The Uthmanic Recension - where is it?

[Shakoosh Kabir]

People considering converting to Islam often ask where the Uthmanic Recension is to be found only to discover that

i. Muslims claim there are 2 "original" copies of the Quran, the Topkapi and Samarkand MSS versions. These post-date the Uthmanic Recension codex by around 200 years. The earliest known copy is the Ma´il - dated 790 - and is to be found in The British Library.

ii. The Qibla was not fixed until the 8th century

iii. The Jews still retained a relationship with the Arabs until at least 640

iv. Mecca was unknown until the end of the 7th century

v. The earliest Qur'anic writings do not coincide with the Qur'an which exists today

vi. the number of prayers as well as the Hajj was not formalized until after 717

vii. Muhammed was not known as a prophet, nor was the word "Muslim" used until the end of the 7th century.

During the c. 150 year gap between Mohammed´s time and the writing of the Ma´il Quran, where was the original Uthmanic Recension and where is it today?

The suspicion is that the Qur'an which we now read is NOT the same as that which was collated and canonized in 650 A.D. by Uthman (if indeed it even existed at that time). One can only assume that there must have been an evolution in the Qur'anic text. Consequently, the only thing we can say with a certainty is that only the documents which we now possess (from 790 A.D.) are the same as that which is in our hands today, written 160 years after Muhammed's death and 1200 years ago.

[Scottish Gal]

read this shakoosh,

hope it answers part of your question

http://www.englishsabla.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=13075&perpage=30&pagenumber=1

[Mr Tickle]

lets make it simple

where is the first Koran?

[Scottish Gal]

First Quran?

in the heart of the believers......[memorised]

[Scottish Gal]

.............The insurgents are indeed said to have made it one of their complaints against Othman that he had caused a new edition to be made of the Qur'an, and had committed all the old copies to the flames; but these proceedings were objected to simply as unauthorized and sacrilegious. No hint was dropped of any alteration or omission. Such a supposition, palpably absurd at the time, is altogether an after-thought of the modern Sheeas.
"We may, then, safely conclude that Othman's recension was what it professed to be, a reproduction of Abu Bakr's edition, with a more perfect conformity to the dialect of Mecca, and possibly a more uniform arrangement of its parts - but still a faithful reproduction..................

[sanwin25]

SG

I do not think the previous discussion was resolved suitably so we are just beating a dead horse here.

[Mr Tickle]

Gal,

1) Where is the very first copy?

2) How do we know that the copies we have today resemble the first one?

3) How do we know for SURE that all Mohammed's sayings were memorised EXACTLY for the first copy?

4) How do we know that Uthman chose the correct version?

5) How did Uthman know that the others were wrong?

If there were other versions, that suggests that other people had different recollections

[IceTea]

Originally posted by mr pinnochio
lets make it simple

where is the first Koran?

There is no difference between first copy and today copies, simple as that.

[Mr Tickle]

unfortunately, there is ABSOLUTELY NO WAY that you can prove this as we dont have the first copy to check your claim

sorry

[IceTea]

Originally posted by mr pinnochio
unfortunately, there is ABSOLUTELY NO WAY that you can prove this as we dont have the first copy to check your claim

sorry

I think you are confused this is not the Bible to check the many versions with the original Bible.

[silver_ring]

shakosh kabir ..where are you ..u always disappear when there some questions about christians ...!!

back to the topic ..

m p ... open your mind and take a deep breath and think!! if it was another quran or original one and they made dopilcate one .. how come now in this centure we have only one and even one word not changed ...??? is not some thing strange ...!!!

this thread (http://www.englishsabla.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=13075) will help you a lot ;)

[IceTea]

Beside that the Quran is like a chain and it's one of it's miracles, try to take out one word from it and you will see the difference in the meaning completely changed and you will notice the difference immediately . So it's like a chain no word or verse can be taken out from it.

[Scottish Gal]

Gal,

1) Where is the very first copy?

Narrated Qatadah: I asked Anas Ibn Malik: ‘Who collected the Qur’an at the time of Prophet?’ He replied: ‘Four, all of whom were from the Ansar: Ubay Ibn Ka‘ab, Mu‘adh Ibn Jabal, Zayd Ibn Thabit and Abu Zayd.’ (Bukhari, Kitab Fada’ilu’l-Qur’an)

