

"I was a hidden treasure. I wished to be known,
therefore I created the creation."

Rasulullah (SAW) said, "Allah has ninety-nine names. Whoever learns, understands and recites them constantly, will enter Jannah."

Almighty Allah does not desire anything from His creation except that He is worshipped. But Allah cannot be worshipped unless one learns to know Him and He cannot be known except if He is remembered. This road has been made easy by Allah Himself. Allah says in the Qur'aan:

"And to Allah belongs the Beautiful Names,
so call upon Him by these Names."

Allah's Names are His lofty and sublime Attributes but they are not His Nature, Person or Essence. Rasulullah (SAW) has prohibited us from reflecting or contemplating on the essence of Allah but allowed us to reflect on His creation. He has encouraged the Muslims to "inspire yourselves with the qualities of Allah."

We should therefore learn, reflect, understand and recite the Beautiful Names and also call upon Allah by means of them.

Some examples of Allah names,


THE MERCIFUL (Ar-Raheem)

Mercy is the patience and forgiveness that Allah holds for us and which flows from Him to all His creation, protecting them, preserving them, guiding them, and leading them to goodness. The Mercy of Allah is for everyone, while His justice and punishment are kept for those who turn away from the goodness. The benefits that we receive from others are because of Allah's mercy to them and us.

THE GREAT FORGIVER (Al-Ghaffaar)

Allah is the Great Forgiver because He covers or hides the sins of His servants. Allah forgives those who seek pardon.

THE DOMINANT (Al-Qahhaar)

It is only Allah that has complete command over all that happens in the universe. He is the absolute Dominant One Who is Greater than any king or leader in this world.

well said

[sophis^catrina]

Originally posted by IceTea
That is ok but don't forget to mention that all prophets up to the seal of the prophets (Mohammed PBUH) came with the same message, which is the true faith of Islam (i.e worshipping Allah only).

Don't worry Mr. IceTea :wave: and btw I mentioned that


All were monothiestic , but over centuries, they had changed in the way they worshipped.

Basically risalaht al-tawheed (to non-muslims-monotheism- the submission and belief in the one True, Creator).

[Wanderer]

Originally posted by IceTea
That is ok but don't forget to mention that all prophets up to the seal of the prophets (Mohammed PBUH) came with the same message, which is the true faith of Islam (i.e worshipping Allah only). And as you said there are other prophets which are not mentioned in the Quran, there are only 25 prophets mentioned in the holy Quran.

With this statement, you accuse your God, Allah, of being remarkably ineffective in communicating His message to mankind.

In fact, you are saying that God didn't learn from his first mistake - when the first prophet failed to deliver the message or it got corrupted, so he sent a second - also corrupted, etc., etc., etc.

For thousands of years your god has been sending prophets and they kept screwing things up and He didn't figure it out until 1,400 years ago !

If you believe Jesus and Moses were prophets (though I must ask what Jesus wrote ?), why didn't your god make the Gospels uncorruptable after seeing the Torah corrupted ?

Think.

[amo_l_oman]

Prophets sent before Muhammad pbu, were sent to different countries in different eras.
The last prophet was sent to all mankind to confirm and strengthen God's message.
Who said that prophets failed, couldn't it be people, which is most probable, to fail by refusing their message?
Regarding corruption of the Books, well it would be nice to have a perfect world but God's plans are others: making things easy for us doesn't mean that He is perfect, giving us trials is more helpful for us to understand, and again, many of us fail, not God.

[Wanderer]

Originally posted by sophis^catrina
^^ Wanderer I am not an expert on "the root of the word", but my source was a Christian website. Check it out.

Keeping in mind that I view Christian websites as I view Islamic websites and Zoroastrian websites and Haitian Vodoo websites.



Originally posted by sophis^catrina

The word used for God is Elohim which is a plural noun having a masculine ending "im". The very first verse in the Hebrew Bible says "In the beginning "Elohim" created the heavens and the earth". But we perfectly know that Judaism is strictly monotheistic, so how can that be?

