i always ask my self what is the thing they going to lose it if they become a muslims?? the religion of islam is the religion of ease and peace ..and its completed religion
and its Quran fulfill all humans needs...and Islam believes in jesus and all prophets ...
what is the thing you going to lose , if you become a muslim??

What's the reason to ask them this ?
If they did not revert yet, means they're not convinced to do such a step.
Obviously nothing to lose if they accept Islam with open heart, everything comes easily if done naturally.

Originally posted by amo_l_oman
What's the reason to ask them this ?
If they did not revert yet, means they're not convinced to do such a step.
Obviously nothing to lose if they accept Islam with open heart, everything comes easily if done naturally.

thank you .. lets listen from non-muslims now :)

It's not about what would I "lose" ... it's that I simply don't believe in a God as described by Judaism/Christianity/Islam, nor in the stories of their holy books that are supposed to be miracles (I see them as myths or morality stories) ...

Originally posted by MoonChild
it's that I simply don't believe in a God as described by Judaism/Christianity/Islam, nor in the stories of their holy books that was my question ... WHY ? whats the thing make you to not believe in them and whats the thing pushing you to believe in what you believe in ?

Originally posted by silver_ring
that was my question ... WHY ? whats the thing make you to not believe in them and whats the thing pushing you to believe in what you believe in ?

hmmm... according to the Quran, Allah made me that way :wink:

the most important part of my decision about these religions is that I figure that God (if there is one), would MAKE SENSE. And any religion that was truly from God, would not contain inconsistencies, falsehoods, errors of logic, and instructions that encourage hatred and division amongst people.

Originally posted by MoonChild
hmmm... according to the Quran, Allah made me that way :wink:

the most important part of my decision about these religions is that I figure that God (if there is one), would MAKE SENSE. And any religion that was truly from God, would not contain inconsistencies, falsehoods, errors of logic, and instructions that encourage hatred and division amongst people.

the space , the moon the sun , the earth , the river , the ocean and seas , the fishs and the animals and the insects ...

still you have doubts that all of the things became from no thing ..

who do u think could make all of the things ..except GOD , look at your self lungs, heart,eyes,tongue,nose,legs arms, breathing ,
whom do think could make this except ALlah ...

Originally posted by silver_ring
who do u think could make all of the things ..except GOD ,

That side-steps entirely my concern about fallacies, internal inconsistencies, and divisiveness found in the holy books.

I can believe in God without all the other stuff :)

Originally posted by silver_ring
who do u think could make all of the things ..except GOD , look at your self lungs, heart,eyes,tongue,nose,legs arms, breathing ,
whom do think could make this except ALlah ...

"Mother Earth, Gaia, produced a son, Uranus, who was the sky. Then they had children. Rain fell from the sky onto the Earth, making plants grow; animals appeared from the rivers and ocean. Next, many strangely-shaped monsters and giants were born. Among these were three Cyclops--each of whom had only one huge eye in the middle of his forehead. Uranus treated them cruelly and banished them to the Underworld. Later, some human-shaped giants, called Titans, were born; they later became the first gods and goddesses."

http://www.entrenet.com/~groedmed/greekm/creation.html


Notice that the Greek's religion accurately describes an association between rain and plant growth - thousands of years before the establishment of Horticulture science programs.

Notice too that the Greek's religion accurately describes that life and later land animals came from the sea - thousands of years before Charles Darwin and his theory of evolution.

Again notice that the Greek's religion accurately describes that dinosaurs - the strangely shaped monsters and giants - ruled the Earth thousands of years before the establishment of Paleontological sciences.

Oh, and all in in the correct order - plants, life from the sea, dinosaurs, giant humans (as told by the Quran).

Coincidence ? No way, the odds are 87.32167903 x 10 (-45) it could have happened without the guidance of Greek gods.


With evidence like this, you should consider converting to the old Greek religion.



:wave:

Originally posted by Wanderer
"Mother Earth, Gaia, produced a son, Uranus, who was the sky. Then they had children. Rain fell from the sky onto the Earth, making plants grow; animals appeared from the rivers and ocean. Next, many strangely-shaped monsters and giants were born. Among these were three Cyclops--each of whom had only one huge eye in the middle of his forehead. Uranus treated them cruelly and banished them to the Underworld. Later, some human-shaped giants, called Titans, were born; they later became the first gods and goddesses."

http://www.entrenet.com/~groedmed/greekm/creation.html


Notice that the Greek's religion accurately describes an association between rain and plant growth - thousands of years before the establishment of Horticulture science programs.

