From Raffee's signature:

"Feminism is the radical notion that women are people"


I would like to hear from you Raffee an explanation of the above quote..

what do you mean by femisinsts? whats their role? what are they upto? do we really need such movements?


I'm not aware of any feminist groups in Oman..

We do, however, have "Jam3iyat Al-Mar2a Al3omaniyya" ( Omani Woman Association), which basically ensures the wellfare of Omani women, in terms of health issues and also to improve social standards of women in Oman.. eg it aims to eradicate illitracy amongst Omani women.. and promotes and encourages vocational activities such as sewing/ craft work/ pottery/ etc..

would you consider the above some type of feminist organization?

This has potential.

i dont think there is a need for any feminism movement as they as i think have all rights and they are treated almost as men however keeping religion rules in mind!!

Originally posted by Bimzoori
promotes and encourages vocational activities such as sewing/ craft work/ pottery/ etc..

would you consider the above some type of feminist organization?

I certainly wouldn't! A feminist organization would encourage such vocational activities such as business administration, law, medicine, and fighter pilot training :)

:confused: ....... didnt get that ........:rolleyes:

Originally posted by MoonChild
I certainly wouldn't! A feminist organization would encourage such vocational activities such as business administration, law, medicine, and fighter pilot training :)

I think Bimmi didn't get the idea of feminism !!

But anyway ,,

Calling for their right and equality with men has nothing wrong in it ,as long as it doesn't interfer with Islam .

Originally posted by Bimzoori
From Raffee's signature:

"Feminism is the radical notion that women are people"


I would like to hear from you Raffee an explanation of the above quote..




Yipeeeee!!!! and we finally have a winner! Now this is what I call a topic, if I may say so myself.:p

Well there is sooooo much to cover Bimmi, but as you seem keen to know all about it, you might like to start with my interview thread where I talk about this very issue in some detail.

I would love to take the issue up in greater depth and detail here, if people are interested in knowing more about it.

Let me start by 'explaining' my signature:

"Feminism is the radical notion that women are people"...

Obviously, this statement is meant to act as an eye-opener to those who read it, and it has clearly served it's purpose, because, in essence it makes one question their own understanding of what feminism is, or at the very least provokes a questioning of it.

Clearly it is stated in a humourous almost sarcastic tone, purely because such a significant issue requires that people pay attention and make note of the plight of feminism in dismantling some of the pre-existing patriarchal concepts, structures and practices, rather than simply buying into the prevalent negative myths that surround 'feminism' world-wide, without question.

Hence, by making such a statement, one is immediately confronted with the reality of what feminism is in actuality.

It is an issue of equality, mutual respect and due recognition and consideration.

I will continue this soon...I have been asked to speak at two International Womens Day rallies to be held here in Sydney, so I am trying to balance preparing for those, with settling into a new house, health issues, AND keeping 3 children happy and healthy all at the one time, so pardon my delay in responding.

Anyways, I open the floor for some discussion to commence and for more questions to be asked, and I will attend to the rest of your questions soon.

Regards,

Raffee (the non-conformist postcolonial muslim socialist feminist);)

Raf, You just can't help yourself can you :) Every time you start talking about feminism, you go into "professor-speak" :p

Maha, what I meant was, an organization that helps women learn the traditional womanly arts is pretty traditional. A more feminist one would not perpetuate the old barriers (men are run businesses, are doctors, and do truly skilled labor, while women.... do pottery). Feminism... the "radical" notion that women are as smart and capable as men...

Does that make more sense?

Very strong words I must say. "Women are people" ! I wonder who says they are not ? Societies differ from one place to another but each gender plays its role accordingly. I have noticed where other members have stressed "as long as is acceptable to islam" but who says islam has stringent rules over feminism ? Islam does respect feminine,, otherwise who says the path to "jannat" is on the footmark of a ' mother '. Those who claim ' women are other than people ' owe us explanations.



______________________________

Do not ask what your country has done for you
But ask what have you done for your country


don't forget to test drive a : ' Peugeot, BMW or Lada '

Feminism is fighting for womens right. Giving women the opportunity to be anything they want. And to give them a chance to get out of this double standard system, where men think they RULE over women!:rolleyes:

I would love to take the issue up in greater depth and detail here, if people are interested in knowing more about it.

I'm listening! I love this. :D Please tell us more.

I have a question : How you can be a feminist without getting an "I hate men" reputation?

i think all married men would love equality with women cause at the moment we have no rights at home.
ladies take it easy on us.

Originally posted by runnin' around

I have a question : How you can be a feminist without getting an "I hate men" reputation?

Surround yourself with a better class of men.

Make it clear you only dislike stupid men, not all of them.

Originally posted by Bimzoori

what do you mean by femisinsts? whats their role? what are they upto? do we really need such movements?



Feminism is not a dirty word. A feminist is any person who advocates for the equal treatment/rights/opportunities/position of women. Beleive it or not there are even male feminists.:eek:

In other words, it is simply a word denoting equality of the genders.

What is their role?

To advocate and work towards the development and implementation of policies that ensure this equality in all spheres of society- in the workplace, home, education etc, which will in turn redefine existing societal biases or inequalities.

By making these changes, the long-term goal is to essentially improve the individual cultures from their roots, by empowering women, in order to better balance the gender dynamics, which will hopefully create a more comfortable and satisfying life for all.

What are they up to?

Well, its no conspiracy, and everything that is done by feminists, whether in terms of feminist theoretical writing, policy development, active advocacy in government and non-government departments, or addressing specific cases of domestic violence, rape, honour killings, unfavourable work conditions etc, ii is all done quite openly and often vocally.

Do we need such a movement?

A feminists' work will never be complete until these inequalities and abuses are eradicated completely, therefore the answer to this question is quite clear: YES, WE DO.;)

Originally posted by Bimzoori

I'm not aware of any feminist groups in Oman..

We do, however, have "Jam3iyat Al-Mar2a Al3omaniyya" ( Omani Woman Association), which basically ensures the wellfare of Omani women, in terms of health issues and also to improve social standards of women in Oman.. eg it aims to eradicate illitracy amongst Omani women.. and promotes and encourages vocational activities such as sewing/ craft work/ pottery/ etc..

would you consider the above some type of feminist organization?

Bimmi, any organisation that encourages the improvement, empowerment and education of women may be considered a feminist organisation, although as Moonie mentioned, this particular organisation would be so much better if it also offered wood-work, DIY home- improvements, driving, sky-diving and the likes, to demonstrate that women are capable (and more importantly SUPPORTED) in pursuing such activities.

Originally posted by Desert_Sloath
Very strong words I must say. "Women are people" ! I wonder who says they are not ? Societies differ from one place to another but each gender plays its role accordingly. I have noticed where other members have stressed "as long as is acceptable to islam" but who says islam has stringent rules over feminism ? Islam does respect feminine,, otherwise who says the path to "jannat" is on the footmark of a ' mother '. Those who claim ' women are other than people ' owe us explanations.





I was going to get to that point DS. Islam DOES encourage equality of the genders, which is why I comfortably claim to be a Muslim Feminist. Sadly, however, the reality is that often Islam is misinterpreted/manipulated to perpetuate the CULTURAL patriarchal agendas of various societies.

Having said that, I dont think this is only a symptom of predominantly Islamic cultures; I think its a global pandemic. I have yet to find a culture that can honestly claim to be gender-neutral, that is, a non-patriarchal/non-matriarchal culture (there are a handful of cultures where women tend to dominate)... but that is not the feminist objective. Feminism rallies for EQUALITY.

Originally posted by runnin' around
I'm listening! I love this. :D Please tell us more.

I have a question : How you can be a feminist without getting an "I hate men" reputation?

Wanderer gave a nice answer. :rolleyes:

It is all about who you surround yourself with. Oh, and keep on disproving those many stereotypes about feminists (I'm assuming you are a feminist too) by behaving not as a man-fater, but a people-lover.:kewl:

Let us unpack some of the general misconceptions and stereotypes that have plagued feminism to varying degrees over the course of its existence.

Ok, Im stepping off my soapbox now.