One obvious answer is that the creation story used by pre-Judaic polytheistic Hebrews was simply modified for use with the later adopted monotheistic JHWH cult.



Originally posted by sophis^catrina

(The scholarly theory) Many scholars have suggested, when “ELOHIM” is used of Yahweh Himself, the plural form “Elohim” is an idiom termed plural amplitudinus or plural of majesty , which originally had in view the plenitude of God’s operations in which He acts through others who are energized by His holy spirit.


Elohim (gods) is used because that's how the story was originally written. YHWH was only added later so it isn't reflected in the dialog of the earliest Hebrew stories. It was added, in narrative, by the leader of the JHWH cult - Moses. Who may or may not have actually written the first 5 books of the Torah.



Originally posted by sophis^catrina

Not all scholars accept the plural nature of the Elohim.
"Biblical Hebrew occasionally employs something scholars call the 'majestic plural'.

So it's not consistant, eh ? I wonder if it's only "employed" where convenient.


Originally posted by sophis^catrina

In effect it is a plural ending added to a deity's name to confer status or majesty. In the Old Testament the best example is Elohim which does not mean 'the gods' but is rather the god El with the majestic plural im appended


El again. El the Cannite mountain god. Gods, El and later YHWH. The Jews clearly kept some stories from their polythestic days and must now explain away the vestiges of those old gods in their texts.


Originally posted by sophis^catrina

There are several different theories, but then Judaism is a strictly monotheistic religion

Judiasm is monothestic by definition. From "Moses" on. However it is not the origional religion of those we call the Jews and it contains in its stories and texts evidence of earlier polytheistic and regional beliefs.



Originally posted by sophis^catrina

If we look at Islam, Allah decribes Himself, using plural terms, such as "WE". That doesn't mean that there are many gods. This is just to signify status and majesty.

Vanity is therefore god-like ?

Or is it the we modeled our gods after our kings. Our all too human kings who suffered from vanity. People just figured that if a mere king had it, well then, a god would certainly have it in spades.

[sophis^catrina]

Originally posted by Wanderer
With this statement, you accuse your God, Allah, of being remarkably ineffective in communicating His message to mankind.

In fact, you are saying that God didn't learn from his first mistake - when the first prophet failed to deliver the message or it got corrupted, so he sent a second - also corrupted, etc., etc., etc.

For thousands of years your god has been sending prophets and they kept screwing things up and He didn't figure it out until 1,400 years ago !

If you believe Jesus and Moses were prophets (though I must ask what Jesus wrote ?), why didn't your god make the Gospels uncorruptable after seeing the Torah corrupted ?

Think.


An extremely lengthy reply for you Mr. Wanderer :D :D :D

Perhaps Wanderer, God didn’t want those scriptures to survive and be uncorrupted forever. Maybe He had other ideas. Muslims believe that when He sent out the prophets before Mohd (PBUH), His message (other than the belief in One Diety) was sent out to a Specific Group of people and for a limited time, rather than the Whole of Mankind and for All time.

For example, we believe Jesus (and thus the Bible) was sent out the Jews. The Jews were very materialistic (and no, I am not saying this, because supposedly I have a blind hatred of them, but that it is something that is known. Even one of the greatest classic sociologists, Max Weber writes that in his books). Therefore Allah sent Jesus to them, with laws that concentrated very much on curing this illness and thus very concentrated on the spiritual side (that’s why we see priests and nuns that do not marry, why the Catholic church see sex only for procreation, the Baptist and Calvinists trying to rid themselves of worldly pleasures). This was to create a balance between the spiritual and materialistic side. Of course, Allah recognizes that these laws were not suitable for every group of people, because groups had different weaknesses. That’s why he sent out prophets to different regions, which had different religious laws focusing on curing their weaknesses. After a period of time, people had different problems and concerns, so another prophet was sent down. Also generally people do have a corruptible nature, they do enjoy twisting religion for their own benefit, or those in authority would actually just change it. Allah, if he wished would have protected the Gospels from corruption, but he didn’t and that’s saying something (likely for the reasons that I have just said above). Also he sent out many prophets at one time, because time and distance were very long. The Earth was an extremely big place (as in time and distance travel) then, if a prophet was sent down in a town in Iraq, people would rarely would have heard abt him elsewhere, that’s another reason why Allah could have sent many prophets at one time.

