I would like your opinion Monothiest regarding what is happeing in Palastine.

Are you as a jew ordered to fight for it? do you consider that place holly to you?

and whats the difference between an Israli and a Jew?

I would like your opinion Monothiest regarding what is happeing in Palastine

that's a leading question
I know of no such place

Are you as a jew ordered to fight for it?

do you mean for the Holy Land of Israel, that G-d declared numerous times in the Hebrew Scriptures belongs to the Jews forever?

yes, we are obliged to fight for it, to defend it from invaders

non-Jews are welcome to live there, provided they do not threaten our security in our G-d-given Land

do you consider that place holy to you?

The Torah itself, in numerous places, refers to it as the Holy Land.

what's the difference between an Israeli and a Jew?

A Jew is someone who has a Jewish mother or is converted according to Jewish Law. An Israeli is a citizen in the state of Israel. Many non-Jews--Muslims and Christians--are Israelis.

According to the Bible the world was created 5760 years ago by the word of G-d.

Man was created in the image of G-d on the sixth and final day of creation and on the seventh day he rested.

The Bible gives a very detailed record of the entire creation, followed by the flood of Noah and the birth of Abraham who was the first to recognize G-d and the father of the Jewish nation.

Throughout the Bible we find G-d's promises to give the Land of Israel to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and their descendants for all future generations.

The following is a brief selection of Biblical sources that demonstrate the Jewish ownership of the Land of Israel, both through divine promise and aquistion.

G-d appeared to Abram and said, "To your offspring I will give this land."Genesis 12, 7

G-d said to Abram… "Raise now your eyes and look out from where you are: northward, southward, eastward and westward. For all the land that you see, to you will I give it, and to your descendants forever." Genesis 13, 14-15 G-d said to Abram…"Arise, walk about the land through its length and breadth! For to you will I give it." Genesis 13, 17

Abraham purchases Cave of Machpela in Hebron. Genesis 15, 7. 15, 18-21. 17, 8. 23, 16-18.

G-d promises that Isaac shall inherit Abraham. Genesis 17, 19. 21, 12

Abraham gives all his possessions to Isaac. Genesis 25, 5.

Abraham was buried in the Cave of Machpela. Genesis 25, 10.

G-d promises Isaac that He will fulfill His promise of the land to Abraham. Genesis 26, 3-4.

Isaac hands down the promise of the land to Jacob. Genesis 28, 4.

G-d promises the Land of Israel to Jacob. Genesis 28, 13

Jacob purchases land in Shechem Genesis 33, 19

Genesis 35, 12 (G-d promises to give Jacob and his offspring the Land of Israel). Genesis 48, 21-22 (Jacob gives Joseph Shechem). Genesis 49, 30. 50, 13. 50, 24 (Joseph tells his brothers G-d will remember His promise to Abraham Isaac and Jacob).

G-d tells Moses to tell the Jews that He will bring them to the land promised to Abraham Isaac and Jacob Exodus 6, 8

Moses promises redemption and the Jewish inheritance of Israel. Deuteronomy 30, 3-5

Monotheism I would like to ask you some questions:

1- Why do you refer to Allah (God) as G-d?? why dont you just say God?

2- You said Allah gave the Holy land to Ibraheem (PBUH) and his sons ..doesnt that include arabs since Ismaa'iil (PBUH) is the father of all arabs?

3- According to torah, where did the arabs come from and who's their father

According to the Bible the world was created 5760 years ago by the word of G-d.


is this what you believe?

Originally posted by monotheism
that's a leading question
I know of no such place


I know of no place called Israel too ;)

well this is where all our troubles are I guess, all of us keep on insisting that we should keep our religious symboles to our selves. as a muslim, Al-Qudus (or what you call jerusallam) is a holly place to us too.

regarding the problem in Palastine (or Israel to you) what do you think is the answer?

Originally posted by monotheism

Man was created in the image of G-d on the sixth and final day of creation and on the seventh day he rested.


Do you mean Adam PBUH by Man?
And do you really believe that human are image of God?
Are you saying that the universe created the same day as the creation of man?

Originally posted by monotheism

Throughout the Bible we find G-d's promises to give the Land of Israel to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and their descendants for all future generations.


If you look at it the whole earth is created for human being and other creatures to live in and not for a specific group of people. After all the owner of the whole universe including the earth is Allah, we are just living in it temporary and we don't own it.

Why do you refer to Allah (God) as G-d?? why dont you just say God?

The Jewish custom is to not to write His name in full, because G-d's written name is holy, and thus erasure of His Name, even when translated into a foreign language, is inappropriate, and if the piece of paper on which His name is written is discarded, that holy writing of his name will then have been desecrated. However this is not an obligation as such, just appropriate conduct.

You said Allah gave the Holy land to Ibraheem (PBUH) and his sons ..doesnt that include arabs since Ismaa'iil (PBUH) is the father of all arabs?

oh, this is an age-old challenge!

The Talmud says: "One time, the descendents of Yishmael came to court before Alexander the Great. They said before him, the land of Canaan is ours and yours (referring to the Jews)... Geviha Ben Pesisa said to the sages, give me permission to answer him ... He said: you bring proof from the Torah, I will also bring proof from the Torah. It is written, 'Avraham gave all he had to Yitzchak, and he gave gifts to the children of the concubines'."

Since those gifts were given as Avraham's inheritance, the descendants of Yishmael do not inherit a portion in the land.

(In the same way, since Esau was blessed separately by Yitzhak, his descendants do not inherit the land.)

Al-Qudus (or what you call jerusallam) is a holy place to us too.

I've never studied the Koran, but someone told me that it barely mentions the land of Israel or Jerusalem--perhaps only once or twice. It doesn't say that that land belongs to all Muslims. Contrast this with the dozens of clear statements in the Torah stated above declaring that the land belongs to the Jews, and the matter is clear.

Moreover, provided that people behave peacefully, Jews have no objection to non-Jews, whoever they may be, coming and worshipping in the holy city of Jerusalem, or anywhere else in the holy land.

or Israel to you

that's the way the Hebrew Scriptures refer to it countless times--do you challenge that?

regarding the problem in Palastine (or Israel to you) what do you think is the answer?

The Jewish people must insist on asserting that the land is theirs, as it was given to them by the Creator. Therefore there can be no room for compromises and concessions. Non-Jews are welcome to live in the land if they behave peacefully.

Do you mean Adam PBUH by Man?

yes, that's who I mean
what is PBUH?

And do you really believe that human are image of God?

I've answered that here: http://www.englishsabla.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=282319#post282319

If you look at it the whole earth is created for human being and other creatures to live in and not for a specific group of people. After all the owner of the whole universe including the earth is Allah, we are just living in it temporary and we don't own it.

Exactly! The Creator alone owns the entire world. He declares in the Hebrew Scriptures--as quoted in detail in my second post above--that he chooses to give this land to the Jews, so it belongs to the Jews alone.

Thus, the claim of the Jewish people to this land is incomparable to the claim of any other people to the land on which they live.

Originally posted by monotheism
The Jewish people must insist on asserting that the land is theirs, as it was given to them by the Creator. Therefore there can be no room for compromises and concessions. Non-Jews are welcome to live in the land if they behave peacefully.

by this statment, you are giving the muslim no option but to fight for what they think is thiers too!!
Because the two parties are not willing to compromise what they BELEIVE is thiers, there will not be any peace in israel maybe until the last day on this earth!!

Al Qudus to us is where prophet Mohammed peace be upon him has prayed infront of all of prophets, its a real holly place to us. It was mentioned in the Quran. There is no statment that the land should be ours, but as muslims we should allow our lands to be taken from us ..

The point is, muslims were last majority in Palastine. They owned the land.
Jews have thier claims that the land belongs to them, but realisticly they have no right to fight for something that they didnt own for a long time!!

you are giving the muslim no option but to fight for what they think is thiers too!!

again: based on what do they think it is theirs? The Jewish claim is based on G-d's Eternal Hebrew Scriptures, where he declares that it specifically belongs to the Jews.

Because the two parties are not willing to compromise what they BELIEVE is theirs, there will not be any peace in Israel maybe until the last day on this earth!!

If G-d gave it to the Jewish people, for the Jewish people to give it away would be wrong.

As I said: there can be peace, if the non-Jews--regardless of whether they are Arabs or members of any other nation--accept to live peacefully.

There is no statement that the land should be ours

well, I'm glad that's sorted out

but as muslims we should allow our lands to be taken from us .. The point is, muslims were last majority in Palastine. They owned the land. Jews have their claims that the land belongs to them, but realistically they have no right to fight for something that they didn't own for a long time!!

The Creator's Word is realistic to us. It guides our life, even when that seems impractical.

Since the Creator gave it to us as an Eternal Gift, the Land has belonged to the Jewish people all along, even after the destruction of the Holy Temple by the Romans, and the Jews' exile from the land. The other nations who had control over it in the interim, whether Arabic or Christian or other, were only occupying it. The Creator gave it to the Jewish people forever, so those nations' occupation did not constitute ownership. Now that, due to the Creator's blessings, the Jews are again living in their Land, we must stay.

Originally posted by monotheism


Exactly! The Creator alone owns the entire world. He declares in the Hebrew Scriptures--as quoted in detail in my second post above--that he chooses to give this land to the Jews, so it belongs to the Jews alone.

Thus, the claim of the Jewish people to this land is incomparable to the claim of any other people to the land on which they live.

Does this beliefe is the reason behind the fact that jews are the most people like this life.

Monothiest,

its accoring to your beleive only that the land belongs to you. Muslims (and I guess christians too) dont beleive in that!!

so, it cant be a valid reason for us.

To us muslims, if a land was owned by muslims, he is supposed to fight for it till the end of his life. Its his duty to protect his land from invadors.

Palastine belonged to Palastinans before the Jews started occyping it. Mojority of Palastinans are muslims, and so they are obliged to fight fot thier land.

The debate seems to be heading off on a slight tangent, which is nevertheless crucial to the Holy Land/Israel/Palestine issue. The UN divided the territory known as Palestine into 2 states in 1947, one state for a Jewish majority and one state for an Arab majority. The Jews accepted this and declared the State of Israel on 15 May 1948, the Arabs did not accept it and Egypt, Syria, Lebanon and Jordan attacked Israel but were beaten back. The rest is history.

Do Muslim Arabs claim the entire disputed territories with no recognition of Israel and no rights for Baha´i, Christians, Druze and Jews?

Do Jews claim hegemony over the entire disputed territories on the grounds that there can be no security for Israel with militant Muslims blowing themselves up on a regular basis?

Do Jews claim hegemony over the entire disputed territories on the grounds that there can be no security for Israel with militant Muslims blowing themselves up on a regular basis?

no, the Jewish claim to the Land is based solely on our Divinely-affirmed Biblical Ownership of the Land, and thus stands regardless of the consent or opposition of others

OK, I understand your religious position. My question is more political, but there would appear to be no separation between religion and politics on either the Orthodox Jewish side or the militant Muslim side.

You may care to read a heartwarming story of cooperation here:Antarctica (http://www.guardian.co.uk/antarctic/story/0,13993,1127131,00.html)

we as muslims ..knows what they believe, and we knows too that they are wrong ....

so why you asking them !!!!!! i wonder if Omar bin alkattab (rday ALlah 3nho) asked them or not ..and also sallah aldeen too :confused: