Just out of ciuristy
when did Jesuse (PBUH) die, according to Christianity?
When was the bible documented (IF IT WAS ANY WAY? )
How was the way its ducumented?
When was the first time it's made in one book?
Who did the ducumentation of the bible?
Why do you have seven virsions of the bible?
Which one is the right one and why?


PEACE

I'm not Christian, but I see the title of your thread as extraordinarily insulting. You may get better results, by not being a butthead.

I'm sure many a westerner would get banned if they used the same terminology towards Islam.

There is the new testament and the old testament. I'm not a Christian scholar. They change the words to make them understandable to today. Who knows what a Cubic is in Iceland, Russia, China, South America?

The meanings do not change.

The other questions I can't answer, because I'm not christian. But I'll answer best I can. The bible was written by the people that wrote each chapter. Duh.

I have my issues with Christianity as well, but I don't insult them as crassly as you have, and as rudely. I accept their religion, as I accept yours. You would be wiser to change the title, so you don't look like a hater. Unless that's how you want to be viewed. Not my call.

Well he couldn't answer the question on the corrupted Quran, the one Uthman published so he thought of changing the topic and trying to insult the Bible.

Sadlad, why do you not include Uthman in your profession of faith ? After all he did something even the Prophet could not do, that is publish the FINAL VERSION of the unchanging book you call the Quran ?

Do you not think that Allah could have ensured that the original version would be gathered and published when the Prophet was still around ?

Think Think Think.

why is it the first time for me to hear such thing sunwin.
can you be more obvious here and state what you are talking about the 7 versions and so clearly, for simple minds like mine here to understand and can think and think and rethink again!

Sunwin25
We have answered your question verious times and made it as easy as possible, but you don't seem to understand.
Any way, stick to the topic. Don't try to make it go in another direction.
Thanx

Originally posted by sanwin25
Well he couldn't answer the question on the corrupted Quran, the one Uthman published so he thought of changing the topic and trying to insult the Bible.

Sadlad, why do you not include Uthman in your profession of faith ? After all he did something even the Prophet could not do, that is publish the FINAL VERSION of the unchanging book you call the Quran ?

Do you not think that Allah could have ensured that the original version would be gathered and published when the Prophet was still around ?

Think Think Think.

Hahaha This guy got to know the Name Uthman & he is rushing his name in every thread (with a reason or with out it), he might even doesn't know what Uthman did or who was he!!:p

Still waiting for answers

Well, this has all been said before but possibly you weren't a member back then, so I'll give it a stab ... keep in mind I rejected Christianity after studying it for some years so while I don't consider myself a biblical scholar, I know more about it than 90% of Christians who never question their Sunday School lessons :)


Originally posted by SadLad
Just out of ciuristy
when did Jesuse (PBUH) die, according to Christianity?

According to the Bible, Jesus was crucified when he was 33 years old, at that time he "died", descended into Hell for 3 days then rose from the dead and was alive for a time on earth, then ascended to Heaven, so he never officially died ... (not permanenetly, if you get my meaning)

When was the bible documented (IF IT WAS ANY WAY? )

The Gospels (accounts of the disciples) were written down several years after Jesus ... I think most about 60-70AD, which would make it 30-40 years afterwards ... the rest of the New Testament was in the forms of letters written to the various fledgling churches over time, and of course Revelations was written down when it happened.

There are many, many other documents - other correspondence between early church leaders, memoirs of the other disciples, etc - which were not included in the "official" new testament as put together in the 4th century AD. Some because they could not be verified, others because the church leaders at the time disagreed with them ... others had already been lost to time and are only now being discovered in archaological sites.

Before you jump all over this, listen to my explanation (and it's only my opinion, real Christians are invited to disagree:) ). As I understand from my reading the entire thing and the relatively few actual quotes from Jesus, "Christianity" is NOT a revealed religion - HE never wrote anything down - and his teachings were quite simple and didn't require a whole book anyway! The New Testament is a history, telling the story of Jesus' life from the point of view of those closest to him, and the story of the early church.

At any rate, in the 4th century AD (can't recall the name of the meeting, someone help me out...), the church leaders (this is the early Catholic church, though I don't think they used that name yet) sat down and sorted through all the documents they had over the years and decided which ones were original and valid, and put them together into one book. Of course they claim divine inspiration, but ... they would, wouldn't they?! :)

Texts dated to 70AD have verified the gospels as original ... although other texts from the same era were NOT included. These portions can obviously be seen as "correct" and "uncorrupted", allowing for translation from the Greek and Aramaic.

Not sure what you mean about "7 versions", can you clarify the question?

SadLadOriginally posted by SadLad
Just out of ciuristy
when did Jesuse (PBUH) die, according to Christianity?
When was the bible documented (IF IT WAS ANY WAY? )
How was the way its ducumented?
When was the first time it's made in one book?
Who did the ducumentation of the bible?
Why do you have seven virsions of the bible?
Which one is the right one and why?


PEACE

What was your motive for opening this thread?

Do you really want to know more about the Bible? I contend that is not the reason that you opened this thread.

Now are you going to tell me another lie as you did in another thread about your motives or you going to be a good muslim and own up to the honest truth and ask God for forgiveness?

What's it going to be?

First, thank you for taking your time to answer my questions. I really appreciate it.

I have written theses questions after hearing seeing some members in this forum claiming that Quran is a currpted book and that we should leave islam and see the light which they think must be in Christianity. They have accused islam of lots things to the extrem that one of them said our current Quran is Uthman's rendition " Uthman does not believe in the Prophet nor what was revealed to him, and what you have now is Uthman's rendition of the Qur'an, not the one known to the Prophet. Face it: you are just livng in your darkness and would not want this known, nor would you like to know it."' Such comments made me ciurious to know something about people arguing me religon and book because really what I know about this religons is too little. Maybe i was little offensive when first start this thread, but as soon as noticed that I asked one of the modrators to change my title.

Originally posted by MoonChild
Well, this has all been said before but possibly you weren't a member back then, so I'll give it a stab ... keep in mind I rejected Christianity after studying it for some years so while I don't consider myself a biblical scholar, I know more about it than 90% of Christians who never question their Sunday School lessons :)

Good i have always considered you to be a christian membere.


Originally posted by MoonChild
According to the Bible, Jesus was crucified when he was 33 years old, at that time he "died", descended into Hell for 3 days then rose from the dead and was alive for a time on earth, then ascended to Heaven, so he never officially died ... (not permanenetly, if you get my meaning)
[/B]
Milliardo Peacecraft once wrote
"the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and yet there are not three Gods but one God"
As far as i know christians consider Jeuses(PBUH) the son of god; therefore, Jueses is a god but how can a god be crucified? and who descended this god into Hell for 3 days then rose him from the dead and then again ascended him to Heaven?
Originally posted by MoonChild
The Gospels (accounts of the disciples) were written down several years after Jesus ... I think most about 60-70AD, which would make it 30-40 years afterwards ... the rest of the New Testament was in the forms of letters written to the various fledgling churches over time, and of course Revelations was written down when it happened.[/B]
So to Chritian members, how can you assure that your book has not been corrupted if it was writen 30 years after your Prophet's left you.
Originally posted by MoonChild
There are many, many other documents - other correspondence between early church leaders, memoirs of the other disciples, etc - which were not included in the "official" new testament as put together in the 4th century AD. Some because they could not be verified, others because the church leaders at the time disagreed with them ... others had already been lost to time and are only now being discovered in archaological sites.[/B]
So, does that mean that there are some lost parts in the the current book Christians have? and who are the church leaders to disagree with something you think god has sent down to you?
I'm intrested in hearing some responses from the Christian members regarding Moony Quet .

Originally posted by MoonChild
Before you jump all over this, listen to my explanation (and it's only my opinion, real Christians are invited to disagree:) ). As I understand from my reading the entire thing and the relatively few actual quotes from Jesus, "Christianity" is NOT a revealed religion - HE never wrote anything down - and his teachings were quite simple and didn't require a whole book anyway! The New Testament is a history, telling the story of Jesus' life from the point of view of those closest to him, and the story of the early church.[/B]

That's what i think as well. so no comments!
Originally posted by MoonChild
At any rate, in the 4th century AD (can't recall the name of the meeting, someone help me out...), the church leaders (this is the early Catholic church, though I don't think they used that name yet) sat down and sorted through all the documents they had over the years and decided which ones were original and valid, and put them together into one book. Of course they claim divine inspirati[QUOTE]Originally posted by MoonChild on, but ... they would, wouldn't they?! :)
[/B]
Again to the Christian members, I need to hear some comments regarding this?
Originally posted by MoonChild
Texts dated to 70AD have verified the gospels as original ... although other texts from the same era were NOT included. These portions can obviously be seen as "correct" and "uncorrupted", allowing for translation from the Greek and Aramaic.

Not sure what you mean about "7 versions", can you clarify the question? [/B]

I mean do the diffrent catogries of Christians have the same book regarding its meaning concepts and words?


It would be better if some people who strongly believe in Christianity answere my questions.

Originally posted by SadLad
Just out of ciuristy
when did Jesuse (PBUH) die, according to Christianity?

He did not die in the usual sense, since He rose and ascended.

When was the bible documented (IF IT WAS ANY WAY? )

From the beginning (Genesis) all the way to the writing of Revelation, which was around 100 A.D. or earlier.