[sophis^catrina]

The Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) came down at a time when the world was just starting to become smaller and when (Muslims believe) was a time very close to judgment day. Allah tells us in the Holy Qur’an that it is a book, for the Whole of Mankind and for All time, and not just limited to the Arabs. Therefore it would be protected from corruption. And it has, if you read the whole history of it being written, collected and being made into many copies and in 1400 years, there is still only one version of it.

Although we believe that Allah, has sent down both the Gospels and Qur’an, we now see the Qur’an does not tell us to just concentrate on our spiritual side, but to have a balance between both our spiritual and materialistic side. For example; it is not acceptable for Muslims to say, I want to very close to Allah and thus I will not marry. Rather, for us to be religious, you will marry and satisfy your emotional and sexual needs (within the acceptable boundaries) [of course, marriage isn’t a must if u know that u can control yourself, but then to have sex with your wife is to us a form of worship. E.g. we believe that if sex outside marriage is haram and Allah writes bad deeds for you, then sex within marriage is something that is greatly encouraged and Allah writes good deeds for you). Sex, although for other religions may be seen for the sole sake of procreation. For us it is also seen for also pleasure. That is why all forms of contraception are halal, except permanent ones and those which give bad side effects. And then of course, u have times when u cannot have sex and have to control yourself, such as when fasting.

Although Allah does have laws to cure the weaknesses of the Arabs. E.g. they used to bury their daughters alive, which was extremely common. A law was sent down saying that this was prohibited. Another is to do, is their illness of being proud and arrogant. The Qur’an again prohibits this, and strongly condemns those who have these traits in their hearts.

[sophis^catrina]

But the Qur’an was sent down to all of mankind and all of time.

So if you look closely into the laws that the Qur’an talks abt; some are open to discussion and what people feel is best in the place and time that they are living in. For example, on the topic of Justice, the Qur’an tell us that Justice must be established. How? This is left to the people to decide, they can discuss abt it and come up with the best solution. They can choose how many different courts there should be, how many judges should be present for a case, etc.

On the other hand though, there are some laws though, which are not open to discussion and are fixed. Such as inheritance. Who inherits how much? Etc this is dealt in detail in the Qur’an.

If however something has not been covered in the Qur’an and the Hadiths, because since Islam is a religion for all mankind and all time, and new situations are surely to come up. Then in this situation Islam tells us to deduce new laws, through two methods. The first, called (Ijtihad), is when the religious scholars, using their brain power and researching the original sources (Qur’an and Hadeeth) all agree on the same law; is it haram, halal, makrouh (allowed but not encouraged), etc etc. Although the religious scholars have studied new cases and have come up with what they think should be the new law, they rarely agree on one thing. That’s why we see the different sects; even the Sunni sect itself has four different schools of thought.

The second, (Qiyas), and the one that is mostly always used, is to measure the new case to an old one. For example, Islam tells us that drinking is haram, because of
it’s bad side effects. Then when drugs, such as heroin came up last century, they had bad side effects too and little use, they became haram too.

[sophis^catrina]

Vanity is therefore god-like ?

If God has created everything, from the tiniest electron to the different galaxies, I saw no reason why he cannot have the feature of pride and call himself, (some examples of the 99 names of Allah, regarding this feature); The Majestic (Al-Mutakabir), The Lord of Majesty and Bounty (Dhul-Jalal-Wal Ikram), The Eternal Owner of Sovereignty (Malik Al-Mulk), The Most Glorious One (Al-Majid), The Powerful (Al-Muqtadir), The Most Exalted (Al-Mutali), etc.

But at the same time(of the 99 names) He also calls himself; The Protecting Friend (Al-Wali), The Loving (Al-Wadud), The Compassionate (Al-Rauf), The Protector (Al-Muhaymin), The Merciful (Al-Rahim), The All Embracing (Al-Wasi), The Appreciative (Ash-shakour), The Forgiving (Al-Afuw), The Guardian (Al-Hafeez), etc.