QURAN WAS WRITTEN BY SCRIBES AT THE TIME OF PROPHET

Narrated Zaid bin Thabit Al-Ansari, one of the scribes of the Revelation: Abu Bakr sent for me after the casualties among the warriors (of the battle) of Yamama (where a great number of Qurra were killed). 'Umar was present with Abu Bakr who said: "Umar has come to me and said, the People have suffered heavy casualties on the day of (the battle of) Yamama, and I am afraid that there will be some casualties among the Qurra (those who know the Qur'an by heart) at other places,whereby a large part of the Qur'an may be lost, unless you collect it. And I am of the opinion that you should collect the Qur'an.' Abu Bakr added, 'I said to 'Umar, "How can I do something which Allah's Apostle has not done?" 'Umar said (to me) "By Allah, it is (really) a good thing". So 'Umar kept on pressing trying to persuade me to accept his proposal, till Allah opened my bosom for it and I had the same opinion as 'Umar'. (Zaid bin Thabit added) 'Umar was sitting with him (Abu Bakr) and was not speaking. Abu Bakr said (to me), 'You are a wise young man and we do not suspect you (of telling lies or of forgetfulness); and you used to write the Divine Inspiration for Allah's Apostle. Therefore, look for the Qur'an and collect it (in one manuscript)'. By Allah, if he (Abu Bakr) had ordered me to shift one of the mountains (from its place) it would not have been harder for me than what he had ordered me concerning the collection of the Qur'an. I said to both of them, 'How dare you do a thing which the Prophet has not done?' Abu Bakr said, 'By Allah, it is (really) a good thing. So I kept on arguing with him about it till Allah opened my bosom for that which He had opened the bosoms of Abu Bakr and
'Umar. So I started locating the Quranic material and collecting it from parchments, scapula, leafstalks of date palms and from the memories of men (who knew it by heart). I found with Khuzaima two verses of Surah Tauba which I had not found with anybody else (and they were): 'Verily there has come to you an Apostle (Muhammad) from among yourselves. It grieves him that you should receive any injury or difficulty. He (Muhammad) is ardently anxious over you (to be rightly guided)' (9:128). Bukhari, VI, No. 201

The words of Zaid may raise some confusion: How can I do something which Allah's Apostle has not done? This doen't mean that the Qur'an was not written in the Prophet's time, but it means that that the Qur'anic was scattered and not collected into one volume. The Prophet (pbuh) didn't leave the complete Qur'an in a single volume for all the Ummah, because most of his companions had memorized it and some had their own copies. So Abu Bakr (ra) feared that the Qur'an could have been lost, and that's why he ordered for a copy to be prepared.


2) How do we know that the copies we have today resemble the first one?

The Muslims who were not Arabs, couldn't read the Qur'an as it should have been read. They changed the meanings of the verses, and many variant readings sprung out, because the people were ignorant of Arabic. Old Arabic was written as lines, and now one can distinguish such and such alphabets easily by marks. But this was not the case in older times. That's why, the Caliph Uthman immediately told a committee of scribes to write the Qur'an in the dialect of the Quraysh, because that was how the Qur'an was revealed. When the scribes had prepared many copies from the one which Abu Bakr (ra) had compiled, each copy was sent to each city under Muslim rule. Other copies which were not from Uthman were burned.

because all the other dialect made quran were burned that means there are no mixed up or different Qurans today with righteous believers* [i say this because it has come to my knowledge that some ahmadiyya people have altered their quran to suit them(which is bad)]


3) How do we know for SURE that all Mohammed's sayings were memorised EXACTLY for the first copy?

The first one to memorize the complete Qur'an, was, the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) himself. After a Revelation came to the Prophet (pbuh), he memorized it:

'Move not thy tongue concerning the (Qur'an) to make
haste therewith. It is for Us to collect it and promulgate
it; but when We have promulgated it, follow thou its
recital' (75: 16-19)

The Prophet (pbuh) had thousands of companions, and it is for sure that hundreds of them too had memorized the whole Qur'an, word by word, just as the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) himself did.

There are numerous ahadith, giving account of various efforts made and measures taken by the Prophet to ensure that the revelation was preserved in the memory of his Companions. The following is perhaps the most clear:
'Narrated 'Uthman bin 'Affan: The Prophet said: "The most superior among you (Muslims) are those who learn the Qur'an and teach it".' Bukhari, VI, No. 546.

In addition to this, it is compulsory to recite the Qur'an in prayers. So the companions, at least, had memorized some of the Qur'an if not the whole as others did.

4) How do we know that Uthman chose the correct version?

Caliph Uthman told a committee of scribes to write the Qur'an in the dialect of the Quraysh not in any other dialect, because that was how the Qur'an was revealed.

5) How did Uthman know that the others were wrong?

i think the problems with the dialects is what made him think that (not that they were wrong) but they can be interpretated wronglyly and changed gradually by the generations ........

If there were other versions, that suggests that other people had different recollections

not different versions but dialects of the quran.