How was the way its ducumented?

Through writing. Though that's really the simplified answer.

When was the first time it's made in one book?

The first one was around 90 A.D. or so.

Who did the ducumentation of the bible?

The finalization was made at the Council of Carthage, which was then brought to Pope Boniface for ratification.

Why do you have seven virsions of the bible?

There are many Bible scholars who make the Bible for their own community. Are they all true? Yes. The difference is not in the Bible but how one interprets it, just as there are many who interpret the Qur'an differently.

The Gospels (accounts of the disciples) were written down several years after Jesus ... I think most about 60-70AD, which would make it 30-40 years afterwards ... the rest of the New Testament was in the forms of letters written to the various fledgling churches over time, and of course Revelations was written down when it happened.

font=comic sans ms]Actually, the first Gospel written down was Mark, 5 years after the Crucifixion. Paul's letters were written 3 years before Mark.[/font]

Before you jump all over this, listen to my explanation (and it's only my opinion, real Christians are invited to disagree:) ). As I understand from my reading the entire thing and the relatively few actual quotes from Jesus, "Christianity" is NOT a revealed religion - HE never wrote anything down - and his teachings were quite simple and didn't require a whole book anyway! The New Testament is a history, telling the story of Jesus' life from the point of view of those closest to him, and the story of the early church.

Hhmm...not revealed? Then what was Jesus here for, and what were the Disciples there for? Christians affirm that Christianity is a revealed religion. Jesus did not write anything down, but He did command His Disciples to preach the Gospel, and Paul in many instances affirms this.

At any rate, in the 4th century AD (can't recall the name of the meeting, someone help me out...), the church leaders (this is the early Catholic church, though I don't think they used that name yet) sat down and sorted through all the documents they had over the years and decided which ones were original and valid, and put them together into one book. Of course they claim divine inspiration, but ... they would, wouldn't they?! :)

That was the Council of Carthage. It came right after the Council of Hippo, which ratified the 73 books. Carthage affirmed Hippo's decision.

Originally posted by Milliardo Peacecraft
He did not die in the usual sense, since He rose and ascended.



I see and if you believe in the Trinity then when he died who gave him his sole back?

Originally posted by IceTea
I see and if you believe in the Trinity then when he died who gave him his sole back?

In 1 Peter we see Jesus descending the souls in prison, or Sheol, the abode of the dead in Judaism, to preach to the souls there about Himself. Who gave His soul back? He went and came back of His own free will. Remember He is God embodied as human.

Originally posted by Milliardo Peacecraft
In 1 Peter we see Jesus descending the souls in prison, or Sheol, the abode of the dead in Judaism, to preach to the souls there about Himself. Who gave His soul back? He went and came back of His own free will. Remember He is God embodied as human.

And how he gave his soul back? Can you hold the soul in your hand and what do you know about the soul?

If he is God then why needs a soul?

Originally posted by Milliardo Peacecraft
Hhmm...not revealed? Then what was Jesus here for, and what were the Disciples there for? Christians affirm that Christianity is a revealed religion. Jesus did not write anything down, but He did command His Disciples to preach the Gospel, and Paul in many instances affirms this.

It would have been more correct to say that it was not God's plan for Jesus to write a holy book - as Jesus was only interested in verbal teachings. You're right, I used the term incorrectly... :)

In one of your threads you state
Originally posted by Milliardo Peacecraft
Peacecraft It's demonstrated already even by scientific experiment that a message passed on will change its meaning, order, etc. the further it goes away from the originator. [/B]

1-As Moonchild made it clear the Gospels were written down several years after Jesus ... almost about 60-70AD, which would make it 30-40 years afterwards and bible was not gathered in one book until that time, so does your above statement apply with the bible too.


2- since you christians consider Jeuses(PBUH) as a god, how can a god be crucified? and who descended this god into Hell for 3 days then rose him from the dead and then again ascended him to Heaven? Don't tell me that he sent himself there! and if you did then why did he do that? Was it because he didn't know how Hell feels and wanted to give it a shot.?


3- As MoonChild made it clear, in the 4th century AD, the church leaders (this is the early Catholic church, sat down and sorted through all the documents they had over the years and decided which ones were original and valid, and put them together into one book.
Here we go...
How can we be sure the church leaders didn't choose what suited their aims and threw away what didn't?
Had those church leaders lived at the same era Prophet Jesus lived in to know what was valid and what was not?



4- How silly a god is to embody as human who is always imperfect!!
By the way, did your god embody in animals as well?
Just think about it; is not it innately an un accepted to the mighty god to embody in a weak human or animal?


PEACE

Originally posted by SadLad
As Moonchild made it clear the Gospels were written down several years after Jesus ... almost about 60-70AD, which would make it 30-40 years afterwards and bible was not gathered in one book until that time, so does your above statement apply with the bible too.

As I have already pointed out, Bibvle scholars date the writings more as this: the Pauline letters were written 2 years after the Crucifixion; the first Gospel written was Mark, written 5 years after the Crucifixion. The last Gospel to be written was John, some good 10-20 years after the Crucifixion, or maybe a little later.


since you christians consider Jeuses(PBUH) as a god, how can a god be crucified?

This is really what differentiates Christianity from any other religion. Non-Christians often ask this, since most od not see God to be one who will effect salvation by coming down Himself to become man and take on all our sins on Himself, so that the guilt we should bear are now His. This is more in the realm of faith, and it will take a long while to explain this. As St. Paul affirms, "Though Son, He did not cling to Godliness, but emptied Himself and became a slave."

who descended this god into Hell for 3 days then rose him from the dead and then again ascended him to Heaven? Don't tell me that he sent himself there! and if you did then why did he do that? Was it because he didn't know how Hell feels and wanted to give it a shot.?

No, Jesus did not go to Hell. The proper term is Sheol, in Judaism the abode of the dead. In 1 Peter it talks of Jesus going to the souls in prison to preach there. Some think this is Hell, but Bible scholars do not think so, as souls in Hell can't be freed nor be preached to, so it is most likely He went to Sheol. In Christianity this would correspond to Purgatory. And yes, Jesus did go there of His own free will.

Here we go...
How can we be sure the church leaders didn't choose what suited their aims and threw away what didn't?

Yes, this is a good point. One would say it would be taken in faith that the bishops in Hippo and Carthage chose those which should be put into the final canon. Moreover, though, they chose carefully those that were attested to by early Christians (yes, there have been numerous writings done by early Christians, in case you didn't know). These witnesses, as they were, served as guide for the Church Fathers assembles in Hippo and Carthage, so much so that in Carthage they affirm that the books in the Bible that were placed were the ones given to them by those who came before them--the early Christian witnesses.

How silly a god is to embody as human who is always imperfect!!

Yes, it would indeed seem silly, but remember that God's ways are not our ways. What might be silly for us is right and proper for Him, and He saw it fit to put Himself as man to save us.

By the way, did your god embody in animals as well?
Just think about it; is not it innately an un accepted to the mighty god to embody in a weak human or animal?

Even though an animal is a sentient being, its level is not that of humans, so this idea would not even have merit.

Waiting for Mirranda to answer.


Originally posted by IceTea
And how he gave his soul back? Can you hold the soul in your hand and what do you know about the soul?

If he is God then why needs a soul?

Originally posted by IceTea
[B]Waiting for Mirranda to answer. /B]

I already did, Teabag.

No, Jesus did not go to Hell. The proper term is Sheol, in Judaism the abode of the dead. In 1 Peter it talks of Jesus going to the souls in prison to preach there. Some think this is Hell, but Bible scholars do not think so, as souls in Hell can't be freed nor be preached to, so it is most likely He went to Sheol. In Christianity this would correspond to Purgatory. And yes, Jesus did go there of His own free will.


To add to it: Jesus' soul is not like the human soul in effect. It can be seen as God's Spirit, which was more than once talked about in the Old Testament. So you can then see how this ties up with my reply above.

Off topic: Of all the colors that you could use, you chose Pink?

Wierd and gayish! :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Milliardo Peacecraft
As I have already pointed out, Bibvle scholars date the writings more as this: the Pauline letters were written 2 years after the Crucifixion; the first Gospel written was Mark, written 5 years after the Crucifixion. The last Gospel to be written was John, some good 10-20 years after the Crucifixion, or maybe a little later.


So why did John write a new Gospel if there was s.o who wrote it before him? Did John only copy-pasted what mark wrote or he added something new?

Originally posted by Milliardo Peacecraft
This is really what differentiates Christianity from any other religion. Non-Christians often ask this, since most od not see God to be one who will effect salvation by coming down Himself to become man and take on all our sins on Himself, so that the guilt we should bear are now His. This is more in the realm of faith, and it will take a long while to explain this. As St. Paul affirms, "Though Son, He did not cling to Godliness, but emptied Himself and became a slave."
[/B]
What kind of god is yours? somtimes he is a prophet, and sometimes a slave? Can't you see that you making god too weak and without mighty or holiness. I find it inately an unaccepted to view god as a slave.
It's so clear. Say it, you don't have any respect to god. Don't you?

Originally posted by Milliardo Peacecraft
No, Jesus did not go to Hell. The proper term is Sheol, in Judaism the abode of the dead. In 1 Peter it talks of Jesus going to the souls in prison to preach there. Some think this is Hell, but Bible scholars do not think so, as souls in Hell can't be freed nor be preached to, so it is most likely He went to Sheol. In Christianity this would correspond to Purgatory. And yes, Jesus did go there of His own free will.
[/B]
Why did he go there? Was it to taste Purgatory? Didn't he know how it feels to be there?

