Accepting the first 5 books of Moses/ The Old Testament as historically accurate, who are the first non-Jews ? Where do gentiles come from ?

Does anyone know ?

A flood; 4 women, 4 men; and a boatload of animals appears to be the starting point.

Note: I fully expect to see this explored as a potential reality-based TV program this season.

Non-Jews are referred to as benei Noach--"Children of Noah," because after the Flood, all mankind descend from Noah.

Jews are referred to as benei Yisrael--"Children of Israel." Israel is Jacob's other name. All descendants of Jacob are Jewish.

This is with the exception of those converted according to Jewish Law, who are no less Jewish than other Jews. Jewishness is essentially determined by the Torah, not lineage.

The Torah says that lineage through the mother or valid conversion makes one a Jew, obligated to observe the laws for Jews. Everyone else is obligated to adhere to the Noahide Code, the Creator's Laws for all mankind.

Originally posted by monotheism
Non-Jews are referred to as benei Noach--"Children of Noah," because after the Flood, all mankind descend from Noah.

Jews are referred to as benei Yisrael--"Children of Israel." Israel is Jacob's other name. All descendants of Jacob are Jewish.




Interesting. So according to your traditions, mankind was created "Gentile" and only one family branch became Jewish - generations later, only then creating the Jew - Goyem schism.

Thru Jacob. Wasn't Jacob a bit of a trickster ?

Anyway, so the Jewish god is considered the god of all mankind. So why would the following statement be necessary when giving the lands to Jacob ?


Genesis 28:13 "And, behold, the LORD stood above it, and said, I am the LORD God of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac: the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed; "

Why was it necessary to proclaim himself god of both men ? At that time wouldn't it have been clearly understood that there was only the one "Jewish" god ?


Things that could be scientifically tested here would concern the Y chromosome (inherited father to son). If all living humans are descended from Noah, then we should be able to find evidence to suggest that there would be a convergence in the number of Y chromosomes to 1 (or 4, if one argued that all 3 sons had immediate mutations on their Y chromosome).

Is there any such evidence ?

Originally posted by monotheism

Everyone else is obligated to adhere to the Noahide Code, the Creator's Laws for all mankind.

So say the Jews. Historically, who has followed the Noahide code ?

Thru Jacob. Wasn't Jacob a bit of a trickster?

no
Esau had promised the firstborn birthright to Jacob, but he wouldn't tell Isaac that, and Jacob knew it

If I am dealing with someone known to be dishonest, who will use my honesty against me, and trample all over me, as self-respecting person I will make an exception. As it says in Psalms: "with a crooked person, deal slyly."

Why was it necessary to proclaim himself god of both men? At that time wouldn't it have been clearly understood that there was only the one "Jewish" god?

True, G-d is the Creator of all humankind, but He has an even closer, special relationship with the Jewish nation, as related at length in the Torah. This relationship began with the forefathers, and it is this relationship that is referred to in these verses.

Originally posted by monotheism
no
Esau had promised the firstborn birthright to Jacob, but he wouldn't tell Isaac that, and Jacob knew it

Promised in exchange for food.

Let's play "count the lies", Monotheism.

Genesis 27:

19 Jacob said to his father, "I am Esau your firstborn. I have done as you told me. Please sit up and eat some of my game so that you may give me your blessing."
20 Isaac asked his son, "How did you find it so quickly, my son?"
"The LORD your God gave me success," he replied.
21 Then Isaac said to Jacob, "Come near so I can touch you, my son, to know whether you really are my son Esau or not."
22 Jacob went close to his father Isaac, who touched him and said, "The voice is the voice of Jacob, but the hands are the hands of Esau." 23 He did not recognize him, for his hands were hairy like those of his brother Esau; so he blessed him. 24 "Are you really my son Esau?" he asked.
"I am," he replied. "


I count 4; twice claiming to be Esau, claiming goats of his flock were hunted game, claiming success at hunting was through God.

Originally posted by monotheism

If I am dealing with someone known to be dishonest, who will use my honesty against me, and trample all over me, as self-respecting person I will make an exception. As it says in Psalms: "with a crooked person, deal slyly."

Clearly this is how we should deal with Jacob. Tell me, Monotheism, are the sins of the father "visited" upon the children here ? Jacob being the father of the Jews/Israelis.


Originally posted by monotheism

True, G-d is the Creator of all humankind, but He has an even closer, special relationship with the Jewish nation, as related at length in the Torah. This relationship began with the forefathers, and it is this relationship that is referred to in these verses.

You have mixed up two different things - the gods who created everything and the mountain god, YHWH, adopted by the Jews in exchange for freedom from the Egyptians.

Promised in exchange for food

so WHAT
who CARES what it was in exchange for?!

the point is that when it was made, it was a binding agreement, and Jacob knew that ESau had no intention of sticking to it, and he stood up for his rights and refused to allow himself to be taken advantage of

Clearly this is how we should deal with Jacob

no, about Jacob the verse says the opposite: "And Yaakov was an 'ish tam' (a man who was 'straight' and 'simple') who dwelt in the tents" [Genesis 25:27].

Though that was his nature, on the urging of his mother Rebecca, he acted contrary to that nature in order to claim his own deserved blessing.

check out this page: http://www.torah.org/learning/ravfrand/5757/toldos.html

You have mixed up two different things

no I haven't--I utterly repudiate any belief in any deities other than the One G-d of the Torah

and what utterly unsupported assertions you make

though if you want to be polytheistic, that's your choice

especially since, from your posts, you appear to be utterly atheistic

Originally posted by monotheism

Though that was his nature, on the urging of his mother Rebecca, he acted contrary to that nature in order to claim his own deserved blessing.

So you defend his lying to his father in order to obtain his blessing? A blessing obtained through deciet.

Surely according to other Jewish laws that is an offense punishable by death ?


Originally posted by monotheism

no I haven't--I utterly repudiate any belief in any deities other than the One G-d of the Torah

Well, that was the deal wasn't it. In exchange from freedom from the Egyptians, and a promised land, the Hebrews would henceforth worship the single mountain god - YHWH, as their only god. They were exposed to this "one god" idea during the reign of Pharaoh Akhenaten (Amenhotep IV, 1364-1347 B.C.).

That's why Moses was so darned mad when he came down from god's home (Mt. Sinai ?) and found that the Hebrews had gone back to what they'd always done - worshipping many gods and graven images.

Originally posted by monotheism
and what utterly unsupported assertions you make


The Birth and Evolution of Judaism:
National Monolatry and Monotheism
(~1300-1000 BC)

According to Hebrew history narrated in Exodus , the second book of the Torah, the Hebrews became a nation and adopted a national god on the slopes of Mount Sinai in southern Arabia.

The flight from Egypt itself stands as the single greatest sign from Yahweh that the Israelites were the chosen people of Yahweh; ... It is also the crucial point in history that the Hebrews adopt Yahweh as their national god.

Hebrew history is absolutely silent about Hebrew worship during the sojourn in Egypt. A single religious observance, the observation of Passover, originates in Egypt immediately before the migration. This observance commemorates how Yahweh spared the Hebrews when he destroyed all the first born sons in the land of Egypt. The Yahweh religion itself, however, is learned when the mass of Hebrews collect at Mount Sinai in Midian, which is located in the southern regions of the Arabian peninsula. During this period, called the Sinai pericope, Moses teaches the Hebrews the name of their god and brings to them the laws that the Hebrews, as the chosen people, must observe. The Sinai pericope is a time of legislation and of cultural formation in the Hebrew view of history. In the main, the Hebrews learn all the cultic practices and observances that they are to perform for Yahweh.

Scholars are in bitter disagreement over the origin of the the Yahweh religion and the identity of its founder, Moses. While Moses is an Egyptian name, the religion itself comes from Midian. In the account, Moses lives for a time with a Midianite priest, Jethro, at the foot of Mount Sinai. The Midianites seem to have a Yahweh religion already in place; they worship the god of Mount Sinai as a kind of powerful nature deity. So it's possible that the Hebrews picked up the Yahweh religion from another group of Semites and that this Yahweh religion slowly developed into the central religion of the Hebrews. All scholars are agreed, however, that the process was slow and painful. In the Hebrew history, all during the migration and for two centuries afterwards, the Hebrews follow many various religions unevenly.

The Mosaic religion was initially a monolatrous religion; while the Hebrews are enjoined to worship no deity but Yahweh, there is no evidence that the earliest Mosaic religion denied the existence of other gods. In fact, the account of the migration contains numerous references by the historical characters to other gods, and the first law of the Decalogue is, after all, that no gods be put before Yahweh, not that no other gods exist. While controversial among many people, most scholars have concluded that the initial Mosaic religion for about two hundred years was a monolatrous religion. For there is ample evidence in the Hebrew account of the settlement of Palestine, that the Hebrews frequently changed religions, often several times in a single lifetime.


For a few centuries, Yahweh was largely an anthropomorphic god, that is, he had human qualities and physical characteristics. The Yahweh of the Torah is frequently angry and often capricious; the entire series of plagues on Egypt, for instance, seem unreasonably cruel.

But there are some striking innovations in this new god. First, this god, anthropomorphic or not, is conceived as operating above and outside nature and the human world. The Mosaic god is conceived as the ruler of the Hebrews, so the Mosaic laws also have the status of a ruler. The laws themselves in the Torah were probably written much later, in the eighth or seventh centuries.


http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/Judaism/Monolatry.html

Originally posted by monotheism
though if you want to be polytheistic, that's your choice

especially since, from your posts, you appear to be utterly atheistic

Polytheism is a fact, in that through the ages mankind has believed in and worshipped many, many gods. Whether Thor, Apollo, Jehovah, Kokopelli ( a trickster - like Jacob), Yum Kaax, and Ku actually exist ....

Yup, it's my choice whether to believe in one, many, or none.

Like the Jews, I could choose one out of the many as my champion God and some sort of land for sacrifice and ritual deal would be brokered.

I could create my own new god - again.

I could rename an old god - there is evidence that this happened in founding Islam.

I could change the nature of a known god - as the Christians did.


I have chosen instead to look critically at any and all. So far, they all bear the unmistakable signs of human imagination and invention.

So you defend his lying to his father in order to obtain his blessing? A blessing obtained through deciet. (sic)

As explained, when dealing with someone known as a trickster, Jacob was forced to use inconventional means. When Isaac realised Jacob's actions, he accepted them, reaffiriming his blessing, as the verse says in Isaac's address to Jacob: "and he (Jacob) should also be blessed."


Well, that was the deal wasn't it. In exchange from freedom from the Egyptians, and a promised land, the Hebrews would henceforth worship the single mountain god - YHWH, as their only god. They were exposed to this "one god" idea during the reign of Pharaoh Akhenaten

nonsense
the first Jew, Abraham, worshipped the One G-d, and preached this belief to everyone. His child Isaac and his grandson Jacob followed in his footsteps. All of Jacob's children, the tribes, continued this belief.

That's why Moses was so darned mad

Moses was upset that the Jews were sinning, period. Your inferences are unsupported.

Hebrew history is absolutely silent about Hebrew worship during the sojourn in Egypt.

indeed; the Jews had not yet been chosen as a people and given the 613 Commandments


there is ample evidence

again--nonsense
all the assertions in the article you post are utterly unsubstantiated conjecture

Yahweh was largely an anthropomorphic god, that is, he had human qualities and physical characteristics. The Yahweh of the Torah is frequently angry and often capricious

according to traditional Jewish teaching, for man's benefit, G-d reveals Himself to man in a way that man can relate, but that does not limit Him in His Essence

the entire series of plagues on Egypt, for instance, seem unreasonably cruel

it was measure for measure, considering the Egyptians' cruelty to the Jews

is conceived as operating above and outside nature and the human world

yup!
absolutely

Polytheism is a fact

yeah, it's a fact that some people believe in it
real convincing argument you got there :rolleyes:

Originally posted by monotheism
As explained, when dealing with someone known as a trickster, Jacob was forced to use inconventional means.

I bet you'd be good at palming cards too.


Who thinks that Isaac was a trickster ? Isaac was in fact the victim of a fraud by the trickster - Jacob.

Or are you suggesting that it's OK to defraud a 3rd party in dealing with a trickster as you suggest Jacob did to Isaac in dealing with Esau ?


By the way, which Rabbis do you side with - those who believe Esau's kiss was sincere or those who believe it was insincere ?

Perhaps one must connect the dots.

Originally posted by monotheism

nonsense
the first Jew, Abraham, worshipped the One G-d, and preached this belief to everyone. His child Isaac and his grandson Jacob followed in his footsteps. All of Jacob's children, the tribes, continued this belief.


Moses was upset that the Jews were sinning, period. Your inferences are unsupported.



"As far as the religion of the early Hebrews are concerned, it is generally believed that it had nothing to do with the Yahweh cult which is introduced by Moses, for Exodus asserts that Moses is the first to hear the name of god, Yahweh. The Hebrew accounts of the patriarchs generally use the term "Elohim" (God), ..."

http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~dee/HEBREWS/HEBREWS.HTM

I believe Elohim can also mean "gods" - plural.

So Abraham may have worshipped Elohim (plural) or perhaps just one of them. But there is no evidence that it was the one named by Moses. It would be easy enough to deliberately (or inadvertantly) make a substitution and/or go from general (god/gods) to specific (YHWH) in a thousand year oral tradition.


Speaking of unsupported inferences, is there any evidence of:

the Plagues Moses calls down on the Egyptians ?

Egyptians chasing Moses and gang out of Egypt ?

a parting of the Reed Sea and losses to the Egyptian army ?


"...we have almost no account whatsoever of the Hebrews in Egypt, even in Hebrew history. For all the momentousness of the events of the migration for the Hebrews and the dramatic nature of the rescue, including plagues and catastrophes raining down on Egypt, the Egyptians do not seem to have noticed the Hebrews or to even know that they were living in their country. While we have several Egyptian records of foreign groups during the New Kingdom, they are records of actively expelling groups they feel are threatening or overly powerful. The Hebrews never appear in these records, nor do any of the events recounted in the Hebrew history of the event."

ibid


It would appear that some liberties were taken and a people's history embellished a bit. While they were at it, the authors added the part that they were "god's" (now singular and specific) chosen people and they named that god.

"... these stories were told and retold among the Hebrews as the most important events of their history. For in the events leading up to and involving the migration from Egypt, Yahweh proved once and for all that he would use and protect the Hebrews as the people, and the only people, selected by Yahweh."

"... Hebrew religion became the Yahweh religion"

ibid



One explanation (yours) requires mysterious forces, angry gods, and unlikely events.

Another (mine) requires only that the Hebrews, like all other ancient peoples, developed a mythology to explain their place in the world. Over time it has been modified to incorporate new information - stories from others' traditions and myths, as well as embellishments to make them distinct from other people and so more cohesive and likely to survive (common ancestor, common god, etc.).


'Unsupported" and "nonsense" are words that naturally gravitate to your explanation rather than mine.

Exodus

18:5 Jethro came together with [Moses'] wife and sons to the desert, where Moses was staying, near God's mountain.

18:11 Now I know that God is the greatest of all deities(gods) . Through their very plots, He rose above them.'

Atah yadati ki-gadol Adonay mikol-ha'elohim ki vadavar asher zadu aleyhem.

http://bible.ort.org/books/torahd5.asp?action=displaypage&book=2&chapter=18&verse=10&portion=17


God's mountain home. A declaration that this god is the greatest of the gods !!


Do either of these - a mountain abode and a ranking among the gods fit well with your understanding of your god ?

I believe Elohim can also mean "gods" - plural.

check this out:

http://www.chabad.org/library/article.asp?AID=2705

Or are you suggesting that it's OK to defraud a 3rd party in dealing with a trickster as you suggest Jacob did to Isaac in dealing with Esau?

It wasn't defrauding. Isaac wanted to give the inheritance to Esau because he thought that Esau deserved it. Had he known that Esau did not deserve it, as Esau regularly indulged in murder, promiscuity and idolatry, Isaac would surely have chosen to give the blessing to Jacob alone, the truly deserving recipient of the firstborn blessing.

Rebecca, however, knew that Esau was utterly undeserving, but Isaac didn't know this, as Esau deceived his father by acting piously in his father's presence.

She didn't want to break Isaac's heart by revealing to him how corrupt his son had become, so she had no choice but to encourage Jacob to receive the blessings as he did.

Also, Jacob was acting under direct orders from his Mom, who was a prophetess (as we see from the fact that G-d addresses her). When Rebecca suggested it, Jacob even protested, and Rebecca told him: "your curse is upon me, my son." If Abraham could go to slaughter his son based on prophecy, so could Jacob.

By the way, which Rabbis do you side with - those who believe Esau's kiss was sincere or those who believe it was insincere?

both interpretations are a valid part of the holy Torah

"As far as the religion of the early Hebrews are concerned, it is generally believed that it had nothing to do with the Yahweh cult which is introduced by Moses, for Exodus asserts that Moses is the first to hear the name of god, Yahweh. The Hebrew accounts of the patriarchs generally use the term "Elohim" (God), ..."

(Firstly, Jews do not pronounce or write the name starting with Y that you refer to. I will refer to it as the Tetragrammaton.)

This is a totally inaccurate presentation of the verses.

for Exodus asserts that Moses is the first to hear the name of god

Indeed. Let's examine the verse:

"I appeared (literally - was seen by--va'eira) to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, as El Shaddai, but My Name (here the Tetragrammaton is mentioned) I did not make known to them" (Exodus 6:3).

So it is clearly the one and the same G-d addressing Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, but by a different name.

What's the concept of G-d's Name? Just as human beings "wear many hats"--we go by different names when we relate to various people at various times, under various circumstances.


See this page:

http://www.aish.com/torahportion/rashi/Whats_Bothering_Rashi_Vaeira.asp

for a thorough explanation of how this verse, which says that God did not appear to the patriarchs using this unique Name, fits with the fact that we find that He did reveal Himself with this Name:

See Genesis 15:7 where it says that God appeared to Abraham:

"I am Hashem (the special four-letter Name) Who brought you out of Ur of the Chaldees to give you this land to possess it."

We also find in Genesis 28:13 in connection with Jacob's ladder dream:

"And behold Hashem (the special four letter Name) was standing over him and He said : 'I am Hashem, God of Abraham your father and God of Isaac; the ground upon which you are lying, to you will I give it and to your descendants."

Anyway, this is a redundant discussion. Anyone who understands Hebrew and examines the original Biblical text can see that the various Divine Names are used interchangeably, and when read in context, all clearly refer to the same Speaker.

According to Jewish mysticism, the Kabbala, G-d's many Names correspond to different forms of manifestation and higher and lower levels, but they are all manifestations of the One Creator, Who transcends His manifestations.

I believe Elohim can also mean "gods" - plural.

Indeed, it is plural.

The Name Elokim alludes to G-dliness as it permeates the corporeal world--in the case of man it becomes the life force and inner strength of the person. The Tetragrammaton (referred to in Chasidic parlance as "Havaye") usually alludes to a transcending level which hovers over and encompasses the person. When on Yom Kippur the Jews proclaim: "Havaye is Elokim!," they speak of the true reality: a unification of the immanent with the transcendental.

The G-dliness that permeates the physical world is expressed in multiplicity, and therefore it is referred to in the plural.

Transcendent G-dliness, however, is referred to in the singular, because it represents a level that transcends the plurality in the world.

So Abraham may have worshipped Elohim (plural) or perhaps just one of them.

Not so. The Tetragrammaton is referred to before Moses' time, as above.

more explanation:

Generally speaking, there are two levels in G-d's revelation to humanity. They are expressed in the two names of G-d:


"Elokim"–- G-d's indwelling light, as He reveals Himself in nature. This name literally means Deities (in the plural!), because it represents the manifestation of the One G-d in nature, where there is multiplicity and division–-concealment of His absolute oneness.

When one realises the existence of a Creator by deduction, after meditating on the complexity of nature, it is only this lower level to which one relates.


Beyond that is "Havaye." This is not its exact pronunciation, as this name, due to its tremendous holiness and the current coarse state of the world, may not be uttered. However, when the Moshiach comes and the world will be refined, it will be permitted and indeed, encouraged to utter this Name.

In the words of Maimonides: "The Moshiach (Messiah) will rectify the entire world to serve G-d together, as it states, 'For then I will transform the nations...that they all call in the Name of Havaye.'" (Laws of Kings, Ch. 11 Law 4)

Also known as the Tetragrammaton, this name denotes Divine Revelation that transcends the natural order. G-d's true unity can only be grasped through an understanding of and a relationship with this Name.