i just opened this thread to continue our discusiing ...

ii think that thread christian should answer our questions there and here we can discuss about quran or what they think about bunring the original quan ...

this my quote in another thread

Originally posted by silver_ring
quran has confirmed it ....

if Uthaman (r) burned the original one so do you thing he adds version or he deleted any other ??? if he did soo .. then i dont think that can be any MIRACLES in the quran !!right?
i want to explain for you some thing proofs that original one its the same one which we have now days ..

how??

Sura Al-Nassr(Triumph)is the last sura revealed to Prophet Muhammed.
The number of this sura in the Quran is 110 and it has three verses. and this sura consists of 19 Arabic words and the first verse consists of 19 Arabic letters. i am talking according to arabic words...
http://www3.alislam.org/verses/110-001.gif
http://www3.alislam.org/verses/110-002.gif
http://www3.alislam.org/verses/110-003.gif
http://www3.alislam.org/verses/110-004.gif

[110:1] In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful.
[110:2] When the help of Allah comes, and the victory,
[110:3] And thou seest men entering the religion of Allah in troops,
[110:4] Glorify thy Lord, with His praise, and seek forgiveness of Him. Surely He is Oft Returning with compassion.



islams scholers Studying this Sura which showed that the gematrical (Numerical) value of its verses are as follows :


Verse 1 has 1638 Gematrical value.
Verse 2 has 1771
and verse 3 has 2715

the total gematrical values of the three verses come to 6124 knowing this was the last sura revealed to the Prophet,

if you add this number 6124 to the number of the sura in the Quran, which110 we get: 110+6124= 6234 which is the total number of the (numbered) verses in the Quran

do u think Uthamn when he burned the quran knows that ??and he made every thing ready ???

well...lets continue


A quick observation is that Sura 110 has 3 numbered verses

and one unnumbered verse, this make the total 110+3+1 =114 which is the total number of the Suras in the Quran

and again here do u think Uthamn was so clever in the a counting ...??????


of cours this is the last revelation to the Prophet Muhammed ..ALLah put his code to confirm the total number of both the verses and the suras in the Quran


i hope that u now convinced :rolleyes:

Ahem.

You make your argument based on the assertion that Sura 110 has 3 verses (even put it in red).

Then you post the translation of Sura 110, which clearly shows that it has 4 verses.

How does this error change the math?

Oh, and what is the "gematrical value"? It's not defined. If you provide the equation, maybe I can help re-calculate for you.

What's the gematrical value of verse 4? Don't you have to add that in, too?

Maybe there is a whole section of the Quran MISSING!!! :eek:

that was so clear for educated women to understand

s, there was only three verses my dear .

Silver Ring ...

The number of this sura in the Quran is 110 and it has three verses.

And

[110:1] In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful.
[110:2] When the help of Allah comes, and the victory,
[110:3] And thou seest men entering the religion of Allah in troops,
[110:4] Glorify thy Lord, with His praise, and seek forgiveness of Him. Surely He is Oft Returning with compassion.

Counting from 1 to 4, gives me a 4. Atleast that's what my maths teacher taught me.

Or is it yet another mistake by a Muslim brother? (Wonder why it always ends up being mistakes, and more mistakes)

Originally posted by silver_ring
s, there was only three verses my dear .

Do you even read the stuff you post? :rolleyes:

Shinoda has kindly spelled it out for you.

The first verse doesn't count; that's what you say when you begin reading Quran :duh:

Confusion, confusion.

Ahem.

So, proved by Gematrical (?) Mathematics.

Astounding.

Moonie, remember those 'Think of a number, divide it by 5 ... multiply by 10 ... add the digits together ... add 7 ... blah-blah-blah ... isn't it 6234 that you got?'

:bored:

[110:1] In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful.

this verse should be started in all "suras" in the quran except surat "altawaba/9"

surat "alnassar" consiste .,three verses

Verse 1 has 1638 Gematrical value.
Verse 2 has 1771
and verse 3 has 2715


means 1638+1771+2715=6124

The number of this sura in the Quran is 110


ok my students :D

now add 6124+110=6234

sp this number 6234 is the total number of the (numbered) verses in the Quran....understood???


ok next step :D

the number of this sura in the quran ..its 110 OK

how many verses we have ? 3 and plus first verse which should be in all suras (In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful) so it cames 3 +1=4


well...when we add them together 110+3+1=114 which is the total number of the Suras in the Quran

is it clear

if you know arabic it 'll be easy to undertsand :)

Are you sure it's only 6234 verses? Not 6346?

This reminds me of the guys who think that the entire Bible is a huge prophetic "code" ... thus proving it's divine origin ... and the guy who applied the same techniques to Moby **** and prophecied Robert Kennedy being shot :D

http://www.csicop.org/si/9711/bible-code.html

ps - I'm referring to a quite famous, and quite innocent, book title up there... darn those obscenity filters! LOL

Originally posted by MoonChild
Are you sure it's only 6234 verses? Not 6346?

you can go and check it up if u like :)

Originally posted by silver_ring
you can go and check it up if u like :)

http://www.submission.org/miracle/gematrical.html

"The miracle of the Quran is a phenomenal mathematical relationship of the placement of the chapters, the verses, the words of the Quran, and / or the numbers used in the Quran. For example the Quran has 114 chapters (19X6), The first verse 1:1 known as "Basmalla" consists of 19 letters. The total number of verses in the Quran is 6346, or 19X334. "

Originally posted by MoonChild
http://www.submission.org/miracle/gematrical.html

"The miracle of the Quran is a phenomenal mathematical relationship of the placement of the chapters, the verses, the words of the Quran, and / or the numbers used in the Quran. For example the Quran has 114 chapters (19X6), The first verse 1:1 known as "Basmalla" consists of 19 letters. The total number of verses in the Quran is 6346, or 19X334. "


what did u want to say exactly ?? i dent get ur piont

http://www.bible-codes.org/bible-code-prophecy-mene-tekel-babylon-Saddam.htm

I guess the bible couldn't have been corrupted, if we can find messages from God in the secret code! :D

Originally posted by silver_ring
what did u want to say exactly ?? i dent get ur piont

I went looking for more information about these "gematric values" and found different numbers to back up the "miraculous" claims... so just wondering which ones are right!

listen ..

Without the unnumbered Basmalahs, the number of verses in the Quran is 6234

The total number of verses in the Quran is 6346. This includes 112 unnumbered Basmalahs which occur at the beginning of the suras. (Note that the first sura has a numbered Basmalah).

Without the unnumbered Basmalahs, the number of verses in the Quran is 6234.

The mathematical structure of the Quran based on the number 19 makes this number an undeniable fact, and confirms that Sura 9 always had 127, and not 129 as has been disputed historically.

The total number of the verses in the Quran, 6346 is a multiple of 19 : 6346= 19 X 334

well..