Notice too that the Greek's religion accurately describes that life and later land animals came from the sea - thousands of years before Charles Darwin and his theory of evolution.

Again notice that the Greek's religion accurately describes that dinosaurs - the strangely shaped monsters and giants - ruled the Earth thousands of years before the establishment of Paleontological sciences.

Oh, and all in in the correct order - plants, life from the sea, dinosaurs, giant humans (as told by the Quran).

Coincidence ? No way, the odds are 87.32167903 x 10 (-45) it could have happened without the guidance of Greek gods.


With evidence like this, you should consider converting to the old Greek religion.



:wave:

Still who created mother Earth ??? it came by it self ? so that means there is more than one mother earth ? how can you prove that it came by it self ? :confused:

do u think no body leads all of this things ..and if its do u think he has a companions?
believe me there is the one the only god(ALLah) who made allof the things .... In which way u are thinking ..??

open the holly Quran ..in the computer .. and choose any "sura" you want and open the page and then read vers number 19.....
read what the verse talking about and .. and see

then come and tell us ..OK

Originally posted by METAL PRIEST
Still who created mother Earth ???

Hasn't it always been here ? I assume Gaia created Earth so that she could make life on it. Mothers love to make life. Can you disagree with such a fundamentally obvious conclusion as explained by the Greek religion ?


Originally posted by METAL PRIEST

it came by it self ?

Why not ? Most religions believe that at least one of their Gods/Goddesses always existed. Do you not believe such a thing yourself ?


Originally posted by METAL PRIEST

so that means there is more than one mother earth ?

I don't understand your logic here. Does the existance of a god mean that there could be more gods ? (Personally I find that reasonable).

Originally posted by METAL PRIEST

how can you prove that it came by it self ? :confused:

The proofs seem obvious - just look around you. Is there not an Earth ? Is there not life on Earth ? Didn't you come from your mother ?

And look also how so many things were correctly explained thousands of years before any scientists VERIFIED what was clearly foretold.

Originally posted by silver_ring
believe me there is the one the only god(ALLah) who made allof the things .... In which way u are thinking ..??



Come on, Silver Ring, in what way have you demonstrated the consistantly clear thinking necessary for me to even consider simply "believing" you with respect to Gods, Goddesses, and the mysteries of the universe.

Originally posted by Wanderer
I don't understand your logic here. Does the existance of a god mean that there could be more gods ? (Personally I find that reasonable).

there is only one god Allah ..

man am fed up with this $hit im trying to help you but there is no use .. i dont want you to burn in hell for such a reason..
:bored:

Originally posted by METAL PRIEST
there is only one god Allah ..



Yada yada yada, and how do you "know"?

Because someone told you so. No other reason.

Funny how everyone is ignoring my main point about things making sense :p

Originally posted by MoonChild
Yada yada yada, and how do you "know"?

Because someone told you so. No other reason.

Funny how everyone is ignoring my main point about things making sense :p

so tell me in what do you believe ?


than i'll tell you mine :confused:

Originally posted by MoonChild
Yada yada yada, and how do you "know"?

Because someone told you so. No other reason.



Not always Moonchild, there's also intuition. That's where my personal belief comes from.

Originally posted by Enigma
Not always Moonchild, there's also intuition. That's where my personal belief comes from.

But of course. That's where ALL spiritual belief comes from - of those who actually think for themselves instead of blindly accepting what their elders tell them. Christians, Buddhists, Jews, pagans, New Agers - all rely on their intuition to guide their personal beliefs (which are quite different in the details, but equally fervently adhered to by the believers).

Look at it logically - you want to believe in a greater power. It's either one god, or more than one (them's the only choices...). Logically, if it's one god you believe in, then EVERY religion who believes in one god, believes in the SAME god. Of course, different languages have different names for "god", just like we have different words for "mother" or "sunshine".

for me, I don't believe that what the Quran says comes from God. But the God referred to, named "Allah" in Arabic, is still the same god mentioned in the Bible and Torah (which also contains things I don't beleive came from God).

thus... it's perfectly reasonable for me to believe in the same GOD that you do, without being a Muslim or a Christian (which require more than just belief in God) ... and, in fact, I can call Her Isis if I choose, and as long as I think she is the only diety, it's the same being as Allah or Jehovah :). In fact, I could call her Larry - same guy ;)

Now, we can argue about the attributes of this One God all day long - but really, a person's perception of "God" tend to mirror their cultural bias and personal desires (or fears!), even when that perception is contradicted by their own holy book.

