BTW, I'm an ex-Christian so, while I don't accept Christian texts as the One True Word of God, that's my background and frame of reference for discussions ... and meant no insult by including NT writings under the heading "Bible". Actually I was unaware that Jews use the term Bible at all? I thought the "old testament" is the Torah?

Well, when speaking in English, a Jew could refer to the Bible. I have made a point of referring to the Hebrew Scriptures to avoid confusion.

The Jews certainly don't use the term "old testament," which implies that the Torah was superseded, which is contrary to our faith.

"The Torah" refers to the Hebrew Scriptures (aka Tanakh), but also to the body of Rabbinic interpretation known as the Oral Law, which is the tradition of interpretation of the Hebrew Scriptures' text. It includes both.

Thanks :)

Isn't there a special term for the 1st five books too?

Yes. They are known as the "Chamisha Chumshei Torah"--the Five Books of Moses. In many contexts of study, when referring to "the Torah," the Jews mean these first five books. They are on a higher level of holiness, as they were revealed by Moses, who was the greatest prophet ever, according to Jewish belief.

The term Pentateuch, with which you may be familiar, is not a Jewish one--it's Christian.

Do you believe the the Torah was revealed or not?

Originally posted by Shakoosh Kabir
As an Orthodox Jew, how much of the Torah do you regard as the literal "Word of God" and how much do you regard as the work of scribes interpreting the "Word of God"?

Since I believe that the Jewish Sages spoke with Divine authority, I believe that their words are, in effect, the Word of G-d as well. I.e. as above in the first post:

"The Torah" refers to the Hebrew Scriptures (aka Tanakh), but also to the body of Rabbinic interpretation known as the Oral Law, which is the tradition of interpretation of the Hebrew Scriptures' text. It includes both.

According to Judaism, G-d's Word was revealed in two forms: in the Written Law, i.e., the text of the Hebrew Scriptures, and in the Oral Law. Each are integral, complementary parts of one indivisible whole.

The Oral Law was also revealed at Sinai, because G-d there revealed the general rules of interpretation and certain oral traditions, and appointed Moses to teach these laws and the exact application of them to the people, so they could apply the Law in daily life, and pass on this knowledge to future generations.

Monotheism,
I'v got a forward in my inbox this morning, it contained some info about ''telmud''.I was really shocked while reading it and thought of asking you a couple of questions ..

1- Is it stated in the telmud that its ok to RAPE girls above 3 years of age ??!!

2- A jewish woman who has just finished her shower and got out of the bath, if she see's a non-jew, a dog, a donkey or a pig..she should get back and have another shower!!

please ask!:)

1. never heard of such a thing--was a source quoted?

on the contrary, Judaism says that it is a terrible sin to behave in such an immoral way

the Creator also forbids non-Jews to behave like that, under the Universal Noahide Code

2. I think by "shower," you mean the mikveh=Jewish ritual bath.

The Talmud tells the story of Rabbi Yochanan who was a very handsome man. The Talmud describes how he would sit outside the Mikveh (ritual bath) on the street, and as the women would leave they would pass by Rabbi Yochanan. Rabbi Yochanan explained that the women seeing his beauty while leaving the Mikveh would give them the merit of having children as beautiful as he.

Why did Rav Yochanan sit outside the Mikveh?

When the Talmud speaks about the beauty of Rav Yochanan it does not mean only physical beauty. Rather, it refers to an appearance of holiness and righteousness. The beauty of Rav Yochanan was the beauty of a face that glowed with goodness and purity. Rav Yochanan believed that if the women would see him before they would go home and be with their husbands that this could affect the outcome of the child, since the thoughts and attitudes during intimacy can affect the outcome of the child.

Although he knew he would be ridiculed by his colleagues he felt it important to try to benefit the women and families of his city. Therefore, Rav Yochanan sat outside the Mikveh.

Just as negative imagery is very detrimental, positive images are very powerful in a positive sense. Jewish women want their children to be born with total purity, so they specifically gaze at images of holy Jewish sages before uniting with their husbands on the night of immersion, the night when the woman is most fertile, so their children will be born in purity.

Gazing at any other images would detract, so some women would immerse again. According to Torah, no other image can come close to the holiness imbued by gazing at the image of a holy Jewish sage (in Hebrew, a Tzaddik).

In the times when the text discussing that custom was written, in general, most non-Jews were very hostile to the Jews. Their character traits were lacking, and therefore if a fertile woman would gaze at them, it would have a detrimental spiritual effect on the child that might be born. So it was recommended that she immerse herself again.

Originally posted by monotheism
Yes. They are known as the "Chamisha Chumshei Torah"--the Five Books of Moses.


What constitutes the Five Books of Moses and who wrote them ?

The Creator dictated them to Moses (Moshe) on Mt. Sinai.

Mount Sinai

by Rabbi Ken Spiro

The encounter between God and the Jews at Mount Sinai was a totally unique event in all of human history.


Passover is often described as the holiday of freedom. And in liberal democracies freedom is often misunderstood as the ability to do whatever you like with no oppressive authority telling you what to do. But that is not how the Bible and Judaism define freedom.

The Jewish idea of freedom is best summarized by that very famous expression -- "Praise the servants of God who are not servants of Pharaoh." That is, freedom is seen a means to an end, not an end in and of itself. It is being free from an oppressive authority in order to stand at Mount Sinai and commit to a certain responsibility.

What happened at Mount Sinai?

To answer quite simply, the Jewish people -- every man, woman and child -- had an encounter with God.

It was a totally unique event in all of human history. The Bible itself states in Deuteronomy 4:33 that this never happened any place else. You can check all history books, you'll never find a similar story of God speaking to an entire people.

All other claims about revelation in human history are based on the experience of one individual or at best a small group of initiates. For example, Islam is founded on the teachings of Mohammed who said that God spoke to him in a cave and revealed the teachings contained in the Koran to him.

The notion of an entire people having an encounter with God is unique to Judaism. And it's the one claim that cannot be faked. So for example, I can claim that I had a vision last night and God spoke to me, and if I'm charismatic enough and you are gullible enough you might believe I am a prophet. But I can't convince you that you saw something that you know you didn't see.

Jews say that we have kept the Torah for thousands of years, not because of miracles or any other supernatural phenomena of Jewish history, but because we all stood at Mount Sinai and heard God speak and for generation after generation that very fact was passed down.

The story of the survival of the Jewish people is going to be to a large extent the story of what's called shalshelet hakabala -- the transmission process of Torah from one generation to the next.

A NATION IS BORN

At Mount Sinai the Jewish people become a nation. Again, this is a unique event which says a lot about the Jewish people. What's so unique about it?

Well, consider how the French became "the French." Did they all wake up one morning to collectively decide they liked white wine and blue cheese and they were going to speak French? No. It was a long process. As with every other nation, this process involved a people living in a specific geographic area for an extended period of time and evolving a common language and a common culture born of a shared historical experience. Eventually, this people developed a political entity and government (with a king at its head) and they defined their boundaries, flew a flag, minted coins and called themselves France.

For Jews the process of becoming a nation started outside their national homeland -- in fact while in bondage and under the most adverse conditions designed to erase any cultural or historical identity. Jews did not become a nation by pledging allegiance to the State of Israel. A scraggly band of escaped slaves became a nation standing at the foot of Mount Sinai and saying to God: "We will do and we will listen" -- that is, pledging to fulfill the commandments of the Torah and with time to understand the mission that came with it.

Just as Abraham said, many, many generations earlier, "I choose to live, and if necessary to die, for the reality of God," so too these descendants of Abraham made the same commitment.

That's how the Jews became the Nation of Israel.

This is why we say that Judaism is not just a religion -- it's a national identity. Being a Jew is not the same as being a Christian. Christianity is purely a religious belief. You could be British, American, French and still be a Christian.

Not so the Jews.

The Jews can certainly become citizens of the countries in which they live and they often look and act like everyone else, but all the while, they and everyone else knows they are different. If they choose to deny this fact, the rest of the world will always remind them of it.

Being a Jew is being part of a distinct people and a nation, which does have a land, does have a language, does have a history and a world mission.

Most importantly, Jews have a specific relationship with God which is not just a religious/spiritual thing, it's an all-encompassing view of the world -- how to live every second of life -- which is unique in the world.

The Jewish national identity was forged by the experience at Mount Sinai where we committed to a mission, and a specific way of life to be lived in accordance with the commandments of the Torah, which is the guidebook for accomplishing that mission on a personal and national level.

THE ULTIMATE SCRIBE

After the original revelation, Moses spent 40 days listening to God talking to him, dictating to him the 613 commandments of the Torah (which are encapsulated in Ten Statements, the so-called "Ten Commandments") and also the principles how to apply these commandments (which are referred to as the Oral Law).

Note that the Oral Law was given first. And the Oral Law has been exclusively in the domain of the Jews. The Christians adopted the Written Law -- the Torah and other parts of the Hebrew Bible as part of their scriptures -- but the Oral Law stayed uniquely Jewish. Because it is the Oral Law that tells us how to live as Jews.

I cannot emphasize strongly enough how significant the Oral Law is. One can't live as a Jew without it. It's going to become a very important issue when we look at splinter sects in Judaism later on in Jewish history.

The Written Law was written over a period of 40 years while the Jews wandered in the desert and God was dictating to Moses. There's a lot of material in the Bible that's explaining what happens later on in their wanderings, so obviously this wasn't given in advance at Mount Sinai or there'd be no free will.

Although the Torah -- Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy -- are called the Five Books of Moses, Moses was not the author. Moses was the scribe -- the ultimate scribe. God dictated to Moses.

But it's very clear, and the Bible says over and over again, that Moses was unique among all prophets.


And there arose no prophet in Israel like Moses whom the Lord knew face to face.(Deut. 34:10)

Prophecy means that a human being is able to transcend to a higher level of spiritual reality, and of course, what that level is depends on the prophet's direct experience of the infinite. Most prophets would get a vision and put that vision into words. Moses' prophecy was unique in that God spoke to him. He "heard" God directly.

And the Torah is considered a direct dictation, which is why the Five Book of Moses have a unique position among all holy books of the Jewish people and a unique authority in the Jewish world.

With the Ten Commandments in hand, Moses came down the mountain and what he saw shocked him to such an extent that he dropped the stone tablets. Below the mountain, where just a few weeks ago, they stood in an encounter with God, the Jews were worshipping an idol in direct violation of the law they had just been given.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by monotheism
The Creator dictated them to Moses (Moshe) on Mt. Sinai.



Why, then, is it in the third person ?

Deuteronomy

And Moses went ...

And Moses made ...

These be the words which Moses spake ...

...wherewith Moses the man of God blessed the children of Israel ...


Image poor Moses when God got to this part:

Deuteronomy 34

5 So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD.

6 And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day.

7 And Moses was an hundred and twenty years old when he died: his eye was not dim, nor his natural force abated.

8 And the children of Israel wept for Moses in the plains of Moab thirty days: so the days of weeping and mourning for Moses were ended.

9 And Joshua the son of Nun was full of the spirit of wisdom; for Moses had laid his hands upon him: and the children of Israel hearkened unto him, and did as the LORD commanded Moses.

10 And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face,

11 In all the signs and the wonders, which the LORD sent him to do in the land of Egypt to Pharaoh, and to all his servants, and to all his land,

12 And in all that mighty hand, and in all the great terror which Moses shewed in the sight of all Israel.


No, clearly the above was not written by Moses but after his death.