The digits of 6346 add up to 19: 6+3+4+6= 19

second

When we add the numbers of all suras, plus the number of verses in every sura, plus the sum of verse numbers, the grand total for the whole Quran comes to 346199 or 19X 10007

Adding up the digits of the Quran's suras and verses produces a total of 1881, or 19 X 99.

.. now back to the our topic " suart alnnassar "

when we added the three verses 1638+1771+2715 it gaves us 6234 which the total of verses in the quran but not including "besammal"(the first verse in the quran )which is " In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful" this verse u 'll get it in all suras except one .. and when we add them with 6234 we 'll get 6346 --------hope you understood

6124 this number does not come by chance....so see how amazing is it ... the last sura brings the number of all verses in the quran


hope its clear for u now

Darn, I thought this was a thread that would even remotely prove something. Instead it proves squat. The question is--does Uthman know or doesn't know how to count and make changes? Of course without the original, there's no proof, is there now? We only have the word of Uthman to contend with--which is no proof, since the Qur'an as we know it now came from Uthman, and without the original, he can do whatever he please with it and claim it came from God, or whatever else he wants to make of it. No proof, silver, but a lot of the same old thing. Try again.

I will ask SR this question again.

Suppose someone very important to you (could be your parents) wrote a very very important letter to you. Something which you would treasure forever and like to read again and again.

What would you do to protect it ?

Answer the question directly. None of the usual changing the topic crap from you this time.

What would you do with it.

I think this would be a good time to have a nice cup of tea.

or take a nice long vacation...

:D

sanwin25,
u are the one who should take a long vacation. Instead of answering my questions, u are running around to other threads as usual.

I thought we had a thread to talk about Mr. Go to Islamic Sabla and see the thread titled to ur nick.

alkser001

Originally posted by sanwin25
I will ask SR this question again.

Suppose someone very important to you (could be your parents) wrote a very very important letter to you. Something which you would treasure forever and like to read again and again.

What would you do to protect it ?

Answer the question directly. None of the usual changing the topic crap from you this time.

What would you do with it.
of course i 'll keep it with me

Would you make a photocopy of the original, then burn the original, and preserve the copy ?

Or would you make a photocopy, keep the original in a very safe place, and use the copy to refer to everyday ?

Once again. as simple, direct answer is all that is needed.

Originally posted by sanwin25
Would you make a photocopy of the original, then burn the original, and preserve the copy ?

Or would you make a photocopy, keep the original in a very safe place, and use the copy to refer to everyday ?

Once again. as simple, direct answer is all that is needed.

i got your point sanwin ,

first there was no original quran .. after our prophet death .. still they not collceted any thing .. but when Uthman(R) did burn the books it were made by ABo bukar (r) and HE was so scare of any one to change it so he MADE the oringinal one and made 4 comies , sent one to palestian and one to iraq and one to madeena and one in macca and one to hegaz i think so it was GOOD idea and all the muslims were agree with him

Originally posted by silver_ring
first there was no original quran

What? What's that again? No original Qur'an? So what was the basis of Uthman then? Or are you implying he made them all up?

after our prophet death .. stl they not collceted any thing .. but when Uthman(R) did burn the books it were made by ABo bukar (r) and HE was so scare of any one to change it so he MADE the oringinal one

First you said there was no original Qur'an, then you say Utman made the original. But it has been known that there was a prototype at least of the Qur'an that Uthman copied from, or else what you're saying is that Uthman made it all up, and that Uthman's copy is the original one, without any copy previously in existence. But that explanation would only undermine the credibility of Islam and the Prophet, and would put in doubt the role of Mohammed as Islam's founder. You might as well have said to forget him and just rely on Uthman's words.

i think so it was GOOD idea and all the muslims were agree with him

Without the original, the only recourse really is to either agree or die. Really when you look at it, the choice is rather obvious. Was it a good idea? I am not sure it was, and the more knowledgeable Muslim would likewise think it's not a good idea as well. It's only a good idea as far as Uthman is concerned, since he found a very good medium to maintain control, and in those times it is known that religion is a good idea to control the masses.

Really, silver, you're just digging your own grave here. The more you post, the more you bury yourself, shovel and all. See, your post even made less sense, and only further harmed Islam's reputation, not enhance it. You might want to rethink your replies first before you do more harm.

Originally posted by Milliardo Peacecraft
What? What's that again? No original Qur'an? So what was the basis of Uthman then? Or are you implying he made them all up?



First you said there was no original Qur'an, then you say Utman made the original. But it has been known that there was a prototype at least of the Qur'an that Uthman copied from, or else what you're saying is that Uthman made it all up, and that Uthman's copy is the original one, without any copy previously in existence. But that explanation would only undermine the credibility of Islam and the Prophet, and would put in doubt the role of Mohammed as Islam's founder. You might as well have said to forget him and just rely on Uthman's words.



:confused:

we are muslims remember that we believe that mohammed (S) recieved Quran from ALlah by Jibreal ...and our prophet (s) couldn't write nor read ... so do u think he could write it in a book or do u think the quran came ready in a book from ALLah ???

Without the original, the only recourse really is to either agree or die. Really when you look at it, the choice is rather obvious. Was it a good idea? I am not sure it was, and the more knowledgeable Muslim would likewise think it's not a good idea as well. It's only a good idea as far as Uthman is concerned, since he found a very good medium to maintain control, and in those times it is known that religion is a good idea to control the masses.

Really, silver, you're just digging your own grave here. The more you post, the more you bury yourself, shovel and all. See, your post even made less sense, and only further harmed Islam's reputation, not enhance it. You might want to rethink your replies first before you do more harm.

we are muslims remember that we believe that mohammed (S) recieved Quran from ALlah by Jibreal ...and our prophet (s) couldn't write nor read ... so do u think he could write it in a book or do u think the quran came ready in a book from ALLah ???

Really, silver, you're just digging your own grave here. The more you post, the more you bury yourself, shovel and all. See, your post even made less sense, and only further harmed Islam's reputation, not enhance it. You might want to rethink your replies first before you do more harm.[/font] [/B]

islam's reputation is known , and no one could harm it , and if u want to listen thats good other wise u make no sense towards islam .

Originally posted by silver_ring
we are muslims remember that we believe that mohammed (S) recieved Quran from ALlah by Jibreal ...and our prophet (s) couldn't write nor read ... so do u think he could write it in a book or do u think the quran came ready in a book from ALLah ???

Haven't you thought that he had followers even in his time, and that he could dictate the Qur'an to them? Peter was illiterate, yet it is known that he had a secretary to dictate his letters. Paul's secretary and chronicler was Luke. So it's not really impossible nor totally divine to have Mohammed have his own secretary to which he can dictate it to.

islam's reputation is known , and no one could harm it , and if u want to listen thats good other wise u make no sense towards islam .

By your words and actions, you could very well lower Islam before other's eyes, if not actually bring it down. This is likewise true in any organization, be they religious or civil.

I do not think we need to discuss this any further.

Silver Ring has finally seen the light, the light we were trying to show him all these months.