Originally posted by Milliardo Peacecraft
Yes, this is a good point. One would say it would be taken in faith that the bishops in Hippo and Carthage chose those which should be put into the final canon. Moreover, though, they chose carefully those that were attested to by early Christians (yes, there have been numerous writings done by early Christians, in case you didn't know). These witnesses, as they were, served as guide for the Church Fathers assembles in Hippo and Carthage, so much so that in Carthage they affirm that the books in the Bible that were placed were the ones given to them by those who came before them--the early Christian witnesses.
[/B]
they affirm that the books in the Bible that were placed were the ones given to them by those who came before them. I personally wouldn't trust those so-called fathers. and since those so-called fathers decided which documents were original and valid and which were not before puting them together into one book in the 4th century, you can never grantee that all what they collected was divine inspiration. You may tell this joke to a christian but not to any other.


Originally posted by Milliardo Peacecraft
Yes, it would indeed seem silly, but remember that God's ways are not our ways. What might be silly for us is right and proper for Him, and He saw it fit to put Himself as man to save us.
[/B]
So you agree it seems silly. No offense, but to me almost all your beliefes seem silly. Any way, do i understand from what you wrote above that your god ate what you ate and do all what humans do even going to the bathroom when he embodies humans.
By the way, did your god get married to any lady in the earth when he was embodied as human?!
Originally posted by Milliardo Peacecraft
Even though an animal is a sentient being, its level is not that of humans, so this idea would not even have merit. [/B]

Then you have to know that god's level is not that of humans too.!

SadLadHere we go...

How can we be sure the church leaders didn't choose what suited their aims and threw away what didn't?We can be sure by the same way the Utman burnt the Quran and distributed a version to suit themselves ..... ;)

Originally posted by jack
SadLadWe can be sure by the same way the Utman burnt the Quran and distributed a version to suit themselves ..... ;) Lets stick to the topic here.
If you have any thing about Uthman (raa) plz post it in the thread donated for that purpose.
thanx

Sadlad .... you askedHow can we be sure I told you. You no likey .....

Originally posted by jack
Sadlad .... you asked I told you. You no likey .....
Now, you have to understand that this topic is about the bible and has nothing to do with islam. If you have any idea in how to answer the direct question directly then do like your friend Milliardo Peacecraft has done so far. if you don't then you better get out of this thread because you are just spoiling it AND i DON'T WANT THIS THREAD TO GO IN ANOTHER DIRECTION.


PEACE

Originally posted by SadLad
So why did John write a new Gospel if there was s.o who wrote it before him? Did John only copy-pasted what mark wrote or he added something new?

Each Gospel was written for a different community. Remember that in those days communication was slow, and that there was no mass media as we know it now. Also, just like today, a number of books can be written about one subject matter. So for instance we have so many books all about World War II. Each Gospel then was written as well by how they knew and/or saw Jesus, just like how books today are written about, for instance, one subject matter.

[quote][b]What kind of god is yours? somtimes he is a prophet, and sometimes a slave? Can't you see that you making god too weak and without mighty or holiness.

We often think of greatness as being mighty. In Jesus He shows us that it is not really so, and teaches that it is the lowly and humble who will inherit God's kingdom, not the mighty. Refer this to His sermon on the mount, as well as other passages.

I find it inately an unaccepted to view god as a slave.
It's so clear. Say it, you don't have any respect to god. Don't you?

That is incorrect. If we don't respect God, then we won't even be praying. We won't even be building churches and going there. Refer again to my answer above concerning how might and power is for Jesus.

Why did he go there? Was it to taste Purgatory? Didn't he know how it feels to be there?

He went there to preach to the souls in prison. In Judaism at that time, heaven was only reserved to God and His hosts, the angels. Men who die go to Sheol, the abode of the dead. Sheol is divided to those who were holy and those who were not. Jesus went to the place in Sheol where the holy ones went, to subsequently free them to go to heaven. Jesus' death and resurrection opened up heaven for man to be with God for eternity.


they affirm that the books in the Bible that were placed were the ones given to them by those who came before them. I personally wouldn't trust those so-called fathers. and since those so-called fathers decided which documents were original and valid and which were not before puting them together into one book in the 4th century, you can never grantee that all what they collected was divine inspiration. You may tell this joke to a christian but not to any other.

Actually it's no different from the Qur'an: why do you trust it? It's because it was said so by your father as well as those who came before you. So then, by your analogy, it must be a joke as well that you trust the Qur'an because your father said it is true.


So you agree it seems silly. No offense, but to me almost all your beliefes seem silly. Any way, do i understand from what you wrote above that your god ate what you ate and do all what humans do even going to the bathroom when he embodies humans.

Just as we find many of your beliefs silly, but then we don't say it, do we? Do accord the same respect to our belief then. And yes, Jesus did live as any human would. You do know He bled on the Cross, so He lived as much a human as us. And yet, at the same time, He also embodies God, as Jesus showed in the Transfiguration.

By the way, did your god get married to any lady in the earth when he was embodied as human?!

Short and long answer--no.

Then you have to know that god's level is not that of humans too.

Yes, but that does not mean He cannot descend to our level. To make it clearer, He can go down our level, but in no way can we be on His level, not even in heaven. He would not be God if He cannot go down our level. Even the angels were able to eat with Abraham then, so this is very much possible.

Originally posted by Milliardo Peacecraft
We often think of greatness as being mighty. In Jesus He shows us that it is not really so, and teaches that it is the lowly and humble who will inherit God's kingdom, not the mighty. Refer this to His sermon on the mount, as well as other passages.


I have never thought of humans' greatness as being mighty. Did you? We are talking here about god being mighty and not humans because humans mighty will vanish one day were they rulers or common citizens but god's mighty will never vanish. Humans can't be mighty because they are imperfect and need to go to the bathroom everyday.

Originally posted by Milliardo Peacecraft
That is incorrect. If we don't respect God, then we won't even be praying. We won't even be building churches and going there. Refer again to my answer above concerning how might and power is for Jesus.
[/B]

Praying to god and building churches is not enough to prove that you respect god the one who creates you. Is it?
i might greet my boss, praise him and prepare every thing to him, but deep inside I don't respect him nor believe that he should be my boss. How can one say he respects god and then say things that contradict with that like putting his god down and says that He embodies imperfect creatures shapes and personality?!! Sit with yourself, think about it deeply and you will come to a disturbing conclusion: Christians don't have any respect to their god and consider him as a human>

Originally posted by Milliardo Peacecraft


Actually it's no different from the Qur'an: why do you trust it? It's because it was said so by your father as well as those who came before you. So then, by your analogy, it must be a joke as well that you trust the Qur'an because your father said it is true.
[/B]
The Quran was written in one book in the period in which Omar, the companion of Prophet mohammed and the second ameer who ruled after prophet Mohammed (PBUH) but it might was written with various dialects I'm not sure. The Quran then was gathered in one book and with one dialect again during Uthman's (mind you Uthman was a companion of Prophet Mohammed) era and people who gathered it were people who wrote it at the first time during the prophet's time. After gathering it in one book and with one dialect during Uthman's period, no one changed or added a signal word to it.NOW, Regarding your book, the "official" new testament of the bible was put together in the 4th century AD and as MoonChild made it clear some documents of the Bible were refused because the leaders of the church or whatever you call them refused them. Did those leaders live in the same era Prophet Juses lived in. Of course they didn't, then how could they tell what were divine inspiration and what were not? What the standards did they have for refusing any ducoment?Who wrote the documents which they refused and why did they write them? Did that mean that there were some people trying to corrupt the bible if it wasn't already corrupted?

And how would you responde to this Quote

Originally posted by MoonChild

Texts dated to 70AD have verified the gospels as original ... although other texts from the same era were NOT included.


Originally posted by Milliardo Peacecraft
Just as we find many of your beliefs silly, but then we don't say it, do we? Do accord the same respect to our belief then. And yes, Jesus did live as any human would. You do know He bled on the Cross, so He lived as much a human as us. And yet, at the same time, He also embodies God, as Jesus showed in the Transfiguration.
[/B]

Do you find the truth offensive?! I have great respect to all religons, but it was only that I couldn't stand seeing god being insulted and made down. God is god and humans are humans like right is right and wrong is wrong.
Originally posted by Milliardo Peacecraft
Yes, but that does not mean He cannot descend to our level. To make it clearer, He can go down our level, but in no way can we be on His level, not even in heaven. He would not be in your previous thread that "Even though an animal is a sentient being, God if He cannot go down our level. Even the angels were able to eat with Abraham then, so this is very much possible. [/B]
You admitted in your previous post that animals "its level is not that of humans, so this idea would not even have merit" So again god's level is not that of humans. That's how logic goes.
And again don't compare angels, god's creatures, to Him. God is greater than that.


PEACE

Originally posted by SadLad
I have never thought of humans' greatness as being mighty. Did you?

Maybe you don't, but most people do. And most people equate greatness with power. That is not Jesus' thinking.

We are talking here about god being mighty and not humans because humans mighty will vanish one day were they rulers or common citizens but god's mighty will never vanish. Humans can't be mighty because they are imperfect and need to go to the bathroom everyday.