As for what you said concerning "Elohim", sorry, but I seriously cannot debate with you on the topic, as I said before I do not have much knowledge on that subject.

[Wanderer]

Originally posted by amo_l_oman
Prophets sent before Muhammad pbu, were sent to different countries in different eras.
The last prophet was sent to all mankind to confirm and strengthen God's message.


But the message keeps changing- eye for an eye vs. turn the other cheek.



Originally posted by amo_l_oman

Who said that prophets failed, couldn't it be people, which is most probable, to fail by refusing their message?


How can we say that the people failed when they have a moving target to hit?

Worship many, worship one, Pray to El, pray to JHWH, pray to Jesus, pray 5 times a day to Allah, drink wine, don't drink wine, face Jerusalem, face Mecca, keep this Sabbath, keep that one, God rested, God doesn't rest, God and Angels, Jinn/No Jinn, read it in Hebrew, read it in Greek, read it in Aramaic, read it in Arabic. Vowels and no vowels. Literal and parable. Make an idol, don't make idols, etc.


God has done a terrible job of getting His message to us. Only humans could do so terrible a job.

[amo_l_oman]

Originally posted by Wanderer
But the message keeps changing- eye for an eye vs. turn the other cheek.

No.


How can we say that the people failed when they have a moving target to hit?

God has done a terrible job of getting His message to us. Only humans could do so terrible a job.

You made it as a movie of two hours, it took little bit more and many other situations and people :twitch:

[Wanderer]

Originally posted by sophis^catrina
For example, we believe Jesus (and thus the Bible) was sent out the Jews. The Jews were very materialistic ... Therefore Allah sent Jesus to them, with laws that concentrated very much on curing this illness and thus very concentrated on the spiritual side (that’s why we see priests and nuns that do not marry, why the Catholic church see sex only for procreation, the Baptist and Calvinists trying to rid themselves of worldly pleasures). This was to create a balance between the spiritual and materialistic side.

But the examples you cite - Catholics, Baptists and Calvinists, are not Jews. They would be a by product of God failing when sending Jesus to the Jews. So Catholic Christianity is the result of a failed reformation of Judaism, and Baptists and Calvinists are the result of a failed reformation of Catholicism (clearly removed from the original intent to reform Judaism).

Why give the Jews one set of laws, then later another set ?

Why can Hawaiians and Chinese eat pork, but Jews and Muslims cannot ?

[sanwin25]

Quote:)
Originally posted by Wanderer
But the message keeps changing- eye for an eye vs. turn the other cheek.


No.


How Amo ?

In the OT, it was an eye for an eye. Jesus brought the philosphy of turn the other cheek.

Mohammed brought the eye for an eye back with a vengence ?

Or is it different to what you have been told ?

[amo_l_oman]

Missed you San :bored: Goodnite :angre:

[IceTea]

Originally posted by Wanderer
With this statement, you accuse your God, Allah, of being remarkably ineffective in communicating His message to mankind.

In fact, you are saying that God didn't learn from his first mistake - when the first prophet failed to deliver the message or it got corrupted, so he sent a second - also corrupted, etc., etc., etc.

For thousands of years your god has been sending prophets and they kept screwing things up and He didn't figure it out until 1,400 years ago !



Wanderer all what you said above is WRONG. Sophy gave a good explanation about the issue and that all previous prophets who came before the seal of the prophets (Mohammed PBUH) were sent to a specific group of people at certain time and that is why Allah supplied them with a specific miracles to support them to deliver the message. But it's the problem of their people they didn't listen to their prophets and that is why Allah punished them as stated in the holy Quran.

And certainly We did destroy generations before you when they were unjust, and their messengers had come to them with clear arguments, and they would not believe; thus do We recompense the guilty people. Then We made you successors in the land after them so that We may see how you act.[10:13,14]

And you can read sura No. 11 (Hud) from verse 25 to verse 100 which descripe previous prophets stories with their nations and how Allah punished them for not believing the message.