Originally posted by silver_ring
i always ask my self what is the thing they going to lose it if they become a muslims??

What would I lose ?

The tasty pleasures of a BBQ Pork sandwich and a cold beer - OK, 2 beers.

The interest in and ability to follow the ongoing search for mankind's true origins.



Silver-ring, you only remain a Muslim out of fear. Why would I want to add that to my life too ?

2 beers Wandy? Sitting out on your porch, enjoying the warm sun on your face ... I'd gladly gulp down a whole 6 pack! :gap:

Originally posted by Wanderer
What would I lose ?

The tasty pleasures of a BBQ Pork sandwich and a cold beer - OK, 2 beers.

OHH!! even if its allows in islam i dont think so that i 'll drink that dirty drink

The interest in and ability to follow the ongoing search for mankind's true origins. means you love to be unknowing





Silver-ring, you only remain a Muslim out of fear. Why would I want to add that to my life too ? if that truth .. then why i should live in worried life..i 'll give a complaint to our cop united states of america to release me

I would probably be advised to not have a dog as a pet.


Originally posted by silver_ring
OHH!! even if its allows in islam i dont think so that i 'll drink that dirty drink

Oh, so you've tried alcoholic drinks. What did you try - some are better than others ?


Originally posted by silver_ring

means you love to be unknowing

Have you read anything on using genetic information to determine how people are related and to track the historical movements of groups of people ?

Have you reviewed the fossil evidence of the whale lineage and evolution ?

What do you truely know about the moon ?


Originally posted by silver_ring

if that truth .. then why i should live in worried life..i 'll give a complaint to our cop united states of america to release me

You don't leave Islam for 2 reasons. Fellow Muslims would shun you - some would prefer to kill you, and you have a superstitious fear of your sould being ****ed.

Fear, my boy, keeps you as a Muslim.

Why would I ever consider adopting these limitations in my life.

Originally posted by Wanderer




Oh, so you've tried alcoholic drinks. What did you try - some are better than others ?

its enough to see people sleeping in the road after having alcohol,...like ...!




Have you read anything on using genetic information to determine how people are related and to track the historical movements of groups of people ?

Have you reviewed the fossil evidence of the whale lineage and evolution ?

What do you truely know about the moon ? that 'll be interesting to know about nature and moon and whatever ... but not about us " humans" when ALlah created us ..He told us from what did he create us? and untill when we should live ? and who was first man in this earth ?




You don't leave Islam for 2 reasons. Fellow Muslims would shun you - some would prefer to kill you, and you have a superstitious fear of your sould being ****ed.

Fear, my boy, keeps you as a Muslim.

Why would I ever consider adopting these limitations in my life. [/B] Islam gave me every thing what i want and i need ... and i am not thinking to leave it ...,, under islam .. i got family and we live togather ..and my wife did not go naked in the road

any way .. when i think to leave islam i 'll come to u to solve my problem ..:)

Well Said .. Silver Ring ..

so wanderer is afraid to lose his Beer .. what a reason .

so provide me with other reasons . i would like to know ??

im waiting .

The biggest thing one loses.........when becoming muslem..........is the ability to keep an open mind...........

Islam is a complete package......a total mindset.......that pulls you into the collective........

It reminds me of the Borg.......in the Star Trek series.....you lose your individual thoughts and become absorbed into the collective.........

It's great for some............hell for others.......

In all fairness.....it's the same with all religions.......

They all seem to ignore the fact that humans evolved over 42 million years.........and come from the animal world.......we are basically highly evolved killing machines.......with great rational minds.......and most likely we'll wipe each other out fighting over the "One TRUE RELIGION"............

Sayid Farouq Al-Fataki

And how did your mind elaborate this amazing theory Mr. Fatak?

Originally posted by fatak
The biggest thing one loses.........when becoming muslem..........is the ability to keep an open mind...........

Islam is a complete package......a total mindset.......that pulls you into the collective........

It reminds me of the Borg.......in the Star Trek series.....you lose your individual thoughts and become absorbed into the collective.........

It's great for some............hell for others.......

In all fairness.....it's the same with all religions.......

They all seem to ignore the fact that humans evolved over 42 million years.........and come from the animal world.......we are basically highly evolved killing machines.......with great rational minds.......and most likely we'll wipe each other out fighting over the "One TRUE RELIGION"............

Sayid Farouq Al-Fataki


that going to be in ur latest cassette?

I won't take the bait on this one.......

If you have found Islam to be suitable for you and find peace, I wish you well........

Just please allow me the freedom to explore this universe........with my free mind and wonderment(not a word)..........

I just can't accept that an angel suddenly appeared to some guy 1400 years ago and laid it all out for mankind........as if ??????


Salaam

Sayid Farouq Al-Fataki

Now this is really offensive.

Originally posted by fatak
I won't take the bait on this one.......

If you have found Islam to be suitable for you and find peace, I wish you well........

Just please allow me the freedom to explore this universe........with my free mind and wonderment(not a word)..........

I just can't accept that an angel suddenly appeared to some guy 1400 years ago and laid it all out for mankind........as if ??????

Btw.......is this angel so busy..that he could appear to some others as well.........I mean as far as the total importance of the message from God himself.........what's the problem????

Considering that the whole frecking state of the world is at stake........

It's so weak..........even I could could do a better job at managing the universe and keeping my creations safe and secure..........what possible reason is there to see them suffer.........and those that fall from my favor......put them in eternal HELL......what a crock of .sh#T...........

Salaam

Sayid Farouq Al-Fataki
You heart is printed Black .. burn in hell mate.

I am sorry my views are offensive......

I will delete the part.......which you may find offensive.......it seems anything directly challenging is Taboo.....

But in reality.........how are people with different views offensive to Islam? and should they burn in hell mate.?????

You created your version of hell, and it's NOT for me....sorry.

The topic question is what is the thing you going to lose , if you become a muslim??

I reject the idea that any religion is right over others........or that Islam is superior.

I reject the idea that people suffer because of some unforseen power........that is testing their faith.......

BTW......black is beautiful......I think you should say "dark heart".........meaning lack of light.........

I imagine you should know this????

Sayid Farouq Al-Fataki

It's so weak..........even I could could do a better job at managing the universe and keeping my creations safe and secure..........what possible reason is there to see them suffer.........and those that fall from my favor......put them in eternal HELL......what a crock of .sh#T...........

Pray tell me, HOW would you do it?!

Originally posted by amo_l_oman
Now this is really offensive.

? What is so offensive?

Originally posted by silver_ring
its enough to see people sleeping in the road after having alcohol,...like ...!

Yes, I see. You speak without experience. Religion can be like alcohol too. I see lots of people who are retarded by alcohol and/or religion.



Originally posted by silver_ring

that 'll be interesting to know about nature and moon and whatever ... but not about us " humans" ...

Yes, I see. "Nature and Moon", but not about humans. No, you don't want to know about humans. That is the danger of a closed mind. YOu just put your hands over your ears and pray loudly so you don't hear the truth.


Originally posted by silver_ring

Islam gave me every thing what i want and i need ... and i am not thinking to leave it ...,, under islam .. i got family and we live togather ..and my wife did not go naked in the road

How nice to be perfectly happy and content. People will see this in you and will ask you how to be like you and then you can tell them your secret. The when you get to the part about fire beings, split Moons and Neil Armstrong (or any other well0known person) converting to Islam they will see for themselves that you're so misguided and clueless

Where DID your wife go naked ?


Originally posted by silver_ring


any way .. when i think to leave islam i 'll come to u to solve my problem ..:)

I don't wish you to leave Islam - because that would be wishing for your fellow Muslims to kill you.

Originally posted by METAL PRIEST

so wanderer is afraid to lose his Beer .. what a reason .

so provide me with other reasons . i would like to know ??

im waiting .

Beer, my friend, is a real thing. It's not a fable, it's not evil, and it's not getting in my way. Let's put it this way, I rank beer higher than religion. I rank eating pork higher than religion. I rank having a pet dog higher than religion. I rank the investigation and exploration of nature higher than religion. I rank my freedon and time higher than religion. I rank coffee higher than religion. I rank portraits and art higher than religion. I rank swimming at the beach with men and women higher than religion. I rank playing with Legos with my children higher then religion.

Religion isn't very important to me except where I learn about all of the mythologies people have developed (Islam being one) to explain the unknown and to formalize customs, and when it adversely impacts me - like laws preventing certain stores from opening on someone's Sabbath. Children believe in fairies, elves, boogymen, and other invisible beings because they lack knowledge and experience. I don't understand why some people never leave that childish stage - they just switch to angels, gods, demons, Jinn, etc.

You are a good example of why I wouldn't convert. You don't display any meaningful reasoning capabilities.

Why would I adopt superstitions and surrender my ability to reason (and my reading comprehension) ?

burn in hell..

:bored:

Originally posted by METAL PRIEST
burn in hell..

:bored:


Whose - Christian, Jewish, Islamic, Buddhist ?

Will it be like Hades or Sheol or Gehenna or Tartaroo or ... a Martini bar ?

Every cult makes up its own "Hell" with which to coerce believers.

:wave:

Originally posted by Wanderer
Whose - Christian, Jewish, Islamic, Buddhist ?

Will it be like Hades or Sheol or ... a Martini bar ?

Every cult makes up its own "Hell" with which to coerce believers.

:wave:

so where do you think will you go after your death ?

Just a question Wandy? answer pleas.

Originally posted by METAL PRIEST
so where do you think will you go after your death ?

Just a question Wandy? answer pleas.


I'm not sure "I" go anywhere. As far as I can tell my mind dies with my body.

It would be nice if "I" continued somehow, but that's just a want and not something that is in any way supported by any evidence.

I think that we just die; as a fish dies, as a cat dies, as any living thing eventually dies.

Seems sad, but that is part of life.

Originally posted by MoonChild
? What is so offensive?

What he wrote about angel Gabriel and other things, was not necessary to delete, i did not ask for that: is still in Metal Priest quote.

Originally posted by Wanderer
I'm not sure "I" go anywhere. As far as I can tell my mind dies with my body.

It would be nice if "I" continued somehow, but that's just a want and not something that is in any way supported by any evidence.

I think that we just die; as a fish dies, as a cat dies, as any living thing eventually dies.

Seems sad, but that is part of life.

so thats what you do believe in .. so Wandy=Animal ... :bored:

dont you believe that there is soul in your body ? how do you define your soul ? where will it go ?
i know you was right when you said my mind dies and so my body.
but your soul will not die... like your body .


any ways forget about what i said.. its your own path.
:bored:

Fare Well English Sabla
Few more days and i will disappear.
A Deeper Kind Of Slumber


Surely you don't mean that ! Be still my beating heart !

Originally posted by silver_ring
i always ask my self what is the thing they going to lose it if they become a muslims?? the religion of islam is the religion of ease and peace ..and its completed religion
and its Quran fulfill all humans needs...and Islam believes in jesus and all prophets ...
what is the thing you going to lose , if you become a muslim??

The reason why many non-muslims won't become muslims is because of people whom want to force islam everywhere. When a muslims comes tells a non-muslim that islam is the only true religion. When a muslim tells a non-muslim that Islam is the only perfect religion while their religion is either corrupted or not completed. When a muslim tells a non-muslim that ONLY muslims will enter heaven as the Quran had stated that.

Now, I don't care what the Quran said about all the stuff mentioned above. You can not expect a non-muslim to become muslim when you tell them the stuff from above. You can not expect a non-muslim to become muslim when you tell them "What are you loosing if you became muslim as it is the religion of ease and peace ..and its completed religion".

Do you expect a non-muslim to be saying "Wow, you are **** right. Islam is truly the religion which I need. I will convert now". Put yourself in a non-muslim shoes, someone who truly believes in Christianity or Judaism, or budism, or hindusim, or whatever. Do you think that is really a convincing way?

Islam did not teach us to make non-muslims become muslims with either force or telling them "Join us to live in heaven". Islam told us to spread Islam's words which are ofcourse telling people about Islam. The human rights it gave. The women rights it gave. Even the animal rights which it gave. Tell them the real goodies of Islam.

Tell them "Why Islam is perfect", not "That Islam is perfect". Think about the "Why" and "That" difference.

I agree with Don.