I do not see the relevance of this post, unless you're trying to divert the topic away.

Praying to god and building churches is not enough to prove that you respect god the one who creates you. Is it?

Unless you think as well that praying and going to your mosque isn't enough. But on a much larger note, yes it isn't. Giving respect to God involves a lot more, really.

i might greet my boss, praise him and prepare every thing to him, but deep inside I don't respect him nor believe that he should be my boss. How can one say he respects god and then say things that contradict with that like putting his god down and says that He embodies imperfect creatures shapes and personality?!!

You certainly do not understand the how and why of it. Is that disrespect? No. If you see Christians throwing stones and mocking God, then that is disrespect. But you don't see Christians disrespecting Christ, do you now? Okay, read it loud and clear: in John 3:16 it says clearly: For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son, so that whoever believes in Him may not perish, but have everlasting life. This embodies the whole point of Jesus: that God became man for our sins, so that what should be our punishment He bore for us. The whole point of it all is God's love for us. This thing, as I understand it, is totally alien to Islam, and so your confusion.

Sit with yourself, think about it deeply and you will come to a disturbing conclusion: Christians don't have any respect to their god and consider him as a human>

Actually it's the other way around: do you believe God loves you? If so, do you believe He will do everything for you to save you from hell, to the point of giving Himself up? Let me put this in another analogy: do you have a friend? Do you believe that if your friend needs you, you will do everything you can to help him, even to the point of going the distance for him? That is the whole point of the message of the Gospel, something again Islam has totally missed.


The Gospels were written down several years after Jesus most about 60-70AD, which would make it 30-40 years

I have already discussed this above.

but the Quran was written in one book in the period in which Omar, the companion of Prophet mohammed and the second ameer who ruled after prophet Mohammed (PBUH) but it might was written with various dialects I'm not sure.

And so...? We don't really care, should we now? If it helps, it shows that there are many willing witnesses for Christ, and it shows that there aren't that many willing to write for Islam apart from this Omar. So it stands.

Did those leaders live in the same era Prophet Juses lived in. Of course they didn't, then how could they tell what were divine inspiration and what were not?

I ask you again: how do you know the Qur'an to be true? Did your father said so? Do you trust your father? Did you live in the Prophet's time? Maybe you should ask that then.

What the standards did they have for refusing any ducoment?Who wrote the documents which they refused and why did they write them? Did that mean that there were some people trying to corrupt the bible if it wasn't already corrupted?

Again, it would help that even before the Apostles died, they already had people around them who listened to them and knew what they did and wrote. So it wasn't unusual that the documents that now make up the Bible were known to the Bishops at Carthage, as they were attested to by those who came before them.

Do you find the truth offensive?! I have great respect to all religons, but it was only that I couldn't stand seeing god being insulted and made down. God is god and humans are humans like right is right and wrong is wrong.

This thinking of yours is comical than anything else. You seem to find it impossible for God to take on a form of a human. Why is this so? Again, read my reply above on why God did this. Unless you think God must be cruel, you know that He will do everything to see that each of us is saved from hell, and if it should take the form of a human and die for our sins, then He will do it.

You admitted in your previous post that animals "its level is not that of humans, so this idea would not even have merit" So again god's level is not that of humans. That's how logic goes.

Yes, but do you find yourself to be on the level of animals? If you do, then you shouldn't probably be writing here now. As I've said, it is not impossible for God to go down to our level--He is God, so nothing is impossible for Him.

And again don't compare angels, god's creatures, to Him. God is greater than that.

The heavenly hosts might be different from God, but as His hosts they have aspects of Him in them. Are you suddenly afraid then that angels can come down, eat among us, and live with us? If angels can do it, then why not God?

Here We Go..

Originally posted by Milliardo Peacecraft
Maybe you don't, but most people do. And most people equate greatness with power. That is not Jesus' thinking.

open-minded, well-educated people will never think of greatness as being mighty. That's such a silly generalization. For example, most people think of their parents as being great but do they consider them mighty? Maybe you do with yours . Who knows?!

Originally posted by Milliardo Peacecraft
I do not see the relevance of this post, unless you're trying to divert the topic away.
[/B]

I was trying to show you that people can't be mighty even though they try, but god can for he is a god and god is perfect. It seems it was little difficult to you to understand. Any way,..

Originally posted by Milliardo Peacecraft
Unless you think as well that praying and going to your mosque isn't enough. But on a much larger note, yes it isn't. Giving respect to God involves a lot more, really.
[/B]

Then don't try convincing me that you respect god by saying "If we don't respect God, then we won't even be praying. We won't even be building churches and going there." Try finding another way! Deal?

Originally posted by Milliardo Peacecraft

You certainly do not understand the how and why of it. Is that disrespect? No. If you see Christians throwing stones and mocking God, then that is disrespect. But you don't see Christians disrespecting Christ, do you now?
[/B]
There are many ways to show your disrespect not only to god but to any one. Throwing stones and mocking god are not only the ways in which you can show your disrespect. Giving god human's qualities is one of the ways.

Originally posted by Milliardo Peacecraft
Okay, read it loud and clear: in John 3:16 it says clearly: For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son, so that whoever believes in Him may not perish, but have everlasting life. This embodies the whole point of Jesus: that God became man for our sins, so that what should be our punishment He bore for us. The whole point of it all is God's love for us. This thing, as I understand it, is totally alien to Islam, and so your confusion.
[/B]

It's not only alien to Islam but to everyone who uses his mind. And by the way, who is that son that god give him his love.

Originally posted by Milliardo Peacecraft

Actually it's the other way around: do you believe God loves you? If so, do you believe He will do everything for you to save you from hell, to the point of giving Himself up? Let me put this in another analogy: do you have a friend? Do you believe that if your friend needs you, you will do everything you can to help him, even to the point of going the distance for him? That is the whole point of the message of the Gospel, something again Islam has totally missed.
[/B]
I believe that if my friend needs me, i will do my best to help him and not everything i can do. There must be limits to what i'll do for example i'll not do something that ruins my dignity to help him. As i said "There must be limits"

Originally posted by Milliardo Peacecraft
And so...? We don't really care, should we now? If it helps, it shows that there are many willing witnesses for Christ, and it shows that there aren't that many willing to write for Islam apart from this Omar. So it stands.
[/B]
It seems you are lost here. Read my post again and then answer. Okay?!!

Originally posted by Milliardo Peacecraft

I ask you again: how do you know the Qur'an to be true? Did your father said so? Do you trust your father? Did you live in the Prophet's time? Maybe you should ask that then.[/B]
The problem here is that our holy book, the Quran, was gathered in one book few years after our Prophet's (pbuh) death and people who gathered it were people who wrote it at the first place during Prophet's time but when it come to your book , it was gathered many years after your prophet's death (can you tell us how many years i mean the "official" new testament) and people who gathered it didn't see him and there were many pieces rejected without knowing the reasons.
Originally posted by Milliardo Peacecraft


Again, it would help that even before the Apostles died, they already had people around them who listened to them and knew what they did and wrote. So it wasn't unusual that the documents that now make up the Bible were known to the Bishops at Carthage, as they were attested to by those who came before them. [/B]
But excuse me, did the so-called apostles themselves write the bible in one book like it was with Quran or not? If they did, then why the church leaders changed once again?


Originally posted by Milliardo Peacecraft
This thinking of yours is comical than anything else. You seem to find it impossible for God to take on a form of a human. Why is this so? Again, read my reply above on why God did this. Unless you think God must be cruel, you know that He will do everything to see that each of us is saved from hell, and if it should take the form of a human and die for our sins, then He will do it.[/B]
Believe me it's not my thinking which is comical but what you believe. And what's that everything, is your mind clouded with what you believe evevnthough it's wrong. As I said above, there must be limits. For example, will you change your religion to another one just to make your husband or children happy? I doubt... no , no i shouldn't doubt because you will do everything even selling your body maybe. What a silly thinking.

Originally posted by Milliardo Peacecraft
Yes, but do you find yourself to be on the level of animals? If you do, then you shouldn't probably be writing here now. As I've said, it is not impossible for God to go down to our level--He is God, so nothing is impossible for Him.[/B]
. I can feel that you don't like your shape or your behavior to be like that of animals but it's ok to you for god to be in a human level or to behave like humans and take their shape> By the way, is it possible that god come to the earth on a shape of a cow and have sex with bulls in the earth? I wont be surprised if you say yes.!!!


Originally posted by Milliardo Peacecraft
The heavenly hosts might be different from God, but as His hosts they have aspects of Him in them. Are you suddenly afraid then that angels can come down, eat among us, and live with us? If angels can do it, then why not God? [/B]
Because the only god I believe in is greater than to come to earth with a humans' or animals' shape and he is greater than angels themselves. I myself won't like to be in a shape of animals or behave like them because my level is higher than that of animals so how come god behaves like humans. our level is less than animals' level compared to god's.







PEACE

It's not only alien to Islam but to everyone who chooses to use his mind. And by the way, who is that son that god give him his love

Let me add that all you posted is not only alien to Christianity but to anyone who actually uses his mind (as opposed to one who chooses but is not allowed to).

Originally posted by sanwin25
Let me add that all you posted is not only alien to Christianity but to anyone who actually uses his mind (as opposed to one who chooses but is not allowed to). Is that all what you were able to say? Is it the way you were taught at school to handle a debate?!!
Don't try figuring out my gramatical mistakes or the defects that i made in your langauge, but try to prove that what I have said about your religion is wrong by using logic.
Thanx

PEACE

Originally posted by Milliardo Peacecraft
I already did, Teabag.

No, Jesus did not go to Hell. The proper term is Sheol, in Judaism the abode of the dead. In 1 Peter it talks of Jesus going to the souls in prison to preach there. Some think this is Hell, but Bible scholars do not think so, as souls in Hell can't be freed nor be preached to, so it is most likely He went to Sheol. In Christianity this would correspond to Purgatory. And yes, Jesus did go there of His own free will.


To add to it: Jesus' soul is not like the human soul in effect. It can be seen as God's Spirit, which was more than once talked about in the Old Testament. So you can then see how this ties up with my reply above.

Your answer is based on assumptions and no solid evidence to support your claims.

And how can a person preach the souls?

If Profet Jesus PBUH have control over the souls then he will give his mother Mary her soul back!!

Your answer is based on assumptions and no solid evidence to support your claims.

Ice Tea, you are the person who wrote the book on assumptions and having no evidence to support your claims.

In all your posts on this sabla I have yet to see you provide either.

Originally posted by sanwin25
Ice Tea, you are the person who wrote the book on assumptions and having no evidence to support your claims.

In all your posts on this sabla I have yet to see you provide either.

I didn't wrote any book yet, but maybe in the future who knows ;)

A dictionary, thesaurus and a book of idioms would be a good place to start.

Originally posted by sanwin25
A dictionary, thesaurus and a book of idioms would be a good place to start.

LOL ...

My oh my ... when the situations are flipped ... it really becomes a mirror image of other threads ...

Originally posted by IceTea
Your answer is based on assumptions and no solid evidence to support your claims.

As much as Islam is also based on assumptions.

And how can a person preach the souls

Because Jesus is not an ordinary person, and in fact is God with us, as we see all the way back in Isaiah.

If Profet Jesus PBUH have control over the souls then he will give his mother Mary her soul back!!

Since she was assumed body and soul to heaven, then yes, in a way He did that, but then again Mary's souls never left her because she went to heaven in whole to be with Him.

You have not answered most of my questions up till now? Does that suggest that you are not able to answere them?> :lost: :confused:

Originally posted by SadLad
You have not answered most of my questions up till now? Does that suggest that you are not able to answere them?> :lost: :confused:

As far as I know I have answered all of the questions. Some questions I have not answered since they're basically the same ones I have already answered. Just do a search for those pertinent threads.

You have not answered most of my questions up till now? Does that suggest that you are not able to answere them?>

Maybe you are looking for a different answer ?

While I was thinking about Christianity
Some thing came into my mind and as usual I am confused??

We know that Christians says that Jesus is the son of god and mother Marie
Is his mother and so that means god is father of Jesus

So that means god slept with mother Marie and then Jesus came out to this world as a prophet.

My main questions:
If god had sex for once in his life time doesn’t he want to have sex again?

If he had sex that means he is a human isn’t it?

Humans are sinful and they eat sleep and fart vomit and …. More

All I want to say that christens god is a human.

And by the way while I was reading some Islamic books
It was written that “Allah” can never be seen.

So what do you people say?

:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

If jeuses was god , why did he die .
and then he went to hell , who created hell isn't he so why burn him self ??!!!! can't he freeze hell ??!!! .:lost:

and then he came back to life to spend sometime on earth to play ??!! and go back

to heaven , what is this travelling around ????!!! .:lost: what a powerful god he just keep

changing his mind oh my jeuses . and then he will go back again to hell so he can

save his people in judgement day ??!!!! .:lost: i am really interested in christanity and i

would like to convert but to do so i have to make sure that it is the right religion for

me being a non believer .:lost:

Originally posted by DemonOfTheFall
If jeuses was god , why did he die .
and then he went to hell , who created hell isn't he so why burn him self ??!!!! can't he freeze hell ??!!! .:lost:

Jesus died for our sins, and as we Christians profess, for the salvation of all mankind. He went to Sheol, not hell, though this was confused by translators as hell. Sheol in Judaism is the abode of the dead, and Jesus went to the souls there to preach.

and then he came back to life to spend sometime on earth to play ??!! and go back

He went back to give evidence of it, as well as to fulfill His mission.

i would like to convert but to do so i have to make sure that it is the right religion for

me being a non believer .:lost:

Just keep asking, though please as well, don't ask silly questions. It can be annoying.

first of all i would like ot point out that i am not Vargher . I have gone through alot of difficulties to register to such sabala why would i have multiple users . plus his style is diffrerent than mine .

second millo you have said that

Perhaps we can't, or maybe we can. Like I said, your actions and words are a reflection of your belief, so you can't really separate yourself from your faith, unless you're saying that what you post is your own opinion--which has been shown to be not so, since you quote your own holy book to back up your posts. So again, that respect is hard to be seen

can you exlpine more .i need examples

:lost:

Originally posted by Milliardo Peacecraft
As far as I know I have answered all of the questions. Some questions I have not answered since they're basically the same ones I have already answered. Just do a search for those pertinent threads. I would say you tried to answer my questions but you failed. :sorry: So plz, try harder.

Originally posted by sanwin25
Maybe you are looking for a different answer ? Not at all.
I'm looking for logical satisfying answers, but logic was never used in your answers

Originally posted by DemonOfTheFall
Perhaps we can't, or maybe we can. Like I said, your actions and words are a reflection of your belief, so you can't really separate yourself from your faith, unless you're saying that what you post is your own opinion--which has been shown to be not so, since you quote your own holy book to back up your posts. So again, that respect is hard to be seen

can you exlpine more .i need examples

A very good example are the actions of terrorists. Now, many Muslims might say that they do not reflect your beliefs, but they act in the name of Islam, as they often like to say. You cannot separate what they do from your religion, first and foremost because they state explicitly that they act in Islam's name. The same is true in posts made here against other religions--you quote the Qur'an, etc. to justify yourselves. Yet you also turn around and say that it in no way reflects your faith when you explicitly quote your holy book? Now that is what I would call strange.

SadLad, you might be referring to your post where you asked some questions. I will answer them more thoroughly then:

And by the way, who is that son that god give him his love.

John 3:16 states that God so loved the world. Because God loves us, He gave His only Son to redeem us from sin.

open-minded, well-educated people will never think of greatness as being mighty.

Not really. Actually most open-minded people, surprisingly, see power and glory in being mighty. Jesus teaches otherwise, and shows by example that to be great, one has to be lowly. Do we see our parents to be mighty? Ask a child, and for him the greatest and strongest would be his dad.

Giving god human's qualities is one of the ways.

How can that be when we affirm we're made in the image and likeness of God as stated in Genesis? Does that mean then it must be an affront to God that we are made in His image? Of course not. It's not disrespect that Jesus, as the Emmanuel, should take on the form of man. It is actually the highest honour God can bestow upon us; in turn, He is honoured as well because He made us and took on our appearance. Now how can it be dishonour that God might have a human form when He made this form?

I believe that if my friend needs me, i will do my best to help him and not everything i can do.

By doing your best means you'll actually do everything in your power to save him, even if it means giving up your life. Only someone who does not value that friendship would look for limitations, and with it excuses to not act. A true friend, on the other hand, will not even think twice of his own safety, as long as the other is safe. Unless you've rewritten how it is to be a friend and see that you must be limited in acting things out.

The problem here is that our holy book, the Quran, was gathered in one book few years after our Prophet's (pbuh) death

So? That is proof? That isn't even proof. No one in his right mind can call that as "proof". Do try again.

logical satisfying answers

That indeed is ripe coming from you and your flock, who's concept of a 'logical satisfying answer' is saying 'It says so in the Quran'.

:gap:

San you repeat the same thing in every thread...

Millo... you are saying that Jesus is the only son to God and he has no other sons... well what about this?

Many people tell us "but the Bible clearly says that Jesus is the Son of God. How can you say that Jesus is not God's only begotten son when Jesus says it so clearly in black and white in the Bible?" Well, first of all, as seen in the previous section, we first need to know the language of his people, the language of the Jews to whom he was speaking. Let us see how they understood this proclamation.

Let us begin by asking: How many sons does the Bible tell us that God Almighty has?

Jacob is God's son and firstborn: "Israel is my son, even my firstborn" Exodus 4:22.
Solomon is God's son "He shall build an house for my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom for ever. I will be his father, and he shall be my son": 2 Samuel 7:13-14.
Ephraim is God's firstborn: "for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn" Jeremiah 31:9 (who is God's firstborn? Israel or Ephraim?).
Adam is the son of God "Adam, which was the son of God" Luke 3:38.
Common people (you and me) are the sons of God:
"Ye are the children of the LORD your God" Deuteronomy 14:1.
"For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God" Romans 8:14.
"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name" John 1:12.
"That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;" Philippians 2:15.
"Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: ... now are we the sons of God" 1 John 3:1-2.
"When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?" Job 38:7.
"Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD," Job 2:1.
"Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD," Job 1:6.
"when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men," Genesis 6:4.
"That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they [were] fair" Genesis 6:2
As we can see, the use of the term "son of God" when describing normal human beings was not at all an uncommon practice among Jesus' people.

Well then, was Jesus the only begotten son of God?

Read Psalms 2:7 : "I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me (King David, King), Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee"

Indeed, the Jews are even referred to as much more than this in the Bible, and this is indeed the very trait which Jesus (pbuh) held against them. When the Jews picked up stones to stone Jesus (pbuh) he defended himself with the following words

"Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, 'I said, Ye are gods?' If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken..." John 10:34:

(he was referring to Psalms 82:6 "I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High..") As we can see from these and many other verses like them, "son of God" in the language of the Jews was a very innocent term used to describe a loyal servant of God. Whether the translators and editors chose to write it as "Son of God" (with a capital S) in reference to Jesus and "son of God" (with a small S) in reference to everyone else does not diminish the fact that in the original language, both cases are exactly the same. Are we beginning to see what drove the most learned men of the Anglican Church to recognize the truth? But let us move on.

Originally posted by Milliardo Peacecraft

God so loved the world. Because God loves us, He gave His only Son to redeem us from sin.


Now who is this god's son?!
YOU'RE confusing me :confused: Somtimes you say that god is the son and sometimes you say that god did so and so to the son. Reading your above quote indicates that god and the son are not the same person. I can't understand the concept of the god being the son and the holy spirit. Plz explain things using logic and something people can understand and not quotes from your book.
Originally posted by Milliardo Peacecraft
Not really. Actually most open-minded people, surprisingly, see power and glory in being mighty. Jesus teaches otherwise, and shows by example that to be great, one has to be lowly. Do we see our parents to be mighty? Ask a child, and for him the greatest and strongest would be his dad.
[/B]
Are you one of those who associate power and glory with being mighty?!!
A child considers his father great and strong but does he consider his dad a mighty person?!!!
You must understand that we're not talking about greatness or glory but mighty.
Originally posted by Milliardo Peacecraft
How can that be when we affirm we're made in the image and likeness of God as stated in Genesis? Does that mean then it must be an affront to God that we are made in His image? Of course not. [/B]
Don't tell a person who does not believe on your Genesis that it says so and so for it's really a waste of time and kinda going around a loop.

Originally posted by Milliardo Peacecraft It's not disrespect that Jesus, as the Emmanuel, should take on the form of man. It is actually the highest honour God can bestow upon us; in turn, He is honored as well because He made us and took on our appearance.
[/B]
In your previous posts you indicates that you are not happy to be compared to animals or take their shapes but you see it ok to your god to take weak, imperfect creatures' shapes and you consider it as an honor to your god. What a sick mentality.!
Originally posted by Milliardo Peacecraft
Now how can it be dishonor that God might have a human form when He made this form?
[/B]
Because the form he created was not perfect in many ways and it's a disrespect to a perfect creator to take an imperfect created humans' shape and behave the way these imperfect created humans do. It's disrespect to say that this perfect creator needed to go to the bathroom and ate and drunk like humans did. Humans eat and drink because they are imperfect and they need eating and drinking. If your god did the same thing then he is not perfect.
Originally posted by Milliardo Peacecraft
By doing your best means you'll actually do everything in your power to save him, even if it means giving up your life. Only someone who does not value that friendship would look for limitations, and with it excuses to not act. A true friend, on the other hand, will not even think twice of his own safety, as long as the other is safe. Unless you've rewritten how it is to be a friend and see that you must be limited in acting things out.
[/B]
even though I will never compare god to humans but As I said before, there must be limitition to what a friend will do to help his friends. God will not ruin his dignity and made himslf down for saving humans the same as you , as I believe, will not ruin your dignity (steal or commit adultry for the sake of helping your friends.
Originally posted by Milliardo Peacecraft
So? That is proof? That isn't even proof. No one in his right mind can call that as "proof". Do try again.[/font] [/B]
Originally posted by SadLad
Regarding your book, the "official" new testament of the bible was put together in the 4th century AD and as MoonChild made it clear some documents of the Bible were refused because the leaders of the church or whatever you call them refused them. Did those leaders live in the same era Prophet Juses lived in? How could they tell what were divine inspiration and what were not? What the standards did they have for refusing any ducoment?Who wrote the documents which they refused and why did they write them? Did that mean that there were some people trying to corrupt the bible if it wasn't already corrupted?
[/B]

keep up the good work Sadlad :app:

Originally posted by Blood Rose
San you repeat the same thing in every thread...

Millo... you are saying that Jesus is the only son to God and he has no other sons... well what about this?

Yes, you've given good examples as such. Remember that we Christians do see everyone to be children of God, and that is why He is called Father. In the Old Testament in fact, the Israelites are called the children of God. However, this does not take away the fact that Jesus is the one and only begotten Son of His in a very literal sense. In a more figurative sense, all of us are God's children, though because of sin we are not directly linked to God. Jesus, perfect as He is, is the only one who can claim this Sonship without fear of contradiction, as He is one who is the Lamb, spotless and blameless, as we see in Revelation.

YOU'RE confusing me Somtimes you say that god is the son and sometimes you say that god did so and so to the son. Reading your above quote indicates that god and the son are not the same person. I can't understand the concept of the god being the son and the holy spirit. Plz explain things using logic and something people can understand and not quotes from your book.

Yes, the Trinity is indeed not easy to understand. Even most theologians do not understand the inner workings of the Trinity. As again said, the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God; yet there is only one God and not three. This is the mystery that is the Trinity: one God in three divine Persons. Again, remember that we cannot fully know God (or else He is not God), as in the Psalms it is stated that He is beyond all our understanding.

A child considers his father great and strong but does he consider his dad a mighty person?!!!

Have you been a father yet, or have you dealt with children? You will not ask this question if you have. It shows you do not know children. For a child, his father is great, strong, mighty--he is Superman in every possible way imaginable. The child believes his father can do no wrong, and he looks up to him as a sort of hero. So to answer your question, yes. Please don't be a wiseguy on this one. You don't even know children, I can tell.

Don't tell a person who does not believe on your Genesis that it says so and so for it's really a waste of time and kinda going around a loop.

You don't believe in Genesis? My, that is surprising SadLad. You are really sad now. Let's see...Islam affirms that it is the people of the Book--the first 5 books of the Old Testament in which both Christians and Jews affirm. These books include Genesis. So if you don't believe--that makes Islam nothing but a lie, and you've been fed with nothing but lies, since in one breath you affirm to believe in these books and in another say you don't. And yet time and again the ties that bind these 3 great religions is the Torah, known also as the Pentateuch, the first 5 books of the Old Testament wherein the Creation and the Laws of Moses are all contained. So SadLad, you don't believe? See, you contradict without even knowing what you post. Go brush up on your religion again before replying next time. You are going down fast, just like those who tried before you also did.

god to take weak, imperfect creatures' shapes and you consider it as an honor to your god

And you see yourself as a lowly being, not created in God's image? See, SadLad, that's again why you're sad: you do not see yourself to be created in God's image. You think you are a nothing. And that's all you'll ever be--nothing.

Because the form he created was not perfect in many ways and it's a disrespect to a perfect creator to take an imperfect created humans' shape and behave the way these imperfect created humans do.

And now you even repudate that you are made by God? Tell me, SadLad, when you look around you, do you see God? Do you marvel at His creation--the birds, the trees, the mountains, and everything else? If you do, do you think of them as imperfect, as a dishonour to the Creator? When you look at your fellow human, do you feel it is a dishonour to be with him? See, SadLad, that is again why you're sad: you do not see yourself to be made in God's image. For you, you are nothing. Like I said, that's all you'll ever be--nothing. You are nothing; therefore, from this day hence, I will treat you as nothing, because you see yourself as nothing. You are a worthless, base, nothing. A nobody. A useless nothing. You are indeed sad.

there must be limitition to what a friend will do to help his friends

Not only are you nothing, but you are a worthless friend as well. If you're my friend, I will steer clear of you, because if I am in need, you might not help me. I cannot trust you then. So again, you are sad, SadLad, because you are a nothing, a worthless friend. You are worthless, useless, and a nothing. You do not live, because you are nothing.

Peace :)

And you see yourself as a lowly being, not created in God's image? See, SadLad, that's again why you're sad: you do not see yourself to be created in God's image. You think you are a nothing. And that's all you'll ever be--nothing.

so while god was a human like you mentioned here ?
how did he live his life ?
explain to me pleas ... Millora :confused:

and by the way Did he Eat and Sleep And Fart And Vomit and felt sick ??

just asking you .. some few qustions i need the answers :confused: :confused:

hey who told you that im related to islam ??
im not muslim okay :angre: :angre: :lost: :confused:

ohh one last qustion ..

he was a she or he was a he ?:confused:

Originally posted by I_am_Stupid
I only have these question for you Billiardo WarCraft:
1- Are you a true Christian?

Yes

2- If so do you go to church every sunday, if no .. why bother with all this?

Yes

3- Do you hate Arabs or mainly Muslims?

No, I don't hate Arabs or Muslims. I dn't like people who are ignorant, though, but that doesn't necessarily mean I hate. Let me put it much better: I have great respect for Islam, much more than you guys have so far shown for Christianity.

Can I be son of god too to get present and gifts at christmas, nobody ever bought me stuff :sorry: . Who is going to be my mother then :lost: . I need an answer :(


That will be superb !!!!!!

Originally posted by Milliardo Peacecraft
[B]Yes, you've given good examples as such. Remember that we Christians do see everyone to be children of God, and that is why He is called Father. In the Old Testament in fact, the Israelites are called the children of God. However, this does not take away the fact that Jesus is the one and only begotten Son of His in a very literal sense. In a more figurative sense, all of us are God's children, though because of sin we are not directly linked to God. Jesus, perfect as He is, is the only one who can claim this Sonship without fear of contradiction, as He is one who is the Lamb, spotless and blameless, as we see in Revelation.

Ahhh you are starting to confuse me here dear... :lost: I gave proof from the bible itself and you are just saying things without any proof.... How can you convince me that Jesus, peace be upon him, was the only son of God? :confused:

Originally posted by Milliardo Peacecraft

Yes, the Trinity is indeed not easy to understand. Even most theologians do not understand the inner workings of the Trinity.

?! If theologians can't understand your religion then most people can't understand it . What is the benefit of a religion who is talking about things not only normal people can't understand but even theologians ?!!
Originally posted by Milliardo Peacecraft
As again said, the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God; yet there is only one God and not three. This is the mystery that is the Trinity: one God in three divine Persons. [/B]
How can three = 1?!!!
Originally posted by Milliardo Peacecraft
Again, remember that we cannot fully know God (or else He is not God), as in the Psalms it is stated that He is beyond all our understanding.
[/B]
If you have known and understood how god looks like and you greeted and ate with him, you should know how could be three in one. It is something related to faith
Originally posted by Milliardo Peacecraft
Have you been a father yet, or have you dealt with children? You will not ask this question if you have. It shows you do not know children. For a child, his father is great, strong, mighty--he is Superman in every possible way imaginable. The child believes his father can do no wrong, and he looks up to him as a sort of hero. So to answer your question, yes. Please don't be a wiseguy on this one. You don't even know children, I can tell.[/B]
I'm afraid it's the opposite coz I'm still insisting that my father is a great person but never mighty. He is kind and kinda great superman who uses his power in the right place. And by the way, we are not talking here only about what children think, but about what children adults, and olds think about mighty and do they asossite it with power coz you said in one of your previous posts "We often think of greatness as being mighty. In Jesus He shows us that it is not really so, and teaches that it is the lowly and humble who will inherit God's kingdom, not the mighty."

Originally posted by Milliardo Peacecraft
You don't believe in Genesis? My, that is surprising SadLad. You are really sad now. Let's see...Islam affirms that it is the people of the Book--the first 5 books of the Old Testament in which both Christians and Jews affirm. These books include Genesis. So if you don't believe--that makes Islam nothing but a lie, and you've been fed with nothing but lies, since in one breath you affirm to believe in these books and in another say you don't. And yet time and again the ties that bind these 3 great religions is the Torah, known also as the Pentateuch, the first 5 books of the Old Testament wherein the Creation and the Laws of Moses are all contained. So SadLad, you don't believe? See, you contradict without even knowing what you post. Go brush up on your religion again before replying next time. You are going down fast, just like those who tried before you also did.[/B]


Hold your horse..
According to Cambridge Dictionary Genesis = the first book of the Bible, which describes how God made the world. I believe as all Muslims believe that the Bible you having today is not the divine Bible which Prophet Jueses came with. It has been corrupted so i shouldn't believe in a human made book. Should I?!

Originally posted by Milliardo Peacecraft
And you see yourself as a lowly being, not created in God's image? See, SadLad, that's again why you're sad: you do not see yourself to be created in God's image. You think you are a nothing. And that's all you'll ever be--nothing.[/B]
I'm a super created thing compared to the other created things, but yes I'm nothing compared to the one who created me and all those things and who is able to take my soul in a second. I believe as any wise person will believe that the creator of this world must be someone who is similar to no weak creatures and whose characteristics are similar to none.

Originally posted by Milliardo Peacecraft
And now you even repudate that you are made by God? Tell me, SadLad, when you look around you, do you see God? [/B]

No, I don't see god but I see his ultimate power and wisdom.
Originally posted by Milliardo Peacecraft
Do you marvel at His creation--the birds, the trees, the mountains, and everything else? If you do, do you think of them as imperfect, as a dishonour to the Creator?
[/B]
Yes I do marvel at them and I do see them imperfect. If birds are perfect, they will not need the small branches that the trees provide them, they will not need the water that the ground provides them and they will not need someone to free them in case they are seized in a cage. If they are perfect they will stand with themselves and will need help from no one.
About the dishonor, yes, it is a dishonor to god to be similar to these weak birds shapes
Originally posted by Milliardo Peacecraft
When you look at your fellow human, do you feel it is a dishonour to be with him?
[/B]
No
Originally posted by Milliardo Peacecraft
see, SadLad, that is again why you're sad: you do not see yourself to be made in God's image. For you, you are nothing. Like I said, that's all you'll ever be--nothing. You are nothing; therefore, from this day hence, I will treat you as nothing, because you see yourself as nothing. You are a worthless, base, nothing. A nobody. A useless nothing. You are indeed sad.
[/B]
I'm not sure if it was meant as an insult, but to correct you, "I'm a thing but not a perfect thing and i believe that my god is the only perfect thing."
Originally posted by Milliardo Peacecraft
Not only are you nothing, but you are a worthless friend as well. If you're my friend, I will steer clear of you, because if I am in need, you might not help me. I cannot trust you then. So again, you are sad, SadLad, because you are a nothing, a worthless friend. You are worthless, useless, and a nothing. You do not live, because you are nothing. [/B]
Seems you were not able to answer the questions so you decided to go on insulting and saying bad words about me. :rolleyes: Yet if you believe that I'm a worthless, useless, and a nothing only because i believe that there must be limitations to what a friend shall do to help his friends, answer the following questions
Will you sell your body for the sake of helping your friend?
Will you change you religion if its the only way to help your friend?
Will you steal money to help your bankrupted friend?

Peace :)

Stupid, why do you speak of your people in that manner ?

Originally posted by SadLad
?! If theologians can't understand your religion then most people can't understand it . What is the benefit of a religion who is talking about things not only normal people can't understand but even theologians ?!!

Why--you understand God? Are you God? Is it not that God transcends all human understanding? What are you complaining about then?

How can three = 1?!!!

Now that is a mystery, isn't it? Let me ask you: how can God be here and there at the same time? How can He be in the past, present, and future at the same time? If these are things you cannot explain, then would it not be reasonable that for God 3=1 is a possibility as well?

If you have known and understood how god looks like and you greeted and ate with him, you should know how could be three in one. It is something related to faith

You got it, sherlock--it is a matter of faith. Now go and stop whining.

I'm afraid it's the opposite coz I'm still insisting that my father is a great person but never mighty. He is kind and kinda great superman who uses his power in the right place. And by the way, we are not talking here only about what children think, but about what children adults, and olds think about mighty and do they asossite it with power coz you said in one of your previous posts "We often think of greatness as being mighty. In Jesus He shows us that it is not really so, and teaches that it is the lowly and humble who will inherit God's kingdom, not the mighty."

If you think he is superman, then don't you think he is mighty? What was Superman if not mighty? And that's a fictional character. God isn't fiction.


Hold your horse..
According to Cambridge Dictionary Genesis = the first book of the Bible, which describes how God made the world. I believe as all Muslims believe that the Bible you having today is not the divine Bible which Prophet Jueses came with. It has been corrupted so i shouldn't believe in a human made book. Should I?!

Yes, but then Genesis is also in the Torah, and the Bible incorporated much of the Old Testament manuscripts into it. So then it comes from one source. You don't believe in that source then?

I'm a super created thing compared to the other created things, but yes I'm nothing compared to the one who created me and all those things and who is able to take my soul in a second. I believe as any wise person will believe that the creator of this world must be someone who is similar to no weak creatures and whose characteristics are similar to none.

He is both similar and not similar. God is the created and the uncreated. He is everything and in all things. So to say that He is not similar to anything per se would be incorrect, don't you think? Again you are sad, SadLad.

No, I don't see god but I see his ultimate power and wisdom.

Then it must be sad that you don't see God in all of creation.

Yes I do marvel at them and I do see them imperfect. If birds are perfect, they will not need the small branches that the trees provide them, they will not need the water that the ground provides them and they will not need someone to free them in case they are seized in a cage. If they are perfect they will stand with themselves and will need help from no one. About the dishonor, yes, it is a dishonor to god to be similar to these weak birds shapes

Would it be completely dishonourable? Or would you not celebrate in the fact that through all living creatures God is honoured, because He made them?

No

I'm not sure if it was meant as an insult, but to correct you, "I'm a thing but not a perfect thing and i believe that my god is the only perfect thing."

Seems you were not able to answer the questions so you decided to go on insulting and saying bad words about me. :rolleyes: Yet if you believe that I'm a worthless, useless, and a nothing only because i believe that there must be limitations to what a friend shall do to help his friends, answer the following questions
Will you sell your body for the sake of helping your friend?
Will you change you religion if its the only way to help your friend?
Will you steal money to help your bankrupted friend?