Finally prophet Mohammed PBUH came as a final messanger and for all mankind to rescue the nation from darkness to brightness and the holy Quran (the truth) revealed to him which is present up to day without corruption.

And thus We have sent you among a nation before which other nations have passed away, that you might recite to them what We have revealed to you and (still) they deny the Beneficent Allah. Say: He is my Lord, there is no god but He; on Him do I rely and to Him is my return.[13:30]

And Allah says also:

That was a people that hath passed away. They shall reap the fruit of what they did, and ye of what ye do! Of their merits there is no question in your case!

PS: Please use approperiate words when talking about Allah and the prophets. Remember sabla rules, have some respect.!!

[sophis^catrina]

Originally posted by Wanderer
But the examples you cite - Catholics, Baptists and Calvinists, are not Jews. They would be a by product of God failing when sending Jesus to the Jews. So Catholic Christianity is the result of a failed reformation of Judaism, and Baptists and Calvinists are the result of a failed reformation of Catholicism (clearly removed from the original intent to reform Judaism).

Why give the Jews one set of laws, then later another set ?

Why can Hawaiians and Chinese eat pork, but Jews and Muslims cannot ?


Well like I said before; people, their situations and circumstances evolve, they aren't the same. Problems that happened 2000 years ago, aren't the same as 1000 years ago. If u read what I said before, I said that each prophet before (Mohammed (PBUH) )was sent out to a specific group of people and for a limited time (E.g. the examples I had given you in my previous posts). It has nothing to do with God failing, situations change and as time goes on people do not believe in religion as strongly as when it first came down. Therefore people do twist religion and perhaps change it.

As for the laws... same thing; it all depends on the situation.... actually what u said, the same thing happened within Islam concerning alcohol. The Prophet (PBUH) got his message, when he was 40 and died when he was 63... which makes it 23 years when he was spreading the message of Islam.... U know during that time, alcohol wasn't always haram :D :6: lol.... The first verse concerning alcohol... says:~

"Oh ye who believe! Approach not prayers with a mind befogged until you can understand all what you say.” (4:43)"

As u can see the first Qur'anic verse concerning alcohol... did NOT say it was haram... but that it was ok to drink it, and to not approach prayers after drinking it (to be fully recovered from it).


Then after a period of time, a second verse concerning alcohol, was sent down:~

"“They ask thee concerning narcotics and gambling. Say: In them is a great debility and some profit for men; but their debility is greater than the profit.” (2:219)"

Again, it wasn 't haram, except that the disadvantages are greater than the advantages of drinking it.


After a period of time (that is AFTER the Prophet (PBUH) had immigrated to Madinah, and therefore over THIRTEEN years into the religion.

The third verse was sent down:~

“Oh ye who believe! Narcotics and gambling, dedication of stones and (divination by) arrows are an abomination - of Satan’s handiwork: eschew such (abomination) that you may prosper.” (5:90)

Alcohol was then made haram.


So u see, over half of the years (13 + /23) that the prophet was spreading religion, alcohol was not haram.


Allah could have made it haram from th start, but he wished to make the situation easier on the Muslims, and he did that through stages. At first, it would have been very hard on the Muslims, coz almost all drank it. So he said that they should not approach prayers when drunk. Practically it made the consumption of wine extremely difficult because the interval between the prayer timings is very small except between the morning and afternoon prayers or between late night and morning prayers.

The second verse, made it very clear, that Allah did not approve of it; that sin is greater that the advantage in case of wine (which made some of the sahaba to completely stop drinking).

The third verse very clearly stated that it was haram.


As u can see there are three verses in the Qur'an concerning alcohol that contradit with each other (applying this to your example of other faiths), this is due to the fact that situations are different and that they evolve. Therefore we should take the latest law (last verse concerning it- that it is haram), which automatically cancels out the first verse.


P.S. Sorry, but I will not be able to answer your questions during weekends, coz im normally extremely busy (writing essays :p), if u have any other questions, inshallah I will able to answer on Monday.

[sophis^catrina]

Edited ... mistake.