In that time had there been some people who kept their Quran from being burnt by Uthman or people today [like ahmadiyya] have chaged their own quran :(

they have a severe warning in the noble Quran itself:

And woe unto those who write the scripture with their own hands and then say, "This is from God," that they may in this way obtain a small gain. Woe unto them for what their hands have written and woe unto them for what they gain thereby! (2:79).

In the following passage condemns even hiding any part of the revelation, much less altering it:

[God says:] Those who hide what We have revealed of the clear matters and of the guidance, after We have made it clear for the people, are accursed of God and accursed of those who (are entitled to) curse - except such of them as repent and amend and make manifest the truth. These it is to whom I turn in forgiveness. And I am the forgiving, the merciful (2:159-160).

God Bless

[Shakoosh Kabir]

Originally posted by Shakoosh Kabir
vii. Muhammed was not known as a prophet, nor was the word "Muslim" used until the end of the 7th century.

During the c. 150 year gap between Mohammed´s time and the writing of the Ma´il Quran, where was the original Uthmanic Recension and where is it today?

The suspicion is that the Qur'an which we now read is NOT the same as that which was collated and canonized in 650 A.D. by Uthman (if indeed it even existed at that time). One can only assume that there must have been an evolution in the Qur'anic text. Consequently, the only thing we can say with a certainty is that only the documents which we now possess (from 790 A.D.) are the same as that which is in our hands today, written 160 years after Muhammed's death and 1200 years ago.

150-200 years is a very long time for polishing up texts, i.e. omitting ambiguities and focussing on axiomatic dogma, is it not?

[Scottish Gal]

Originally posted by Shakoosh Kabir
150-200 years is a very long time for polishing up texts, i.e. omitting ambiguities and focussing on axiomatic dogma, is it not?

There are no variances or missing parts in the Noble Quran. These are all false and baseless assumptions from some anti-Islamics. It is a problem with dialects. For instance, take the letter "j". Did you know that some Arabs don't pronounce the "j"? They always pronounce it as "g" or "ga".

Take "the" as another example. Some Arabs also don't pronounce "the". They pronounce it as "za".

Another example, an important one, is that some Arabs used to have a dialect which originated from Yemen, where they would add "an" at the end of a noun. Take for instance the popular word of today "Taliban", as in the Taliban in Afghanistan. "Taliban" is the same as the Arabic word "Talib" which means "Student".

The point is that there were 7 different dialects. The Noble Quran was originally recited with the "Quraishi" dialect, which is the dialect that our beloved Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him spoke.

The other dialects were later prohibited by our Prophet's disciple Uthman to keep the recitation of the Noble Quran consistent. The words were the SAME.

[Shakoosh Kabir]

Ms McGal

Let us assume for the purpose of debate that the Uthmanic Recension has been, er, mislaid but that this minor problem is in any case of no particular significance as the original text is to be found in the Archangel Gabriel´s pocket and - ultimately - in Allah´s memory.

This argument will unfortunately not convince an evolutionist atheist one bit.

[sanwin25]

It will not convince anyone one bit.

Like IT said in another thread.

The Quran said the Bible mentioned the Prophet Mohammed.

But the Bible has been altered to remove the reference.

And who said that ?

The Quran said that.

So it must be true.

What an amazing piece of circular logic and delusional thinking.

[Mr Tickle]

Fact 1) We do not have the 1st Koran

Fact 2) We therefore cannot prove that todays Koran is exactly the same as the 1st Koran

Fact 3) Uthman ordered the creation of one version of the koran

Fact 4) This suggests there were a number of different versions in place at the time

A point to consider:

Why did God never ask Mohammed to ensure that all his revelations were written down?

[IceTea]

wrong analysis and assumptions will lead to wrong conclusion.

[sanwin25]

That clearly explains your situation.

[Mr Tickle]

Tea,

I am openminded to the fact that you will prove me wrong............................................. ...................................

[silver_ring]

Originally posted by mr pinnochio
Fact 1) We do not have the 1st Koran

Fact 2) We therefore cannot prove that todays Koran is exactly the same as the 1st Koran

Fact 3) Uthman ordered the creation of one version of the koran

Fact 4) This suggests there were a number of different versions in place at the time

A point to consider:

Why did God never ask Mohammed to ensure that all his revelations were written down?

dont ask where is the original one ... bcuz this one is the original one .. ask if the quran is one when eveer you go in this earth ?? and compare it with the bible .. and u 'll see the different .....

its very clear but if you want to complicate it then its up to u

[IceTea]

you are claming the Quran changed, go ahead and take out one verse or one word and see the effect of the meaning. I said before the holy Quran is a miracle and no human can bring one surah like it. It's like a chain one pice complete the second in a systematic way. It's Allah words not human story, I hope to stick this fact in your brain.

Unlike the Bible which changed many times by humans the Quran remain one version until the final day.

[Scottish Gal]

Originally posted by mr pinnochio
Fact 1) We do not have the 1st Koran

Fact 2) We therefore cannot prove that todays Koran is exactly the same as the 1st Koran

Fact 3) Uthman ordered the creation of one version of the koran

Fact 4) This suggests there were a number of different versions in place at the time

A point to consider:

Why did God never ask Mohammed to ensure that all his revelations were written down?

had u read my post u would get the answers.

i do not know why u and sanwin ask things a hundred times.

There are millions of arguments to bring about islam vs christianity.

Arguments against islam, arguments against the bible etc etc.

Rather than reading up these arguments i think it is best if u think with your own mind and in your heart [whether you are Muslim or Christian or Jew.- applies to everyone]

Look at your own text and other texts and think which one you feel is most just.

The laws of slavery according to islam/christianity/judaism.
the laws of marriage, human equality, health, after life etc.

The choice is yours. I wanted to open a lot of threads regarding the bible and stuff, but i thought "why"?

Everybody here has a brain, so they should use it.

My target now is to learn the qurans meanings and why such things were said and told to mankind.

I do not understand some stuff in islam and in the quran, so i am going to try and understand it.

rather than waste time here and proving things to people who have the intention not to learn but to stubbornly argue in circles....getting no where.

Peace

God Bless You All

scotti

[Scottish Gal]

Originally posted by IceTea
you are claming the Quran changed, go ahead and take out one verse or one word and see the effect of the meaning. I said before the holy Quran is a miracle and no human can bring one surah like it. It's like a chain one pice complete the second in a systematic way. It's Allah words not human story, I hope to stick this fact in your brain.

Unlike the Bible which changed many times by humans the Quran remain one version until the final day.

ahem i am sorry to disturb your quote, but minority of muslims [ahmadiyya] have changed their quran. i think it is our duty that our following generation does not come across false teachings........and the majority who believe inthe unchanged version may stick to it:(

2/5 sites are ahmadiyya on the net...............too fast..too dangerous

[IceTea]

SG,

I can see your point, but a true muslim will easly find the difference if it's done. Thats why the Quran will remain one version and protected by Allah from abuse.

[Mr Tickle]

Bottom line

Do we have the very first Koran created by Uthman?

[silver_ring]

Originally posted by mr pinnochio
Bottom line

Do we have the very first Koran created by Uthman?

yes we do

[sanwin25]

This is a link from www.submission.org.

This site has been used by several muslim members here so I assume it is not anti islamic.

Brief summary of the collection and writing of the Quran:

Prophet Muhammad was the first to write down the Quran revealed to him. He also had other scribes helping him in the writing. He had to be a literate man to be sure that any unusual words, like Becca, for example or any unusual use of a letter like a subtle yaa, an alif, a closed Taa or open Taa,….etc. are used in the proper way and place. When Muhammad died, the whole Quran was completely written down, although not in one book, but rather on pieces of woods, papers, palm leaves, animal skin, bones…etc. Muhammad also left clear instructions of the order of writing the suras (chapters) of the Quran, the beginning and end of each verse and sura and the absence for example of Basmallah from the top of sura 9. It was the first Khalifa, Abu Bakr who collected the Quran into one book. The manuscript on which the Qur'an was collected, remained with Abu Bakr and then with Umar (the second Khalifa), and after him, it remained with Hafsa, 'Umar's daughter and one of the Prophet's wives This copy of the Quran, was the only copy made after Muhammad's own copy. It is from that copy that Uthman, the third Khalifa, made other copies to distribute to different regions of the Islamic Empire. Uthman returned Hafsa's copy of the Quran to her. Her copy however was later burned by Marwan b. Hakam (d.65/684). If the copies available to Marwan B. Hakam were the same like Muhammad's own copy that Hafsa's had, it would be no problem. These copies differed and caused M.B. Hakam a lot of political unrest, therefore he ended this turmoil by burning the ONLY copy left for the Muslims by the prophet Muhammad. Burning of Hafsa's copy was the last chapter in covering up the addition of two false verses in sura 9 as was discovered later.

All this goes along God's plan who had the Quran protected in Master Tablet and has the system to show the correct Quran ready to use in the right time.

....
http://www.submission.org/miracle/writing.html

[Shakoosh Kabir]

The Uthmanic text itself had to have been written, otherwise it would not be a text. Writing was available, but for some reason, no record was kept of those supposed earlier documents prior to 750 A.D.

Muslim scholars maintain that the absence of early documentation can be blamed on old age. They believe that the material upon which the primary sources were written either disintegrated over time, leaving us with few examples today, or wore out from heavy handling and so were destroyed.

This argument is rather dubious. In the British Library we have ample examples of documents written by individuals in communities which were not too distant from Arabia, yet they predate these manuscripts by hundreds of years. On display are New Testament manuscripts such as the Codex Syniaticus and the Codex Alexandrinus, both of which were written in the fourth century, three to four hundred years before the period in question! Why have they not disintegrated with age?

Where this argument is especially weak, however, is when we apply it to the Qur'an itself. The "Uthmanic text" of the Qur'an (the final canon supposedly compiled by Zaid ibn Thabit, under the direction of the third caliph Uthman) is considered by all Muslims to be the most important piece of literature ever written. As we noted earlier, according to Sura 43:2-4, it is the "mother of books." Its importance lies in the fact that it is considered to be an exact replica of the "eternal tablets" which exist in heaven (Sura 85:22). Muslim tradition informs us that all other competing codices and manuscripts were destroyed after 646-650 A.D. Even "Hafsah's copy," from which the final recension was taken was burned. If this Uthmanic text was so important, why then was it not written on paper, or other material which would have lasted till today? And certainly, if the earliest manuscripts wore out with usage, why were they not replaced with others written on skin, like so many other older documents which are still in existence today?

We have absolutely no evidence for the original Qur'anic text. Nor do we have any of the alleged four copies which were made of this recension and sent to Mecca, Medina, Basra and Damascus. Even if these copies had somehow disintegrated with age, there would surely be some fragments of the documents which we could refer to. By the end of the seventh century Islam had expanded right across North Africa and up into Spain, and east as far as India. The Qur'an (according to tradition) was the centrepiece of their faith. Certainly within that enormous sphere of influence there should be some Qur'anic documents or manuscripts which still exist till this day. Yet, there is nothing from that period at all.

While Christianity can claim more than 5,300 known Greek manuscripts of the New Testament, 10,000 Latin Vulgates and at least 9,300 other early versions, adding up to over 24,000 New Testament manuscripts still in existence, most of which were written between 25-400 years after the death of Christ (or between the 1st and 5th centuries), Islam cannot provide a single manuscript until well into the eighth century. If the Christians could retain so many thousands of ancient manuscripts, all of which were written long before the seventh century, at a time when paper had not yet been introduced, forcing the dependency on papyrus which disintegtrated, then one wonders why the Muslims are not able to forward a single manuscript from this much later period, when it was supposedly revealed? This indeed presents a problem for the argument that the earliest Qur'ans all simply disintegrated with age, or were destroyed because they were worn.

Once again, I rest my case.

[IceTea]

You lost your case long time ago, so no need to rest it.

[Scottish Gal]

Soon will we show them our signs in the regions (of the earth), and in their own souls,
until it becomes manifest to them that this is the truth. (41:53)

[Shakoosh Kabir]

Falling back on a quotation from the Quran does not further your case.

Do you accept that the Quran in use today is the sanitised version polished up c. 160 years after Mohammed´s death?

[IceTea]

Originally posted by Scottish Gal
Soon will we show them our signs in the regions (of the earth), and in their own souls,
until it becomes manifest to them that this is the truth. (41:53)

[Scottish Gal]

Originally posted by Shakoosh Kabir
Falling back on a quotation from the Quran does not further your case.

Do you accept that the Quran in use today is the sanitised version polished up c. 160 years after Mohammed´s death?

Whatever i say or do in this sabla to win my case, u will not change your opinion one bit about islam or the quran...........

If u really cared about the truth, u would strive, and find books to find the REAL truth.........

Its just a really strange thought that in the Quran., God tells the reader numerously about the quran itself........and warnings...

Why should i not accept the Quran?, i have never came across an ayah which seems unjust to me. Ok some ayahs dont make sense because i havent much knowledge, yet........but none have seemed unjust.

But when i have read some of the bible iit did not make sense or it did not seem just:

"All who are under the yoke of slavery should consider their masters worthy of full respect, so that God's name and our teaching may not be slandered. (From the NIV Bible, 1 Timothy 6:1)"

about the 160 yrs and stuff u really have got your facts wrong......i dont know where you find against islam-convincing false arguments......

give it a rest...............Dont just judge the Quran by its cover.....open it up and read it..........

by the way, are u only trying to prove the quran is corrupt because the bible has problems with it?

GOD Almighty Said: "`How can you say, "We [the Jews] are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?' (From the NIV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)"

Have i got the interpretation of the bible wrong? Why does the bible mention this?

[Shakoosh Kabir]

Ms McGal

Religion involves a lot of faith and a suspension of rational logic. Here we are discussing the missing Uthmanic Recension and the standard Quran in use today which was compiled a very long time after Mohammed´s death according to all classical scholars, or do you dispute this point?

On a lighter note, I must say that the debates have livened up since your arrival.:cool:

[Scottish Gal]

It has been claimed by the Christian missionaries that according to the Muslim scholars:

... the Kufic Script which, according to Qur'an scholars Martin Lings and Yasin Hamid Safadi, did not appear until the late eighth century.

In other words, according to the missionaries, Lings and Safadi say that Kufic script did not appear until the late eighth century. Therefore, the conclusions drawn by the Christian missionaries suggest that:

... both the Samarkand and Topkapi Codices could not have been written earlier than 150 years after the 'Uthmanic Recension was [supposedly] compiled - at the earliest during the late 700's or early 800's since both are written in the Kufic script (Gilchrist 1989:144-147).

In this paper we would examine the claim the origins of Kufic script in the light of early Kufic Qur'anic manuscripts as well as Islamic inscriptions.

here is the source, mind you it is heavily detailed and full of evidence, i haven't read all of it but i will comment on it later.

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Text/Mss/kufic.html

[sanwin25]

SG you apparently missed this post of mine.

Brief summary of the collection and writing of the Quran:

Prophet Muhammad was the first to write down the Quran revealed to him. He also had other scribes helping him in the writing. He had to be a literate man to be sure that any unusual words, like Becca, for example or any unusual use of a letter like a subtle yaa, an alif, a closed Taa or open Taa,….etc. are used in the proper way and place. When Muhammad died, the whole Quran was completely written down, although not in one book, but rather on pieces of woods, papers, palm leaves, animal skin, bones…etc. Muhammad also left clear instructions of the order of writing the suras (chapters) of the Quran, the beginning and end of each verse and sura and the absence for example of Basmallah from the top of sura 9. It was the first Khalifa, Abu Bakr who collected the Quran into one book. The manuscript on which the Qur'an was collected, remained with Abu Bakr and then with Umar (the second Khalifa), and after him, it remained with Hafsa, 'Umar's daughter and one of the Prophet's wives This copy of the Quran, was the only copy made after Muhammad's own copy. It is from that copy that Uthman, the third Khalifa, made other copies to distribute to different regions of the Islamic Empire. Uthman returned Hafsa's copy of the Quran to her. Her copy however was later burned by Marwan b. Hakam (d.65/684). If the copies available to Marwan B. Hakam were the same like Muhammad's own copy that Hafsa's had, it would be no problem. These copies differed and caused M.B. Hakam a lot of political unrest, therefore he ended this turmoil by burning the ONLY copy left for the Muslims by the prophet Muhammad. Burning of Hafsa's copy was the last chapter in covering up the addition of two false verses in sura 9 as was discovered later.

All this goes along God's plan who had the Quran protected in Master Tablet and has the system to show the correct Quran ready to use in the right time.

....
http://www.submission.org/miracle/writing.html

Please check it out. This is not according to Christian missionaries. It is according to Muslims.

[Scottish Gal]

yes sanwin, i checked it out today.

i thought i should reply as soon as possible.

from your site i see no clear evidence from a hadith or saying that indicates that Mohammed had instructed to put this on top of surah 9.


Muhammad also left clear instructions of the order of writing the suras (chapters) of the Quran, the beginning and end of each verse and sura and the absence for example of Basmallah from the top of sura 9.........

(no evidence that he did leave instructions..)

so when i searched for answers, i too found no hadtih but rather this short answer.

...............Omission of Bismillah
This is the only Surah of the Quran to which Bismillah is not prefixed. Though the commentators have given different reasons for this, the correct one that which has been given by Imam Razi: namely,this is because the Holy Prophet himself did not dictate it at the beginning of the Surah. Therefore the Companions did not prefix it and their successors followed them., This is a further proof of the fact that utmost care has been taken to keep the Quran intact so that it should remain in its complete and original form......................

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/maududi/mau9.html

now i wish i had some kind of authentic hadith or historical evidence to this.........because that quote above is just really not enough, similar to your evidence.............

(no evidence that he did not leave instructions.........)

[sanwin25]

You missed this bit !

If the copies available to Marwan B. Hakam were the same like Muhammad's own copy that Hafsa's had, it would be no problem. These copies differed and caused M.B. Hakam a lot of political unrest, therefore he ended this turmoil by burning the ONLY copy left for the Muslims by the prophet Muhammad. Burning of Hafsa's copy was the last chapter in covering up the addition of two false verses in sura 9 as was discovered later.

[Scottish Gal]

Uthman said to the three Quraishi men, 'In case you disagree with Zaid bin Thabit on any point in the Qur'an, then write it in the dialect of Quraish as the Qur'an was revealed in their tongue'. They did so, and when they had written many copies, Uthman returned the original manuscripts to Hafsa. Uthman sent to every Muslim province one copy of what they had copied, and ordered that all the other Qur'anic materials whether written in fragmentary manuscripts or whole copies, be burnt. Zaid bin Thabit added, 'A verse from Surah al-Ahzab was missed by me when we copied the Qur'an and I used to hear Allah's Apostle reciting it. So we searched for it and found it with Khuzaima bin Thabit Al-Ansari (That verse was):'Among the Believers are men who have been true in their covenant with Allah' (33: 23).

ok ok - now whats next?