All of these questions, would I do it for my friend's sake? Yes, if to help my friend, I will gladly go the extra mile and help him. If I have to be in jail, so be it. That is the point of Jesus: He died for us, yet He doesn't have to. As affirmed, He is the blameless Lamb, spotless and sinless. Yet He bore our sins for our sake, took the penalty we should take. So He went the extra mile for us. Would you the same for a friend? You would be indeed worthless and a nothing if you will not, and will just say to your friend to go away because you'd rather save yourself first than him. I am sure your friend will curse and spit on you for the rest of his life, and will gladly spit on your grave as well when the time comes, because when he was in need you turned away from him. Conversely, you might have sold your body for him, but when the time comes surely he will remember what you have done, and will repay you very much because of what you did. That is what friendship is. Again, if you do not understand this concept, then I will call you nothing and a worthless person, not worth it at all to be a friend to anyone. Think of this, SadLad. One day you will come to the same choices you have asked me, and then you will realize how it is to be a friend.

I'm pretty busy this month, prjects, exams, final tests ...etc, but mind you that as soon as the one month finishes, i'll come to hamar your claims. ;)

Originally posted by Vargher
While I was thinking about Christianity
Some thing came into my mind and as usual I am confused??

We know that Christians says that Jesus is the son of god and mother Marie
Is his mother and so that means god is father of Jesus

So that means god slept with mother Marie and then Jesus came out to this world as a prophet.

My main questions:
If god had sex for once in his life time doesn’t he want to have sex again?

If he had sex that means he is a human isn’t it?

Humans are sinful and they eat sleep and fart vomit and …. More

All I want to say that christens god is a human.

And by the way while I was reading some Islamic books
It was written that “Allah” can never be seen.

So what do you people say?

:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

I GUESS THAT VARGHER OR WHAT EVERE WAS A NON-BLIEVER LOOOOOOL but until now no one did answer his qustions loool:D

That is because no one can be bothered talking to mutant androids.

Originally posted by Shakoosh Kabir
That is because no one can be bothered talking to mutant androids.

im bothered im really bothred those post must be edited his attacking the chritians how come ...

we are here to respect all religions how come he attack christians im angry :angre: :fire:

Originally posted by METAL PRIEST
his attacking the chritians how come ...

we are here to respect all religions how come he attack christians im angry :angre: :fire:

I am indeed attacking the cretins.

Originally posted by Milliardo Peacecraft
Why--you understand God? Are you God? Is it not that God transcends all human understanding? What are you complaining about then?.[/font] [/B]
I'm not God. I'm not the one who created u. Allah is the one who created Jueses, u and me and everything in this world. But using my mind, i can tell what can be said about the creator of everything and of you and me.


Originally posted by Milliardo Peacecraft
If you think he is superman, then don't you think he is mighty? What was Superman if not mighty? And that's a fictional character. God isn't fiction.
[/font] [/B]
I wouldn't say he is mighty, but i'll say he is great and powerful. Might is some how associated with force and violence.
Originally posted by Milliardo Peacecraft
Yes, but then Genesis is also in the Torah, and the Bible incorporated much of the Old Testament manuscripts into it. So then it comes from one source. You don't believe in that source then?
.[/font] [/B]
Both the Torah and the Bible are corrupted. Should i believe in corrupted books?! I believe in the concept of Genesis as the Quran stated it and not as the corrupted Bible or Torah state it.
Originally posted by Milliardo Peacecraft
God is the created and the uncreated.
[/font] [/B]
What the hell does this sentence mean? R u pulling my legs?! If God is uncreated, he can not be created.
Originally posted by Milliardo Peacecraft
Then it must be sad that you don't see God in all of creation.[/font] [/B]
][COLOR=deeppink]As i said before, i don't see god himself but i see his ultimate power and wisdom in everything.
Originally posted by Milliardo Peacecraft
Would it be completely dishonourable? Or would you not celebrate in the fact that through all living creatures God is honored, because He made them?
.[/font] [/B]
it is a dishonor to god to be similar to the weak things' shapes He created.
Originally posted by Milliardo Peacecraft
All of these questions, would I do it for my friend's sake? Yes, if to help my friend, I will gladly go the extra mile and help him. If I have to be in jail, so be it. That is the point of Jesus: He died for us, yet He doesn't have to. As affirmed, He is the blameless Lamb, spotless and sinless. Yet He bore our sins for our sake, took the penalty we should take. So He went the extra mile for us. Would you the same for a friend? You would be indeed worthless and a nothing if you will not, and will just say to your friend to go away because you'd rather save yourself first than him. I am sure your friend will curse and spit on you for the rest of his life, and will gladly spit on your grave as well when the time comes, because when he was in need you turned away from him. Conversely, you might have sold your body for him, but when the time comes surely he will remember what you have done, and will repay you very much because of what you did. That is what friendship is. Again, if you do not understand this concept, then I will call you nothing and a worthless person, not worth it at all to be a friend to anyone. Think of this, SadLad. One day you will come to the same choices you have asked me, and then you will realize how it is to be a friend. So, do i understand from your reply that ur highness will be a prostitute and change ur religion just because ur friend needs this. If ur answer is yes, then i doubt that I’m talking to a sane person and i better no more discuss anything with you for u understand nothing about dignity and honor.

I believe in the concept of Genesis as the Quran stated it and not as the corrupted Bible or Torah state it.

Which version of the Quran would that be ? The original one or Uthmans ?

Originally posted by sanwin25
Which version of the Quran would that be ? The original one or Uthmans ?

cut the crap will ya sandwich man . Quran is the same Quran since day one so if you can live with it just hit your head on the wall like this if you don't know :bang: ...

and what if you haev 7 versions of bible , i mean do you want us to have seven versions of quran or what ??!!! why do you bother your fricking self ... grow up and go and be a good christian .. if we are muslims just live us the hell alone okay , we didn't come to you and asked you to be a muslims although i believe you used to be one though :rolleyes: anyhow ...

if you can answer questions as they are cut your baby acts , and yes answer vargher's and demon of the fall questions and lead them to the right path if you can.....

peace

Gingerbreadman,

The crap would be in the following statement:

I believe in the concept of Genesis as the Quran stated it and not as the corrupted Bible or Torah state it.

I conveniently highlighted the crap so you don't miss it this time.

Please tell me where the original Quran is..

On the other hand, please don't, because no one has been able to answer that till date, so I don't expect any progress on that front from you.

Originally posted by sanwin25
Gingerbreadman,

The crap would be in the following statement:



I conveniently highlighted the crap so you don't miss it this time.

Please tell me where the original Quran is..

On the other hand, please don't, because no one has been able to answer that till date, so I don't expect any progress on that front from you.

and where is the real bible my darlig ??!!!!

after all we are all bread and biscutes .. what type of sandwich are you ??!! at least i know that i a ginger breadman :shut:

You tell me where the real Quran is and I'll tell you about the Bible.

As far as sandwitches go, I am partial to ham and roast pork.

Originally posted by sanwin25
You tell me where the real Quran is and I'll tell you about the Bible.

As far as sandwitches go, I am partial to ham and roast pork.

i should have guessed it before ???!!! ...


but you did't answer my question , cuz as you said ham sandwich our quran has two versions , you seem to know where they came from ... but most of us don't know where the real bible is , and you seem to know so ....

according to what you have said earilier i am not going to anwser your question till i get mine ya 7elwa

Please tell me where the original Quran is..

On the other hand, please don't, because no one has been able to answer that till date, so I don't expect any progress on that front from you.

Be that it is may.

i think guys better 2 leave sanwin alone ... he undestood islam very well ..and he knows that islam is true ..

when ALLAh wants to giude him he 'll do ..other wise ..

Dream on.

Not going to happen. Ever.

Why leave something good anyway ? (Why would I want to become something hateful like you, with hatred for a race of people I have never even met just because some book tells me to ? With hatread for the majority of people on this earth just because they don't believe in the same book I do ?)

Originally posted by sanwin25
Dream on.

Not going to happen. Ever.

Why leave something good anyway ? (Why would I want to become something hateful like you, with hatred for a race of people I have never even met just because some book tells me to ? With hatread for the majority of people on this earth just because they don't believe in the same book I do ?)
i am hating who hates me only ....i love to see jews killed daily in palestine bcuz they desreve it ..other wise they should leave our LAND,
i love to see americans when they get scares from the resisitances....and hates comes from hates ... was very simple ...

and about you I GUESS that you are following who has the power only if u lived and sow islam has the power as befor ....no wonder if u become muslim

You are truly sick in the head.:yuck:

Originally posted by sanwin25
You are truly sick in the head.:yuck:
not like you

and stick on the topic

Enough chit-chat!
Let's stick to the topic. :yawn:

Originally posted by sanwin25
Dream on.

Not going to happen. Ever.

Why leave something good anyway ? (Why would I want to become something hateful like you, with hatred for a race of people I have never even met just because some book tells me to ? With hatread for the majority of people on this earth just because they don't believe in the same book I do ?)

just one question , are you a true christian ??!!!

Yes.

What's it to you anyway ?

Originally posted by sanwin25
Yes.

OHHH!!

ooh ? Do you want to become one as well Ringo ?

Originally posted by sanwin25
ooh ? Do you want to become one as well Ringo ?
NO dear , but , just i am wondering .. true christian couldn't answer easy questions according to him :confused:

Maybe I just didn't want to explain anything to you ?

Talking about 'true' anything, you didn't do too well answering any of the questions we put to you ringo. Remember all those questions about Uthman ?

You might also want to give that thread on Slavery a shot.

Originally posted by sanwin25
Maybe I just didn't want to explain anything to you ?

:app: :app: Good excuse


well... i challenge once more here :rolleyes: