As every doctor knows, the real secret to fighting disease is prevention first, then medicine to stop the infection, then preventing recurrence.

Terrorism is a disease - what can we do about it? We have failed to prevent it, but even if Bush's War On Terror succeeds in destroying the terror networks ability to function effectively in the short term, without examining the roots of the problem and solving those, recurrence is certain.

I am studying this right now and would like your ideas and resources (must be in english please or include a translation, sorry).

For instance, Osama bin Laden declared war on US using terrorist tactics in anger over permanent US military bases in KSA (at the invitation of the KSA govt). If US forces withdrew, would he stop his attacks on US and other civilian targets? I think this is a particular difficult problem from the "prevention" standpoint as Osama himself was glad of US aid when he was fighting Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, and KSA asked for US aid in fighting Iraq forces. so we are invited in, but then hated - why is that, and how can it be avoided in responding to future requests for assistance?

What would it take?

nice question Moonchild..

however... before anyone can attept to cure the disease, we have to identfy it first...

in this case you are talking about terrorism..

how would you define terrorism?

w/ the current situation, it would be difficult to have two people agree on a single definition for terrorism..

eg:for most Arabs/Muslims, whats happening in phalastine is terrorism desplayed in its worst forms.. the US boming of Afhghanistan was also terorism..if Bush hits Iraq that will be terrorism... would you agree with that?!

so lets first decide on a precise definition for the term "terrorism", before we go any further..

I had approached my question with the idea that "terrorism" is the targeting of civilians for acts of violence, and "war" is the targeting of armies or government entities. Now that you've raised the question, however, I'm reminded that, during war, civilians are frequently targeted in addition to armies (for instance, when the Huns swept through asia and europe, they killed everyone in their path - was this terrorism? Hitler bombed the c*r*a*p out of English cities, we returned the favor by leveling several German cities. etc etc etc).

I think the modern western definition of terrorism is acts where the primary purpose is the achievement of a political goal through instilling fear (particularly by targeting civilians for violence), usually perpetrated by individuals not obviously affiliated with an army or government.

but now I'm wondering - do we need to agree on a definition of terrorism? What we are really interested in is

"what are the barriers to lasting peace?"

If you want your discussion to include calling American/UN activity terrorism, that's fine. In fact, it may be an important part of the solution to have that perception recognized by the west.

I agree with but why America does not talk about Israel terrorism. Or they are over the law and UN .Why America does not start with Israel?
I’m wondering why you do not mention Israel.

Originally posted by face_off
I’m wondering why you do not mention Israel.

I was just starting out with the question. I have some guesses as to what will be suggested, but I don't want to prejudice the discussion with them.

I'm assuming that a change in both how Israel behaves AND how US interacts with Israel will be part of the arabic response... but am waiting with open mind to hear what that is from you :)

Maybe if we have fruitful discussion I will forward our suggestions to Pres. Bush :cool:

SO who made Osama ,,is it USA ??

COZ you didn't support him against the Soviet for the sake of it ,,that was coz of ur interest and to be the only police man in the world !!

Originally posted by Navigator
SO who made Osama ,,is it USA ??

COZ you didn't support him against the Soviet for the sake of it ,,that was coz of ur interest and to be the only police man in the world !!

This thread is not to make accusations or place blame for it's own sake, but please, only in the context of understanding the current situation and possible solutions.

Yes, the US supported Osama at least in large part (if not entirely) because he was resisting USSR. I don't think in anyone's wildest dreams we thought the USSR would simply collapse and disappear, at the time it was a struggle just to maintain the balance of power.

I'd like to know (1) if you think it was a mistake for US and the rest of the "western" countries to support those who were resisting USSR and/or USSR-backed communist take-overs.

(2) If it was a mistake, was it preferable to allow Soviet and communist take-over of governments (USSR made no secret of it's imperialist intentions), including that of Afghanistan?

(3) At what point of US involvement (in your opinion) would Osama have continued to be a grateful consumer of US training and armament?

(4) Since the past has already occurred and cannot be changed, how do we move forward towards peace (accepting each other and their place in the world) rather than uneasy truce?

I'm sure I'll think of more questions for you but the fire alarm in our building is going off :)

Originally posted by MoonChild


Maybe if we have fruitful discussion I will forward our suggestions to Pres. Bush :cool:

Tell him the following and everybody will be in peace:

1. Take out US forces from the Gulf now.
2. Leave arab oil alone.
3. Stop helping Israel.
4. Don't control UN.
5. Leave Saddam alone.
6. And finally concentrate on American people (like you MoonChild) demands, reduce tax, provide jobs to homeless americans, etc.

O yeah ice tea.... human rights in USA also might help in filling his empty "To Do" List.
Fix ur self, then help others :wink:

Zionist armies killing civilians and demolishing houses = Defence :duh:

People defending them selves against ARMIES = Terror :duh:

Evilio, I'm eagerly awaiting your constructive comments and answers to my questions.

Geez, 6 responses and only ONE of them is at all constructive. Stop complaining and tossing out one-liners and start THINKING!!!!!!

Originally posted by IceTea
2. Leave arab oil alone.


You might just want to review how Arab states use oil. My understanding is that they sell it and use the money to create jobs for people like you.

You might just want to review how Arab states use oil. My understanding is that they sell it and use the money to create jobs for people like you.

Somehow true !!



I'd like to know (1) if you think it was a mistake for US and the rest of the "western" countries to support those who were resisting USSR and/or USSR-backed communist take-overs.

We can't determine wether it was a mistake or not !!
But from personal point of view ,,and from what i see in double standard treatment towards the midle east by the United States,,i would say it was a mistake ,there's 50 - 50 chance of different case than the current one !!i mean might if it didn't happen and no body supported the anti USSR in Afghan or else where ,who know they might would ve been much nicer to arabs than US and would ve been abit fairer regarding the Israeli -Palasinian conflict !!

(2) If it was a mistake, was it preferable to allow Soviet and communist take-over of governments (USSR made no secret of it's imperialist intentions), including that of Afghanistan?

Well,,, it might gonna end up the same ,,and just remove the the last 2 letters from USSR !!
Being in this misrable situation makes you think that nothing worse could happen !!

(4) Since the past has already occurred and cannot be changed, how do we move forward towards peace (accepting each other and their place in the world) rather than uneasy truce?

Well,,it might be abit hard for US ,,but it's simple , when the US deal with the Middle East case with fair , no double standard !!
You sometimes it gets me wondering ,,who is controling who ?!!
I guess Israel is controling the US !!

Originally posted by Navigator

I guess Israel is controling the US !!

Then explain the pork industry.

"Today’s U.S. pork industry is experiencing phenomenal growth as it continues to meet worldwide consumer demand for what has become the most popular meat products. The key to this growth is the American pork producer, who continues to incorporate high-quality standards into every level of his or her business.

Pork production in the United States is a vital part of the economy. Nearly 19 billion pounds were processed from about 97 million hogs in 2001. The economic impact of the industry on rural America is immense. Annual farm sales typically exceed $11 billion, while the retail value of pork sold to consumers reaches $38 billion each year.

Pork also provides employment well beyond the farm. The U.S. pork industry is responsible for over $72 billion in total domestic economic activity. In addition, the pork industry supports over 800,000 jobs and adds over $27 billion of value to basic production inputs such as corn and soybeans.

There are approximately 85,760 pork operations today compared to nearly three million in the 1950s. Farms have grown in size; nearly 80 percent of the hogs are grown on farms, which produce 5,000 or more hogs per year"

source: http://www.nppc.org/about/pork_today.html

I mean, would a Muslim-controlled country have such a large pork industry. Well, Jews don't want to have anything to do with pork either.

Assertion investigated and dismissed.

We are not fighting each other people we have to think more deeply. We have to stop thinking about oil .yes we have oil and each country has the right to talk about her oil so please stop using this silly word (our oil). It’s better if we think how to development our economy and reach Japan or USA level. And also start to talk with American people and explain Islam for them let them feel how is our religion is great let them feel that we heat people like bin laden or saddam or any one killed civilian with out reason. I used to live in USA and really they are kinds people so we have to understand them and we should work hard to convince then that we are friendly people. And we can live together.

In the end I have some pinots
1. If America keep flowing Israel and does not force them she will loss.
2. Saddam is really bad leader.
3. Bin ladan is mad man.
4. Bush is sick man

Originally posted by IceTea
Tell him the following and everybody will be in peace:

1. Take out US forces from the Gulf now.
2. Leave arab oil alone.
3. Stop helping Israel.
4. Don't control UN.
5. Leave Saddam alone.
6. And finally concentrate on American people (like you MoonChild) demands, reduce tax, provide jobs to homeless americans, etc.

I guess writing this hurt Icey's brain so much that he had to take a break! :D Maybe someone else will jump in and comment on his suggestions, here are my comments/questions to his points.

1. I take this to mean withdraw from all countries in the gulf region, even in areas where we were invited by the govt of those countries. Should we also refuse future requests from gulf countries for assistance? Should it also include removing our assistance in areas such as Somalia, Bosnia etc. where US army has been helping to prevent the Christians and Muslims from slaughtering one another, and helping guard emergency relief food and medicine fomr theft by bandits, rebels, and corrupt govt forces?

2. "Leave Arab oil alone" - does this mean stop buying arab oil? Is anyone concerned about what this will do to gulf region economies?

4. Please elaborate and define "controL". Current deadlock between the 5 veto-power countries demonstrates lack of US control over UN. Also, I assume any voluntary withdrawal of "control" (yet to be defined) would be accompanied by proportional withdrawal of funds (US pays for largest portion of UN treasury, currently).

5. Can this be codified in a treaty, we leave Saddam alone and he promises not to either directly attack US interests OR provide weapons for funding for entities that attack US interests and citizens?


# 3 & #6, no questions :)

Originally posted by face_off
And also start to talk with American people and explain Islam for them let them feel how is our religion is great let them feel that we heat people like bin laden or saddam or any one killed civilian with out reason.
it is true that we hate anyone killed civilian with no obvious reason ,,

but with those 2 names in italics above ,, u have to re-think be4 u say such ,,

Originally posted by Navigator
what i see in double standard treatment towards the midle east by the United States,,


Please elaborate, how is there a double standard?

who know they might would ve been much nicer to arabs than US

Well, take a look at how the other countries who were conquered by the USSR fared, that's pretty much how Afghanistan would likely be treated.
I'll try to find some resources for you to read, but as a start, how is Chechnya faring these days?

and would ve been abit fairer regarding the Israeli -Palasinian conflict !!

Interesting proposition, can you provide sources to support?

Well,,, it might gonna end up the same ,,and just remove the the last 2 letters from USSR !!

what a silly statement.

Originally posted by face_off
1. If America keep flowing Israel and does not force them she will loss.
2. Saddam is really bad leader.
3. Bin ladan is mad man.
4. Bush is sick man

I'm sorry, can you rephrase #1? does not force them to what?

What do you think should be done about Saddam, Bin laden, and Bush?

Navy boy, you are an admirer and supporter of Osama bin Laden. Can you tell me which actions of his you support? do you believe he was behind the 1st WTC bombing, the attack on the USS Cole, the various US embassy bombings, and the 9/11 WTC attack using commercial airliners? Do you support those actions, and why?

If you DON'T believe he was involved in these things, what has he done to win your admiration?

I'd really like to understand, I know he is seen by some as sort of folk hero but I don't know why.

Originally posted by MoonChild
I'm sorry, can you rephrase #1? does not force them to what?

What do you think should be done about Saddam, Bin laden, and Bush?

I mean America should force Israel to respect the UN. And stop supporting them by money and weapons that made in USA to killed Palestine people we still remember what happen in Lebanon when they killed children and woman with out any reason
& No one can ask or stop Israel or blame them.
Is that fear dear?

Originally posted by face_off
I mean Aramaic should force Israel to respect the UN. And stop supporting them by money and weapons that made in USA ?

Aramaic? I assume you mean American. Aramaic is the language spoken by Jesus and contemporaries...

I agree with you that if US is going to be the primary military force to enforce UN resolutions, then we should enforce all of them. (this is just my personal opinion).
Of course, then one has to trust that the UN resolutions are appropriate. I think US (and any country) should have the right NOT to be the primary military force (or financier) of UN operations that it opposes.

I prefer a market system where they actually PAY for any weapons :rolleyes: I'm not sure what the politics of arms manufacturers are - I think they are private companies, not owned by the government, but obviously the govt. has a say in who they sell to (I fervently hope we are not selling arms to Columbian drug lords or Cambodia, for instance).

we still remember what happen in Lebanon when they killed children and woman with out any reason & No one can ask or stop Israel or blame them.
Is that fear dear?

I'm trying to sort out your logic here. Are you saying that the combined might, will, and oil $$ of all the arab states are cowering in fear of Israel, so that they cannot even "ask, stop, or blame" them for anything they do? Why is that?

I agree with you that US should immediately stop all aid to Israel. I think the extortion game that Sharon is playing is ridiculous, and it's starting to get more and more attention from Americans.

Question for you about Israel - will the Arab world accept Israel as a nation to remain within current UN- defined borders, with the authority to defend themselves from the occassional fanatic who won't be satisfied until Israel is wiped off the map? Suitable punishment for venturing beyond it's borders, of course :)

Originally posted by MoonChild
Navy boy, you are an admirer and supporter of Osama bin Laden. Can you tell me which actions of his you support? do you believe he was behind the 1st WTC bombing, the attack on the USS Cole, the various US embassy bombings, and the 9/11 WTC attack using commercial airliners? Do you support those actions, and why?

If you DON'T believe he was involved in these things, what has he done to win your admiration?

I'd really like to understand, I know he is seen by some as sort of folk hero but I don't know why.

dear Moony ,, when I say I like Saddam or Osama,,it is not necessary that I like the things they done . I like them as leaders & like them when stand against the $$ ..

I don't care who done the actions u talked about ,,, coz it may be any angry person who hates the $ ...

I don't suport those actions but maybe ppl who done it found them suitable for their needs ...& it maybe was a way of delivering a msg but in crazy way ..

it is nice to see a real muslim standing with the truth ,whatever it may cause him

coz what is happening now everyone is afraid of his personal buisness ..

for Example ,,some ppl likes Hitler not coz he done nasty things to english ppl ,, it is just his leadership
u could say that if someone do crazy things ,,he will be liked by ppl coz he did what they couldn't do ,,

I hope it is a clear answer with broken grammer & wrong spelling english words

Navy,,,

Please elaborate, how is there a double standard?

do you really need an elaboration ?!!!

Could you tell me why US used Veto to stop the UN accusing Israel for what they did in Qanna Massacre ?

Originally posted by Navigator
do you really need an elaboration ?!!!

Could you tell me why US used Vito to stop the UN accusing Israel for what they did in Qanna Massacre ?

Bare with me, I'm still learning about this stuff. It's not easy picking out facts from hyperbole sometimes. one side claims massacre, the other side says it never happened etc. Heck, we've got folks claiming the Holocaust never happened and there are mountains of documents and photos for that!

Also, the possibilities of areas of US double-standard are endless ;)

"what are the barriers to lasting peace?"

That question attracted my attention Moonchild.
We if you want an answer from a general point of view Iam more than happy to share my thoughts.
Now if you want me to answer your question from our point of view I think we will be going round and round circle whereby it would be a waste of time as both of our beliefs is different.
Let us talk in general of what are the barriers?

I believe that the world has become a small village, nothing is hidden anymore and no one could be fooled no more. Courage of stating the faults of a human or a lobby or a government is essential .To make a mistake and openly admit to the public specially if their matters and fate is in your hand is a great act. But to fool and paint a different picture whereby the best of Speaker or media tries to cover up the mess .. Now that show the incapability of a leadership and leads to unrest situation and effect the relation with the people and the neighboring countries and friends.

No one has the right to force or demand any human of how to live or to follow .Humans in nature are rebellious and cannot be pressured ..We should use all means of diplomacy and choice of words as we know a word effect could be more fatal than a gunshot.


Third, Fairness of treatment .. You cannot leave a problem unsolved and move to another one as your plate will be full of it and at the end you may act foolish and hasty.

Fourth, Respect people's culture and history and religion and deal with them the best way you can.

Fifth, Never underestimate or belittle an issue and say this could be solved later as its petty.

6th, as we Arabs says, " To fix a problem look into your self " Education is a key factor for all nation as if there aren’t any it is very difficult to state your message.

Those are good general principles :)

However I disagree with you that there is no point in discussing it from "your" point of view, as any practical solution HAS to take into account the different beliefs and perceptions.

Eventually, specific action has to be taken, and for action to be meaningful it has to satisfy cultures that are in some ways vastly different, so to discuss them is not only not a "waste of time", it is the core of a solution. Not to convince the other that you are RIGHT, but to understand what needs must be satisfied for action to be acceptable for all parties.

First, thanks for your response :)

Originally posted by Navy_boy
I don't care who done the actions u talked about ,,, coz it may be any angry person who hates the $ ...

I don't suport those actions but maybe ppl who done it found them suitable for their needs ...& it maybe was a way of delivering a msg but in crazy way ..

But if he IS responsible for these things, doesn't that impact whether he is an admirable person - you say you don't support the actions and it was "crazy", but I don't see how you could admire the person who does them.

I understand admiring the "little guy" who stands up for what he believes in, in English we call it "rooting for the underdog" - wanting the person you expect to lose, to win. But while I admire the 'underdog" who wins in a fair fight, like boxers or football teams, or even the skinny little guy who fights off the thug who tries to steal his wallet. I can only call someone who has millions of $$ and uses bombs and airplanes to kill people who have never heard of him, that he never sees, and in fact he sends teenage boys to do the dirty work while he stays safely away from any real danger... well, that is a bully.

it is nice to see a real muslim standing with the truth ,whatever it may cause him

I understand that concept too... it's very romantic. I just don't see how it applies to him! Would a real muslim fight jihad by killing women and children? What truth is he standing for? We hear that he declared war on Americans- wherever they may be, no matter they be soldier or civilian, young or old - because he is angry over military bases in KSA. OK, he could work with the KSA govt to convince them it is a bad idea, or he could choose to attack the military (but don't whine when we fight back!) - but that wasn't his choice.

I'd like to hear your views, please. What truth is he standing up for, and has the hardship he is suffering been caused by anything other engaging in a type of "warfare" that the whole world (including most muslims) condemned?

Do you think maybe it's a case of the Arab world taking whatever hero's it can get, and there just aren't any particularly good heros out there? I know that King Abdullah II of Jordan doesn't cut the adventurous, romantic figure that OBL does, but what do you think of him in general and as a role model? (although he looks pretty fine riding his motorcycle, and married one of the smartest, most beautiful women in the world ;) )


Maybe this is wandering from the topic a bit, but I think it's important to gain understanding of each "side" so that actions are meaningful...