You don't destroy the most valuable thing in your life.

You protect and preserve it.

Unless you had a hidden agenda.

Originally posted by Milliardo Peacecraft
By your words and actions, you could very well lower Islam before other's eyes, if not actually bring it down. This is likewise true in any organization, be they religious or civil. [/B]
A nonsense

1) In order to clear any future confusion, why didn't Mohammed make sure that everything was formally written down at the time?

2) do you think its possible that Uthman created a code as a way of authenticationg the total number of both the verses and the suras in the Quran - after all, the Arabs were pretty good at numeracy........?

3) Incidentally, where did Mohammed say there was an authentication code?

3) There is absolutely no way that anyone can ever know that Uthman's version is exactly word for word the same as what Mohammed revealed

Originally posted by mr pinnochio
1) In order to clear any confusion, why didn't Mohammed make sure that everything was formally written down at the time?

2) do you think its possible that Uthman created a code as a way of authenticationg the total number of both the verses and the suras in the Quran - after all, the Arabs were pretty good at numeracy........?

3) Incidentally, where did Mohammed say there was an authentication code?

3) There is absolutely no way that anyone can ever know that Uthman's version is exactly word for word the same as what Mohammed revealed

whom did u ask?

Well, you haven't been much help at all.

Narrated Zaid bin Thabit:

Abu Bakr As-Siddiq sent for me when the people! of Yamama had been killed (i.e., a number of the Prophet's Companions who fought against Musailama). (I went to him) and found 'Umar bin Al-Khattab sitting with him. Abu Bakr then said (to me), "Umar has come to me and said: "Casualties were heavy among the Qurra' of the! Qur'an (i.e. those who knew the Quran by heart) on the day of the Battle of Yalmama, and I am afraid that more heavy casualties may take place among the Qurra' on other battlefields, whereby a large part of the Qur'an may be lost. Therefore I suggest, you (Abu Bakr) order that the Qur'an be collected." I said to 'Umar, "How can you do something which Allah's Apostle did not do?" 'Umar said, "By Allah, that is a good project. "Umar kept on urging me to accept his proposal till Allah opened my chest for it and I began to realize the good in the idea which 'Umar had realized." Then Abu Bakr said (to me). 'You are a wise young man and we do not have any suspicion about you, and you used to write the Divine Inspiration for Allah's Apostle. So you should search for (the fragmentary scripts of) the Qur'an and collect it in one book)." By Allah If they had ordered me to shift one of the mountains, it would not have been heavier for me than this ordering me to collect the Qur'an. Then I said to Abu Bakr, "How will you do something which Allah's Apostle did not do?" Abu Bakr replied, "By Allah, it is a good project." Abu Bakr kept on urging me to accept his idea until Allah opened my chest for what He had opened the chests of Abu Bakr and 'Umar. So I started looking for the Qur'an and collecting it from (what was written on) palmed stalks, thin white stones and also from the men who knew it by heart, till I found the last Verse of Surat At-Tauba (Repentance) with Abi Khuzaima Al-Ansari, and I did not find it with anybody other than him. The Verse is:

'Verily there has come unto you an Apostle (Muhammad) from amongst yourselves. It grieves him that you should receive any injury or difficulty..(till the end of Surat-Baraa' (At-Tauba) (9.128-129) Then the complete manuscripts (copy) of the Qur'an remained with Abu Bakr till he died, then with 'Umar till the end of his life, and then with Hafsa, the daughter of 'Umar.




Narrated Anas bin Malik:

Hudhaifa bin Al-Yaman came to Uthman at the time when the people of Sham and the people of Iraq were Waging war to conquer Arminya and Adharbijan. Hudhaifa was afraid of their (the people of Sham and Iraq) differences in the recitation of the Qur'an, so he said to 'Uthman, "O chief of the Believers! Save this nation before they differ about the Book (Quran) as Jews and the Christians did before." So 'Uthman sent a message to Hafsa saying, "Send us the manuscripts of the Qur'an so that we may compile the Qur'anic materials in perfect copies and return the manuscripts to you." Hafsa sent it to 'Uthman. 'Uthman then ordered Zaid bin Thabit, 'Abdullah bin AzZubair, Said bin Al-As and 'AbdurRahman bin Harith bin Hisham to rewrite the manuscripts in perfect copies. 'Uthman said to the three Quraishi men, "In case you disagree with Zaid bin Thabit on any point in the Qur'an, then write it in the dialect of Quraish, the Qur'an was revealed in their tongue." They did so, and when they had written many copies, 'Uthman returned the original manuscripts to Hafsa. 'Uthman sent to every Muslim province one copy of what they had copied, and ordered that all the other Qur'anic materials, whether written in fragmentary manuscripts or whole copies, be burnt. Said bin Thabit added, "A Verse from Surat Ahzab was missed by me when we copied the Qur'an and I used to hear Allah's Apostle reciting it. So we searched for it and found it with Khuzaima bin Thabit Al-Ansari. (That Verse was): 'Among the Believers are men who have been true in their covenant with Allah.' (33.23)

Oh Boy.

You just confirmed that the originals had been burned.

You didn't have any reason to explain why.

Originally posted by sanwin25
Oh Boy.

You just confirmed that the originals had been burned.

You didn't have any reason to explain why.

The Quran has been revealed to be recited in seven different ways.


Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Abbas:

Allah's Apostle said, "Gabriel recited the Qur'an to me in one way. Then I requested him (to read it in another way), and continued asking him to recite it in other ways, and he recited it in several ways till he ultimately recited it in seven different ways."


Narrated 'Umar bin Al-Khattab:

I heard Hisham bin Hakim reciting Surat Al-Furqan during the lifetime of Allah's Apostle and I listened to his recitation and noticed that he recited in several different ways which Allah's Apostle had not taught me. I was about to jump over him during his prayer, but I controlled my temper, and when he had completed his prayer, I put his upper garment around his neck and seized him by it and said, "Who taught you this Sura which I heard you reciting?" He replied, "Allah's Apostle taught it to me." I said, "You have told a lie, for Allah's Apostle has taught it to me in a different way from yours." So I dragged him to Allah's Apostle and said (to Allah's Apostle),

"I heard this person reciting Surat Al-Furqan in a way which you haven't taught me!" On that Allah's Apostle said, "Release him, (O 'Umar!) Recite, O Hisham!" Then he recited in the same way as I heard him reciting. Then Allah's Apostle said, "It was revealed in this way," and added, "Recite, O 'Umar!" I recited it as he had taught me. Allah's Apostle then said, "It was revealed in this way. This Qur'an has been revealed to be recited in seven different ways, so recite of it whichever (way) is easier for you (or read as much of it as may be easy for you)."

When Abu Baker collected the Quran it was done in seven ways and at Uthman time the Quran collected it in one way and other six ways dropped. Thats why 'Uthman said to the three Quraishi men, "In case you disagree with Zaid bin Thabit on any point in the Qur'an, then write it in the dialect of Quraish, the Qur'an was revealed in their tongue. And this is to get rid of the conflicts between tribs as some will say our way is better then your way. And as mentioned above "Save this nation before they differ about the Book (Quran) as Jews and the Christians did before"

Thats why 'Uthman said to the three Quraishi men, "In case you disagree with Zaid bin Thabit on any point in the Qur'an, then write it in the dialect of Quraish, the Qur'an was revealed in their tongue. And this is to get rid of the conflicts between tribs as some will say our way is better then your way, etc.


You finally admitted there were different versions.

Good job.

You are slowly improving.

Originally posted by sanwin25
You finally admitted there were different versions.

Good job.

You are slowly improving.

No different versions, it's the way the Quran recited.

Don't mix things.

Originally posted by sanwin25
You finally admitted there were different versions.

Good job.

You are slowly improving.

Not only that, but isn't it amusing that Muslims now claim there's only one version, and yet here we are told there are seven different versions, all of which don't even seem to agree with one another. Another amusing thing is that the angel Gibrail (Gabriel for Christians) was asked to recite it in several other ways. Hhmm..another strange occurence since no man can even command angels in either the Old or New Testaments, except Jesus Himself. And another question arises: why ask Gibrail to recite it in other ways? That would even be more stranger, and poses an even bigger problem than the one thought of by non-Christians with the Gospels having different point of views. Amusing.

Originally posted by Milliardo Peacecraft
Not only that, but isn't it amusing that Muslims now claim there's only one version, and yet here we are told there are seven different versions, all of which don't even seem to agree with one another. Another amusing thing is that the angel Gibrail (Gabriel for Christians) was asked to recite it in several other ways. Hhmm..another strange occurence since no man can even command angels in either the Old or New Testaments, except Jesus Himself. And another question arises: why ask Gibrail to recite it in other ways? That would even be more stranger, and poses an even bigger problem than the one thought of by non-Christians with the Gospels having different point of views. Amusing.

Well again I hope you understand simple english, who said seven versions!!! It's seven ways the Quran recited. I hope you see the difference, some words in the Quran can be read in two ways and one of this words in surat al Fatiha (the opening) the word "ma'aliki" is one way and another way to say "maliki". So both are correct.

And why do you find it strange when the best man Allah created request the angel Gibrail to recite the Quran.

And about your last question I believe the reason was to make it easy for different people with differet dialects to understand and read the holy Quran at that time.

IF ALL SEVEN WAYS ARE CORRECT THEN WHY WOULD UTHMAN WANT TO BURN OF THEM AND KEEP ONLY ONE ?

IF ALLAH HAD REVEALED ALL SEVEN WAYS WHO WAS UTHMAN TO DECIDE TO GET RID OF 6 OF THEM ?

ALLAH MUST HAVE HAD A PURPOSE OF REVEALING THEM IN SEVEN WAYS. ARE YOU SAYING THAT UTHMAN KNEW MORE THAN ALLAH AND THE PROPHET ? AFTER ALL, THE PROPHET DID NOT ISSUE INSTRUCTIONS TO BURN 6 OF THE WAYS ?

DO YOU MEAN THOSE SEVEN DIALECTS NO LONGER EXIST TODAY THAT ALLAH HAS TO SPECIFICALLY REVEAL IT FOR THOSE DIALECTS ?

DO YOU INCLUDE UTHMAN IN YOUR PROFESSION OF FAITH (THE SAHADA ?). YOU REALLY SHOULD, SINCE HE IS THE ONE WHO FINALLY DECIDED WHAT THE QURAN SHOULD LOOK LIKE AND WHICH RECITATION YOU SHOULD FOLLOW ! AFTER ALL, NEITHER ALLAH NOT MOHAMMED NOR THE ANGEL GABRIEL ISSUED INSTRUCTIONS ABOUT WHICH DIALECT SHOULD BE THE FINAL ONE.

(sorry about the capitals, but I just wanted to draw your attention to the important issue so you won't get distracted and talk about something else as usual)

Read this and you will get the answers, I put underline for some sentences:

Narrated Anas bin Malik:

Hudhaifa bin Al-Yaman came to Uthman at the time when the people of Sham and the people of Iraq were Waging war to conquer Arminya and Adharbijan. Hudhaifa was afraid of their (the people of Sham and Iraq) differences in the recitation of the Qur'an, so he said to 'Uthman, "O chief of the Believers! Save this nation before they differ about the Book (Quran) as Jews and the Christians did before." So 'Uthman sent a message to Hafsa saying, "Send us the manuscripts of the Qur'an so that we may compile the Qur'anic materials in perfect copies and return the manuscripts to you." Hafsa sent it to 'Uthman. 'Uthman then ordered Zaid bin Thabit, 'Abdullah bin AzZubair, Said bin Al-As and 'AbdurRahman bin Harith bin Hisham to rewrite the manuscripts in perfect copies. 'Uthman said to the three Quraishi men, "In case you disagree with Zaid bin Thabit on any point in the Qur'an, then write it in the dialect of Quraish, the Qur'an was revealed in their tongue." They did so, and when they had written many copies, 'Uthman returned the original manuscripts to Hafsa. 'Uthman sent to every Muslim province one copy of what they had copied, and ordered that all the other Qur'anic materials, whether written in fragmentary manuscripts or whole copies, be burnt. Said bin Thabit added, "A Verse from Surat Ahzab was missed by me when we copied the Qur'an and I used to hear Allah's Apostle reciting it. So we searched for it and found it with Khuzaima bin Thabit Al-Ansari. (That Verse was): 'Among the Believers are men who have been true in their covenant with Allah.' (33.23)

Originally posted by IceTea
Well again I hope you understand simple english, who said seven versions!!! It's seven ways the Quran recited.

Seven ways--seven vesions. If there's more than one way of reciting it, then obviously there is more than one version. Duh.

And why do you find it strange when the best man Allah created request the angel Gibrail to recite the Quran.

Because no man can command angels, unless He is the Son of God Himself. Though we are told that we shall judge even angels, as Paul said, that is at Judgment, and not at this time.

And about your last question I believe the reason was to make it easy for different people with differet dialects to understand and read the holy Quran at that time.

And so, as sanwin asked, it was right for Uthman to burn the 6 other copies now? Who made Uthman better than Allah or the Prophet then? Uthman is really saying that the Prophet is inferior than him, which should be questionable logic then.

P.S. Your narration doesn't even answer the question. You've posted it before, and it doesn't provide the answer.

Originally posted by Milliardo Peacecraft
Seven ways--seven vesions. If there's more than one way of reciting it, then obviously there is more than one version. Duh.
[/font]
How silly sometimes Christine members are!.
There was only "one version" of the Holy Quran but different ways of reciting. I think it's only the same as THE differences in pronouncing the word writer between Americans, Indian and British people. Americans pronounce the second "r" in the word writer as "r" but British people pronounce it as a schwa.
(Quote:)
'Uthman said to the three Quraishi men, "In case you disagree with Zaid bin Thabit on any point in the Qur'an, then write it in the dialect of Quraish, the Qur'an was revealed in their tongue."

So it was merely dialects matter. No diffrences in meaning not like your human-made book. ;)

Originally posted by Milliardo Peacecraft

Because no man can command angels, unless He is the Son of God Himself. .
.[/font]
Does your god has a son?
Who is his wife by the way? ;)

Don't be sad, lad.

There was only "one version" of the Holy Quran but different ways of reciting

Please try and tell us why Uthman burned all the original copies of the Quran ?

When Uthman got hold of all of the Qurans that were written in different dialects, and in some cases were altered to sound exactly like the other dialects, he ordered for them to get burnt because they did not use the proper Arabic that was revealed unto our beloved Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him, and in some cases their words were different because of this dialect difference. He then compiled all of the Noble Surahs (Chapters) of the Noble Quran that were already written during the time of Prophet Muhammad in the city of Madina and formed what we call today the one true copy of the "Noble Quran".
Conclusion:
The Noble Quran today is One True Perfect Divine Holy Book. It survived man's alterations and corruptions. The Noble Quran was all documented on the spot during Prophet Muhammad's times. The Noble Quran's numerical ordering of the Noble Verses and Chapters were also determined Prophet Muhammad through the inspirations of Allah Almighty. The Noble Quran was memorized and recited over and over again through the Muslims' five-daily prayers, the Holy Month of Ramadan, and other events and occasions where Muslims who perfected the memorization of the Noble Quran continuously refreshed their memories through teaching others.

So, it is beyond the shadow of the doubt that the numbering and the order of the Noble Chapters and Verses was already determined by our Prophet peace be upon him through the inspiration and guidance of Allah Almighty, and not by anyone else.



http://www.answering-christianity.com/quran/other_books.htm



Now I'm intersted to know when Jesuse (PBUH) died, as you claim, and when your fake book was documented. The period between the 2 events plz

Originally posted by Milliardo Peacecraft
Seven ways--seven vesions. If there's more than one way of reciting it, then obviously there is more than one version. Duh.


I think SadLad gave you a good explanation and the meaning won't change and not the whole Quran recited in seven ways just few words. And I don't expect you to understand this unless you understand the power of arabic language (language of the holy Quran).!

Originally posted by Milliardo Peacecraft
Because no man can command angels, unless He is the Son of God Himself. Though we are told that we shall judge even angels, as Paul said, that is at Judgment, and not at this time.

Angels are created to obey Allah only and only do what Allah order them to do, so if profet Mohammed PBUH asked angel "Gibreel" something it means Allah permission is there.

And how can you say that "we shall judge even angels" first of all who is you to judge you are just weak human who will be judged by Allah like others. Second thing why angels will be judged if they are created to obey Allah orders and don't have the free will. This is one of the false things which you have been told, like you have been told that God has son :rolleyes:


Originally posted by Milliardo Peacecraft
And so, as sanwin asked, it was right for Uthman to burn the 6 other copies now? Who made Uthman better than Allah or the Prophet then? Uthman is really saying that the Prophet is inferior than him, which should be questionable logic then.


Don't try to make useless analysis, first of all you should know that Uthman is one of the 10 people whom the profet Mohammed PBUH told them they will enter the heaven.

Originally posted by Milliardo Peacecraft
P.S. Your narration doesn't even answer the question. You've posted it before, and it doesn't provide the answer.

It provides all the answers read it again with open eyes and brain.

With all due respect, Icebag, SadLad merely reinstated what was posted before without giving the explanation why Uthman saw it fit to burn the original, inspite of it coming from the Prophet. See SadLad, Icebag, this is the point and crux of the whole issue. The explanations given are convenient excuses, but strip it away and you come to a disturbing conclusion: Uthman does not respect nor believe that what was revealed to the Prophet is true, so he made his own version and passed it off as if it were from the original. That wasn't really hard, is it now Icebag? You can give as many elaborate excuses as you like, but it comes back to those points: Uthman does not believe in the Prophet nor what was revealed to him, and what you have now is Uthman's rendition of the Qur'an, not the one known to the Prophet. Face it: you are just livng in your darkness and would not want this known, nor would you like to know it.

Originally posted by IceTea
Uthman sent to every Muslim province one copy of what they had copied, and ordered that all the other Qur'anic materials, whether written in fragmentary manuscripts or whole copies, be burnt.

How can you be sure that the retained version was not corrupted? Surely - being all powerful - Allah could have asked The Archangel Gabriel to hand over a CD containing the original, pure, uncorrupted version to Mohammed for posterity so that a certain English Sabla would not need to spend zillions of cyber hours splitting hairs on the issue 14 centuries later?

Milliardo Peacecraft

I'm tierd of you cause it seems you don't understand simple things or pretend to not understand but again Uthman could not change the Quran and there were hundreds or thousands people who had memorized it in his time. Uthman chose the Quraishi dialect to write the Quran by because it was Prophet Mohammed's dialect. "When Uthman got hold of all of the Qurans that were written in different dialects, and in some cases were altered to sound exactly like the other dialects, he ordered for them to get burnt because they did not use the proper Arabic that was revealed unto our beloved Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him", Also, since Uthman was granted heaven by our prophet, it's imposible to him to change the Quran.
I'm answering your question and don't expect you to understand because i'm sure you don't want to understand. Duh

This quote which was written by AP might help you ((peacecraft))
Originally posted by Arabian Princess

What happened to the original Quran?

it was given to hafsa, Omar's daughter .. and it was not burnt .. according to my knowledge ..it is in a museum in turkey!!

Why do you have seven versions of the Quran?

There were 7 versions .. only seven dilects and it was one of the reasons why the Quran was made into more copies inorder to make sure all muslims recite it the same way.
those dilects were because Islam was spread to different places. You don expect a non-arabic speaking muslim to pronounce the same as an arabic speaking person dont you?!

No, SadLad, you don't understand, so that's why you keep making these elaborate excuses. I will come back to this point, to which no Muslim can even answer, or hope to answer: why did Uthman saw it fit to burn the original copies--copies that are known to have come all the way back to the Prophet? It is in a museum in Turkey? When was it dated? Is it in Arabic? Curious if it is--the Prophet does not know Arabic, and according to you, is illiterate. Who wrote it? It would help, SadLad, that even among you, you are divided on this issue and that many agree that Uthman burned the original copies. Also, again I will have to point out, isn't it convenient for Uthman to burn copies before him so as to erase any evidence of him tampering with it? In fact, I would have done the same thing, ask my "scholars" to rewrite it, then pass it off as the "true" Qur'an. See, SadLad, again that wasn't so hard. Tell me again why Uthman saw it fit to burn all copies, instead of giving us "because such-and-such was in such-and-such dialect. Duh. And to top it off, he had it written in a language nobody then almost knew, forced them to leanr it, then had all Muslims learn this langauge so as to "know" the "original" Qur'an. Uthman is a genius, I'll give you that--a genius enough to create this ruse and make Islam the way it is now, which is probably not what the Prophet intended to in the first place.

Originally posted by Shakoosh Kabir
How can you be sure that the retained version was not corrupted? Surely - being all powerful - Allah could have asked The Archangel Gabriel to hand over a CD containing the original, pure, uncorrupted version to Mohammed for posterity so that a certain English Sabla would not need to spend zillions of cyber hours splitting hairs on the issue 14 centuries later?

The answer is simple it can't be corrupted otherwsie it will be against Allah promise in the Quran to protect it. This is main reason and ofcourse other reasons that your claim is not valid because when Uthman ordered to collection of the Quran in one book based on the first collection which was done at Abu Baker time and also Utham asked not only one person of the people who knows and memorized the Quran to collect it.

Originally posted by IceTea
The answer is simple it can't be corrupted otherwsie it will be against Allah promise in the Quran to protect it.

How do you know Uthman didn't add this part?

Originally posted by Enigma
The first verse doesn't count; that's what you say when you begin reading Quran :duh:

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

Is that like "Calories don't count if nobody sees you eating it?"

If it doesn't count, then why do you call it the first verse?

Originally posted by MoonChild
How do you know Uthman didn't add this part?

Because he is a true believer and he can't do that he is also one of the 10 people whom been told by the Profet Mohammed PBUH in advance that they will enter the heaven.

Originally posted by Scottish
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

Is that like "Calories don't count if nobody sees you eating it?"

If it doesn't count, then why do you call it the first verse?

Which verse this you are talking about :rolleyes:?

Ask Enigma, IceTea, they're the ones that made the statement, not me.

this is Verse 1 that Enigman claims does not count.

[110:1] In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful.

Since Sadlad asked not to divert his thread on the Bible, maybe you can answer it here.

How are you sure that the version of the Quran that Uthman approved is the one that the Prophet received ?

Originally posted by sanwin25
Since Sadlad asked not to divert his thread on the Bible, maybe you can answer it here.

How are you sure that the version of the Quran that Uthman approved is the one that the Prophet received ? Simply because Uthman chose the Quraishi dialect which was our Prophet Muhammed's dialect.
PEACE

Originally posted by SadLad
Simply because Uthman chose the Quraishi dialect which was our Prophet Muhammed's dialect.
PEACE

And-that-is-proof? Big fat hairy deal. That's the most absurd proof I've ever heard. No wonder Islam is in trouble.

Simply because Uthman chose the Quraishi dialect which was our Prophet Muhammed's dialect.

Now I will ask this slowly, so you can get it this time.

1. Why did Allah choose to reveal the Quran in SEVEN dialects ?

2. Where & When did Allah say that you need to reject 6 of them ?

3. What are these dialects ? Were they all spoken in the land of the Prophet or in different parts of the Arab world ?

3. I thought the Prophet was illiterate. Is that correct ?

4. If the Prophet was illiterate, it is quite amazing that he could be such a successful businessman, remember the Quran word for word and remember it in SEVEN dialects !

5. When did the Prophet say to choose the Quraishi dialect ?

6. When did Uthman live ?

7. When did the Prophet authorize Uthman to burn the originals ?

Originally posted by Scottish
Ask Enigma, IceTea, they're the ones that made the statement, not me.

this is Verse 1 that Enigman claims does not count.

[110:1] In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful.

The first verse is one of the Quran verses of each "sura" thats why we read it in the prayer. But maybe the "sunni" people don't don't consider it as one of the verse and they don't read it.

Originally posted by sanwin25
Now I will ask this slowly, so you can get it this time.

1. Why did Allah choose to reveal the Quran in SEVEN dialects ?

2. Where & When did Allah say that you need to reject 6 of them ?

3. What are these dialects ? Were they all spoken in the land of the Prophet or in different parts of the Arab world ?

3. I thought the Prophet was illiterate. Is that correct ?

4. If the Prophet was illiterate, it is quite amazing that he could be such a successful businessman, remember the Quran word for word and remember it in SEVEN dialects !

5. When did the Prophet say to choose the Quraishi dialect ?

6. When did Uthman live ?

7. When did the Prophet authorize Uthman to burn the originals ?

Most of your questions are silly and the answer to the rest already mentioned. The conclusion is that the Quran remains one version until today and in the future.

Of course they are "silly" because they contradict your beliefs. Will your head explode if you answer them? I also contend that if Sunnis have a separate belief of the 4, then which one of you is correct?

And aren't they supposed to read it if it is all one book, one rule, etc, etc?

I'm not anti Islam, but you're contradictions are astounding.

But maybe the "sunni" people don't don't consider it as one of the verse and they don't read it.

Oh my goodness, you mean the Sunni's might have a different version of the Quran ?

My Bad !

Here we were all believing there was only one version of the Quran.

everyone HAS to read Bismillar Alrahman AlRaheem before reading the Quran. What Enigma meant, that its not included it in the verses counts .. example check the attachment.

There is no difference between sunni and any other sect Quran!

Originally posted by Scottish

And aren't they supposed to read it if it is all one book, one rule, etc, etc?

.
Just wanted to say that the verse you mentioned is something we say before beginning anything. For example, before start eating we say it, before start reading , we say it, before start writing, we say it, before start answering a test, we say it so if we start it before all these things, then it's something normal to hear us read it before reading the Quran

We believe that we should say that verse before start doing anything that's not haram.


PEACE

Originally posted by Scottish
Will your head explode if you answer them?

You know, I really believe that it would :)

Ice Tea is an endless source of amusement, once you get over the :bang: :bang: part of trying to talk to him (it took me about 2 years... I kept thinking I could reach him with logic and short sentences)

Originally posted by MoonChild
You know, I really believe that it would :)

Ice Tea is an endless source of amusement, once you get over the :bang: :bang: part of trying to talk to him (it took me about 2 years... I kept thinking I could reach him with logic and short sentences)

For someone who post same questions like a parrot it's enough to answer him once.

Then answer it once.....and if they ask the same question, then answer it twice. Enltertain those of us that are new the board with your enlightenment and knowledge.


Answer the questions, one after another. This ought to be interesting. And when you answer them, explain the contradictions.

I'm most curious about Mohammad being illiterate, yet he wrote down the word of God? If so, quite amazing that the knowledge did not stay with him afterwards.

Or are you implying that God Himself did the writing...and if so, was his penmanship good, and grammatically correct. Well, if it isn't, it is.

Originally posted by Scottish

I'm most curious about Mohammad being illiterate, yet he wrote down the word of God? If so, quite amazing that the knowledge did not stay with him afterwards.



The Profet PBUH people like "zaid bin haritha, etc" wrote the Quran based on the instructions from the Profet.

Hi Scots Man :) D-S thinks I'm talking to myself now :p

You DO bear a remarkable resemblence to my college boyfriend, although he was Swedish ;)

Originally posted by MoonChild
Hi Scots Man :) D-S thinks I'm talking to myself now :p

You DO bear a remarkable resemblence to my college boyfriend, although he was Swedish ;)


I was jocking can't you bear Moony ? So sensitive aaah woman you can't be so different would you ?

Sloath is halucinating it is that yellow stuff, what a fool he is :haha:

Originally posted by IceTea
The Profet PBUH people like "zaid bin haritha, etc" wrote the Quran based on the instructions from the Profet.

So how would Mohammad know it was written down correctly?

DS, would you please take off Moonchilds name off of my quote? I would like to be properly credited.

LOL. DS, has a problem with gender identification. That's why he's alone. He's admittedly lazy and a fool. That may be part of the problem as well.

I'm getting rather tired of his cnawvshawling.

Originally posted by Scottish
So how would Mohammad know it was written down correctly?



He would know because he is the prophet and also don't forget that alot of people reading it infront of him. You should know one thing that those people are raised and educated by the prophet so don't expect them to do something against their religion and the holy book.

Originally posted by IceTea
He would know because he is the prophet and also don't forget that alot of people reading it infront of him. You should know one thing that those people are raised and educated by the prophet so don't expect them to do something against their religion and the holy book.
Besides, Prophet Mohammed (PBUH)always kept asking these people what they had writen so far.

people talk about islam and they know nothing about it :confused: ..
they involve them Selves and digging thier own Graves .. :confused: ..

muslim are different now days i heard in some books that muslim were strong and faithful ??

but i realized it was just a Big Fat Lie .. :duh:

Originally posted by IceTea
And why do you find it strange when the best man Allah created request the angel Gibrail to recite the Quran.


When the Archangel Gabriel informed Mary that she was to be the Mother of God, there is no record whatsoever of his implying that he would be popping back 650 years later:

The fact of the Annunciation of the Blessed Virgin Mary is related in Luke, i 26-38. The Evangelist tells us that in the sixth month after the conception of St. John the Baptist by Elizabeth, the angel Gabriel was sent from God to the Virgin Mary, at Nazareth, a small town in the mountains of Galilee. Mary was of the house of David, and was espoused (i. e. married) to Joseph, of the same royal family. She had, however, not yet entered the household of her spouse, but was still in her mother's house, working, perhaps, over her dowry. And the angel having taken the figure and the form of man, came into the house and said to her: "Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee." Mary having heard the greeting words did not speak; she was troubled in spirit, since she knew not the angel, nor the cause of his coming, nor the meaning of the salutation. And the angel continued and said: "Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found grace with God. Behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and shalt bring forth a son; and thou shalt call his name Jesus. He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of David his father; and he shall reign in the house of Jacob forever. And of his kingdom there shall be no end." The Virgin understood that there was question of the coming Redeemer. But, why should she be elected from amongst women for the splendid dignity of being the mother of the Messiah. Therefore, not doubting the word of Godlike Zachary, but filled with fear and astonishment, she said: "How shall this be done, because I know not man?"

To remove Mary's anxiety and to assure her that her virginity would be spared, the Archangel answered: "The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee and the power of the Most High shall overshadow thee. And therefore also the Holy One which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God." In token of the truth of his word he made known to her the conception of St. John, the miraculous pregnancy of her relative now old and sterile: "And behold, thy cousin Elizabeth; she also has conceived a son in her old age, and this is the sixth month with her that is called barren: because no word shall be impossible with God." Mary may not yet have fully understood the meaning of the heavenly message and how the maternity might be reconciled with her vow of virginity, but clinging to the first words of the angel and trusting to the Omnipotence of God she said: "Behold the handmaid of the Lord, be it done to me according to thy word."

Originally posted by IceTea
He would know because he is the prophet and also don't forget that alot of people reading it infront of him. You should know one thing that those people are raised and educated by the prophet so don't expect them to do something against their religion and the holy book.

Besides, Prophet Mohammed (PBUH)always kept asking these people what they had writen so far.

So, Mohammad was a micro-manager? Those that wrote down his words were not "raised and educated by the prophet." Please, correct me if I'm wrong, but how old was Mohammad when the words were written, and how long was Islam in practice before it was written? So, he would know, because he's the prophet? Riiiiigggghhhhht.

people talk about islam and they know nothing about it ..

And how will people learn, if they don't talk about it? How can we learn if we don't speak our thoughts and are corrected for being incorrect?

they involve them Selves and digging thier own Graves .. ..

Digging graves for asking questions? Interesting you should use death as some sort of analogy. Is this your opinion? That those that question deserve death? Or did I read too much into it. I mean, we all die....

Originally posted by Shakoosh Kabir
When the Archangel Gabriel informed Mary that she was to be the Mother of God, there is no record whatsoever of his implying that he would be popping back 650 years later:


First of all the angel Gibrail didn't say to Mary that she will be the mother of God. Because she know that Allah has no sons and she used to worship Allah before the angel Gibrail came to her Right graciously did her Lord accept her: He made her grow in purity and beauty: To the care of Zakariya was she assigned. Every time that he entered (Her) chamber to see her, He found her supplied with sustenance. He said: "O Mary! Whence (comes) this to you?" She said: "From Allah: for Allah Provides sustenance to whom He pleases without measure." [3:37]

About there is no record that the angel Gibrail will come again, if you read below Hadith you will see what Waraqa said at the first time the angel Gibrail came to prophet Mohammed PBUH:


Narrated 'Aisha

The Prophet returned to Khadija while his heart was beating rapidly. She took him to Waraqa bin Naufal who was a Christian convert and used to read the Gospels in Arabic Waraqa asked (the Prophet), "What do you see?" When he told him, Waraqa said, "That is the same angel whom Allah sent to the Prophet) Moses. Should I live till you receive the Divine Message, I will support you strongly."


Originally posted by Shakoosh Kabir

And the angel continued and said: "Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found grace with God. Behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and shalt bring forth a son; and thou shalt call his name Jesus. He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of David his father; and he shall reign in the house of Jacob forever. And of his kingdom there shall be no end." The Virgin understood that there was question of the coming Redeemer. But, why should she be elected from amongst women for the splendid dignity of being the mother of the Messiah. Therefore, not doubting the word of Godlike Zachary, but filled with fear and astonishment, she said: "How shall this be done, because I know not man?"

To remove Mary's anxiety and to assure her that her virginity would be spared, the Archangel answered: "The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee and the power of the Most High shall overshadow thee. And therefore also the Holy One which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God." In token of the truth of his word he made known to her the conception of St. John, the miraculous pregnancy of her relative now old and sterile: "And behold, thy cousin Elizabeth; she also has conceived a son in her old age, and this is the sixth month with her that is called barren: because no word shall be impossible with God." Mary may not yet have fully understood the meaning of the heavenly message and how the maternity might be reconciled with her vow of virginity, but clinging to the first words of the angel and trusting to the Omnipotence of God she said: "Behold the handmaid of the Lord, be it done to me according to thy word."

The holy Quran stating the right story and what happend to Mary:


[3:42]" Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! Allah hath chosen thee and purified thee- chosen thee above the women of all nations."

[3:43]"O Mary! worship Thy Lord devoutly: Prostrate thyself, and bow down (in prayer) with those who bow down."

[3:45]"Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah;".

[3:46]""He shall speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. And he shall be (of the company) of the righteous."

[3:47]"She said: "O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?" He said: "Even so: Allah createth what He willeth: When He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it, 'Be,' and it is!".

[3:48]"And Allah will teach him the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel,".

[3:49]""And (appoint him) a messenger to the Children of Israel, (with this message): "'I have come to you, with a Sign from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by Allah's leave: And I heal those born blind, and the lepers, and I quicken the dead, by Allah's leave; and I declare to you what ye eat, and what ye store in your houses. Surely therein is a Sign for you if ye did believe;"

[3:50]"'(I have come to you), to attest the Law which was before me. And to make lawful to you part of what was (Before) forbidden to you; I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear Allah, and obey me."

[3:51]"' "'It is Allah Who is my Lord and your Lord; then worship Him. This is a Way that is straight.'"

This is the truth which every Christian should know.

Originally posted by IceTea
First of all the angel Gibrail didn't say to Mary that she will be the mother of God.[/b]

That's according to the Qur'an. Since we Christians don't subscribe to it, and since the Bible preceded the Qur'an by a good 500 or so years, it's safe to say that we'll take the original rather than the copycat anytime.

The holy Quran stating the right story and what happend to Mary:

Again, we do not subscribe to something that was merely copied, pasted and then edited for other people's own agenda. Which is basically what thw Qur'an is, more or less.

Exactly MP,

Why go for the one mans (Uthmans) amended, altered, edited version (ie, the Quran) when the original document (ie, the Bible) is still with us ?

Please, correct me if I'm wrong, but how old was Mohammad when the words were written, and how long was Islam in practice before it was written?

I asked a question IceTea, please don't run from it.

Originally posted by Milliardo Peacecraft
That's according to the Qur'an. Since we Christians don't subscribe to it, and since the Bible preceded the Qur'an by a good 500 or so years, it's safe to say that we'll take the original rather than the copycat anytime.


Don't be silly, first of all you know All books are from one source and all prophets from one source. And also there are books before the Bible, the important thing is the unity of these books and the message of all Allah prophets also the same, to worship one God only (i.e. Allah). The Quran is the seal of previous books like prophet Mohammed PBUH is the seal of previous prophets. This is the way Allah want it to be. And also you have to know that the Quran is one version and never changed unlike the Bible which get abused by human. We don't have to repeat the truth every time to you, you should know it by now.

Originally posted by Milliardo Peacecraft

Again, we do not subscribe to something that was merely copied, pasted and then edited for other people's own agenda. Which is basically what thw Qur'an is, more or less.

That will apply to the Bible and not the holy Quran, which is protected by Allah.

Originally posted by Scottish
[B]Please, correct me if I'm wrong, but how old was Mohammad when the words were written, and how long was Islam in practice before it was written?

[B]

At the age of 40 prophet Mohammad PBUH received his first revelation from Allah through the Angel Gabriel, which continued for 23 years. The Quran revealed in steps and according to the events. And I beleive every time the Prophet recieve new verses he memorized it then dictated it to his Comanions, and written down by scribes.

Originally posted by IceTea
Don't be silly, first of all you know All books are from one source and all prophets from one source.

Which source, Teabag? You practically deny the role of Judaism and the Torah in this, which is certainly amusing. You know very well that this is the original source, yet Islam denies this.

And also there are books before the Bible

Yes, Teabag, there are, and they are part of the Bible called the Old Testament.

the important thing is the unity of these books and the message of all Allah prophets also the same, to worship one God only (i.e. Allah).

Icebag, the Qur'an does not in any way even begin to resemble any of the Old Testament books, and is just as off base on the New Testament ones, so I am curious as to what unity you talk about here.

The Quran is the seal of previous books like prophet Mohammed PBUH is the seal of previous prophets.

That's according to you, Teabag. Since neither the Jews nor Christians recognize any of these, then the point is moot and academic. In short, it falls flat, except where Muslims are concerned.

i have been told that there are many scientific facts mentioned in Quran and that there is no other book other than Quran that mentioned these facts. these scientific facts are very accurat and some have just been discovered and some weren't .


my question is if Uthman bin affan "if that is the peron that you are talking about" radhiya allah annh changed the Quran and if the Quran that the muslims read now isn't the original quran how come he knew about all these scientific facts ??!!!


please answer anyone ia m tottally lost :lost: :weep: :sorry:

Demon... right now I'm listening to tapes by Dr. Tariq AlSuwaidan where he talks about what you have mentioned.... Quran has mentioned many facts that Scientists are discovering now... So after all ythat you say that the Quran is not the words of Allah and that its been written by a human.... :confused: how could a human know all these facts?

Originally posted by Blood Rose
Demon... right now I'm listening to tapes by Dr. Tariq AlSuwaidan where he talks about what you have mentioned.... Quran has mentioned many facts that Scientists are discovering now... So after all ythat you say that the Quran is not the words of Allah and that its been written by a human.... :confused: how could a human know all these facts?


you miss understood my point i was trying to say if people clime that Uthman is the one who changed Quran how come the quran that muslims read have all these facts , i need an answer or I will change my mind :lost: :sorry:

Originally posted by DemonOfTheFall
you miss understood my point i was trying to say if people clime that Uthman is the one who changed Quran how come the quran that muslims read have all these facts , i need an answer or I will change my mind :lost: :sorry:

I didn't get you wrong... you want to know if its true if Uthman was the one who wrote Quran and I'm saying that ppl's claim is wrong... Quran is from Allah... no human would know such facts.... I'm not here to convince anyone as you can see i don't know how to do that ... I don't know how to make ppl understand what I believe... maybe I'm not suppose to post here :(

What are these 'facts' which have only now been discovered ?

"It is HE WHO has Let free the two bodies Of flowing water: One palatable and sweet, And the other salty and bitter; Yet has HE Made a barrier between them, And a partition that is forbidden To be passed.

[AL-QUR'AN 25:53]


Modern Science has discovered that in estuaries, where fresh(sweet) and salt water meet, the situation is somewhat different from that found in places where two seas meet. It has been discovered that what distinguishes fresh water from salt water in estuarie is a "pycnocline zone with a marked density discontinuity separating the two layers." {Oceanography, Gross, p.242. Also see Introductory Oceanography, Thurman, pp. 300-301 ; Oceanography, Gross, p. 244 and Introductory Oceanography, Thurman, pp.300-301} This phenomenon occurs in several places, including Egypt, where the river Nile flows into the Medierranean Sea.


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