Lead by example and, if your example is good, people will follow and convert to your religion. But should you have to resort to trickery or force, you have already denounced your religion as false.

"Nothing succeeds like success"

And sadly, SR, guana and teabag surely lead by their bad example.

Originally posted by Wanderer
I'm not sure "I" go anywhere. As far as I can tell my mind dies with my body. i hope that u are muslim .. of course your answer would be different

It would be nice if "I" continued somehow, but that's just a want and not something that is in any way supported by any evidence. heaven is better than earth .. cuz who created earth is the same one who created heaven .. and HE said heaven is much much better than earth ..

I think that we just die; as a fish dies, as a cat dies, as any living thing eventually dies for that , islam had come.

Originally posted by sanwin25
And sadly, SR, guana and teabag surely lead by their bad example.

What bad examples you are talking about. We are not forcing non-muslims to become muslims we know that it's only Allah who guide people to his path the straight path.

Your bad example is for others to determine.

You might think you are goodness personified.

We beg to differ.

Originally posted by silver_ring
i hope that u are muslim .. of course your answer would be different.


An answer, true, but probably the wrong answer.

I don't see that as an improvement.

Originally posted by Wanderer
An answer, true, but probably the wrong answer.

I don't see that as an improvement.

if you dont care about religions so why do you always love to talk about it ?

The current probes on Mars have analysed rock samples. Many scientists have stated that the geological structure indicates only one possibility: that water existed on Mars at some time in the past. Where there is water, there is life.

Is this groundbreaking scientific revelation mentioned in the Qur'an by any chance?

Originally posted by Shakoosh Kabir
The current probes on Mars have analysed rock samples. Many scientists have stated that the geological structure indicates only one possibility: that water existed on Mars at some time in the past. Where there is water, there is life.

Is this groundbreaking scientific revelation mentioned in the Qur'an by any chance?

"Glory to Allah, Who created in pairs all things
that the earth produces, as well as their own (human) kind, and
(other) things of which they have no knowledge." [Qur’an 36:36]

The Qur’an here says that everything is created in pairs, including humans, and things that the humans do not know at present and may discover later.

so quran encourage us to study and discover,


if you want to go through and learn more from islam

http://www.dar-al-talaba.net/Specials/Quran_and_Modern_Science.html#Biology

Originally posted by silver_ring
if you dont care about religions so why do you always love to talk about it ?


I do love to learn about religion.


Perhaps for the same reason Doctors study disease.

Originally posted by silver_ring
so quran encourage us to study and discover,


Not always.

Sura 5:

101. O ye who believe! Ask not questions about things which, if made plain to you, may cause you trouble. But if ye ask about things when the Qur'an is being revealed, they will be made plain to you, Allah will forgive those: for Allah is Oft- forgiving, Most Forbearing.

102. Some people before you did ask such questions, and on that account lost their faith.


What this says is that you must ask the Prophet the troubling question as he reveals the Quran to get some answers, otherwise you must not ask those questons - ever - doing so has caused others to walk away from Islam when they say teh answer.

Originally posted by Wanderer
Not always.

Sura 5:

101. O ye who believe! Ask not questions about things which, if made plain to you, may cause you trouble. But if ye ask about things when the Qur'an is being revealed, they will be made plain to you, Allah will forgive those: for Allah is Oft- forgiving, Most Forbearing.

102. Some people before you did ask such questions, and on that account lost their faith.


What this says is that you must ask the Prophet the troubling question as he reveals the Quran to get some answers, otherwise you must not ask those questons - ever - doing so has caused others to walk away from Islam when they say teh answer.



there are some Questions, brain of the human could not understood it nor accepted it ,such" bout souls ? about angels , about hell , about heaven, ect.. [b]except what the Quran and the sunna had given some infromations about it and mentioned in them .. other wise . its "hram" not allowed in islam to ask , you have a limited thoughts to think , when you exceeded your limited , you might come crazy, ;)

It doesn't say "go crazy"

It says "lost their Faith"


What it says is, "truth be told, you might stop believing"


The Quran and I are in agreement.

Originally posted by Wanderer
It doesn't say "go crazy"

It says "lost their Faith"

yeah exactly and when you lose your Faith , you will not believe in ALLah And then you will not worship HIM any more , so therefor you 'll lose your ALlah 's mercy .. then you will be the loser at the end