A guy called Marwen. B. Hakam burned hafsa's copy? (fairenough)

But Hafsa's copy was Abu Bakrs Copy- she borrowed it from him not the prophet!

The prophet never had one complied quran like your article suggests!

"..therefore he ended this turmoil by burning the [b]ONLY copy left for the Muslims by the prophet Muhammad..."


i get more evidence about this next time. i have already stated sanwin, somewhere in this sabla, that Prophet Muhummad never had one full copy of the Quran ! - bits and pieces were every where!

i gotta go out now. laterz

[sanwin25]

Don't ask me. That was all from a pro islamic site.

[Scottish Gal]

it must be a naughty un-islamic site - it has no reference or true proofs.

then people like u go up and read it (and get all excited)..........

i hate some of these sites........[esp ahmadiyaa]

[k82uae]

Official written copy by Uthman

The Quran was originally revealed in Quraishi dialect of Arabic. But to facilitate the people who speak other dialects, in their understanding and comprehension, Allah revealed the Quran finally in seven dialects of Arabic. During the period of Caliph Uthman (second successor to the Prophet) differences in reading the Quran among the various tribes became obvious, due to the various dialectical recitations. Dispute was arising, with each tribe calling its recitation as the correct one. This alarmed Uthman, who made a official copy in the Quraishi dialect, the dialect in which the Quran was revealed to the Prophet and was memorized by his companions. Thus this compilation by Uthman's Committee is not a different version of the Quran (like the Biblical versions) but the same original revelation given to the Prophet by One God, Allah.

Narrated Anas bin Malik: Hudhaifa bin Al-Yaman came to Uthman at the time when the people of Sham (Syria) and the people of Iraq were waging war to conquer Armenia and Azherbijan. Hudhaifa was afraid of their differences in the recitation of the Quran, so he said to Uthman, 'O chief of the Believers! Save this nation before they differ about the Book (Quran) as Jews and Christians did before'. So Uthman sent a message to Hafsa saying, 'Send us the manuscripts of the Quran so that we may compile the Quranic materials in perfect copies and return the manuscripts to you'. Hafsa sent it to Uthman. 'Uthman then ordered Zaid bin Thabit, 'Abdullah bin Az-Zubair, Said bin Al-As and Abdur Rahman bin Harith bin Hisham to rewrite the manuscripts in perfect copies. Uthman said to the three Quraishi men, 'In case you disagree with Zaid bin Thabit on any point in the Quran, then write it in their (Quraishi) tongue'. They did so, and when they had written many copies, Uthman sent to every Muslim province one copy of what they had copied and ordered that all the other Quranic materials whether written in fragmentary manuscripts or whole copies, be burnt..." (29)



Again a very stringent criteria was set up by this Committee to prevent any alteration of the Revelation.

1. The earlier recension (Original copy prepared by Abu Bakr) was to serve as the principal basis of the new one. (30) 2. Any doubt that might be raised as to the phrasing of a particular passage in the written text was to be dispelled by summoning persons known to have learned the passage in question from the Prophet. (31) 3. Uthman himself was to supervise the work of the Council. (32)

When the final recension was completed, Uthman sent a copy of it to each of the major cities of Makka, Damascus, Kufa, Basra and Madina.

The action of Uthman to burn the other copies besides the final recension, though obviously drastic, was for the betterment and harmony of the whole community and was unanimously approved by the Companions of the Prophet.

Zaid ibn Thabit is reported to have said: "I saw the Companions of Muhammad (going about) saying, 'By God, Uthman has done well! By God, Uthman has done well!" (33)

Another esteemed Companion Musab ibn Sad ibn Abi Waqqas said: "I saw the people assemble in large number at Uthman's burning of the prescribed copies (of the Quran), and they were all pleased with his action; not a one spoke out against him". (34)

Ali ibn Abu Talib, the cousin of the Prophet and the fourth successor to the Prophet commented: "If I were in command in place of Uthman, I would have done the same". (35)

Of the copies made by Uthman, two still exist to our day. One is in the city of Tashkent, (Uzbekistan) and the second one is in Istanbul (Turkey). Below is a brief account of both these copies:

1. The copy which Uthman sent to Madina was reportedly removed by the Turkish authorities to Istanbul, from where it came to Berlin during World War I. The Treaty of Versailles, which concluded World War I, contains the following clause:

'Article 246: Within six months from the coming into force of the present Treaty, Germany will restore to His Majesty, King of Hedjaz, the original Koran of Caliph Othman, which was removed from Madina by the Turkish authorities and is stated to have been presented to the ex-Emperor William II". (36)

'This manuscript then reached Istanbul, but not Madina (Where it now resides)'. (37)

2. The second copy in existence is kept in Tashkent, Uzbekistan. 'It may be the Imam (master) manuscript or one of the other copies made at the time of Uthman'. (38)

It Came to Samarkand in 890 Hijra (1485) and remained there till 1868. Then it was taken to St.Petersburg by the Russians in 1869. It remained there till 1917. A Russian orientalist gave a detailed description of it, saying that many pages were damaged and some were missing. A facsimile, some 50 copies, of this mushaf (copy) was produced by S.Pisareff in 1905. A copy was sent to the Ottoman Sultan 'Abdul Hamid, to the Shah of Iran, to the Amir of Bukhara, to Afghanistan, to Fas and some important Muslim personalities. One copy is now in the Columbia University Library (U.S.A.). (39)

'The Manuscript was afterwards returned to its former place and reached Tashkent in 1924, where it has remained since'. (40)




:

'Two of the copies of the Qur'an which were originally prepared in the time of Caliph Uthman, are still available to us today and their text and arrangement can be compared, by anyone who cares to do, with any other copy of the Quran, be it in print or handwritten, from any place or period of time. They will be found identical'. (41)

It can now be proclaimed, through the evidences provided above, with full conviction and certainty that the Prophet memorized the entire Quran, had it written down in front of him through his scribes, many of his companions memorized the entire revelation and in turn possess their own private copies for recitation and contemplation. This process of dual preservation of the Quran in written and in the memory was carried in each subsequent generation till our time, without any deletion, interpolation or corruption of this Divine Book.

Sir Williams Muir states, " There is otherwise every security, internal and external, that we possess the text which Muhammad himself gave forth and used". (42)

Sir William Muir continues, "There is probably no other book in the world which has remained twelve centuries (now fourteen) with so pure a text". (43)

This divine protection provided to the Quran, the Last Reveled Guide to Humanity, is proclaimed by One God in the Quran:

We* (Allah) have, without doubt, send down the Message; and We will assuredly Guard it (from corruption)' (Quran - Chapter 15, Verse 9). *('We' is the plural of Majesty, and not the Christian plural of trinity)

Compare this divine and historical preservation of the Quran with any literature, be it religious or secular and it becomes evident that none possess similar miraculous protection. And as states earlier, a belief is as authentic as the authenticity of its scripture. And if any scripture is not preserved, how can we be certain that the belief arising out of this scripture is divine or man made, and if we are not sure about the belief itself, then our salvation in the hereafter would be jeopardized. Thus this above evidence for the protection of the Quran from any corruption is a strong hint about its divine origin. We request all open hearted persons to read, understand and live the Quran, the 'Manual for Mankind'.

[k82uae]

:wave:

[Wanderer]

I recall seeing a signed original Quran on ebay a few years back.

I wish I had thought to buy it.

[k82uae]

what do u think about the original book ? do u belive us or ....?

[sanwin25]

Nope.

You will have to try harder than that.

[Wanderer]

Originally posted by k82uae
what do u think about the original book ? do u belive us or ....?

I believe all current copies of the Quran, Holy book of Islam, may be alike.

However, it is most likely that some of the early teachings were lost and that there resides in the Quran passages which the Prophet never spoke.


"As-Suyuti (died 1505), one of the most famous and revered of the commentators of the Koran, quotes Ibn ‘Umar al Khattab as saying:

"Let no one of you say that he has acquired the entire Quran, for how does he know that it is all? Much of the Quran has been lost, thus let him say, ‘I have acquired of it what is available’" (As-Suyuti, Itqan, part 3, page 72).

A’isha, the favorite wife of the Prophet, says, also according to a tradition recounted by as-Suynti, "During the time of the Prophet, the chapter of the Parties used to be two hundred verses when read. When ‘Uthman edited the copies of the Quran, only the current (verses) were recorded" (73).

As-Suyuti also tells this story about Uba ibn Ka’b, one of the great companions of Muhammad:

This famous companion asked one of the Muslims, "How many verses in the chapter of the Parties?" He said, "Seventy-three verses." He (Uba) told him, "It used to be almost equal to the chapter of the Cow (about 286 verses) and included the verse of the stoning". The man asked, "What is the verse of the stoning?" He (Uba) said, "If an old man or woman committed adultery, stone them to death."

Sadly, "there was no single document collecting all the revelations, after Muhammad’s death in 632 C.E"

http://www.secularislam.org/research/origins.htm