Here it is in pidgin english for beginner feminists.:p

*Feminism is NOT about declaring female superiority (even if it is true in many cases :rolleyes: )

*It is NOT about hating men. (Personally, I think men are grand... when you can convince them to be)

*It is NOT about any specific sexuality (it is not a movement reserved for lesbians only...I'm living proof of that.:D)

* It is NOT an outdated phenomena. Despite the achievements brought about by feminist rhetoric thus far, there is still far to go.

* It is NOT about hairy braless women, but about having the choice to be without concern of condemnation by the wider society.

*It is NOT about belittling/trivialising 'traditional' female roles, but about having the CHOICE to be a housewife or a career woman or both!

*It is NOT a selling out from good old family values. You can still have kids, cook, do dishes and iron his shirts if you so please, but NOT because you must to validate for 'woman' status.

*It IS about choice.

*It IS about empowerment.

*It IS about equal opportunities.

*It IS about respect.

*It IS about being appreciated REGARDLESS of gender.

Bored yet?

Originally posted by raffee


Islam DOES encourage equality of the genders, which is why I comfortably claim to be a Muslim Feminist.




This approach sounds good and promising for our society i should say. It is a healthy social phenomena. But may i clear my mind with the following questions :

1) Are you Omani ?

2) Are you intending to return home to persue yr career ? If so will you take this approach as yr desire to modernise and achieve a "satisfying life for all" bearing in mind that our educated male segment of society is already accommodating female participation in daily life ? I notice the earlier male sensitivity towards sharring place of work with female, in Omani society, is deminishing.

3) I believe you are an arab lady so, could you name at least two arab countries that have achieved feminism desired aim ? then give at leat three Islamic countries where this is so ?

Thank you

____________________________________


Do not ask what your country has done for you
But ask what have you done for your country


don't forget to test drive a : ' Peugeot, BMW or Lada '

Originally posted by raffee

*It is NOT about belittling/trivialising 'traditional' female roles, but about having the CHOICE to be a housewife or a career woman or both!

*It IS about equal opportunities.



I see the first continuing to be a problem. It is not that rare still to find women who have achieved advanced placement - in education, politics, business, to look down on those women who choose to focus on their children and be homemakers at some point in their lives - perhaps to later pursue a career outside the home. Also, one needn't have to change their car's oil or mow the lawn to be a feminist, just know that those tasks are on the table when it comes time to determine who gets what tasks.

Equality would seem more of a goal if the very same Feminists
argued for "best parent" custody rather than ignore the child custody hurdle that many men face in the US. It is one of those nasty facts that while argueing for advancement on some issues, we often conveniently overlook those places where we still hold an advantage.

Originally posted by Desert_Sloath
This approach sounds good and promising for our society i should say. It is a healthy social phenomena. But may i clear my mind with the following questions :

1) Are you Omani ?

2) Are you intending to return home to persue yr career ? If so will you take this approach as yr desire to modernise and achieve a "satisfying life for all" bearing in mind that our educated male segment of society is already accommodating female participation in daily life ? I notice the earlier male sensitivity towards sharring place of work with female, in Omani society, is deminishing.

3) I believe you are an arab lady so, could you name at least two arab countries that have achieved feminism desired aim ? then give at leat three Islamic countries where this is so ?

Thank you



DS,

No, I am not Omani, nor was I raised in an Arab country. I was born in Syria but was raised in Australia.

I would have no problem going to Syria, or Lebanon or Oman for that matter to work (although I only call Australia 'home'), and I would be just as active in educating people from all levels about the issues of feminism, even if it requires that I simply left out the actual term 'feminism' until such time as they were more comfortable with it as a concept.

I know that the same sort of issues regarding gender inequalities are present in all countries, although they are to varying severities.

The issue is exactly that DS. Why should it be that 'men are ACCOMODATING female participation in daily life?'?? It is still therefore a patriarchal society that necessitates for the 'accomodation' for women BY men, is it not?

Therefore our work is far from over, not only in the West, but in all nations and societies.

To answer your last question DS, from what I have seen in this forum, I would say that Oman is probably more progressive in terms of achieving feminist aims than countries like Saudi Arabia, where women are still not permitted to drive!!!!

Lebanon, Syria and the UAE are other countries that are also making better headway in terms of educating the population about the importance of women's rights than say Jordan, but there is still far to go.

For example, there are few if any support structures in place for divorced women who want to keep their children; thus, they are often forced to give up custody of their children to the father, which is so sad particularly when the children are still in infancy.

Another example is the stigma attached to 'divorced' women. It is often considered almost shameful for an unmarried man to marry a divorced woman, even more so if she has children, and this is indicative of a problem in the actual culture that demeans women in such predicaments, and this clearly must change, but will only change as a result of a restructuring of the culture from its core through education, discussion and even policy formation.

While these types of inadequacies remain to be rampant, there will continue to be a need for reform.

I hope this answers your questions DS. :)

Another example is the stigma attached to 'divorced' women. It is often considered almost shameful for an unmarried man to marry a divorced woman, even more so if she has children, and this is indicative of a problem in the actual culture that demeans women in such predicaments, and this clearly must change, but will only change as a result of a restructuring of the culture from its core through education, discussion and even policy formation.

Very True, not many are willing to interact with let alone marry a divorced woman in our society. it's like she commited some sort of sin or something cause she "wasnt able to keep her man".

all this needs to be changed as everyone deserves a second chance.

The truth is, I havent the knowledge of anything that has anything to do with such movements, but... surprisingly, I found a question to ask :P:
Ok... We all know how the society looks at men who smoke in a more merciful way than women who smoke....You know how it's considered "cool" to smoke when it comes to guys,and disgusting and very offensive to girls. I think that's good in a way (when it comes to a girl obviously). Girls are not allowed to smoke, because it is simply a "guys" thing according to our cultures.. This is from what I can see! (I am not going to talk about guys and smoking, thats a different issue).
Well... I stay in the UK, and before the 1960s more men used to smoke than women. However,nowadays the number of female smokers is Higher than the number of male smokers!!
It is beleived that females in the uk have more choices than women in Arabic countries, and that they have more freedom. Was this an advantage or a disadvantage for a women to make her own choices and to choose to be a chimeney after beleiving that being a chimney = feedom , just after seeing men ( who were thought to be more dominant) helping London become this Misty, Foggy place!
Obviously, this i an exaguration, but I am trying to make a point :P.

I honestly think that women have always been strong, and whoever underestimate their power, must be short-sighted. A man can never be a man without a women... all the things that make men apear more powerful must come from women( somehow...again, this is another issue). So, I don't understand how can women who make men have that dominating apearance be thought of as being weak!! A women doesnt have to climb a mountain to say that she is strong, and doesnt need to dig the ground to apear more powerful. Women are different from men, and are powerful/clever/better/smarter in many things than men, but on the other hand, men are better in what they are better at. Men can never be women, and can never know and do what women can do, can never think the way women think...obviously, men would beleive that they are smarter than women, because they simply couldn't reach that level of thinking... and vice versa.

I dont understand why "women" are the issue in this world...never heard of a man who was talked about in this way, or part of such a topic... as far as I beleive, organisations help minorities.... women? Minorities?!

We can't deny the difference, we cant deny the difference in chromosomes. Women and men are different.... ( funny how women have more genes than men...not functionaly, whatever!). The point i am trying to make is, a spoon is different than a fork, but they are all useful, used in different things :PPPPPP ( Too much for trying to proove a point).
I better stop writing, cos this is starting to sound funny now :P

Originally posted by Azraq

I dont understand why "women" are the issue in this world...never heard of a man who was talked about in this way, or part of such a topic... as far as I beleive, organisations help minorities.... women? Minorities?!


Because, as you have mentioned above, women are labled as weak, men say we CAN'T do the things they do, that we are better off in a kitchen baking bread (and then some even have the NERVE to come and say men are better bakers/chefs!!).

Obviously women want to prove that they are just as good as men, and even better than them at some things. They want to be recognized for all they do and are capable of.

Men are not the issue (someday they will be though lol) because no one has ever thought to degrade them as it has been done to women. :rolleyes: